View Full Version : Should Australian Cricket team tour Pakistan?
The Doctor
10 May 2002, 21:12
What's your view? Should they go?
red+black
10 May 2002, 23:41
Quite obviously they should not go. It disappoints me that this discussion will go back and forth over the next few months. Play the series in Sharjah and be done with it. Case closed.
SeinDude
11 May 2002, 01:14
The situation over in Pakistan will be monitored closely by the ACB I'm sure, and whatever they decide to do will be in the best interests of our players which is what's most important. :):)
So, to answer the question....
If it's safe for our players, YES!!
If it's not safe, NO!!
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
Satay Mat
13 May 2002, 13:51
yes they should go.
Pakistan is huge place...things will always be hapenning.
In Australia:
Some guy bombed the Hilton in Sydney in the 1970's
Martin Bryant went crazy ape bonkers down in Tassie
We had riots during a South African tour in the 1970's
Is Australia unsafe ?
Unless there is a war then if you do not go the terrorists win.
Satay Mat
SeinDude
13 May 2002, 14:23
Originally posted by Satay Mat
yes they should go.
Pakistan is huge place...things will always be hapenning.
In Australia:
Some guy bombed the Hilton in Sydney in the 1970's
Martin Bryant went crazy ape bonkers down in Tassie
We had riots during a South African tour in the 1970's
Is Australia unsafe ?
Satay Mat,
Stephen Fleming, the New Zealand captain broke down when describing what he and the rest of his team saw and experienced when he was talking about it last week. He advised Australia not to tour Pakistan, and as someone who captained and led his team over in those hostile and dangerous conditions, he'd be someone who knows what he's talking about!!
Adam Gilchrist came out and said Pakistan was a tour he'd gladly not take, and who could blame him!!
How on earth are the players supposed to concentrate on their cricket and perform to their best when they're worried about their safety??
Originally posted by Satay Mat
Unless there is a war then if you do not go the terrorists win.
That is absolute and utter rubbish!! The most important thing is the safety and well-being of our cricketers, not making a political stand or letting or not letting the terrorists win.... this is about a game of cricket for goodness sake!!
If the ACB decides it's not safe enough in Pakistan for us to tour there, then so be it.
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
GoEagles
13 May 2002, 17:36
Am I crazy or did I hear last week that they were proposing to play the test series in Morocco?
Satay Mat
13 May 2002, 17:38
name one player who as actually been affected by any incident whist o/s (getting hit by a 50 cent coin at the MCG excluded).
Why is it unsafe ?
Why was Zimbabwe unsafe ?
Why not just exclude all countries from international cricket unless you can meet some standards regarding the development of your country ???
Exactly what in Pakistan is unsafe ?
SM
Switchedon
13 May 2002, 19:06
Playing with peoples lives?
not worth the risk IMO.
Show some ticker ACB! Send them over to play the games, it's the same everywhere.....
Mark Ealham almost gets hit by a billiard ball at the MCG
Michael Bevan gets hit by a can of beer at Lords
No one ever doubts going to Western countries.
Richie Benaud
13 May 2002, 19:36
It will be very interesting to see what the ACB decides to do with regards to the Pakistan tour. Australia boycotted a World Cup game in Sri Lanka in 1996 as a result of all the troubles in that country at the time and my gut feeling on this is that we wont tour.
SeinDude
13 May 2002, 20:43
Originally posted by Hoggy
Show some ticker ACB! Send them over to play the games, it's the same everywhere.....
Mark Ealham almost gets hit by a billiard ball at the MCG
Michael Bevan gets hit by a can of beer at Lords
No one ever doubts going to Western countries.
Hoggy,
We're not talking about onfield crowd behaviour here mate. We're talking about bombs going off right outside team's hotels, people being killed and seriously injured and basically the general safety of people who play sport and represent our country.
I can't help think what will happen if we do send our team and something serious happens to one or more of our players. These are real people here, most with wives, kids, families, etc etc.
Sometimes, there's simply much more important things to life than a game!!
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
Originally posted by Satay Mat
name one player who as actually been affected by any incident whist o/s (getting hit by a 50 cent coin at the MCG excluded).
Why is it unsafe ?
Why was Zimbabwe unsafe ?
Why not just exclude all countries from international cricket unless you can meet some standards regarding the development of your country ???
Exactly what in Pakistan is unsafe ?
SM
If a single player was ever seriously physically hurt in a terrorist attack then we wouldn't be debating this now would we.
