View Full Version : Players/matchday staff - do they want to win tomorrow?
The overwhelming majority of Blues fans on this site seem to want to see the club drop the points tomorrow for obvious reasons. That's completely understandable - not just for the future of the club in having the extra pick, but maybe also because of an element of feeling like you've had a bit of a victory in '07 (not meant to be condescending in any way, but the element of needing to barrack for something for the betterment of the club).
Taking into account that a number of players would be trying their guts out to impress the new coach and stay in the squad, and that Ratten would want to prove something as a coach, do you think the players and matchday staff genuinely want to win tomorrow?
If so, the benefit of a victory could be enormous for your club for confidence, morale and just a tiny bit of momentum heading into '08. Port notched up late season wins in 2000 and it was the platform for our success in the next 4 years. To me, any of those things may prove to be more important than an extra draft pick.
Thoughts?
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 01:07
I hope not but I would think the players would.
We must, must, must not win this game.
The players couldn't give a stuff about the PP.
They go out there, and will want to win. The look on their faces when they lost to Essendon in the dying minutes says it all. If the players are going out and deliberately losing then they're well and truly lost - they will try their hardest, but they will probably fall short. And considering our average age lined up on Sunday, I will not be surprised, it will be boys vs men.
You ask them straight to their faces if they are going out to deliberately lose. Then you'll get a emphatic answer.
Bluebear
2 Sep 2007, 01:23
Yep they definately want to win.
There are a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players desperate to prove they are worth keeping.
There are some older guys playing for their AFL careers...........do you think Lance (if he plays) would play to lose just so some kid can take his place?
He'll be trying to prove he is an AFL footballer.
The fact is we will put out there a team that is very inexpereinced, mostly forced on us by injury, some by selection, and this team has far less lilelihood of overcoming a more expereinced opponent.
The goal isn't to lose. The goal is experience, we we lack.
Losing is just the by product.
If that's the case, then I suggest a victory would be better for Carlton than a loss.
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 01:31
If that's the case, then I suggest a victory would be better for Carlton than a loss.
No, it would not.
A 200 gamer would be much better then a meaningless win.
No, it would not.
A 200 gamer would be much better then a meaningless win.
Why do people automatically assume he'll be a 200 gamer. Because he was picked at #1, yeah? Maybe you should've said a potential 200 gamer. Nothing is certain in this game, especially not a claim that a kid who has never played at AFL level will suddenly turn a 200 game champ. Anything can happen between now and "then".
What is "meaningless" is a matter of interpretation, but I do not agree with you. No win is ever meaningless. 'Tis a dangerous attitude for the players to have and get drilled into them... I certainly would not want any of the players to embrace losing. They should go out there and try to win every game, even when they're being outclassed.
If they don't give a stuff, the spirit is gone. The passion for the jumper is gone... and when you lose that, you lose team work. And you lose heavily and don't give a whimper in the process. What kind of environment is that for up and coming players. I believe such attitudes are part of the reason why we've been shit so long in the first place.
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 01:48
Why do people automatically assume he'll be a 200 gamer. Because he was picked at #1, yeah? Maybe you should've said a potential 200 gamer. Nothing is certain in this game, especially not a claim that a kid who has never played at AFL level will suddenly turn a 200 game champ. Anything can happen between now and "then".
What is "meaningless" is a matter of interpretation, but I do not agree with you. No win is ever meaningless. 'Tis a dangerous attitude for the players to have and get drilled into them... I certainly would not want any of the players to embrace losing. They should go out there and try to win every game, even when they're being outclassed.
If they don't give a stuff, the spirit is gone. The passion for the jumper is gone... and when you lose that, you lose team work. And you lose heavily and don't give a whimper in the process. What kind of environment is that for up and coming players. I believe such attitudes are part of the reason why we've been shit so long in the first place.
I agree that our players should always try and win. That is why it is up to our coaching staff to make sure we lose.
Whether you want to win or not there can be no doubt that losing this game is so much better for our future. There has not been an ordinary number 1 draft pick for about 12 yrs. Trust me, number one is a guarantee.
Whether you want to win or not there can be no doubt that losing this game is so much better for our future. There has not been an ordinary number 1 draft pick for about 12 yrs. Trust me, number one is a guarantee.
A guarantee to what?
While you're right about no 'ordinary' picks, how many of them turned out superstars? How many of them played in premierships, or were the key factor resulting in one?
