View Full Version : Have We All Been Harsh on Pagan? MUST READ!
Bentick's My Man.
16 Jul 2007, 20:13
Just chatting with a few mates today and they seem to think he has done a reasonable job with what he has had and we are now looking to go in the right track.
I have to admit I was almost moved to thinking we have been harsh on Denis Pagan.
I know there are minimal Pagan supporters left and he will most probably go at the end of 2007 but...
He came to the club in its biggest time of on and off field turmoil.
We won our first wooden spoon in our VERY, VERY proud history in 2002 under Brittain.
We lost 2 years worth of first and second round draft picks and noone can argue how important they are which forced us to hope with late round picks which we knew would have a high certainty of not making it.
The drafting and player management under Parkin and Brittain left us with no older generation players except Koutoufides, Whitnall, Camporeale (now gone) & Lappin and it left us with minimal players in the 110-190 game players like Houlihan.
Pagan under those circumstances had to look for experience elsewhere for the 2004 season with players like Morrell, Teague, Johnston, Harford, D. Johnson, Bannister etc. which proved a good 1 season quick fix giving us 11 wins and still giving experience to a lot of younger players.
Pagan later admitted to the situation of 2004 to be undesirable but he had no choice but to recruit older with just a pure lack of numbers in our squad ready for AFL football.
We now with a few years back in the draft have recruited players like Murphy (no.1), Kennedy (no.4), Gibbs (no. 1). And he has succeded in attempting to get some experienced players in our mix like Stevens & Scotland.
Players Pagan has mentored in the 50-100 game bracket are now starting to blossom such as Carrazzo, Walker, Simpson, Waite & Fisher and they will continue to get better with more time and they need to become the core group of 110-190 game players for our next generation with Stevens, Scotland & Houlihan in our veteran class. Both of those generations we are bare in our list of today!
Even though everyone has gone past the point of return for Pagan, take these facts on board and try and refocus your message to be fair.
I know these fact have changed my opinion!
The fault is not on Pagan!
Blame Elliot, Parkin, Brittain and recruiting staff from 1997-2001!
Whoever coaches us from 2008-2012 will see a better record than 2003-2007 including..
Yes, your man, Denis Pagan
Give me your thoughts. Be clear, fair and state full reasons not just the typical "Sack Pagan, he doesn't know how to coach!"
lily of laguna
16 Jul 2007, 20:16
Just chatting with a few mates today and they seem to think he has done a reasonable job with what he has had and we are now looking to go in the right track.
I have to admit I was almost moved to thinking we have been harsh on Denis Pagan.
I know there are minimal Pagan supporters left and he will most probably go at the end of 2007 but...
He came to the club in its biggest time of on and off field turmoil.
We won our first wooden spoon in our VERY, VERY proud history in 2002 under Brittain.
We lost 2 years worth of first and second round draft picks and noone can argue how important they are which forced us to hope with late round picks which we knew would have a high certainty of not making it.
The drafting and player management under Parkin and Brittain left us with no older generation players except Koutoufides, Whitnall, Camporeale (now gone) & Lappin and it left us with minimal players in the 110-190 game players like Houlihan.
Pagan under those circumstances had to look for experience elsewhere for the 2004 season with players like Morrell, Teague, Johnston, Harford, D. Johnson, Bannister etc. which proved a good 1 season quick fix giving us 11 wins and still giving experience to a lot of younger players.
Pagan later admitted to the situation of 2004 to be undesirable but he had no choice but to recruit older with just a pure lack of numbers in our squad ready for AFL football.
We now with a few years back in the draft have recruited players like Murphy (no.1), Kennedy (no.4), Gibbs (no. 1). And he has succeded in attempting to get some experienced players in our mix like Stevens & Scotland.
Players Pagan has mentored in the 50-100 game bracket are now starting to blossom such as Carrazzo, Walker, Simpson, Waite & Fisher and they will continue to get better with more time and they need to become the core group of 110-190 game players for our next generation with Stevens, Scotland & Houlihan in our veteran class. Both of those generations we are bare in our list of today!
Even though everyone has gone past the point of return for Pagan, take these facts on board and try and refocus your message to be fair.
I know these fact have changed my opinion!
The fault is not on Pagan!
Blame Elliot, Parkin, Brittain and recruiting staff from 1997-2001!
Whoever coaches us from 2008-2012 will see a better record than 2003-2007 including..
Yes, your man, Denis Pagan
Give me your thoughts. Be clear, fair and state full reasons not just the typical "Sack Pagan, he doesn't know how to coach!"