This is the third major terrorist attack during a New Zealand tour, from previous experience they have determined that the best policy is to leave.
When Imran Khan admits that much of rural Pakistan is held hostage to the law of the gun, and that the country has been flooded with cheap weapons, then perhaps his opinion on the negative consequences of this to his country are more relevant that yours or mine.
The fact is this worst case scenario in Pakistan was depressingly predictable, bloody, and yet again for this part of the world motivated by anti-government political objectives.
As for Zimbabwe, when any government intentionally uses widespread terror, and murder, to sustain its own corrupt agenda it can not expect societies that oppose such actions not to consider any interaction as unsafe.
The fact is in Pakistan an Sri Lanka every touring party is surrounded by heavily armed security forces, why do you think that is. If these countries are so damn safe to tour why did the Black Caps create the position of specialist Security Manager?
Why has the airline the team 'fled' on Singapore Airlines, since cancelled all flights to Pakistan, why?
You are the brave hero, tell us how you would react immediately after an explosion and the first head count of your touring party is eight. Meanwhile street victims are literally staggering past missing body limbs and screaming out in pain.
And yes I would consider a suicide bomber blowing up a bus identical to your own team bus less than 50 metres from your hotel as a prime example of the country being unsafe.
An don't even think of laying that monocultural bias crap on me, I've lived in an unstable Asian country for several years also.
As always an ounce of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure.
Originally posted by Satay Mat
Why is it unsafe ?
Why was Zimbabwe unsafe ?
Exactly what in Pakistan is unsafe ?
You dumb f*ck it is pure and simple why not to tour. The bomb exploeded OUTSIDE THE KIWI HOTEL WHILST THEY WERE IN THE FOYER. It is that simple.
How can you expect anyone to go their when unlike Sri Lanka and the Tamal tigers sporting events and tours especially cricket are now a prime target of terrorists who support the old Afghan regime. The tamal's attack military and political positions and are careful not to bring their conflict to the public only make them aware of it.
With this threat and show of where they can get to, the Australian cricket team is a prime target given our support for the US and commitment of troups to the Afghanistan genocide (my opinion). the ACB would be stupid to tour.
Zimbabwe was political though, I think that little honest John put some presure on the ACB to stop the tour.
NYPomme
14 May 2002, 08:27
I ask this out of ignorance, but what makes the Australian national cricket team a terrorist target in Pakistan?
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 13:04
Originally posted by Player
If a single player was ever seriously physically hurt in a terrorist attack then we wouldn't be debating this now would we.
This is the third major terrorist attack during a New Zealand tour, from previous experience they have determined that the best policy is to leave.
When Imran Khan admits that much of rural Pakistan is held hostage to the law of the gun, and that the country has been flooded with cheap weapons, then perhaps his opinion on the negative consequences of this to his country are more relevant that yours or mine.
The fact is this worst case scenario in Pakistan was depressingly predictable, bloody, and yet again for this part of the world motivated by anti-government political objectives.
As for Zimbabwe, when any government intentionally uses widespread terror, and murder, to sustain its own corrupt agenda it can not expect societies that oppose such actions not to consider any interaction as unsafe.
The fact is in Pakistan an Sri Lanka every touring party is surrounded by heavily armed security forces, why do you think that is. If these countries are so damn safe to tour why did the Black Caps create the position of specialist Security Manager?
Why has the airline the team 'fled' on Singapore Airlines, since cancelled all flights to Pakistan, why?
You are the brave hero, tell us how you would react immediately after an explosion and the first head count of your touring party is eight. Meanwhile street victims are literally staggering past missing body limbs and screaming out in pain.
And yes I would consider a suicide bomber blowing up a bus identical to your own team bus less than 50 metres from your hotel as a prime example of the country being unsafe.
An don't even think of laying that monocultural bias crap on me, I've lived in an unstable Asian country for several years also.
As always an ounce of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure.
and so we never tour Pakistan again then ????
Did we cancel tours to England when the IRA were blowing up tude stations ? What about when they blew up the Conservative Party in Brighton ???
Shall we not travel to the US because some crazy guys flew a plane into a building a killed 500 times the number of people as a bus in Pakistan.
If there is a war on then do not go. However I feel that the fact that it is an asian country raises questions which would not normally be asked.
Yesterday a train was derailed in India...apparently in purpose. Do we now not tour India as well ?
I would like to see your criteria for deciding if it is safe of not.
