Premiership Window has Closed; Craig Facing Huge Decisions

[Drummond]

Words can’t adequately describe how much frustration I have after listening to the torture that was Neil Craig’s interview on FiveAA this evening. I was in attendance on Saturday and I endured one of the most shattering defeats I’ve experienced. But before I talk about the future and where we’re heading, I want to have my say in the Massie v Franklin match-up.

It would be nice, for once; if Craig could actually come out and admit he may have got it wrong. As evident by the letter Trigg sent out to the members, the club is still taking the “we’ll learn from it” mentality and we as supporters continue to be fed the same tripe we’ve been hearing for years. The problem is, if the club did actually learn from the mistakes they make, we wouldn’t find ourselves in virtually identical situations every 12 months.

Craig’s refusal to admit that Massie was the wrong option on Franklin is staggering. I personally wouldn’t have started Massie on Franklin, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for starting with him. But Franklin looked threatening from the outset and once he stated to get on a roll something had to be done. He had 4 goals at the main break, and yet who does Massie stand to begin the third quarter on? None other than Lance Franklin. Neil Craig’s stubbornness and pure stupidity went of a long way towards ending our season prematurely. Sure we might have won if Burton used his brain for once, or if Thompson had kept the ball in play, but the game was lost in the coaching box. Craig continuously harps on about how he doesn’t like shifting players because he likes to show faith in his players. Well Neil, this is the AFL, not Auskick, and if a match-up is painfully in need of change then for once put your pride aside, admit you got it wrong and change it! The problem is that once he’s got something in his mind, it doesn’t change and we have to live with the outcome no matter what.

I’ve read a lot of claims that Franklin would’ve destroyed anyone on Saturday so therefore Craig had no choice but to persist with Massie but I struggle to comprehend this. Why not try Stevens on him, or perhaps Bock who was completely shutting down Boyle. Boyle is their 3rd or 4th choice in attack, so why leave Bock on him? There’s no telling how anyone else would’ve fared, and for all we know Franklin might have booted 10 against Bock, but you simply have to try something!

Towards the end of today’s interview, Graham Cornes put forward the big question to Craig. “If you played the Hawks in the Grand Final, who would get first crack at Franklin?” Craig replied with, “Massie”. Just days after Franklin booted 7 on Massie and got the Hawks over the line in one of the greatest finals debuts in football history, he actually had the audacity to come out and say he would start with Massie. How can anyone have faith in the future of the club when you hear responses like this from the coach? Quite simply bewildering! So the standard letter from Trigg telling us that “we’ll learn from this” is completely inane. I would’ve thought learning would be identifying glaring match-ups that went so terribly wrong and realizing the need for change.


To Rebuild or not to Rebuild?


After hearing his press conference and his interview on FiveAA, perhaps what are even more concerning are Craig’s thoughts in relation to where our squad is at. Does anyone genuinely believe that our squad is good enough to win next year’s premiership? Geelong are clearly head and shoulders above anyone else, and young teams like Port, Hawthorn, Collingwood and to a lesser extend Brisbane are all showing a great deal of improvement. And then there’s West Coast who will finish top 4 next year and Sydney who should easily make the 8.

Consider that at least a third of our first choice players are 28 or older, and most will retire within the next 2 seasons. We still rely on Goodwin, Edwards, McLeod, Bassett, Burton, Torney and co far too much. To say that we are still a genuine premiership threat is a fantasy. Sure we had a terrible run with injuries this year and if everything went our way we would probably still be fighting for the flag, but add that to a combination of poor coaching and not enough match winners all caused the window to be shut. I’m not a big believer in the premiership window, but the fact is we had our chance and we blew it. 2005 and 2006 were the years we had the chance to win another premiership but we missed our opportunity because we faulted when it mattered. Stop clinging to the hope that we’re still a chance to steal a flag and realise we need to shift the focus to the future. The sooner this happens the better.

Craig and co need to realise that a cleanout is required, not necessarily a big one but one large enough to take care of the essentials. For too long we’ve carried mediocre players and been too careful in handling the youngsters. Are we ruthless enough to cull the players that have no improvement left and will never take us anywhere? With any luck, the following will not be on the list next season:

RETIRE:

• Ricciuto.

TRADE:

• Burton. At 29 and with dodgy knees, what else can Burton really achieve? Not a lot, so it’s time to trade him while he still might be worth something.

• Jericho. Outsiders might be keen because on the surface he’s done little wrong this year, but it’s pretty evident nothing has changed.

• Meesen. Won’t have a choice with Meesen as he wants out. Unfortunately not much has gone right with Meese and we seem to prefer Maric/Griffin.

• McGregor. Should be in our best 22 but for one reason or another Craig dislikes him. Rumours are he wants out and fair enough too.

DELIST:

• Perrie. Enough is enough, he must go. No point having an old, average at best forward halting the development of Tippett and Sellar, our two most crucial prospects.

• Doughty. We know he can play and find the ball, but we would be better served getting games into Douglas, Vince, Campbell and Mackay.

• Biglands. The easy decision would be to retain him, but would we be keeping him because we truly need him or because he’s worked hard on a comeback? IMO it would be the latter.

Some might argue this is change for the sake of change but it’s simply cleaning out the dead wood and making room for the youngsters to develop. Out of the guys listed above, how much would we really miss them…? Other than McGregor who seemingly wants out, Burton is the only one considered a first 22 player so you’re only removing fringe players.

About midway through the year the debate rose about whether to turn to youth or continue with the same old guys in the hope of making the finals and getting a miracle. Some, myself included, said we were only going to be making up the numbers and that’s exactly what eventuated. So what exactly did we learn from this season 2007?

• We hesitate in playing the youngsters due to a fear of the unknown,
• We still have a heavy reliance on the old guys,
• We’re still trying to develop an effective forward structure that appears to be impossible,
• The current squad, as it stands today, won’t win us a flag.