This debate has been going pretty solidly on about 4 other threads for days, why start a new one???
Bentick's My Man.
16 Jul 2007, 20:21
This debate has been going pretty solidly on about 4 other threads for days, why start a new one???
If you read, I ask for replies of people who aren't just Pagan-Bashing for no reason.
All I read on the other posts are
"He has no tactics"
"He drafts bad"
"Same thing over again"
I want people to reply on this thread in detail why they think this and not just constant people asking for his head in brief.
If you wanna just blurt out random two line dribble about getting rid of him go do it in the Pagan Haters threads
thylacine60
16 Jul 2007, 20:24
Because when someone has something they want everyone to read, they don't feel inclined to tack it onto the end of 6 pages of other stuff regardless of the subject matter. That's why there will always be repeat threads.
It's true though, this thread is seriously repetitive and even the "blame Brittain and Parkin" stuff has been given a going over.
lily of laguna
16 Jul 2007, 20:25
If you read, I ask for replies of people who aren't just Pagan-Bashing for no reason.
All I read on the other posts are
"He has no tactics"
"He drafts bad"
"Same thing over again"
I want people to reply on this thread in detail why they think this and not just constant people asking for his head in brief.
If you wanna just blurt out random two line dribble about getting rid of him go do it in the Pagan Haters threads
If its two line dribble, why dont you bring some reasoned, well thought out, debate to those threads, rather than start a new one??
All I can say is I and many many others were Pagan backers as little as 6-8 weeks ago.
Finally something clicks and you begin to realise that fair enough it's not 100% Pagan, BUT things need to change, something new is needed. And we have a new president and fairly new coaching assisants etc, so time to try a new coach.
I don't think half us anti Pagan people, dislike him. We understand the circumstances he's coached us under, but I personally feel that the demise he was left with when he started has now submerged him too much and he can't get himself out of it.
Best for both parties to part ways now.
thylacine60
16 Jul 2007, 20:35
Who the hell puts "MUST READ" into their thread title? Who do you think you are, Caro?
You overlook the fact that we actually had a middle rung of players following the 2002 season - pagan removed them only to figure out a year later that some hardened bodies were necessary and went for recycles in 2004.
The common defence of pagan's coaching is that it would have been impossible for another coach to have done better - My question is what coach would have done worse? Compare the onfield performances of 2002 (a year in which we were injury ravaged) with that of 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2007.
As a team, we havent progressed one iota. The list has improved somewhat due to accumulation of early picks but that is all. ANY coach can accumulate early draft picks. The team has not improved, and arguably, has gone backwards.
The coach is responsible for the performance of the players - of all the players that have been on our list since pagan has gotten here, how many have consistently performed to their abilities? I'm not talking potential, I'm talking ability that they have demonstrated on field.
If a coach is unable to consistently get the best out of his players then he shouldnt be retained as coach.
Also on team selection - the entire mindset seems wrong.
Fev was disciplined several years too late.
Betts/Bentick are continually retained for their tackling/defensive pressure at the expense of other players who can actually win the ball and hurt the opposition going the other way.
To go with that, most of our kids are given defensive assignments rather than being allowed to develop to their strengths, utilise their flair.
Bench rotations are poor
Set play tactics are non existent
Very few young players are shown much faith when promoted initially.
bLuEbOy1984
16 Jul 2007, 20:47
PAGAN is still our man.. and i dont think we could do a hell of alot better than what he has done...i really hope he stays next year
Jimthegreat
16 Jul 2007, 21:00
Just chatting with a few mates today and they seem to think he has done a reasonable job with what he has had and we are now looking to go in the right track.
I have to admit I was almost moved to thinking we have been harsh on Denis Pagan.
I know there are minimal Pagan supporters left and he will most probably go at the end of 2007 but...
He came to the club in its biggest time of on and off field turmoil.
We won our first wooden spoon in our VERY, VERY proud history in 2002 under Brittain.
We lost 2 years worth of first and second round draft picks and noone can argue how important they are which forced us to hope with late round picks which we knew would have a high certainty of not making it.
The drafting and player management under Parkin and Brittain left us with no older generation players except Koutoufides, Whitnall, Camporeale (now gone) & Lappin and it left us with minimal players in the 110-190 game players like Houlihan.
Pagan under those circumstances had to look for experience elsewhere for the 2004 season with players like Morrell, Teague, Johnston, Harford, D. Johnson, Bannister etc. which proved a good 1 season quick fix giving us 11 wins and still giving experience to a lot of younger players.
