View Full Version : Play him Pagan! Pathetic.
Blue Dimension
19 Jul 2007, 01:15
This is really a rant. This is probably one of the many reasons why i want Denis Pagan gone. We have a guy in the reserves, racking up the possessions each week in Luke Blackwell, and Pagan insists on playing previously tried players or no hoper's such as Wiggins, Saddington and Young.
Luke Blackwell continues to perform and perform well in the two's. 40 plus possessions again this week. He could be an absolute star if given the chance. Yet Pagan leaves him in the reserves - his talent is being wasted.
You might ask 'well he's played a handful of games this year and hasn't done much'. Take a look at the amount of time he spends on the bench and you'll realize the reason for his unhealthy stat sheet.
It frustrates me to think that someone as promising as Blackwell may end up being delisted this year because of Pagan's stupid ways of thinking.
Pagan is supposed to be one of the best guys at developing young kids...please...what a joke.
some people will reply and say "his disposal blah" and "his leg speed wah" but I agree with you. he should be playing every week.
Blue Dimension
19 Jul 2007, 01:40
some people will reply and say "his disposal blah" and "his leg speed wah" but I agree with you. he should be playing every week.
Yes, i know he has faults with speed and sometimes disposal. But he's being fed the ball consistently in the twos, so isn't that bad.
It's not like we're losing any pace by omitting someone like Wiggins or Young. They're both slow, and Wiggins' kicking skills are woeful, especially when kicking for goal - the only good thing about him is his marking ability.
Maybe Pagan is TANKING!:mad:
Blue Dimension
19 Jul 2007, 01:43
Maybe Pagan is TANKING!:mad:
With his career on the line I'd hardly think so. Dare i say if he was in a safe position then maybe he would.
With his career on the line I'd hardly think so. Dare i say if he was in a safe position then maybe he would.
So the Players are TANKING!:confused:
Dramoth
19 Jul 2007, 06:49
So the Players are TANKING!:confused:
I seriously doubt that... at least not consciously...
I think that Pagan has lost the confidence of the players and they are taking that lack of confidence out onto the ground with them and that is what is causing the problems.
major_blue
19 Jul 2007, 09:48
Reasons for not playing him:
- gets a few stats but all undamaging, has not penetration and cant hit a target beyond 40m
- totally unaccountable, his opponent is always far mor damaging
-doesnt have speed or an engine
-doesnt have physiclity to impose himself
-given stevens return, gibbs to midfield in time , murphy, simpson and walker in there plus a high draft pick and maybe an uncontracted player there is no medium term place for him.
Reasons for not playing him:
- gets a few stats but all undamaging, has not penetration and cant hit a target beyond 40m
- totally unaccountable, his opponent is always far mor damaging
-doesnt have speed or an engine
-doesnt have physiclity to impose himself
-given stevens return, gibbs to midfield in time , murphy, simpson and walker in there plus a high draft pick and maybe an uncontracted player there is no medium term place for him.
sums it up pretty well, blackwell has a number of area's in his game he need to work on.
Master of Cooks
19 Jul 2007, 10:25
Reasons for not playing him:
- gets a few stats but all undamaging, has not penetration and cant hit a target beyond 40m. You could have said the same thing for Carrazzo last year.
- totally unaccountable, his opponent is always far mor damaging. Who in our midfield is accountable???
-doesnt have speed or an engine. Speeds overrated, you can build an engine if given enough coaching and game time.
-doesnt have physiclity to impose himself. Who in our midfield does???
-given stevens return, gibbs to midfield in time , murphy, simpson and walker in there plus a high draft pick and maybe an uncontracted player there is no medium term place for him. Look at the good teams. Nearly all of the them have about 8+ players rotating through the midfield.
This is really a rant. This is probably one of the many reasons why i want Denis Pagan gone. We have a guy in the reserves, racking up the possessions each week in Luke Blackwell, and Pagan insists on playing previously tried players or no hoper's such as Wiggins, Saddington and Young.