So in light of this I put forward the question to Neil Craig:

How can the current squad, 12 months older and with the declining output from some of our senior players, possibly improve significantly enough to win the premiership next year?

Realistically, we can’t. If we didn’t get the job done in previous years we’re sure as heck not going to get it done in 2008. So then we MUST determine what direction the club is to take and right now we have a choice. The first option is to play youth by putting games into the youngsters we’ve drafted over the past 2-3 years. And then there’s the other option which is continue to play the experienced types like Biglands, Doughty and Perrie. What would this achieve, except of course for another season of scraping into the finals and enduring another year without any real development? We can’t let this happen. We need to establish that the current list is in desperate need of change, and that the same guys we’ve been relying on to take us to our 3rd flag simply won’t get us there. It’s time for the next generation. Let’s hope those who make the tough decisions realise this before it’s too late.

[Southerntakeover]

Did you spend your whole red carded time drafting threads on word?

Theres not much here thats not being discussed elsewhere.

Edit:

Ill address it anyway...

Look, i hate the concept of a premiership window, and i honestly dont think it would take too much to change for us to contend again next year. Franklin misses his kick on Saturday and wed still be fancying our chances of making the grand final. That in a year where everything that could possibly went wrong did. A better run with injury could see us right up there again next year.

That doesnt mean we dont turn over players, and attempt to ensure we've got a core of young players that can see us being sucessful in the future. What we shouldnt do though is panic, start declaring 'rebuilding phases', and basically create ourselves and excuse to suck.

[King Elvis]

The first half of your post Drum, I agree with completely.

To basically completely refuse that it may have been a mistake to keep Massie on Franklin is unbelievable; especially, as you said, in light of the letter from Trigg saying the Club must learn from it's mistake.

Players like Mattner and McGregor fall out of favour because they need to be more FLEXIBLE, and learn from their mistakes - yet they doesn't seem to apply to the Senior Coach.

Disagree with your second part though; if we have a fully fit and firing squad next year, I think we can be in the Top 6. If we can find ourselves a decent forward, I think we can challenge for the Four.

For all the ****ups and close losses this year, we were a game out of the 4, and 20 seconds out of the second week of the finals - with the injury list we had, that's an amazing effort.

[turbo182]

Fair Post, Drummond, and I tend to agree with you re; Craig's stubborness.

Burton will not be traded. And nor should he be.

Biglands will not be delisted. Arguable whether he should be.

Jericho, i think, will be kept. 95% of you would suggest he's a monty to get traded/delisted, but I think he'll be kept for one more year on the promise he showed against Carlton. Talented prick.

Mostly Agree on the rest. Think Perrie will likely retire and become a club ambassador or the like. Great guy who gave all he could.

We should draft King Leonidas of Sparta. He's like VB, but not quite as good.

[King Elvis]

We should draft King Leonidas of Sparta. He's like VB, but not quite as good.

That is Madness!

[turbo182]

That is Madness!

Madness?:eek:

THIS IS ADELAIDE (under Craigy)

[King Elvis]

Just because you kiddies think the decision to play Massie on Franklin was wrong, doesn't mean it was.

For someone who carries on like an absolute tool, you have no right to be condescending towards others.

But I'll bite, us thinking it was wrong doesn't make it so, but the seven goals and the fact we aren't playing this weekend suggests it was.

[Asgardian]

We should draft King Leonidas of Sparta. He's like VB, but not quite as good.

Isn't he a little bit dead & dusty? .. ;)

[- PC -]

Put me in the ''window never closes'' camp.

If any AFC coach came out and said '' we will aim for 12th and a few draft picks while turning over dead wood'' I will start the uproar

You should always be aiming , as a minimum , for a spot in the 8 , as we saw this year , Geelong aside, the rest of the 8 were pretty evenly matched

Apart from Burton and Biglands, I dont see too many bad choices in your named players and wouldnt get too upset if those eventuated

[Crowked]

IMO there isnt a team in the comp we couldnt have beaten on our day this year, even with all the injury concerns weve had. We beat the #2 team twice, and we challenged the unbackable favourite in both games. We thrashed the #4 & 5 teams during the year too. IMO, with a half decent run with injuries, some good additions to the squad and the smallest drop of good luck, something we havent had one ounce of this year, we could win the flag next year. The premiership window is and will remian open.

[-CG-]

Fair good read there drummond, as most have said already, agree with the first part..not so much the second part. I reckon we can give it a crack next year.

After the saints game earlier this year, where there was no move made (from memory) to move Massie off Riewoldt, I really thought Craig would've learnt from that. Riewoldt only kicked the two goals, but had 20 kicks and took 18 marks.

[ROOno.1]

I hate the saying "premiership window". Erks me. It doesn't actually mean anything. A clubs window has never closed because it doesn't exist.

[claf-43]

I hate the saying "premiership window". Erks me. It doesn't actually mean anything. A clubs window has never closed because it doesn't exist.
Yeah it does, if you top players are all older it and leave all at once (Carlton) it makes a huge difference.

[ROOno.1]

Yeah it does, if you top players are all older it and leave all at once (Carlton) it makes a huge difference.

I think you'll find that carltons problems extend further than older players leaving. I.e. Salary cap scandal, being fined over 1 million dollars, and heres the biggie - loosing draft picks.

[claf-43]

I think you'll find that carltons problems extend further than older players leaving. I.e. Salary cap scandal, being fined over 1 million dollars, and heres the biggie - loosing draft picks.
You cant replace half a dozen top players like your midfield just in the blink of an eye.

Craig sacking Hart and Clarke was a great move in retrospect, and Im sure others agree, both have struggled this year.

You gotta continuously turn over the list bit by bit. Port seem to do that well with their key defenders, Paxman, Montgomery, Bishop, Wakelin etc all went at diff times.