Pagan later admitted to the situation of 2004 to be undesirable but he had no choice but to recruit older with just a pure lack of numbers in our squad ready for AFL football.
We now with a few years back in the draft have recruited players like Murphy (no.1), Kennedy (no.4), Gibbs (no. 1). And he has succeded in attempting to get some experienced players in our mix like Stevens & Scotland.
Players Pagan has mentored in the 50-100 game bracket are now starting to blossom such as Carrazzo, Walker, Simpson, Waite & Fisher and they will continue to get better with more time and they need to become the core group of 110-190 game players for our next generation with Stevens, Scotland & Houlihan in our veteran class. Both of those generations we are bare in our list of today!
Even though everyone has gone past the point of return for Pagan, take these facts on board and try and refocus your message to be fair.
I know these fact have changed my opinion!
The fault is not on Pagan!
Blame Elliot, Parkin, Brittain and recruiting staff from 1997-2001!
Whoever coaches us from 2008-2012 will see a better record than 2003-2007 including..
Yes, your man, Denis Pagan
Give me your thoughts. Be clear, fair and state full reasons not just the typical "Sack Pagan, he doesn't know how to coach!"What an absolute lot of crap you've put together there. He took over a side that, previous to 2002's injury ravaged team, that had been a GF, PF and a SF in the 3 years previous to that. On the decline maybe but alot better than what produced in 2003. The draft penalty years saw us get Simpson (2002), Fisher (2002), Walker (PP 2003), Stevens (PSD 2003) and Scotland-pick 35, 2003). We may have got more but there's nothing there that's going to hold us back. Most clubs would be happy to get that lot with early picks. If you want to talk recruiting, let's talk about the retreads in 2003 he picked up.
The fact is he is on top $$$$ and in the wash-up, who would've possibly done worse. We could've got you to coach them for nothing and got the same result. at leats you might of had the players playing for you. Let's face it, take away the 10 wins in 2004, the other year's results of 4 wins, 4 wins, 3 wins and 4 wins so far this year would not have been hard to attain with the list we have. They could've coached themselves to that and saved us a fortune. We have progressed no-where AS A TEAM, where it really counts. 100pt, 77pt, 23 pts to the 15th team playing half their seconds, and 62 pts defeats in the last 4 weeks demonstrate that and that's 5 years after he started. Let's not worry about the record defeats, the "Hall of Shame" 26 x 60pts + defeats, 10 clubs producing record winning margins against us, the lack of respect he has from the players, his rigid, inflexible, outdated game plans and his constant playing if players out of position.
Any Pagan supporters the still try to defend him surely now have no crediblity left.
Enough there for you. Comprehendo!!!!
where's nutcase? he usually jumps at the sound of pagans name.
where's nutcase? he usually jumps at the sound of pagans name.
Probably using his Richmond alias now, to pledge the fine work of Wallace. Or maybe on the using his Melbourne alias, crying over the demise of the great coach in Daniher. :rolleyes: Maybe even rallying the Dockers board to sign Connoly for 5 years!
WalkerTexasRanger
16 Jul 2007, 23:05
Just chatting with a few mates today and they seem to think he has done a reasonable job with what he has had and we are now looking to go in the right track.
I have to admit I was almost moved to thinking we have been harsh on Denis Pagan.
I know there are minimal Pagan supporters left and he will most probably go at the end of 2007 but...
He came to the club in its biggest time of on and off field turmoil.
We won our first wooden spoon in our VERY, VERY proud history in 2002 under Brittain.
We lost 2 years worth of first and second round draft picks and noone can argue how important they are which forced us to hope with late round picks which we knew would have a high certainty of not making it.
The drafting and player management under Parkin and Brittain left us with no older generation players except Koutoufides, Whitnall, Camporeale (now gone) & Lappin and it left us with minimal players in the 110-190 game players like Houlihan.
Pagan under those circumstances had to look for experience elsewhere for the 2004 season with players like Morrell, Teague, Johnston, Harford, D. Johnson, Bannister etc. which proved a good 1 season quick fix giving us 11 wins and still giving experience to a lot of younger players.
Pagan later admitted to the situation of 2004 to be undesirable but he had no choice but to recruit older with just a pure lack of numbers in our squad ready for AFL football.
We now with a few years back in the draft have recruited players like Murphy (no.1), Kennedy (no.4), Gibbs (no. 1). And he has succeded in attempting to get some experienced players in our mix like Stevens & Scotland.