Luke Blackwell continues to perform and perform well in the two's. 40 plus possessions again this week. He could be an absolute star if given the chance. Yet Pagan leaves him in the reserves - his talent is being wasted.
You might ask 'well he's played a handful of games this year and hasn't done much'. Take a look at the amount of time he spends on the bench and you'll realize the reason for his unhealthy stat sheet.
It frustrates me to think that someone as promising as Blackwell may end up being delisted this year because of Pagan's stupid ways of thinking.
Pagan is supposed to be one of the best guys at developing young kids...please...what a joke.
developing kids is not just about playing them in the seniors.
posessions mean little these days. it's what you do with the posessions and how your direct opponent fares against you.
Go_Blues!
19 Jul 2007, 10:54
Reasons for not playing him:
- gets a few stats but all undamaging, has not penetration and cant hit a target beyond 40m
- totally unaccountable, his opponent is always far mor damaging
-doesnt have speed or an engine
-doesnt have physiclity to impose himself
-given stevens return, gibbs to midfield in time , murphy, simpson and walker in there plus a high draft pick and maybe an uncontracted player there is no medium term place for him.
This pretty much sums it up. Blackwell has had a number of oportunities. He is a good inside player, is ok around the stoppages, and gets the ball well - but he does nothing with it. I suspect he will be retained on the list for another year but unless he starts improving the aspects of his game listed above, he will be gone in a year or two.
AlecDuncan
19 Jul 2007, 11:06
This pretty much sums it up. Blackwell has had a number of oportunities. He is a good inside player, is ok around the stoppages, and gets the ball well - but he does nothing with it. I suspect he will be retained on the list for another year but unless he starts improving the aspects of his game listed above, he will be gone in a year or two.
He definitely has his deficiencies which are not so apparent in the VFL, but I believe he can work on them and is doing OK for a kid. Height will always be his problem, but if he works in the gym on his strength and on the track to build his running, then he'll be OK.
Then he might not even need to watch his opponent. That's definitely also a problem now as he showed against Robert Harvey earlier this year. In the Bullants he pays almost no attention to opponents because he doesn't need to. In a way it's teaching him bad habits.
Blues_Man
19 Jul 2007, 11:07
Reasons for not playing him:
- gets a few stats but all undamaging, has not penetration and cant hit a target beyond 40m
- totally unaccountable, his opponent is always far mor damaging
-doesnt have speed or an engine
-doesnt have physiclity to impose himself
-given stevens return, gibbs to midfield in time , murphy, simpson and walker in there plus a high draft pick and maybe an uncontracted player there is no medium term place for him.
sums it up perfectly..Blackwell appears to be a very good VFL player who struggles to take that next step up to the AFL
one_twelve112
19 Jul 2007, 11:20
Doesn't seem to have enough upside to suggest he should be in a team with finals aspirations' best 22. With his size, he needs to have something exceptional about him to make it at AFL level, and really, he doesn't. Reminds me a lot of former players; Bret Jonhson and Jimmy Plunkett, gets a stack of the balls but rarely huts the opposition.
Hang on to him to cover injuries and push players for starting positions.
bLUE_bALLs
19 Jul 2007, 12:36
Find his stats for handballs received.
40 possies every week and 25 handball receives!!!
More to the game than possies alone.
I've watched every Bullants game bar one this year. Dennis obviously isnt a great fan, but there are areas he needs to work on. Disposal is average and he isnt penetrating ie; he chips and lollipops a lot of his disposals.
walkers a legend
19 Jul 2007, 12:55
So the Players are TANKING!:confused:yep to get rid of pagan
Bluebear
19 Jul 2007, 13:08
The reason he was selected into the senior side was because he wins the ball. We know this. The coaches know this.
I'm sure when he was dropped, they didn't say "Go back and get another 40 possies and we'll have you back".
Maybe he hasn't been able to do whatthe coaches wanted him to do, other than win the footy.
As pointed out a majority of those touches need to hurt the opposition. He also needs to beat his man to some degree with some defensive pressure. This is why he was dropped after the Hawks game.