Obviously you cant delist/trade your top midfielders, so that makes it a little more awkward, unless some play till their mid 30s....

[KUNG FU]

This my attempt at walking the middle line between the for and against case on the premiership window in 2008:

If a team is truly a contender for the premiership and considering the general evenness of the competition, then surely playing some youngsters is not going to seriously affect our chances at a flag. Did Port compromise their chances by playing Krakouer, pick 39, about 5'1 and 120 pounds? Did the Hawks compromise their chances by having a team almost entirely comprised of 21 year olds? Did Collingwood compromise their chances by playing Goldsack? Did every single team other than us risk losing games because they played their first round picks? Would playing Vince and Pfeiffer over Doughty and Massie really affect our shot at the flag, if we are a real shot? I'd rather get smashed firing & rolling the dice than lose by a two goals every week scraping together the same mediocre 22 players.

[claf-43]

This my attempt at walking the middle line between the for and against case on the premiership window in 2008:

If a team is truly a contender for the premiership and considering the general evenness of the competition, then surely playing some youngsters is not going to seriously affect our chances at a flag. Did Port compromise their chances by playing Krakouer, pick 39, about 5'1 and 120 pounds? Did the Hawks compromise their chances by having a team almost entirely comprised of 21 year olds? Did Collingwood compromise their chances by playing Goldsack? Did every single team other than us risk losing games because they played their first round picks? Would playing Vince and Pfeiffer over Doughty and Massie really affect our shot at the flag, if we are a real shot? I'd rather get smashed firing & rolling the dice than lose by a two goals every week scraping together the same mediocre 22 players.

You got some good points, what will be interesting is to see how Carlton go next year.

With all them top draft picks, who will obviously get a good run.

But they lost Lappin, Kouta, possibly Whitnall, Fevola and with Stevens injury they really are lacking any leadership/senior players.

It's all well and good having all the young players playing, but their at their best when they are mixed in with older ones (like Selwood and Pearce for example....) to learn from.

[SpringChoke]

You got some good points, what will be interesting is to see how Carlton go next year.

With all them top draft picks, who will obviously get a good run.

But they lost Lappin, Kouta, possibly Whitnall, Fevola and with Stevens injury they really are lacking any leadership/senior players.

It's all well and good having all the young players playing, but their at their best when they are mixed in with older ones (like Selwood and Pearce for example....) to learn from.

I honestly don't see Carlton being a genuine finals, let alone premiership threat, for at least 5 years. Like us (even less so), they have minimal quality between the ages of 24-29.

[jo172]

Am I the only one who thinks the "Cyclical Football" theory is ****ed?

I think **** it, try and win the premiership every year. Look at Port, most of us had written them off at the start of the year, but they put their head down and now their a game away from the GF. Just try our best every game and the young players will inevitably push their way through.

Remember 2004. We had all written ourselves off for the next 3 years! We then went on to challenge for the flag for the next two years and a decent year this year.

"Rebuilding Years" are just excuses for perpetueal shitness, namely Carlton. We must try and win every game. Yes this may result in short term mediocrity, but it instills pride in the playing line up. Look at the Roos and the Pies this year, neither of them have faced sustained rebuilding periods. They each had a shitty year but did not bow or relent.

[claf-43]

I honestly don't see Carlton being a genuine finals, let alone premiership threat, for at least 5 years. Like us (even less so), they have minimal quality between the ages of 24-29.
That's just it, neither do I, and Richmond are in a similar boat.

If people are gonna name Hawthorn as a example they gotta realise that the Hawks had quality senior players such as, Smith, Crawford, Vandeberg, Croad, Dixon, Guerra, and maybe Hodge. and Everitt and others before that

They didnt just wipe out everyone at once.

Port obviously are the same, they still have a dozen or so Premiership players and they fed some youngsters at a time in their.

Brisbane likewise, Brown, Power, Black, Bradshaw, Charman, Notting, Johsnon, Scott, Copeland, Lappin, McDonald etc

[KUNG FU]

It's all well and good having all the young players playing, but their at their best when they are mixed in with older ones (like Selwood and Pearce for example....) to learn from.

Which is exactly why we need to blood some players now. The youngsters are going to learn a lot more from our current senior players than they are from our next group.

[claf-43]

Which is exactly why we need to blood some players now. The youngsters are going to learn a lot more from our current senior players than they are from our next group.
Spot on.

I reckon 2004-2005 caused alot of these problems. esp 2005.

Reason being, The Crows had a dream run with injuries in 05, they didnt get to blood many new players that year (if any).

The players that were touted as future key players were either hindered in their development (Jericho a great example) or traded (Watts - a smart move in retrosepct though...)

The players that were lucky to get a game that year all but cemented their spot all year. That was the year that some of these others had to be bought in earlier to develop.

Having the injuries that were forced upon the Power in 06 obviously did some blessings in disguise, we have basically changed the whole squad bar the rucks.

[jo172]

I'm just going to keep repeating myself until someone takes notice. As long as the managment of the club doesn't turn to complete shit a la Carlton with a decent run with injuries every team is a top 4 and therefore flag chance every year.

Look at Melbourne/Bullies/Freo this year! They were flag chances at the beginning of the year. Whereas Port/Roos were supposed to be coming down te bottom.

The AFL is alot more random then we expect. The worst possible thing to do is to blow it all up and start again. Let young blokes earn their place in the team. However once they have earned it (Pfeiffer this year) bloody well make sure they play. And not just play 1/2 a game, but for a significant proportion.

Next year is not all doom and gloom people. We will improve next year.

[mymansyd]

Good clubs don't need to rebuild (isn't drafting and trading at the end of each season a rebuild-of-sorts anyway?) or bother with over-used jargon like the premiership window.

