View Full Version : Tim Boyle - Second Round draft pick asked for only?
philhawk
9 Oct 2007, 01:29
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/kangaroos-in-the-hunt-for-brisbane-midfielder/2007/10/08/1191695823242.html
Hawthorn has put a second-round price on the head of forward Tim Boyle but insisted that Jarryd Roughead, whom many clubs inquired after, is off-limits.
... what a joke?
Tim > any second round draft pick.
Wouldn't want to see him traded, but if he was, it's first round or nothing.
FFS, Essendon are asking for a first-rounder for Keplar Bradley!
mulhollanddrive
9 Oct 2007, 01:31
Geez, that is a surprise.
Do we know of any major long term injury concerns that may have us wanting him out?
Splodge15
9 Oct 2007, 01:41
I wouldn't be happy wih a 2nd rounder for Tim.
i really hope thats not what we're asking!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad:
wow, Pelchen last year tried to come off hard assed with hard bargains, now he has gone limp.....
If we trade Boyle off for a round 2 ill be so dissapointed!! If we were to trade him its a first round or nothing.
Leather Poisoning
9 Oct 2007, 08:00
I get the feeling (no source, just intuition) that Boyle was on a performance-based contract this year since he's had such a dodgy run with injuries. e.g. If you play less than x games you'll be offered up as trade.
Could explain why his confidence was so down after his comeback from the hamstring.
It just seems to me that every decision we're making as a club is made well in advance, nothing is ad hoc and it's all part of a biggerplan (whether we agree with it or not).
But a second-round draft pick is a rip-off. If we did trade him he should be seen in the same regard as J Rawlings was before the trade.
Mitchell Madness
9 Oct 2007, 08:24
possibly, the two 2nd round picks we would have if that happened would be traded off to somebody (maybe kanga's?) for a defender (Watt?)
also, it could be a possibility that there is more to the story. That the hawk may have said "Take Boyles contract off our hands and we will only want a 2nd rounder, dont want the contract? well then we will want more"
Robber Baron
9 Oct 2007, 08:42
wow, Pelchen last year tried to come off hard assed with hard bargains, now he has gone limp.....
If we trade Boyle off for a round 2 ill be so dissapointed!! If we were to trade him its a first round or nothing.
I wounldnt be worried it s Pelchin thas working for us and hes defenetely got a plan. I recon hes doing the oposite of what there all thinking so he can confuse them or may be hes selling Bolye like when the agent sells the house and starts the biding low and then it goes up so I recon hes probably doing an auction for Boyle and hell get us a late 1st round pick for him. ALl them other clubs that are desperite for a gun forward are gunna be biding big and there all gunna have t o bid a 1st round to get him. Pelchins a gun and hes already out smarted them all.
tommyk72
9 Oct 2007, 09:08
I wounldnt be worried it s Pelchin thas working for us and hes defenetely got a plan. I recon hes doing the oposite of what there all thinking so he can confuse them or may be hes selling Bolye like when the agent sells the house and starts the biding low and then it goes up so I recon hes probably doing an auction for Boyle and hell get us a late 1st round pick for him. ALl them other clubs that are desperite for a gun forward are gunna be biding big and there all gunna have t o bid a 1st round to get him. Pelchins a gun and hes already out smarted them all.
Believe it or not that could actually make sense! If you get a couple of people interested in having a dip - get them a little hooked - and then get them to try and bid against each other for him we might end up with something a bit more decent!
Good call RB!
bigbol069
9 Oct 2007, 09:10
Ok. Lets clear this up.
Pelch has said he is surprised that so many clubs are interested in Boyle, that Tim is a required, contracted player that will not be offered by us, but Hawthorn will listen to offers that are put forward by other teams that may be to our advantage should a trade be done. There is no suggestion of a 2nd round draft pick from Pelch, it would be a straight swap for a key defensive player if something was to happen. How can people even think we are that stupid to accept a second round pick in a poor draft? Pelch hasn't let us down yet and he won't start now.
And Roughead is off limits, end of story.