I have a fear that continuing this embracing losses will envelop us even more into a culture of losing. I hope it's false though, but we really need to fix this rot and it's not going to be done just by draft picks either (although they will help, the problem lies deeper than that). It is akin to a deep brain tumour, hard to remove.
The sooner we get back winning and beginning to encourage a positive and winning environment, the better it will be for the club. Especially with what ever picks we receive. I would like our next talented youngster to walk into a club full of pride, enthusiasm and the strong will to win. Take those out, and we will not get the best out of him.
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 02:01
The sooner we get back winning and beginning to encourage a positive and winning environment, the better it will be for the club. Especially with what ever picks we receive. I would like our next talented youngster to walk into a club full of pride, enthusiasm and the strong will to win. Take those out, and we will not get the best out of him.
We can start next year. I (unlike some) was not advocating tanking 6 weeks ago but now that it is down to the last game it would be disasterous to win.
Beating Sandringham in round 22 won't give us a winning culture. Watching a giant, gun ruck and super skilled mid running around at training will give the players much more confidence for the future.
We can start next year.
Yeah, like we said one year ago. And two years ago.
I (unlike some) was not advocating tanking 6 weeks ago but now that it is down to the last game it would be disasterous to win.
To what extent? Some are saying it will set us back 3 - 5 years, which I think is a load of BS.
Beating Sandringham in round 22 won't give us a winning culture.
Maybe not, but I'd prefer not to continue a losing one.
Watching a giant, gun ruck and super skilled mid running around at training will give the players much more confidence for the future.
They're raw teenagers who have never been exposed to the big time, and are basically fresh fish. They will only give us inspiration through their actions on the field, which remains to be seen.
Besides, we're always pretty skilled at training it seems. Flawless sometimes, even. But when the pressure is on, when a crowd and a whole nation is watching you - things get a little different. Especially in the mind. ;)
Magnificence
2 Sep 2007, 11:15
Carlton players have little interest in a win I can assure u of that. They are sick of losing and want to get some talent into the place asap.
3 things in life are guaranteed, Death, taxes and a Carlton loss today.
The Carlton players will not try to lose but I give u the tip just like when sides play and are not giving 100% we will be far from our most intensie efforts.
I predict our lowest tackle count for the year as evidence of our lack of effort.
No, it would not.
A 200 gamer would be much better then a meaningless win.
perhaps a 200 gamer comes from the win. maybe one of the fringe players does a few things that changes his career and makes him a top player.
the only thing we should be certain of is that 22 men will wear the navy blue and try to win every game of every season.
No, it would not.
A 200 gamer would be much better then a meaningless win.
I did have some respect for you for a while there...
If we draft this "potential" 200 gamer then he has exactly zero games worth of experience and wont have the experience that will do the club the most good for about 4-5 years... if he plays every game and has no injuries...
He is not going to come into the club and set the world on fire.
As Thrawn said... no win is ever meaningless...the players go out there to win every match. The coaching staff are gee'ing up the players to win every match because if they dont win a good number of games, then they get fired... just as Pago Pago.
bluegal1983
2 Sep 2007, 11:56
Either way it will be a "win" for the club ;)
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 11:59
I did have some respect for you for a while there...
If we draft this "potential" 200 gamer then he has exactly zero games worth of experience and wont have the experience that will do the club the most good for about 4-5 years... if he plays every game and has no injuries...
He is not going to come into the club and set the world on fire.
As Thrawn said... no win is ever meaningless...the players go out there to win every match. The coaching staff are gee'ing up the players to win every match because if they dont win a good number of games, then they get fired... just as Pago Pago.
Where did I say he would star straight away?
prettyboy65
2 Sep 2007, 13:13
he may not be a star straight away, he may never be a star. he could be luke livingston... we wasted pick 4 on luke. provided a few years of dud service. A win is a massive boost in confidence and should be what the club is looking for. every player wants to win. coaching staff want to win. it just that these so called 'fans' are supporting a loss. we win either way but i believe this so called meaningless win is more important
BlueWorld
2 Sep 2007, 13:17
We can start next year. I (unlike some) was not advocating tanking 6 weeks ago but now that it is down to the last game it would be disasterous to win.
Beating Sandringham in round 22 won't give us a winning culture. Watching a giant, gun ruck and super skilled mid running around at training will give the players much more confidence for the future.You mean like murphy & Gibbs- yes that's really inspired them all.:rolleyes:
BlueWorld
2 Sep 2007, 13:19
Carlton players have little interest in a win I can assure u of that. They are sick of losing and want to get some talent into the place asap.