How many people thought at the end of last year that Port, Geelong and one of Hawthorn and the Kangaroos would be playing off in the prelim finals this year? Not many, I would bet. How many of these teams would have been considered to be within their so-called 'premiership window'?

2008 will be yet another season in which the AFC will just go out and try and win every game they play. That's the way I hope my club always approaches every season. The premierhip window should always be open, as far as I'm concerned.

[claf-43]

I think having the excellent midfield and the obvious benefits in playing at AAMI 12 times a year masks potential problems. Thats the problem.

You could finish mid table, but that year might not be as successful as a 10-12th for a Victorian team.

I'd be fascinated to see where the Crows are at in the next 2-5 years.

[Crowked]

Am I the only one who thinks the "Cyclical Football" theory is ****ed?

I think **** it, try and win the premiership every year. Look at Port, most of us had written them off at the start of the year, but they put their head down and now their a game away from the GF. Just try our best every game and the young players will inevitably push their way through.

Remember 2004. We had all written ourselves off for the next 3 years! We then went on to challenge for the flag for the next two years and a decent year this year.

"Rebuilding Years" are just excuses for perpetueal shitness, namely Carlton. We must try and win every game. Yes this may result in short term mediocrity, but it instills pride in the playing line up. Look at the Roos and the Pies this year, neither of them have faced sustained rebuilding periods. They each had a shitty year but did not bow or relent.

Spot on Jo. Its not cyclical, its a constant evolution for clubs with a professional approach to list management.

Mark my words, we will be challenging for a flag again next year.

[Capitalist]

I think having the excellent midfield and the obvious benefits in playing at AAMI 12 times a year masks potential problems. Thats the problem.

You could finish mid table, but that year might not be as successful as a 10-12th for a Victorian team.

I'd be fascinated to see where the Crows are at in the next 2-5 years.


I agree - finishing 8th has saved the club a lot of soul searching.

[claf-43]

The other benefit from a bottoming out year is the soul searching it does at the Club, its not the higher draft picks that make immediate impacts.... I reckon its a combination of the following things:

change in coaching panels (maybe new coach)
soul searching from the leadership group
extra pressure from media to improve quick (esp with WA and SA)
self pride

What has a few top draft picks done for Carlton lately? their worse now then they were a couple years ago IMHO.

Draft picks are a longer term fix, its the attitude of the players and coaches that could and should have to change if the club bottoms out.

And that's where I believe the quicker fixes come from.

[Wayne's-World]

Words can’t adequately describe how much frustration I have after listening to the torture that was Neil Craig’s interview on FiveAA this evening.

I’ve read a lot of claims that Franklin would’ve destroyed anyone on Saturday so therefore Craig had no choice but to persist with Massie but I struggle to comprehend this.

Towards the end of today’s interview, Graham Cornes put forward the big question to Craig. “If you played the Hawks in the Grand Final, who would get first crack at Franklin?” Craig replied with, “Massie”. glaring match-ups that went so terribly wrong and realizing the need for change.


After hearing his press conference and his interview on FiveAA, perhaps what are even more concerning are Craig’s thoughts in relation to where our squad is at.

Does anyone genuinely believe that our squad is good enough to win next year’s premiership?

Consider that at least a third of our first choice players are 28 or older, and most will retire within the next 2 seasons. We still rely on Goodwin, Edwards, McLeod, Bassett, Burton, Torney and co far too much.

Craig and co need to realise that a cleanout is required, not necessarily a big one but one large enough to take care of the essentials.

• We hesitate in playing the youngsters due to a fear of the unknown,
• We still have a heavy reliance on the old guys,
• We’re still trying to develop an effective forward structure that appears to be impossible,
• The current squad, as it stands today, won’t win us a flag.

So in light of this I put forward the question to Neil Craig:

How can the current squad, 12 months older and with the declining output from some of our senior players, possibly improve significantly enough to win the premiership next year?

Realistically, we can’t.

Drummond I enjoy your posts ......but with respect on this subject your immaturity shines through ....and perhaps a bit of rose colored galsses ;)

I've read so much dribble on this forum since last week on the massie match-up ......I've watched the replay about 3 times and Massies performance in the main was great on Franklin.

The pass from Hodge and others no-one was going to stop and frankly when champions have their day ....Carey, Roo, Macleod, Judd ....well frankly they're unstoppable. It has always been about the process of stopping supply oy pressuring the kicker so Franklin doesn't get the ball lace out.

Who should get the job next time ......well I would probably have said Gill with a bit more experience ....but massie was not bad.

On list regeneration

1. What do you think Craig has been doing this year .....how many young players have got games and do they fast track development in winning sides versus losing sides .....needs to be a balance

We're playing: Griffin, Maric, Vince, Van Berlo, Knights, Douglas, Gill, Meesen ....all of whom are under 50 games.

2. You do not clean out lists in years when it is a week draft and trading has proven that like for like trades do not do much.
Five-Six changes per year is sufficient on a 38 man list ........thats 16% turnover each year.

3. Where was Geelong on the ladder last season .....where are they this season?

Did Geelong have to cleanout to get that rise ....or did they have to keep players fit and on the ground and get the team motivated to play winning footy.

Add 4 players to the Crows side next season and see the change in Dynamics of the team ........yes older players are a year older but the inexperienced players of Rielly, Knights, Douglas and Van Berlo are a year older and more experienced .....called team evolution and the Crows do it well IMO.
Tippett to FF, Welsh to a flank, Gill CHF, Boch CHB all season , Douglas and Porplyzia into the midfield and either a draft pick or trade introduced and the whole dynamics has changed.

Can we win the flag next year ....ABSOLUTELY .......will we .....well wouldn't think next year but year after with some luck I can't see why not.

You have to realise Drummond that playing heaps of juniors has not worked as a model for any team ....St Kilda proved that.

Getting the mix of older experienced heads with up and coming juniors ....maybe introducing up to 3 new players each season into a winning culture is the way.
Craig knows this and the Crows as I said have some very experienced footy people within the club.