JezzHawk
9 Oct 2007, 09:52
2nd round is not that bad and is a reasonable deal. I would only take it if the pick was < 20.
If a first round was offered IMO it will be a swap of our 1st round. This will hopefully get us less than a top 10 pick.
MinerBoy
9 Oct 2007, 10:00
I really like Tim and don't necessarily want him traded, but you people that think he is worth a first rounder are simply delusional.
2nd rounder sounds about right for someone who has been in the system 4-5 years and has had one reasonable half season.
WOTTAMACHINE
9 Oct 2007, 10:01
Geez, that is a surprise.
Do we know of any major long term injury concerns that may have us wanting him out?
Interesting point..
TylerDurden
9 Oct 2007, 10:14
Until it's directly quoted from Pelch, i wouldn't believe it. We'd be wanting more than that in a weak draft...
randybone16
9 Oct 2007, 10:21
I'm not sure I see the value in trading Boyle unless it is for a first round pick or another player. A second rounder is unlikely to be a ready made player and may take a few years to develop and not turn out to be as valuable as Boyle has been this year.
lickmerocks
9 Oct 2007, 10:23
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/kangaroos-in-the-hunt-for-brisbane-midfielder/2007/10/08/1191695823242.html
... what a joke?
Tim > any second round draft pick.
Wouldn't want to see him traded, but if he was, it's first round or nothing.
FFS, Essendon are asking for a first-rounder for Keplar Bradley!
Phil you are dreaming if you think we can get a first rounder for Tim Boyle.
5 years on our list and a career season of 31 goals and you are seeking a first rounder....Cmon....give me a break.
Why do Hawthorn supporters over rate our players?
He is a one trick pony, who doesnt apply enough forward pressure when the ball hits the turf and players this season ran off him. See both Finals games.
Lets not become an Essendon and ask for stupid things like a first round pick for Jason Johnson. LOL.
Hopefully we can package Boyle and our second pick for a half decent player to help fill our problem areas. 1.Key Defender, 2. small pacy goal kicking genious who will sit at the feet of Buddy Roughy Thorp Willow Dowler etc...
what about Boyle for Nathan Carroll?? Bailey has put him on the market and the dees need a key forward to replace Neitz at careers end..
he will look good in a dogs jumper next year. 40-60 goals too.
that would be a crap deal for a 2nd rounder, rather keep him
lickmerocks
9 Oct 2007, 10:49
what about Boyle and a third round pick for Farren ray.
Ray is developing and would fit our mould nicely as an outside runner with pace and finish.
Would the Dogs consider this?
dipper86
9 Oct 2007, 11:01
Our Tim can play footy, nice hands straight kick, pity he has a heart the size of a pea.
If we can get a late first round pick to early (great) or mid second round pick(still a good deal) then i'd be all for it.
soupofficial
9 Oct 2007, 11:03
it's usually the case on bigfooty, but it was like i was banging my head on a brick wall yesterday when trying to explain that clubs simply aren't going to part with a first round draft pick to get a player of tim boyle's limited credentials and numerous queries.
there's no reverse psychology or "get em hooked" price happening here - i'd be flabbergasted if a club threw away its first round pick for an inexperienced mature-aged 3rd forward with injury troubles.
someone on here even said that he should be worth the same as jade rawlings was when he was traded. excuse you - rawlings was one of the most effective CHB's in the league in the season or two prior to his contract dispute, could be thrown forward to be at least as damaging as boyle, and had established himself over 100+ games. a question mark over the knee, but hawthorn was still happy to offer him a 2 year contract. it's complete madness to pretend that boyle's credentials match up.
clubs are very wary these days of using first round picks on any player that can be seen as a gamble, because they know that there will be supporter backlash if it doesn't work out. fortunately hawthorn has dished out a couple of the main culprits that caused this sensitivity, but hay and rawlings were both KPP's (not 3rd tall - a far easier position to fill), both 100 game players, hay AA, rawlings international rules rep.
i don't believe boyle's upside is great enough to cancel out the downsides and make it up to the level of the other two - particularly with the other two now acting as cautionary tales for clubs wanting to recruit emotionally or physically fragile talls from HFC.
i was relieved when i saw today's article that said hawthorn was only seeking a 2nd round pick for boyle, thinking some of the madness would stop on this website. unfortunately people are just dunking their heads even deeper into the sand and screaming "first round or nothing". essendon are never going to get a first round for kepler bradley - that's just stupid. doesn't mean our demands should be equally stupid... since when did we want hawthorn to operate with essendon's foolishness?