Having 40 possies and raking it up in the two's is fine, when you have less pressure and more time to make decisions and execute.....even then he misses more targets than he hits.
The list of guys who tear it up in the reserves but never quite made the step to AFL is endless (Prenda, Sporn, Teague.........)
He has to actually reproduce that form when he comes up to the ones to avoid being a very good reserves player who never quite made it.
Secondly, I would rather the older guys hold their spot and FORCE the kids to take their spot, rather than have a whole new generation of kids come through that haven't had to work hard to get in or stay in. This may underlie the work ethic of some of our current group.
Michael Jezz
19 Jul 2007, 13:11
Totally agree . When you criticise blackwell for disposal fair enough. When people start faocussing on handball receives , absolutley laughable. IF he is nt better than ross young. I will eat my hat. IF he isnt better than than Bentick at the same age I will chew on my socks. What is the MAtch Committee on when judging blackwell, hallucigens?
BlueBoyBrett
19 Jul 2007, 13:50
The kid has a great football brain and pedigree - really think with the season gone we need to give players like him more of a go to see what we have on our list.
Aussie Joe
19 Jul 2007, 15:05
Blackwell gets no respect from Pagan, just like Carrots didn't get any last year.
You will find that once Pagan is gone, Blackwell will get some real games with the new coach and he will go on from there.
Bluebear
19 Jul 2007, 15:09
Blackwell gets no respect from Pagan, just like Carrots didn't get any last year.
You will find that once Pagan is gone, Blackwell will get some real games with the new coach and he will go on from there.
And didn't that just wreck Carrots. Deadset hopeless now, confidence shot, can't find the pill let alone use it...............:rolleyes:
Clearly a sign the coach stuffed that one.:o
Maybe Blackwell should look to himself to improve rather than wait on a new coach.
The clock is ticking and the next batch of skillful mids is on the way. He'd want to hurry up a little, and the next chance he gets he'd want to make it count.
blueskies
19 Jul 2007, 15:26
I was a fan of Blackwell's originally, but I have to say I thought he was exposed badly against the Hawks. I know everyone played badly that night, but I thought Blackwell's lack of pace was exposed that night in that he wasn't able to apply any defensive pressure when he didn't have the ball. That to me is a huge concern. You can't carry many of these types of players in the modern era.
I also think his kicking lacks penetration and he gets a lot of his kicks the old Campo way, by running behind the man who has the ball and getting a cheap little kick.
Look it was good to see him kick the ball a bit longer in the Twos on the weekend, and I haven't put a line through his name yet, but I reckon he's definitely not lock for the long-term.
Aussie Joe
19 Jul 2007, 15:28
And didn't that just wreck Carrots. Deadset hopeless now, confidence shot, can't find the pill let alone use it...............:rolleyes:
Clearly a sign the coach stuffed that one.:o
Maybe Blackwell should look to himself to improve rather than wait on a new coach.
The clock is ticking and the next batch of skillful mids is on the way. He'd want to hurry up a little, and the next chance he gets he'd want to make it count.
Hey, don't give any credit to Pagan for Carrots form this year. Pago constantly played him either in the backline or off the bench. He was never given a real chance until Stevens went out. Please, I know you love the great Pago but stop pumping his tyres. Carrots should of been played in the middle last year.
This is really a rant. This is probably one of the many reasons why i want Denis Pagan gone. We have a guy in the reserves, racking up the possessions each week in Luke Blackwell, and Pagan insists on playing previously tried players or no hoper's such as Wiggins, Saddington and Young.
Luke Blackwell continues to perform and perform well in the two's. 40 plus possessions again this week. He could be an absolute star if given the chance. Yet Pagan leaves him in the reserves - his talent is being wasted.
You might ask 'well he's played a handful of games this year and hasn't done much'. Take a look at the amount of time he spends on the bench and you'll realize the reason for his unhealthy stat sheet.