Satay Mat
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 13:06
Originally posted by Slax
You dumb f*ck it is pure and simple why not to tour. The bomb exploeded OUTSIDE THE KIWI HOTEL WHILST THEY WERE IN THE FOYER. It is that simple.
How can you expect anyone to go their when unlike Sri Lanka and the Tamal tigers sporting events and tours especially cricket are now a prime target of terrorists who support the old Afghan regime. The tamal's attack military and political positions and are careful not to bring their conflict to the public only make them aware of it.
With this threat and show of where they can get to, the Australian cricket team is a prime target given our support for the US and commitment of troups to the Afghanistan genocide (my opinion). the ACB would be stupid to tour.
Zimbabwe was political though, I think that little honest John put some presure on the ACB to stop the tour.
why are you swearing at me because I have a different view from yourself.
charming
:mad:
Might as well make our batsmen face granades instead of a cricket ball. I say NO dont send them. The risk is far to high to send our team over there.
For all who say send them I ask you this "Would you currently if given the chance go on a holiday to Pakistan?" I bet you wouldn't.
Keep the boys home until they can 100% guarantee their safety.
BigKev
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 13:31
Originally posted by BigKev
Might as well make our batsmen face granades instead of a cricket ball. I say NO dont send them. The risk is far to high to send our team over there.
For all who say send them I ask you this "Would you currently if given the chance go on a holiday to Pakistan?" I bet you wouldn't.
Keep the boys home until they can 100% guarantee their safety.
BigKev
how do you propose they do that Kev ?
SeinDude
14 May 2002, 14:05
Originally posted by Satay Mat
and so we never tour Pakistan again then ????
Not until the ACB can be assured of our players safety while in Pakistan. That is the most important thing remember, not the fact that you wont have cricket to watch on Foxtel in September!!
Originally posted by Satay Mat
Did we cancel tours to England when the IRA were blowing up tude stations ? What about when they blew up the Conservative Party in Brighton ???
No because the safety of our cricketers was not under threat at those times. We did boycott a World Cup game in Sri Lanka in 1996 after the fighting and killing that was going on in that country at the time, thus deemed unsafe for us to play there.
Originally posted by Satay Mat
Shall we not travel to the US because some crazy guys flew a plane into a building a killed 500 times the number of people as a bus in Pakistan.
We don't play cricket in the United States!! ;)
Originally posted by Satay Mat
If there is a war on then do not go. However I feel that the fact that it is an asian country raises questions which would not normally be asked.
It is irrelevant whether it's an asian country, a western country or the back yard at my nan's place.... the same questions are asked before every proposed tour. The ACB has a responsability to ensure that conditions meet the required standards and currently, going by the horrific experience suffered by the New Zealanders in Pakistan just recently, they are not acceptable.
Originally posted by Satay Mat
Yesterday a train was derailed in India...apparently in purpose. Do we now not tour India as well ?
That's just being silly!!
Originally posted by Satay Mat
I would like to see your criteria for deciding if it is safe of not.
The ACB like every other country's cricket boards has a responsability to it's players to make sure touring conditions meet the required standards as far as player safety, playing conditions, transport, etc etc.
Satay Mat,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, no doubt about that. However, it seems to me you're more concerned that you wont have any cricket to watch on the tv in September (in your cardboard box!!;)) then you are with the safety of our elite sports people.
The question I would ask you is this....
"If you were in charge of the Australian cricket team and made the decision that we should tour a country like Pakistan despite what is going on there, and something happened to one or more of our players.... (and I'm talking something serious such as people dying) what would YOU do???"
Think about it!! ;);)
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 14:19
I think that is pure popularism Seindude.
Tell me how the ACB will be assured of safety. Are you suggesting that when the NZCB asked they got the answer:
"no it is not really safe....could be a few bombs, not much we can do....but come anyway"
So what has to happen for it to be safe ?
England toured Pakistan last year without incident.
To answer your question.....
I would make sure that all reasonable steps have been taken prior to going. That is all you can do. But there is a risk to player safety everytime they take the field, every time they go on tour....if you want a 100% guarentee then we will just stop playing all together.
I also think where it is is important. We did not go to Sri Lanka....were our cricketersat threat ??? were they under threat in Zimbabwe ??? any more than in England during the IRA ??? But no-one would think about cancelling an England tour.
Cricket has been played on the sub-continent for decades, and there has always been trouble....name one incident where someone has actually been hurt or attacked.