Pessimistic
9 Oct 2007, 11:05
second round draft pick - that'll really help our depth problem !!
Troubel is Boyld plays liek much more experienced than a 25 gamer - for obvious reasons. His trade value is less than his actual value as a player to us
ray is very happy a the dogs and the dogs are happy with him. Maybe you could look at mcmahon, he is a bit of a sheepdog who doesnt like getting his hands dirty, but has good run which could help you guys, he just needs to put his body on the line.
second round draft pick - that'll really help our depth problem !!
Troubel is Boyld plays liek much more experienced than a 25 gamer - for obvious reasons. His trade value is less than his actual value as a player to us
Spot on, and I believe Pelchen said in his Canberra forum that players would not be traded until they have reached their full trade potential, IMO there is no way Boyle would be traded for a second rd pick, he might be traded as part of a deal that gets us a better pick or a quality player but not straight out for a 2nd rd pick.
Boyle + pick? for - 1st rd pick or quality young KP back
No specifics, but Pelchen would consider trading Boyle if it made us better, a 2nd round pick does not make us better.
ray is very happy a the dogs and the dogs are happy with him. Maybe you could look at mcmahon, he is a bit of a sheepdog who doesnt like getting his hands dirty, but has good run which could help you guys, he just needs to put his body on the line.
Not a fan of Ray and McMahon is a fringe player at the Dogs who would also struggle to get a game at Hawthorn.
soupofficial
9 Oct 2007, 11:55
the above logic is quite sound, but i do believe that boyle is currently at the upper end of his tradeability curve.
i could see boyle + our pick #29 getting us something in the 10-15 range.
west coast have pick 13 and will be getting a showbag of picks/players from carlton, so they are fairly likely to put pick 13 on the table if a good proposition comes along.
if we were able to get pick 13 from that deal, i'd be totally stoked. it'd give us the currency to trade for a decent established backman if we desired.
Collins-Langford-Ayres
9 Oct 2007, 12:27
Pelch is just drumming up interest. Gee, the Dees have offered their second round pick so Bullies, you're going to have to improve on that.
Smart play Pelch.
Gilbert_Hodge
9 Oct 2007, 13:02
Boyle has a lot more value then a round 2 pick.
The Cryptkeeper
9 Oct 2007, 13:14
And Roughead is off limits, end of story.
I suspect Roughy's name only keeps coming up because idiots on websites like this one keeping throwing it up. The rumour has been bullshit from day one and anybody that offers anything to the contrary is a liar.
it's usually the case on bigfooty, but it was like i was banging my head on a brick wall yesterday when trying to explain that clubs simply aren't going to part with a first round draft pick to get a player of tim boyle's limited credentials and numerous queries.
there's no reverse psychology or "get em hooked" price happening here - i'd be flabbergasted if a club threw away its first round pick for an inexperienced mature-aged 3rd forward with injury troubles.
someone on here even said that he should be worth the same as jade rawlings was when he was traded. excuse you - rawlings was one of the most effective CHB's in the league in the season or two prior to his contract dispute, could be thrown forward to be at least as damaging as boyle, and had established himself over 100+ games. a question mark over the knee, but hawthorn was still happy to offer him a 2 year contract. it's complete madness to pretend that boyle's credentials match up.
clubs are very wary these days of using first round picks on any player that can be seen as a gamble, because they know that there will be supporter backlash if it doesn't work out. fortunately hawthorn has dished out a couple of the main culprits that caused this sensitivity, but hay and rawlings were both KPP's (not 3rd tall - a far easier position to fill), both 100 game players, hay AA, rawlings international rules rep.