[NikkiNoo]

I'm just going to keep repeating myself until someone takes notice. As long as the managment of the club doesn't turn to complete shit a la Carlton with a decent run with injuries every team is a top 4 and therefore flag chance every year.

Look at Melbourne/Bullies/Freo this year! They were flag chances at the beginning of the year. Whereas Port/Roos were supposed to be coming down te bottom.

The AFL is alot more random then we expect. The worst possible thing to do is to blow it all up and start again. Let young blokes earn their place in the team. However once they have earned it (Pfeiffer this year) bloody well make sure they play. And not just play 1/2 a game, but for a significant proportion.

Next year is not all doom and gloom people. We will improve next year.

Good points Jo - I don't believe in this cycle or window stuff.

Each team should aim to win the premiership each year.

Those that have come up with the cycle theory or the premiership window are often the media, who need something to write about or coaches/clubs as way of explaining why their teams are crap and providing a reason for their supporters to keep following them.

[SpringChoke]

Great post Drummond. Spot on. The time to start rebuilding is next year. If we wait another year we are setting ourselves up for a huge blowout. Can some games into the youngsters while Macca, Goody, Edwards, Torney, Bassett are still effective.

Interesting how some use the Port model of how clubs, and inturn us, can get away without a complete rebuild. Unfortunately, this example doesn't apply to us as we don't have the luxury of the ilk of C Cornes, K Cornes, Motlop, Brogan, S Burgoyne, Tredrea in the 24-29 age group.

Due to having to make up ground to cover years of wasting top draft picks, I think we will probably spend at least 5-7 years in the football wilderness. Or if we can have a couple of phenomenal years in the draft ( Port 2006) we could be back in contention in 3 years.

[KUNG FU]

I've read so much dribble on this forum since last week on the massie match-up ......I've watched the replay about 3 times and Massies performance in the main was great on Franklin.

There's no questioning Massie's ability, effort and work. He was the wrong type of player on Franklin. That is the real issue.

[McLeod23]

Due to having to make up ground to cover years of wasting top draft picks, I think we will probably spend at least 5-7 years in the football wilderness. Or if we can have a couple of phenomenal years in the draft ( Port 2006) we could be back in contention in 3 years.

Rubbish.

We have Rutten and Bock as possibly the best FB/CHB combination going around for the next five years. We have some quality midfielders who will be around for the next 7-8 years. We need to sort out our forwardline, no doubt - but we WILL find top-line talent out of Sellar, Tippett, Hentschel and Taylor.

We will make the 8 next year and push hard for the top 4.

[SpringChoke]

There's no questioning Massie's ability, effort and work. He was the wrong type of player on Franklin. That is the real issue.

Unbelievble isn't it. You have to hand it to the AFC spindoctors, at least they're persistant. Franklin kicks seven in a final in one of the most dominant displays in recent history and yet some from within the club still think it was the right matchup.
On the other hand if Craigy still thinks Massie was the best option for Buddy, doesn't that then say that Kris Massie has just played one of the worst matches by a defender in recent finals history. Don't they call that hanging the player out to dry.:rolleyes:

[SpringChoke]

Rubbish.

We have Rutten and Bock as possibly the best FB/CHB combination going around for the next five years. We have some quality midfielders who will be around for the next 7-8 years. We need to sort out our forwardline, no doubt - but we WILL find top-line talent out of Sellar, Tippett, Hentschel and Taylor.

We will make the 8 next year and push hard for the top 4.

If alot goes right (hardly any injuries )we are still a slim chance at a flag next year and then in 2009 we will have a major drop off and spend a few years in the lower half of the competition.

Even if Tippett and Sellar do turn into to top forwards it's going to take at least 3 years (on average ) before they can dominate a game. Our fortunes over the next few years largely depend on how Trent H recovers from injury.

I reckon N Bock is the most overrated player on this board. I remember at the start of the year how some were rating him as a possible 1st tier forward.:eek:

[CrowHop]

If alot goes right (hardly any injuries )we are still a slim chance at a flag next year and then in 2009 we will have a major drop off and spend a few years in the lower half of the competition.

Even if Tippett and Sellar do turn into to top forwards it's going to take at least 3 years (on average ) before they can dominate a game. Our fortunes over the next few years largely depend on how Trent H recovers from injury.

I reckon N Bock is the most overrated player on this board. I remember at the start of the year how some were rating him as a possible 1st tier forward.:eek:

I sort of agree, but not with the major drop off thing. I don't think we need a clean out of major proportions, but we do need to push the youngsters on the list that have been around for 2 or 3 years. A lot will depend on what improvement we can get out of the likes of Campbell, Vince, Douglas, Knights, Gill, Griffen, Maric and Pfeiffer. Mattner had an off year so greater output from him would also be a bonus. This are the players I would be looking at to take us forward.

All of these players showed good SANFL/AFL form this year and could step up and offer us something next year. 2006 draftees are probably a bit too far away from offering us anything close to consistent performances.

Bock is a good player, but yes I agree he is overrated.

[Drummond]

On list regeneration

1. What do you think Craig has been doing this year .....how many young players have got games and do they fast track development in winning sides versus losing sides .....needs to be a balance

We're playing: Griffin, Maric, Vince, Van Berlo, Knights, Douglas, Gill, Meesen ....all of whom are under 50 games.
We saw 5 players make their debuts this season however Hinge was the only one below the age of 21. Why do we wait so long to introduce players? Not mentioning the fact that Hinge, Campbell and Meesen combined for 4 games and averaged about 40% game time. So when the did play, the weren’t exactly given a great deal of responsibility.