3 things in life are guaranteed, Death, taxes and a Carlton loss today.
The Carlton players will not try to lose but I give u the tip just like when sides play and are not giving 100% we will be far from our most intensie efforts.
I predict our lowest tackle count for the year as evidence of our lack of effort.More talented than they are (they were once called z graders) so they get delisted?:rolleyes:
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 13:27
he may not be a star straight away, he may never be a star. he could be luke livingston... we wasted pick 4 on luke. provided a few years of dud service. A win is a massive boost in confidence and should be what the club is looking for. every player wants to win. coaching staff want to win. it just that these so called 'fans' are supporting a loss. we win either way but i believe this so called meaningless win is more important
There has not been a bad no.1 draft pick in about 12 years. All are still playing. It's a guarantee that no.1 will be a very good player.
The last couple:
Reiwolt
Hodge
Goddard
Cooney
Deledio
Murphy
Gibbs
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 13:28
More talented than they are (they were once called z graders) so they get delisted?:rolleyes:
It depends which players you're talking about. Guys like Scotland would want great young talent at the club.
borissey
2 Sep 2007, 13:32
The morons have been let loose again.
How can a Pick #1 come with experience? What tossbag came up with that argument?
Its talent that we are after. Its talent that we are in dire need of. Its talent that will lift us from a mediocre 9th place to a top 4 spot. If you cannot see that greater probability of being able to challenge the top teams in a few years with another top 5 pick then not only have you had your head in the sand but your butt is hanging out there in the wind for all the opposition to enjoy.
Trying to highlight that it Pick #1 doesn't have experience yet and may only be a potential 200 gamer is just stupid and naive. We need as many potential 200 gamers on our list as we can get.
prettyboy65
2 Sep 2007, 13:32
There has not been a bad no.1 draft pick in about 12 years. All are still playing. It's a guarantee that no.1 will be a very good player.
The last couple:
Reiwolt
Hodge
Goddard
Cooney
Deledio
Murphy
Gibbs
yeh i will give you that. but there is always still that chance that carlton could stuff up. but believe me i want kreuzer. He plays at dandenong stingrays. have watched him play many times. he is a great player with a great kicking and marking ability. he is like an extra midfielder. but i am not sure if we are better off with the win still
borissey
2 Sep 2007, 13:33
You mean like murphy & Gibbs- yes that's really inspired them all.:rolleyes:
You don't think it has lifted the players to have 2 young guns come out there and impact like they have?:confused:
Dude Lebowski
2 Sep 2007, 14:09
All this crap about wanting to trade Fevola for draft picks and now suddenly draft picks are not the be all, end all. This is a free pick without giving nothing in return.
doh its me
2 Sep 2007, 14:15
Melbourne have a huge incentive to lose also........I am not sure why everyone thinks Carlton will want to lose more, or will be any better at trying to lose.
If Melb win they get picks 4,20
If they lose picks 2,18,20
Bluebear
2 Sep 2007, 14:24
Melbourne have a huge incentive to lose also........I am not sure why everyone thinks Carlton will want to lose more, or will be any better at trying to lose.
If Melb win they get picks 4,20
If they lose picks 2,18,20
Melbourne think they are a good team who should be playing finals.
They will want to smash us and take that buzz into pre-season ahead of a second round pick.
This is what they think IMO.
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 14:28
Melbourne think they are a good team who should be playing finals.
They will want to smash us and take that buzz into pre-season ahead of a second round pick.
This is what they think IMO.
Hopefully you're right.
TBH a second round pick in a shallow draft isn't worth losing for.
The overwhelming majority of Blues fans on this site seem to want to see the club drop the points tomorrow for obvious reasons. That's completely understandable - not just for the future of the club in having the extra pick, but maybe also because of an element of feeling like you've had a bit of a victory in '07 (not meant to be condescending in any way, but the element of needing to barrack for something for the betterment of the club).
Taking into account that a number of players would be trying their guts out to impress the new coach and stay in the squad, and that Ratten would want to prove something as a coach, do you think the players and matchday staff genuinely want to win tomorrow?
If so, the benefit of a victory could be enormous for your club for confidence, morale and just a tiny bit of momentum heading into '08. Port notched up late season wins in 2000 and it was the platform for our success in the next 4 years. To me, any of those things may prove to be more important than an extra draft pick.
Thoughts?
Firstly thanks for nothing starting another thread about this game and Carlton's attitude to it. Don't you think there were maybe a couple of other places to put it?
Secondly thanks for nothing getting all the Carlton supporters to start fighting again about this....though in fairness, its not very hard!