It frustrates me to think that someone as promising as Blackwell may end up being delisted this year because of Pagan's stupid ways of thinking.
Pagan is supposed to be one of the best guys at developing young kids...please...what a joke.
Agree Pagan has butchered the development of our younger players. Walker is not the player he should be. Gibbs is playing without confidence and Kennedy is in the ruck and on the bench and yes Blackwell should be playing in the seniors.
Hey, don't give any credit to Pagan for Carrots form this year. Pago constantly played him either in the backline or off the bench. He was never given a real chance until Stevens went out. Please, I know you love the great Pago but stop pumping his tyres. Carrots should of been played in the middle last year.
should have, could have, would have- look at carazzo now, his roles in 2006 have not hampered him.
i remember brett ratten spending his early days in the back pocket- that did him a lot of harm.
Bluebear
19 Jul 2007, 16:28
Hey, don't give any credit to Pagan for Carrots form this year. Pago constantly played him either in the backline or off the bench. He was never given a real chance until Stevens went out. Please, I know you love the great Pago but stop pumping his tyres. Carrots should of been played in the middle last year.
Righteo, so the arguement is:
Russell, Walker, Kennedy etc aren't developing BECAUSE of the coach
BUT
the development of Carrazzo, Simpson, Bentick, Fisher, Thornton, O'hAilpin, Waite has NOTHING to do with the coach.......
sounds like a reasonable and well balanced arguement to me.:rolleyes:
P.S. Walker is twice the player now than he was when he started. I would say that his backline apprenticeship has done wonders for him.
Whatever you think he should be is irrelevant. We can only judge on what he WAS, and what he IS now.
I have to agree. Walker is a much better player and will be a much better player than he would have been without Dennis. Without Dennis he would have been a flash in the pan like Thomas will be.
Bluebear
19 Jul 2007, 17:07
I have to agree. Walker is a much better player and will be a much better player than he would have been without Dennis. Without Dennis he would have been a flash in the pan like Thomas will be.
Maybe, maybe not.
The point though is he burst onto the scene and the struggled, for quite some time. Under Pagan he became on of the best small backmen in the comp, and then this year has made a transition to become one of our better midfielders.
Can't see Tex as a pin up boy for the anti-Paganites.
Blue Dimension
19 Jul 2007, 17:14
developing kids is not just about playing them in the seniors.
posessions mean little these days. it's what you do with the posessions and how your direct opponent fares against you.
Yes, but he is being fed the ball. Would you constantly be giving the ball to someone you don't expect to do something with? Come on.
Having 40 possies and raking it up in the two's is fine, when you have less pressure and more time to make decisions and execute.....even then he misses more targets than he hits.
A team doesn't feed a player the ball who can't hit targets.
Reasons for not playing him:
- gets a few stats but all undamaging, has not penetration and cant hit a target beyond 40m
- totally unaccountable, his opponent is always far mor damaging
-doesnt have speed or an engine
-doesnt have physiclity to impose himself
-given stevens return, gibbs to midfield in time , murphy, simpson and walker in there plus a high draft pick and maybe an uncontracted player there is no medium term place for him.
Look at the players we have in our team and the midfield at the moment. Are any of them taking care of their opposition apart from Carrazzo? No.
Are any of our midfielders hard at the ball? Nobody is apart from Bentick.
Blackwell could be a good in and under player. Dare i say if Rats takes over next year Blackwell and Bentick two of the first named players in the side.
Take a look at Matt Priddis and Carrazzo. They're not express in pace! Yet they are two of the most promising players in the AFL because their ability to find the ball on a consistent basis and clear the ball from the midfield.
Blackwell has some really good attributes. I know it's not just about playing the young players for the sake of it, but his performances surely merit a call up. And instead of him playing on the bench for the whole game maybe it'd be a good idea to chuck him into the thick of it and LEAVE him there for once. He's has no chance to settle.
Blackwell gets no respect from Pagan, just like Carrots didn't get any last year.
You will find that once Pagan is gone, Blackwell will get some real games with the new coach and he will go on from there.