As for the list of names above, here’s how many games each played:

van Berlo 23
Knights 22
Griffin 16
Douglas 13
Gill 7
Vince 6
Maric 6
Meesen 2

VB was already a first choice player entering the season but it was good he got a complete season under his belt. Knights was always going to be the big improver as long as he got the games; everyone could see he was too good for the SANFL and this was the only choice. Griffin played 16 games which will benefit him going forward, but Maric actually played less than he did in 2006 so you could make a case that he went backwards.

2. You do not clean out lists in years when it is a week draft and trading has proven that like for like trades do not do much.
Five-Six changes per year is sufficient on a 38 man list ........thats 16% turnover each year.
So you refuse to clean out the list because it’s a so called weak draft? Perhaps you don’t make excessive changes, but IMO you don’t keep the guys with very little to offer going forward due to a perceived weak draft. You do what has to be done, weak draft or not.

3. Where was Geelong on the ladder last season .....where are they this season?

Did Geelong have to cleanout to get that rise ....or did they have to keep players fit and on the ground and get the team motivated to play winning footy.
As I’ve said before, this comparison doesn’t hold much weight. Over the off season Geelong had several changes in coaching and administration personnel. They also fired their fitness coach from 2006 and had completely different fitness and medical teams this year. So Geelong’s incredible change of fortunes this season is due to more than just having a fit side or a motivated team.

Add 4 players to the Crows side next season and see the change in Dynamics of the team ........yes older players are a year older but the inexperienced players of Rielly, Knights, Douglas and Van Berlo are a year older and more experienced .....called team evolution and the Crows do it well IMO.
Tippett to FF, Welsh to a flank, Gill CHF, Boch CHB all season , Douglas and Porplyzia into the midfield and either a draft pick or trade introduced and the whole dynamics has changed.

Can we win the flag next year ....ABSOLUTELY .......will we .....well wouldn't think next year but year after with some luck I can't see why not.

You have to realise Drummond that playing heaps of juniors has not worked as a model for any team ....St Kilda proved that.

Getting the mix of older experienced heads with up and coming juniors ....maybe introducing up to 3 new players each season into a winning culture is the way.
Craig knows this and the Crows as I said have some very experienced footy people within the club.
Who said I want to play everyone under the age of 22 this season? All I'm saying is that whenever the choice is to be made about whether to go with guys like Doughty and Perrie or Pfeiffer and Tippett, we should always choose the latter group. Remove the players that are hindering the development of the youngsters and who have no improvement left in their games (Biglands and Perrie for example). Because if we don’t I guarantee you that if we’re sitting just outside the 8 by the half way point of 2008, we will play the experienced guys over the youngsters in order to have another unsuccessful crack at a flag.

Are we more interested in holding ground or in moving forward?

[- PC -]

van Berlo 23
Knights 22
Griffin 16
Douglas 13
Gill 7
Vince 6
Maric 6
Meesen 2 That to me is brilliant list management. Griffin 16 and Douglas 13 shows that the AFC see these 2 as good prospects. Gill at 7 is about right, considering his hamstring issues , I reckon he may have been at 16 games as well. Vince surprised me at 6 ... would like to see his game time.

Really to me the only 2 players who could consider themselves stiff are Meesen and Campbell. We know Meesens reasons ie 12 week knee injury, Campbell I would hope gets more go next year along with Pfeiffer. If Meesen stays then he has to knock out the 2 in front of him

So you refuse to clean out the list because it’s a so called weak draft? Perhaps you don’t make excessive changes, but IMO you don’t keep the guys with very little to offer going forward due to a perceived weak draft. You do what has to be done, weak draft or not.Why people will say '' dont clean the list'' in a ''weak draft'' is because its better the devil you know than the one you dont. Is it worth getting rid of a 28 yr old Doughty if you are going to pick up a 19 yr old Doughty?



Are we more interested in holding ground or in moving forward?
Im interested in winning a flag

[Wayne's-World]

Who said I want to play everyone under the age of 22 this season? All I'm saying is that whenever the choice is to be made about whether to go with guys like Doughty and Perrie or Pfeiffer and Tippett, we should always choose the latter group. Remove the players that are hindering the development of the youngsters and who have no improvement left in their games (Biglands and Perrie for example). Because if we don’t I guarantee you that if we’re sitting just outside the 8 by the half way point of 2008, we will play the experienced guys over the youngsters in order to have another unsuccessful crack at a flag.
Are we more interested in holding ground or in moving forward?

1. Football clubs are about winning ....winning as many games every season and gradually replacing players with better ones once those players have earned their place.

Winning teams are great cultures to develop young players ......but not every player is going to make the grade ......your saying play them irrespective.
Pfieffer and Tippett did not desrve games this year - END OF STORY!

Club cultures are based on all players in the club believing they can be picked on form ......all team members going into battle with team mates knowing they have derserved their spot.
You don't understand this principle Drummond .....all these clubs rebuilding on youth ...just how successful have they been? ....at least everone at Hawthorn already new that Franklin, Roughhead and Lewis were better than the incumbant group.

2. Yes we'll play experienced players going into finals BUT we'll also play the Van Berlo's and Knights NOT because we're developing them but because they have earn't their place in the team.

[Wayne's-World]

Why people will say '' dont clean the list'' in a ''weak draft'' is because its better the devil you know than the one you dont. Is it worth getting rid of a 28 yr old Doughty if you are going to pick up a 19 yr old Doughty?

Im interested in winning a flag

Also each draft pick is a gamble ......you really don't know if your draft picks are going to bloom.

Take Tambling as an example ......and then take Westoff ...you can't tell me Port knew with any confidence that Westoff would have a cracker of a season.

Now on a gamble you want to tie up +20% on two year contracts and then take another 4 players next draft ...thus commiting to a third of your list over two years that are HUGE risks ........tread carefully and think about it.

Seems to me to be very fashionable when you have a poor season to say .....lets clean everyone out :confused:

[jo172]

Can someone tell me a Premiership team that has had a 3 year doom and gloom rebuilding period? Or are they just a myth perpetuated by the naysayers?