i don't believe boyle's upside is great enough to cancel out the downsides and make it up to the level of the other two - particularly with the other two now acting as cautionary tales for clubs wanting to recruit emotionally or physically fragile talls from HFC.
i was relieved when i saw today's article that said hawthorn was only seeking a 2nd round pick for boyle, thinking some of the madness would stop on this website. unfortunately people are just dunking their heads even deeper into the sand and screaming "first round or nothing". essendon are never going to get a first round for kepler bradley - that's just stupid. doesn't mean our demands should be equally stupid... since when did we want hawthorn to operate with essendon's foolishness?
I agree to some extent. Surely you recognise that a 1st rounder doesn't mean that it'll necessarily be in the top 10, and that a 2nd rounder could be in the 30's. So while I agree that Boyle isn't fantastic, he is a key position player that kicked over 30 goals in around 18 games. The reason he should attract interest is that kp forwards are difficult to find.
Lastly I was glad to see the back of Rawlings, who was full of himself, and was only a good backman, not a forward which is where WB had him and he failed.
The thing I don't get about saying Boyle is worth a 2nd rounder, is that I don't think we're overly interested in the draft as previous years. That is to say, if we get another draft pick, is it logical to suggest that we'll use 5 picks in the draft? I don't think so. We drafted and rebuilt the playing list and now we're in the position to fill the gaps with aged players.
Hence, I think Higgins would be a handy acquisition for Boyle. Not interested in Murphy or any other midget receiving WB players; we can get those through the draft or from the rookie list. Perhaps we may need to sweeten the deal with a 3rd rounder, or a swap of picks.
soupofficial
9 Oct 2007, 14:50
I agree to some extent. Surely you recognise that a 1st rounder doesn't mean that it'll necessarily be in the top 10, and that a 2nd rounder could be in the 30's. So while I agree that Boyle isn't fantastic, he is a key position player that kicked over 30 goals in around 18 games. The reason he should attract interest is that kp forwards are difficult to find.
Lastly I was glad to see the back of Rawlings, who was full of himself, and was only a good backman, not a forward which is where WB had him and he failed.
The thing I don't get about saying Boyle is worth a 2nd rounder, is that I don't think we're overly interested in the draft as previous years. That is to say, if we get another draft pick, is it logical to suggest that we'll use 5 picks in the draft? I don't think so. We drafted and rebuilt the playing list and now we're in the position to fill the gaps with aged players.
Hence, I think Higgins would be a handy acquisition for Boyle. Not interested in Murphy or any other midget receiving WB players; we can get those through the draft or from the rookie list. Perhaps we may need to sweeten the deal with a 3rd rounder, or a swap of picks.
hawthorn is certainly flush with recent draftees and youth, but the road we've gone down to reach that point is a dramatic one. our situation is not common to many other clubs.
if a club is willing to give us a draft choice for boyle (my original estimate of his worth was pick 20), it'll be very easy to on-trade that pick to somewhere else if we want a player rather than a pick. boyle may only be genuinely desired by a couple of clubs, whereas having a draft pick in place of him would allow us to wheel and deal with almost anyone.
BK Eaglesfan
9 Oct 2007, 15:56
I agree to some extent. Surely you recognise that a 1st rounder doesn't mean that it'll necessarily be in the top 10, and that a 2nd rounder could be in the 30's. So while I agree that Boyle isn't fantastic, he is a key position player that kicked over 30 goals in around 18 games. The reason he should attract interest is that kp forwards are difficult to find.
Which placed him around 37th in the league for goals kicked for the year.
I like Boyle, he played a good role behind Buddy and Roughead. But just because he's tall, let's not confuse him for a spearhead KPP that is worth a 1st round pick. How would Boyle go, if defenders weren't double and triple teaming Buddy and leaving Boyle free, or at least on the 3rd tall, and he had to kick 3 or 4 every week to be doing his job?
I would be dirty if the Eagles gave Pick 13 for him. In reality our second round pick is probably a little too low, to me Pick 22 - 27 seems about right. Therein lies the problem, looking at the 1st round / 2nd round so black and white. If you got Richmond's second round, I reckon you've picked up a great deal. Ours, not so much.