I agree. I think Blackwell could really soar with someone to give him better opportunity.
Seems really mixed opinions on him. I am open minded on him and at this point believe he has what it takes. For those who are knocking him how can you be so sure with such little senior game time? He is only about 20 yet you guys seem to have written him off. Others like Bentick and Carazzo and Simpson have been given heaps of time to prove themselves. Why in a season where we have big time struggled has Blackwell not been given heaps of game time?
This is really a rant. This is probably one of the many reasons why i want Denis Pagan gone. We have a guy in the reserves, racking up the possessions each week in Luke Blackwell, and Pagan insists on playing previously tried players or no hoper's such as Wiggins, Saddington and Young.
Luke Blackwell continues to perform and perform well in the two's. 40 plus possessions again this week. He could be an absolute star if given the chance. Yet Pagan leaves him in the reserves - his talent is being wasted.
You might ask 'well he's played a handful of games this year and hasn't done much'. Take a look at the amount of time he spends on the bench and you'll realize the reason for his unhealthy stat sheet.
It frustrates me to think that someone as promising as Blackwell may end up being delisted this year because of Pagan's stupid ways of thinking.
Pagan is supposed to be one of the best guys at developing young kids...please...what a joke.
Pagan can't kick the ball for him. Turned it over 1 in 4 on the weekend. Watched him in the flesh. I'll be surprised if he makes it. Would need to improve his kicking by quite some way. Not many players do that as they get older unfortunately.
EddieBettsIsAChamp
19 Jul 2007, 19:23
I hope Blacky plays, he deserves it.
CFC_4LYF_TRUE BLUE
19 Jul 2007, 21:57
agree 100% he needs time to develop in the seniors
TorresIsGod
19 Jul 2007, 21:57
doesnt have speed or an engine. Speeds overrated, you can build an engine if given enough coaching and game time.
Not sure if it's been posted, but Sam Mitchell doesn't have genuine leg speed, yet, he's a superstar
reg_lower91
20 Jul 2007, 01:04
This is really a rant. This is probably one of the many reasons why i want Denis Pagan gone. We have a guy in the reserves, racking up the possessions each week in Luke Blackwell, and Pagan insists on playing previously tried players or no hoper's such as Wiggins, Saddington and Young.
Luke Blackwell continues to perform and perform well in the two's. 40 plus possessions again this week. He could be an absolute star if given the chance. Yet Pagan leaves him in the reserves - his talent is being wasted.
You might ask 'well he's played a handful of games this year and hasn't done much'. Take a look at the amount of time he spends on the bench and you'll realize the reason for his unhealthy stat sheet.
It frustrates me to think that someone as promising as Blackwell may end up being delisted this year because of Pagan's stupid ways of thinking.
Pagan is supposed to be one of the best guys at developing young kids...please...what a joke.
agreed... it's players like blackers, bannister, wiggins, etc. that just need to be kept in the team in order to be able to prove themselves correctly!
stokesy
23 Jul 2007, 13:05
I thought Blackers was almost our best player yesterday. Showed good hands in the packs and he seemed to be having a crack. Also hit Fev lace out, something Walker and co. still can't do.
He has no penetration in his kicks, he had the chance to kick a couple of goals from 50ms but didn't make the distance.
Hopefully he can play every game for the rest of the year.
[ToTTi]
23 Jul 2007, 13:06
I thought Blackers was almost our best player yesterday. Showed good hands in the packs and he seemed to be having a crack. Also hit Fev lace out, something Walker and co. still can't do.
He has no penetration in his kicks, he had the chance to kick a couple of goals from 50ms but didn't make the distance.
Hopefully he can play every game for the rest of the year.
He was very good in the first half, second half I thought he faded abit but he had a few mates!!
Definitely should play the remaining 6 games.
The Grover
23 Jul 2007, 13:37
Not sure if it's been posted, but Sam Mitchell doesn't have genuine leg speed, yet, he's a superstar
But Sam Mitchell is an outstanding kick with both feet.