Players Pagan has mentored in the 50-100 game bracket are now starting to blossom such as Carrazzo, Walker, Simpson, Waite & Fisher and they will continue to get better with more time and they need to become the core group of 110-190 game players for our next generation with Stevens, Scotland & Houlihan in our veteran class. Both of those generations we are bare in our list of today!
Even though everyone has gone past the point of return for Pagan, take these facts on board and try and refocus your message to be fair.
I know these fact have changed my opinion!
The fault is not on Pagan!
Blame Elliot, Parkin, Brittain and recruiting staff from 1997-2001!
Whoever coaches us from 2008-2012 will see a better record than 2003-2007 including..
Yes, your man, Denis Pagan
Give me your thoughts. Be clear, fair and state full reasons not just the typical "Sack Pagan, he doesn't know how to coach!"
Pagan needs to go because it's time. The players that we have need a new coach and the belief that they can start anew with a new senior coach. This is important in uniting the players behind a coach they respect and listen to and (also need a captain that they feel the same about). Watching Hawthorn belt us a few weeks back I saw a key difference in the sides and it wasn't the skills of individual players - it was how the Hawks played for each other the whole time - as really united team.
Pagan must also go at the end of the year, or before, because of the financial tragedy that would come from keeping him on - in terms of lost sponsorship and membership. New coach = new hope at least.
I feel sorry for Pagan, but I think he is being setup to fail a little by the powers that be.
marcmurphy3
16 Jul 2007, 23:08
PAGAN is still our man.. and i dont think we could do a hell of alot better than what he has done...i really hope he stays next year
I hope you're joking. Someone could have don better than last.
I hope you're joking. Someone could have don better than last.
spot on, my pet dog can coach better than pagan
spot on, my pet dog can coach better than pagan
I've already put my dead cat up for a caretaker role... I think there has been some interest. :)
16 Premierships
16 Jul 2007, 23:21
:(If you read, I ask for replies of people who aren't just Pagan-Bashing for no reason.
All I read on the other posts are
"He has no tactics"
"He drafts bad"
"Same thing over again"
I want people to reply on this thread in detail why they think this and not just constant people asking for his head in brief.
If you wanna just blurt out random two line dribble about getting rid of him go do it in the Pagan Haters threads
Dennis Pagan has undoubtly put the club in its position it is today
Reasons:
1. He came to carlton and got rid of Beaumont , manton , porter ,and many others
his replacement mick martyn :thumbsd: great person to teach the young guys
2. Then lost mcKay ,ratts not his fault. matty allen TWO first round pre season picks we have Mc claren ,acland :thumbsd:
3. so we say we are rebuilding our only real backman is Brett thornton 5 long years with Pagan he still does not have a settled backline.
so we try Saddington :thumbsd:But hang on we have Santanta 2 years playing Aussie rules Dennis has decided he should be our #1 ruckman our CHB ,our rover ,our CHF . the whole of AUSTRALIA and we have a guy 2 years in the system in our Profesional TEAM pls note i am not haveing a go at santanta but i woud have liked him like so many others at carlton to learn from expierienced players.
so out of all of this i even think wallis from richmond is facing the same task with the tigers Kellaway ,gasper these guys are 29 ,30 years of age but they teach really well .
4. In my closing statement i would like to bring the Kangaroos in to the picture . should be bottom of the ladder but the have the old teachers there archer will finnish and pratt will take over.so on and so on.:(
nutcase888
16 Jul 2007, 23:23
What an absolute lot of crap you've put together there. He took over a side that, previous to 2002's injury ravaged team, that had been a GF, PF and a SF in the 3 years previous to that. On the decline maybe but alot better than what produced in 2003. The draft penalty years saw us get Simpson (2002), Fisher (2002), Walker (PP 2003), Stevens (PSD 2003) and Scotland-pick 35, 2003). We may have got more but there's nothing there that's going to hold us back. Most clubs would be happy to get that lot with early picks. If you want to talk recruiting, let's talk about the retreads in 2003 he picked up.
The fact is he is on top $$$$ and in the wash-up, who would've possibly done worse. We could've got you to coach them for nothing and got the same result. at leats you might of had the players playing for you. Let's face it, take away the 10 wins in 2004, the other year's results of 4 wins, 4 wins, 3 wins and 4 wins so far this year would not have been hard to attain with the list we have. They could've coached themselves to that and saved us a fortune. We have progressed no-where AS A TEAM, where it really counts. 100pt, 77pt, 23 pts to the 15th team playing half their seconds, and 62 pts defeats in the last 4 weeks demonstrate that and that's 5 years after he started. Let's not worry about the record defeats, the "Hall of Shame" 26 x 60pts + defeats, 10 clubs producing record winning margins against us, the lack of respect he has from the players, his rigid, inflexible, outdated game plans and his constant playing if players out of position.