Rebuilding Periods and cycles are just excuses made by crappy Victorian teams for poor administration.

We are the Adelaide Football Club and should expect to win every game we run out onto the field. That is how you build pride and respect within a footballl club which is how you bring about sustained dominance. Port Adelaide are a great example of this!

[Drummond]

1. Football clubs are about winning ....winning as many games every season and gradually replacing players with better ones once those players have earned their place.

Winning teams are great cultures to develop young players ......but not every player is going to make the grade ......your saying play them irrespective.
Pfieffer and Tippett did not desrve games this year - END OF STORY!
Pfeiffer didn’t deserve a game this year? What about after his month of football where he averaged 23 possessions and 7.25 marks per game and was named best, 3rd best, best and 2nd best by the NFC. Not worthy?

Club cultures are based on all players in the club believing they can be picked on form ......all team members going into battle with team mates knowing they have derserved their spot.
And yet this theory went out the window when we played Luke Jericho in Round 7 this year. :thumbsu:

[earlsta]

Pfeiffer should replace Torney soon, but gee whiz Torney is playing some pretty good footy, he seems like he has even improved the last couple of years if that makes any sense.

Everyones talking about Pfeiffer as a defender etc, why doesn't anyone talk about him going into the midfield, is there anything holding him back?

[Crow-mo]

well composed and argued OP Drummond. don't agree with it all, but it is persuasively put.

[Crow-mo]

I've read so much dribble on this forum since last week on the massie match-up ......I've watched the replay about 3 times and Massies performance in the main was great on Franklin.


as always WW, your telly shows something different to ours. did we win on yours? :thumbsu:

[Crow-mo]

Rebuilding Periods and cycles are just excuses made by crappy Victorian teams for poor administration.


yeah, but you're just saying that because you've looked at the evidence.

where would we be if more people did that? keep your fact based analysis to yourself! :p

[Crow Envy]

Rubbish.

We have Rutten and Bock as possibly the best FB/CHB combination going around for the next five years. We have some quality midfielders who will be around for the next 7-8 years. We need to sort out our forwardline, no doubt - but we WILL find top-line talent out of Sellar, Tippett, Hentschel and Taylor.

We will make the 8 next year and push hard for the top 4.

Bock would be up there if he was allowed to play that position against key forwards, Riewoldt and Franklin spring to mind.

[macca23]

I've read so much dribble on this forum since last week on the massie match-up ......I've watched the replay about 3 times and Massies performance in the main was great on Franklin.



You've posted some reasonable comments in this thread WW. :)

This isn't one of them! :thumbsd:

[jo172]

yeah, but you're just saying that because you've looked at the evidence.

where would we be if more people did that? keep your fact based analysis to yourself! :p

Someone posting on the board has to keep their head screwed on.

Remember last time we were in a situation similar to this, late 2004. If the people on this board had their way then the following players would not still be at the AFC: Massie, Basset, Bode, Doughty, SHirley, Welsh, Perrie, Jericho, Reilly, Biglands, Hentshel, Mattner and Bock depite the capable service they have given.

We had a pretty ****ed up year this year and it was only a fluke that eliminated us from the finals.

People carrying on like it's the end of the world, think, if not for 20 seconds somewhere we'd still be in it, and talking up our chances considering we'd be playing the depleted Roos. We're still in great shape.

Look at the development of blokes like Griffin, Knights, Porplyzia and VB this year. How anyone cannot think we haven't gone forwards (although not at the same velocity as Collingwood/Hawthorn/Port) is beyond me.

[pjcrows]

Pfeiffer didn’t deserve a game this year? What about after his month of football where he averaged 23 possessions and 7.25 marks per game and was named best, 3rd best, best and 2nd best by the NFC. Not worthy?

Drummond 2007 Stats

Total posts: 587
Total positive posts: 3
Total negative posts: 584
Total Meesen/Pfeiffer/Campbell posts: 496
Total posts that bag Craig directly: 220
Total posts that bag Craig indirectly: 198
% of posts that are based on irrelevant statistics: 100
% of posts that talk up Norwood hacks: 99
% of posts that talk up other teams' guns: 1
% of posts that pretend to understand the inner workings of the AFC: 100

Total AFC games attended: 1

[- PC -]

Gunnage PJ :thumbsu:

[crowsarethebest]

It is gonig to be a real big dilema for the club. Our list management over the years haven't been flash. Good list management is when people gradually get phased out. You can't just get rid of a whole bunch of 2nd tier players. You need to gradually get them out over a period of time. The real problem with our list is that we have a bunch of players that are in the 30+ group, high 20's and then low 20's then the youngsters. We don't have many from the 24-28 mark. When Macca, Goody and Edwards retire it's going to be a struggle to find replacements... Those 3 guys contribute probably 70+ possies each week on average (taking a guess). They are all quality possessions as well. We need to wrok hard on getting some kids through so it will become as smooth as transition as posible.

[- PC -]

It is gonig to be a real big dilema for the club. Our list management over the years haven't been flash. Good list management is when people gradually get phased out. You can't just get rid of a whole bunch of 2nd tier players. You need to gradually get them out over a period of time. The real problem with our list is that we have a bunch of players that are in the 30+ group, high 20's and then low 20's then the youngsters. We don't have many from the 24-28 mark. When Macca, Goody and Edwards retire it's going to be a struggle to find replacements... Those 3 guys contribute probably 70+ possies each week on average (taking a guess). They are all quality possessions as well. We need to wrok hard on getting some kids through so it will become as smooth as transition as posible.

See I dont get this

Who are Knights Thompson and VB ?

[pjcrows]

See I dont get this

Who are Knights Thompson and VB ?