I will give you one for free.....the 1976 Olympics in Montreal (I think I have the year right....Palestinians go crazy ape bonkers and knock off the Isreali team....should we cancel going to Canada ???....or was it Munich ??? anyway....we did not come home then.
I will also let you in on something. In 4 weeks I will be moving to live in India....right where people are knocking each other off round about now. I have a wife and 2 kids, with one on the way. So, actually I face this decision daily, and not just for some highly paid sports professionals but for my own family. What did I do ? I went over and checked it out for myself. Made a call based on facts rather than CNN.
So please, don't tell me it is just so I have something to watch on TV in September. :rolleyes:
Satay Mat
SeinDude
14 May 2002, 15:14
Satay Mat,
The bottom line here is that conditions in Pakistan are not safe for anyone, let alone our elite sports people!! I certainly wouldn't travel there so I'm not expecting our cricketers to have to go there just to play a game of cricket!!
The ACB will take everything into account, and I'm sure whatever they decide will be in the best interests of Australian cricket and it's people.
You are entitled to your opinion, and good luck to you living in India. I hope you're never faced with the same thoughts Stephen Fleming had when he couldn't account for half his team after the bomb blast, otherwise you may think a little differently on this issue!! ;);)
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
Originally posted by Satay Mat
how do you propose they do that Kev ?
Simple Just don't go. Why should we risk sending players to Pakistan if there is a slight chance that they will not come home. In this instance they (the ACB) have a choice.
BigKev
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 17:20
Pakistan is never going to be as safe as say a tour to NZ....
so you would never tour Pakistan at all ???
anywhere else you would not send the lads ???
Satay Mat
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 17:25
Originally posted by chicken minute
I'll give you one, Marlon Black. Assaulted in a vicious attack, possibly racially motivated.
Fair grounds for boycotting that scum-ridden country.
and then the West Indian beaten in a night club in Melbourne a few years back ??? No more boxing day ???
Ricky Ponting beaten in a nightclub in Sydney ???
SM
SeinDude
14 May 2002, 18:50
Originally posted by Satay Mat
Pakistan is never going to be as safe as say a tour to NZ....
so you would never tour Pakistan at all ???
Not until the conditions over there settle down a bit so that safety can be maintained, all be it with guards, officials, etc etc, such has occured on past Australian tours to the sub-continent.
Originally posted by Satay Mat
anywhere else you would not send the lads ???
Anywhere the ACB decides is not safe for us to tour.
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
Originally posted by Satay Mat
and then the West Indian beaten in a night club in Melbourne a few years back ??? No more boxing day ???
Ricky Ponting beaten in a nightclub in Sydney ???
SM
Satay Mat. As Sam Newman would say "you idiot"
BigKev
Satay Mat
14 May 2002, 20:06
indeed
but my post was not to compare Ponting with a bomb blast....the only example anyone could give was a guy getting beaten up....well we are no saints in that regard
SM
SeinDude
14 May 2002, 22:00
Originally posted by Satay Mat
indeed
but my post was not to compare Ponting with a bomb blast....the only example anyone could give was a guy getting beaten up....well we are no saints in that regard
SM
Satay Mat,
Don't you think the reason there is not many examples is that teams don't go on a tour if the country is experiencing tourmoil like Pakistan is at the moment?? And might I say, thank bloody god there isn't many examples either that's all I can say!!
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
Destructive
15 May 2002, 11:48
There was the explosion right outside th NZ teams hotel. That would be enogh to scare the **** out of anybody. I don't think they shoud go. If it was me, I would'nt.
Pessimistic
15 May 2002, 11:58
Originally posted by Satay Mat
yes they should go.
Pakistan is huge place...things will always be hapenning.
In Australia:
Some guy bombed the Hilton in Sydney in the 1970's
Martin Bryant went crazy ape bonkers down in Tassie
We had riots during a South African tour in the 1970's
Is Australia unsafe ?
Unless there is a war then if you do not go the terrorists win.
Satay Mat
Judging by the budget expenditure by Abbott, Costello and Howard, autralia is unsafe and we need to cut health spending to pay for it
RoosLuver
15 May 2002, 16:58
I agree with Seindude. If it is safe to travel there yes, but if it isnt NO WAY!!
Bomber Spirit
15 May 2002, 18:52
If the tour was supposed to be leaving today, then no way should they go. Too dangerous.
But the tour's not for a few months yet. Better to make a decision closer to the time.