Any Pagan supporters the still try to defend him surely now have no crediblity left.
Enough there for you. Comprehendo!!!!
Why is it Jim that you sem to think our list in 2003,04, 05 was anything but the worse list in football by a mile? All the experts say so, i think even most of the Pagan bashers on this board would agree with that. theres nothing left to really say about this issue. you continue to turn a blind eye to reason. i am in full agreeance with what the thread creator said.
you mention we got Fisher in 2002 ( we did but he has been injury prone). Simpson (yes but only came on last year), walker (Really just coming on now). scotland (yes but hardly an elite player), Stevens (yes but not playing this year). Those kids you mention need time Jim. You can't just draft them and expect them to become superstars overnight. Simpson and WAlker are comng along niceley but will be even better in a year or two. But they still don't have the bodies ot compete with the more hardened physical sides like Sydney. You seem to think that his group of kids should be able to beat just about any opposition in the league. i think it's your credibility that's in tatters
didnt take him long did it jj?
CFC_4LYF_TRUE BLUE
16 Jul 2007, 23:24
Fair point but i hardly see him make any moves on the ground
- never puts gibbs up forward
- never tries anything new
He doesnt take any risks - and i dont know why he doesnt, he has nothing to lose we are on the bottom looking to go up
didnt take him long did it jj?
You know that scene in Superman Returns when Superman takes Lois up in the air and you hear all those people crying for a savior.... well Nutcase has super pagan hearing... anyone crying for Pagan to be sacked he hears and comes to Pagan's defence.
At this point in time he'd be going deaf :)
his d1ck is like a magnet to pagans bum hole
nutcase888
16 Jul 2007, 23:31
You know that scene in Superman Returns when Superman takes Lois up in the air and you hear all those people crying for a savior.... well Nutcase has super pagan hearing... anyone crying for Pagan to be sacked he hears and comes to Pagan's defence.
At this point in time he'd be going deaf
what do you guys fear me coming along? is it b/c you know that i am the voice of reason and reason is something that you guys just don't want to hear?
i will be behind Pagan to the end and i am proud of it.
bugger off mate, we fear u b/c u are a major league p00f and nobody likes a po0f. For example, your buddy pagan is a po0f and look, nobody likes him. ohh yer, and we know wat u mean by 'behind pagan'
nutcase888
16 Jul 2007, 23:51
posted by Bolz bugger off mate, we fear u b/c u are a major league p00f and nobody likes a po0f. For example, your buddy pagan is a po0f and look, nobody likes him. ohh yer, and we know wat u mean by 'behind pagan'
well in fairness, the above post is more intelligent and insightful than most of the pagan bashing posts on this board
Da Bull
17 Jul 2007, 08:38
Just out of intrest has anybody posted the names of the players that were drafted using our stolen picks in the 2nd rounds in 03 - 04?
Go_Blues!
17 Jul 2007, 11:03
Pagan was a very successful coach who has proved his credentials over many years. All of this crap about "the modern game has passed him by" is just rubish. I believe that no other coach could have done much better this year. His tactics are fine, his player management seems fine (from what little I can tell from watching the games - a lot of people here have must have much better inside information than me to pass these kinds of judgements.
However, Pagan must go. The reason we are in this position is largely because of him. Pagan tore the fabric of this football club when he traded out a bunch of Carlton players (admitedly a lot were not much good) and brought in all of his recycled players. I understand the justification for doing this - he thought we were facing a train wreck - but you can't rebuild a team in one day. By bringing in a bunch of players from other clubs (a lot with their own bagage), he destroyed the culture and the team lost the idea of what it is to be Carlton. That idea is passed on to the new players as they arrive and is supported and perpetuated by the past players and supporters. Pagan tore it all down and it will take a generation to rebuild. You look at the big Victorian clubs - they are never down for long because they have a culture that demands success (with the exception of richmond who have a culture that demands failure.
Just imagine if a new manager came into your work, sacked half the employees and brought in a bunch of mid-career replacements. It would destroy the work-place. Football clubs and built on things much more traditional than work-places, and Pagan destroyed it.
We need a new coach, not because they will do any better, but because we need to start again and try to rebuild and redefine what Carlton means.