I agree. When Goodwin, Edwards and McLeod leave we will lose some obvious talent and experience, but, presuming they retire at the end of 2009, I expect Thompson, Knights, Reilly and Van Berlo to take their places with reasonable success. Our problem is not directly the retirements of Goodwin, Edwards, McLeod - our problem is, who fills the depth that Thompson, Knights, Reilly and Van Berlo give us now when they step up to the next level?

[crowsarethebest]

See I dont get this

Who are Knights Thompson and VB ?
So effectively Knights, Thommo and VB become our Macca, Goody and Edwards. Then who takes the the spots of Knight's, Thommo and VB? Argh I suck at explaining things but 3 people have to step up when Macca, Goody and Edwards retire. They go into Knights, Thommo and VB's spot (Knights, Thompson and VB step into Macca, Goody and Edwards spots). I hope you guys understand..


At the moment I don't see anyone capable of slotting into those roles. Thommo, Knights, VB and X, Y, Z won't give us as much output as Macca, Goody, Edwards, Thommo, Knights and VB.

[crowsarethebest]

Haha yeah.. that was the point I was trying to make- pjcrows has got it.

[- PC -]

I agree. When Goodwin, Edwards and McLeod leave we will lose some obvious talent and experience, but, presuming they retire at the end of 2009, I expect Thompson, Knights, Reilly and Van Berlo to take their places with reasonable success. Our problem is not directly the retirements of Goodwin, Edwards, McLeod - our problem is, who fills the depth that Thompson, Knights, Reilly and Van Berlo give us now when they step up to the next level?

Agree with this... and this is whysome want Hurn, some want Ebert/Vespremi and others want Didak

[Crow-mo]

Drummond 2007 Stats

Total posts: 587
Total positive posts: 3
Total negative posts: 584
Total Meesen/Pfeiffer/Campbell posts: 496
Total posts that bag Craig directly: 220
Total posts that bag Craig indirectly: 198
% of posts that are based on irrelevant statistics: 100
% of posts that talk up Norwood hacks: 99
% of posts that talk up other teams' guns: 1
% of posts that pretend to understand the inner workings of the AFC: 100

Total AFC games attended: 1

rather than have a go at drummond, can you point us to any thought provoking analysis of yours? a piece you're particularly proud of?

[Ferris_rules]

lol Premiership Window closed with Buddys straight kick from 50.

The have replaced the window with a wall, a stone wall covered in concrete, reinforced with steel.

I always believe they blew their chances in 05 with that shocking loss to the Saints. It was that poor poor performance that will always hurt me as a supporter.

In 06 I forgave the Crows, they had everything against them with injuries parvo virus etc..

In 07, arrogance ruled supreme, to believe that Massie was the best bet on Buddy...........personally I think Craig would play Shirley and think its a masterstroke, after Buddy kicked 20.

When Craig gets sacked and like all coaches he will be, he should let it burn inside him forever that his arrogance and pride over Massie on Buddy cost him his job.

[pjcrows]

rather than have a go at drummond, can you point us to any thought provoking analysis of yours? a piece you're particularly proud of?

Well, to be honest, the post that you quoted would probably be my proudest moment on BigFooty.

[Captain Poopybum]

Drummond 2007 Stats

Total posts: 587
Total positive posts: 3
Total negative posts: 584
Total Meesen/Pfeiffer/Campbell posts: 496
Total posts that bag Craig directly: 220
Total posts that bag Craig indirectly: 198
% of posts that are based on irrelevant statistics: 100
% of posts that talk up Norwood hacks: 99
% of posts that talk up other teams' guns: 1
% of posts that pretend to understand the inner workings of the AFC: 100

Total AFC games attended: 1

And the point of your post is ?

[pjcrows]

And the point of your post is ?

"Oh come on, everyone... chill ouuut..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/theoffice/images/400/david07.jpg

[Captain Poopybum]

"Oh come on, everyone... chill ouuut..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/theoffice/images/400/david07.jpg

Try posting something relevant to the thread.

[PCORF]

The current squad, as it stands today, won’t win us a flag.

Correct. They can do it if they can believe. But they have suffered mentally for way too long. Only expect more Preliminary Final frustration, more 1 point defeats and no 1 point wins.

A 6 and 16 record in Games by 10 points or less in 2003,2004,2006 and 2007 has cost this club Grand Finals, and Top 4's. In 2005 they were 8-3 (in cloce games) during an almost dream season for us but that trip to Subi that wrecked the confidence of this team.

If the Crows are to win a flag they need to do what a Collingwood, West Coast (from 2006) or Port Power must do, win Close Games. It wont happen with this group of players.

[Kane McGoodwin]

I've read so much dribble on this forum since last week on the massie match-up ......I've watched the replay about 3 times and Massies performance in the main was great on Franklin.
You have been listening to too much of Craigy's brainwashing.

Franklin was the Hawks matchwinner with Hodge.

Massie was beaten by Franklin. His performance was no where near great on this mismatch. If it was, we would be playing the Roos now!

[Southerntakeover]

Drummond 2007 Stats

Total posts: 587
Total positive posts: 3
Total negative posts: 584
Total Meesen/Pfeiffer/Campbell posts: 496
Total posts that bag Craig directly: 220
Total posts that bag Craig indirectly: 198
% of posts that are based on irrelevant statistics: 100
% of posts that talk up Norwood hacks: 99
% of posts that talk up other teams' guns: 1
% of posts that pretend to understand the inner workings of the AFC: 100

Total AFC games attended: 1

Haha, nice.

Not quite accurate though, 496 posts about Meese, Pfeiff and Campbell and only 3 positive?

[Asgardian]

Franklin was the Hawks matchwinner with Hodge.

Shane Crawford also had a fine game against the Crows

[Crow-mo]

Well, to be honest, the post that you quoted would probably be my proudest moment on BigFooty.

gosh. not sure you're in position to throw brickbats at FD88, let alone drummond ;)