Thirdly, trying to state that the "vast majority" want them to lose is evidence you haven't been here long.
For your information, the majority of Carlton supporters want to win AND they want a high pick. Obviously these two wishes are mutually exclusive.
And thats why this is a troll.
BlueWorld
2 Sep 2007, 14:45
You don't think it has lifted the players to have 2 young guns come out there and impact like they have?:confused:Lifted them to what? Another season where we can't win more than 4 games for the 3rd straight year?:rolleyes:
Richo is God
2 Sep 2007, 14:51
carlton are pathetic
carlton are pathetic
Thanks spoon boy.
doh its me
2 Sep 2007, 15:01
Hopefully you're right.
TBH a second round pick in a shallow draft isn't worth losing for.
A top 2 pick gets them 1 of Cotchin/Kreuzer......a pretty decent incentive when added to the 2nd rnd pick
Bluebear
2 Sep 2007, 15:11
carlton are pathetic
Actually two things spring to mind here.
We improved at least one position this year while turning over our list. You on the other hand went backwards at a rate of kotts after recruiting "top up" players. Seems the "holding pattern" that was predicted was overly optimistic rather than pessimistic as first thought.
No matter how pathetic you might think we are..........we beat you, which must make you worse than pathetic.Enjoy your spoon.:thumbsu:
AndyWalkersGirl
2 Sep 2007, 15:25
I was thinking about this last night. Mark Austin is making his debut. What a horrible game to be debuting in, with all this uproar of Carlton not wanting to win.
Do you think, with so many players player to prove themselves, that they will be going out there half-heartedly, deliberately aiming to lose? I highly doubt it. You think Mark Austin will want to not give his best on his debut? I doubt it. IT could be the last game for a few of the boys perhaps, you think they want to have a shocking last game? Doubt that too.
The only people that actually want to lose are the people who are watching from the sidelines, with two 18 year olds in the front of their minds.
AndyWalkersGirl
2 Sep 2007, 15:26
You mean like murphy & Gibbs- yes that's really inspired them all.:rolleyes:
Right, i am glad that someone else has come out and said it. :thumbsu:
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 15:33
Right, i am glad that someone else has come out and said it. :thumbsu:
They will be inspired in 3 years when both are superstars.
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 15:34
I was thinking about this last night. Mark Austin is making his debut. What a horrible game to be debuting in, with all this uproar of Carlton not wanting to win.
Do you think, with so many players player to prove themselves, that they will be going out there half-heartedly, deliberately aiming to lose? I highly doubt it. You think Mark Austin will want to not give his best on his debut? I doubt it. IT could be the last game for a few of the boys perhaps, you think they want to have a shocking last game? Doubt that too.
The only people that actually want to lose are the people who are watching from the sidelines, with two 18 year olds in the front of their minds.
Of course the players will try. It's up to Ratts to ensure a loss.
AndyWalkersGirl
2 Sep 2007, 15:39
They will be inspired in 3 years when both are superstars.
The point is, they dont come as superstars. They come to our club just as any other kid, keen to learn, and needing to find their feet.
doh its me
2 Sep 2007, 17:20
The point is, they dont come as superstars. They come to our club just as any other kid, keen to learn, and needing to find their feet.
They come with a lot more natural ability than most later picks, and are the likely superstars of the future. They still need to develop fitness, strength and skills, but there is no doubt the cream of the talent falls early in the draft the vast majority of the time
I hope not but I would think the players would.
We must, must, must not win this game.
hope Melbourne try even harder not to win :thumbsu:
we'll walk away with the 4 points hope all this
makes Carlton all More determain to win.
Richo is God
2 Sep 2007, 19:03
Thanks spoon boy.
mate, your losing on purpose just so u can get pp1. good luck in the future when all you have is a losing culture
carlton are pathetic
anything goes after what the league did to us. i'm sure you were laughing at us then, sinking the boots. just think of it as payback for goddard.
mate, your losing on purpose just so u can get pp1. good luck in the future when all you have is a losing culture
what about your? what are your doing?
mate, your losing on purpose just so u can get pp1. good luck in the future when all you have is a losing culture
Whatever you reckon spoon boy.
You're talking about one of the teams with the most premierships in the competition!
25 years of sweet eff ay for your dodgy little uncooked prawn of a club and you come on here talking up a good fight.
But that's all it is.
marcmurphy3
2 Sep 2007, 21:39
We have a flag winning culture. FFS we even won to Flags (PSP) while we were shit