Just of of interest, those suggesting Boyle is a first rounder, what pick range would you give for Mark LeCras if it was a player for pick trade?
Which placed him around 37th in the league for goals kicked for the year.
I like Boyle, he played a good role behind Buddy and Roughead. But just because he's tall, let's not confuse him for a spearhead KPP that is worth a 1st round pick. How would Boyle go, if defenders weren't double and triple teaming Buddy and leaving Boyle free, or at least on the 3rd tall, and he had to kick 3 or 4 every week to be doing his job?
I would be dirty if the Eagles gave Pick 13 for him. In reality our second round pick is probably a little too low, to me Pick 22 - 27 seems about right. Therein lies the problem, looking at the 1st round / 2nd round so black and white. If you got Richmond's second round, I reckon you've picked up a great deal. Ours, not so much.
Just of of interest, those suggesting Boyle is a first rounder, what pick range would you give for Mark LeCras if it was a player for pick trade?
Id give pick 12 for LeCras for sure
The thing with Boyle is he may be worth only a second rounder but do we really need another 2nd round pick in this draft.
Theres a good thread on the Crows board about the recent history of 2nd round picks and it shows that about 10 of the 16 taken in the last few years have been delisted or are heading that way , 2 or 3 are fringe players and 2 or 3 are good players . So its very hit and miss even with second round picks.
If we did trade Boyle for a pick ,it would only be to on trade it i would think.
Pessimistic
9 Oct 2007, 16:38
2007 improvement due partly to huge input provided by Boyle and Campbell.
Id be seriously worried it those two left replaced by draftees even if we hadsuper picks in the draft.
These guys are just entering the peak years and if we continue to go this way we'll.....
ALLWAYS be 3 years of a potential premiership.
Splodge15
9 Oct 2007, 20:03
Our Tim can play footy, nice hands straight kick, pity he has a heart the size of a pea.
I disagree.
I would say Timmy Boyle has a massive heart. Might not be the toughest player like a Jon Brown, but he plays his guts out. Any issues with him are mental toughness which he seems to have overcome.
dipper86
9 Oct 2007, 20:21
I disagree.
I would say Timmy Boyle has a massive heart. Might not be the toughest player like a Jon Brown, but he plays his guts out. Any issues with him are mental toughness which he seems to have overcome.
Did you happen to watch him in the final against the Kangaroos, he squibbed out of a contest, in a final thats unforgivable in my opinion, if we find the right trade then go for it, if we have a lobsided trade then don't.
Brown Blood
9 Oct 2007, 20:30
I am yet to see a quote from pelchin saying all we want is a 2nd round pick and when you think about it:
What advantage would there be in him saying it?
Seems like just more BS from another newspaper.
I am yet to see a quote from pelchin saying all we want is a 2nd round pick and when you think about it:
What advantage would there be in him saying it?
Seems like just more BS from another newspaper.
Agreed, why would you undershoot a deal for a player on the trade block? Its better to overshoot and then drop standards.
Id give pick 12 for LeCras for sure
The thing with Boyle is he may be worth only a second rounder but do we really need another 2nd round pick in this draft.
Theres a good thread on the Crows board about the recent history of 2nd round picks and it shows that about 10 of the 16 taken in the last few years have been delisted or are heading that way , 2 or 3 are fringe players and 2 or 3 are good players . So its very hit and miss even with second round picks.
If we did trade Boyle for a pick ,it would only be to on trade it i would think.
If I understand what I've read correctly, I wouldn't say that it wasn't a good thread. Perhaps you could provide a link so that I could digest it better. From what you've said, clubs should avoid 2nd round picks completely, trading them, so that they can concentrate on using their 3rd round pick! The fact is, and everyone understands this, is that it is harder to pick up a quality AFL the further you get in. So that statistic is absolutely meaningless, especially when its such a small number of observations. Come back with some large numbers, and then I'll start believing.
Man that's some wacky notion!