Pagan was a very successful coach who has proved his credentials over many years. All of this crap about "the modern game has passed him by" is just rubish. I believe that no other coach could have done much better this year. His tactics are fine, his player management seems fine (from what little I can tell from watching the games - a lot of people here have must have much better inside information than me to pass these kinds of judgements.
However, Pagan must go. The reason we are in this position is largely because of him. Pagan tore the fabric of this football club when he traded out a bunch of Carlton players (admitedly a lot were not much good) and brought in all of his recycled players. I understand the justification for doing this - he thought we were facing a train wreck - but you can't rebuild a team in one day. By bringing in a bunch of players from other clubs (a lot with their own bagage), he destroyed the culture and the team lost the idea of what it is to be Carlton. That idea is passed on to the new players as they arrive and is supported and perpetuated by the past players and supporters. Pagan tore it all down and it will take a generation to rebuild. You look at the big Victorian clubs - they are never down for long because they have a culture that demands success (with the exception of richmond who have a culture that demands failure.
Just imagine if a new manager came into your work, sacked half the employees and brought in a bunch of mid-career replacements. It would destroy the work-place. Football clubs and built on things much more traditional than work-places, and Pagan destroyed it.
We need a new coach, not because they will do any better, but because we need to start again and try to rebuild and redefine what Carlton means.
Nicely said.
So in order to bring back the culture would you advocate having an ex-Blue as our next coach? ie Ratten?
BlueWorld
17 Jul 2007, 11:37
:(
Dennis Pagan has undoubtly put the club in its position it is today
Reasons:
1. He came to carlton and got rid of Beaumont , manton , porter ,and many others
his replacement mick martyn :thumbsd: great person to teach the young guys
2. Then lost mcKay ,ratts not his fault. matty allen TWO first round pre season picks we have Mc claren ,acland :thumbsd:
:(Porter was coached by Pagan when he was still at the roos. Brittain got rid of him. Beaumont was a disruptive influence- why should he have stayed? I suppose we should have kept angwin as well. Allan was really good when he went to the bombers wasn't he?
who gives a sh..on the history..we have won twice as many games as last year...our players are getting bigger and better....if the bloke in charge is not getting the desired results then like in the real world he has to go...those who do the appointing have to take a punt..none of the leadership team who are there now (bar sticks) appointed pagan the new team have had to go with him because he was there before they were....it happens all the time in business..if the boss can't achieve his targets he normally goes and all the excuses (they cease to become reasons) dont mean diddlysquat....it's not rocket science I'm neither a pagan hater or lover but what I see is that Pratt and Co will sit down at seasons end and say OK given what have we achieved this year... 100% better winning result than last year and not as many beltings...player development getting better ( and we have seen that with Waite Simmo Walker ect)..how much is this to do with pagan...if they view it has everything to do with him then he'll see his contract out if they don't think he can achieve the clubs required targets and can't take us any further they'll end it....simple as that
Pagan was a very successful coach who has proved his credentials over many years. All of this crap about "the modern game has passed him by" is just rubish. I believe that no other coach could have done much better this year. His tactics are fine, his player management seems fine (from what little I can tell from watching the games - a lot of people here have must have much better inside information than me to pass these kinds of judgements.
However, Pagan must go. The reason we are in this position is largely because of him. Pagan tore the fabric of this football club when he traded out a bunch of Carlton players (admitedly a lot were not much good) and brought in all of his recycled players. I understand the justification for doing this - he thought we were facing a train wreck - but you can't rebuild a team in one day. By bringing in a bunch of players from other clubs (a lot with their own bagage), he destroyed the culture and the team lost the idea of what it is to be Carlton. That idea is passed on to the new players as they arrive and is supported and perpetuated by the past players and supporters. Pagan tore it all down and it will take a generation to rebuild. You look at the big Victorian clubs - they are never down for long because they have a culture that demands success (with the exception of richmond who have a culture that demands failure.
Just imagine if a new manager came into your work, sacked half the employees and brought in a bunch of mid-career replacements. It would destroy the work-place. Football clubs and built on things much more traditional than work-places, and Pagan destroyed it.
We need a new coach, not because they will do any better, but because we need to start again and try to rebuild and redefine what Carlton means.
the reason we are in our current position is because we we serial slary cap cheats, we refused to move with the times and become and act fully professional and we had a philosphy for years of 'we at carlton never rebuild'
IMO the fabric of the club was torn out before pagan arrived.
yes pagan has to take some of the responsibiliy, but there are many, many others who need to also take responsibility.