SeinDude
15 May 2002, 21:11
Originally posted by Bomber Spirit
If the tour was supposed to be leaving today, then no way should they go. Too dangerous.
But the tour's not for a few months yet. Better to make a decision closer to the time.
Bomber Spirit,
I believe that's exactly what the ACB are doing. They're going to wait until closer to the date to make a final decision, and I'm sure they'll monitor the situation over there very closely before making that final decision.
Cheers!! :cool:
SeinDude
rubberman
15 May 2002, 21:21
If they could go to sri lanka when they had a civil war with the Tamils, they can go to Pakistan. Id hate to see the insurance bill though.
Joe Mama
15 May 2002, 22:31
Originally posted by chicken minute
I'll give you one, Marlon Black. Assaulted in a vicious attack, possibly racially motivated.
Fair grounds for boycotting that scum-ridden country.
There's one problem with that, chicken minute. the attackers were Samoan, and not white. and the police reports (and the confessions from the attackers) say that the attack on Marlon Black wasn't racially motivated, but I won't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
P.S
Thank god you're stuck in France, lets hope you stay there permanently.
But, back to the original thread. We're going to have to wait and see what happens from here to when the tour starts in September.
Unlike Satay Mat, I believe that the safety of our players, supporters and journalists that will be over there if the tour goes ahead, should be our first priority, and if there are any serious risks to the touring party, then we should cancel the tour immediately.
Satay Mat
16 May 2002, 16:30
When did I say I don't believe in the safety of our players ???:confused: :confused: :confused:
My view is the same as everyone else's....IF it is not safe then do not go.
My point is that it is easy sitting in a chair in Melbourne to decide "oh it is not safe"....but really you cannot reach that conclusion.
I also think there is a propensity to reach one conclusion for one country and another conclusion for another (M Gatting 1987). The USA is "Safe" - 4500 people killed....Pakistan is not (16 people killed).
By most of the viewpoints on here, Pakistan will never be safe. If you want a guarentee, you cannot have one. Life is about risks and the ACB should decide based on the facts. Clearly, if you were standing next to the bus at the time it was not safe....is it safe now ? Who let off the bomb ? What was their motive ? Did they know that the NZ team were in the hotel....were the after the NZ team ?
It is all to easy to say "it is not safe"....but "safe" is subjective.
Not one person who has said "No" has been able to say what their criteria for "safe" is.
Satay Mat
Satay Mat
16 May 2002, 16:32
oh.....
and to the other 4 people who voted "yes"......you are all weak as Pi$$ !!!:D :D :D
Satay Mat
Joe Mama
19 May 2002, 23:08
Sorry Satay Mat, what I said earlier was a bit over the top, and I apoligise.
But, you're right. you can NEVER GUARANTEE ANYTHING, touring Pakistan always carry an element of risk, (as well as any other counrty we team travells to), the important thing is that we take all precautions when we go there, if the ACB plays the Pakistani tour at a neutral venue, because of McGrath,Warne and Gilchrist not wanting to play in the sub-continent (Alec Steward and Darren Gough did the same thing when they were going to tour India, not long after September 11), then that's **** weak, because England toured India without Stewart and Gough (because they had the same grievences as Warne etc), and i'm sure that Watson, Katich, Campbell etc. would give thier right nut to play for thier country, regardless of where they're playing.
Satay Mat
20 May 2002, 00:28
no worries Wayde....go your hardest mate !!!
I agree re the tour....if it is safe it is safe and if it is not then it is not. Having some players opting in and some opting out is nonsense. The English situation in India was apalling....IMHO if the ACB sanctions an official tour, and you consider yourself an Australian player then you must go.
If you opt out then you opt out for the net Ashes tour and all other home games as well.
Playing for your country is an honour, not something to give or take lightly.
cheers
:)
Satay Mat
p.s I wouldn't mind them playing in Shajah....I would actuall get to go and that would be cool !
What does it matter now, there is no way it can go ahead if Australian cricket is stay healthy.
So far confirmed non starters
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Glen McGrath
Questionable starters
Matthew Hayden
Damien Martyn
Jason Gillespe
Pretty hard to go without that lot.
Joe Mama
21 May 2002, 22:10
But, Steve Waugh said on the Today Show (i'm going to para-phrase here) that "....We don't have to tour Pakistan for another four months and we don't know what the situation's going to be like there (in Pakistan), until just before we leave to go to the sub-continent".
If they find that that it's reasonably safe to tour, then we should go, and the ACB shouldn't be the victim of blackmail by its own players.