Too few trades ever happen...what about some incentives for clubs to trade?

[Kinghts 24]

Seems every year fewer and fewer player and /or draft picks are traded. In the NBA you see MONSTER trades involving up 6 players at a time. Club favourites are traded at the peak of their value...bit like the stock market...buy low, sell high.
eg if a player you draft at, say, pick 45 can in a couple of years be traded for a first round pick or better, should you do it?

Nathan Thompson went from being pick 78(?) to being worth two first round picks. Seems clubs are afraid of trading more in the risk that they will come off second best (never stopped Freo :D).

So could the AFL put in place incentives to reduce that risk and encourage clubs to take more risks and trade? e.g the club that trades the most, gets first pick in the PSD? Club that trades the least, last pick in PSD? Trade week has become a joke...clubs too concerned about being dudded...let's give them an incentive!

[amos]

While it does seem that fewer and fewer trades are being done each year, I, personally, can deal with it. We are on the verge of something so am hoping to **** that we don't trade away any of our depth for pick that will need 3 years to produce regular game time. I'd much prefer to sick back and watch duds trade clubs. Getting a gun through picks is more of a chance than through trades.

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I hate the trading period. Shit, you actually develop a plan and players over a period of time and then go and play poker with all the work that you have done and hope for the best with a player or two? Defies logic.

[Roughie]

I hate the trading period. Shit, you actually develop a plan and players over a period of time and then go and play poker with all the work that you have done and hope for the best with a player or two? Defies logic.

So you dont even believe in trading for a required need to thrust your team in to a premiership window rather then trying to develop as your already proven stars age?

[Kinghts 24]

That's the point I agree 100%....how much risk are clubs prepared to take to rapidly accelerate their development toward a premiership?

Is the risk in trading worth the reward? Or are clubs to risk averse?

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

So you dont even believe in trading for a required need to thrust your team in to a premiership window rather then trying to develop as your already proven stars age?

I believe if you had planned well you shouldn't need to go skimming players from other clubs to fit your 'premiership window'. Honestly, when has topping up ever taken a side to a premiership? It certainly did diddly squat for Freo this year and the Saints probably missed two premierships because of it.

It may be old fashioned perhaps, but I believe this group is pretty tight and for every good player that comes to the club, it strikes at the heart of the playing group to see another bloke who has built to where we are now, cast aside. Maybe I can accept, say a Boyle trade for a quality backman. I can't accept trading Boyle for a pick that is potentially 3 years away from what Boyle is now. We aren't that advanced nor do we have the depth. Mind you - I do know that I don't know as much as AC or Pelchin - so I am happy to admit that. It's just my opinion.

[Roughie]

I believe if you had planned well you shouldn't need to go skimming players from other clubs to fit your 'premiership window'. Honestly, when has topping up ever taken a side to a premiership? It certainly did diddly squat for Freo this year and the Saints probably missed two premierships because of it.



I think Brisbane topped up with Carracella, and Pike

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I think Brisbane topped up with Carracella, and Pike

Great point made with Pike, although if memory serves me correctly, he was a bargain because everyone was too scared to take him on because of his wildman ways. Was he delisted by North? Nothing a good dose of Lethal couldn't fix.

Carracella was less of a success I would say.

However, if you look at that Brisbane side, they had an advantage by being a one team side in a hostile environment, much like the Storm. I'd love to see the Hawks having the same solidarity because that shows mates that want to play together and for each other.

[amos]

So you dont even believe in trading for a required need to thrust your team in to a premiership window rather then trying to develop as your already proven stars age?Most of the posts of yours I've seen, Roughie, are flogging off Boyle for picks. I'd hardly think more picks are what we need.

[soupofficial]

answer: the players association is growing increasingly restless for free agency due to the diminishing amount of trades that actually get executed each year.
the answer is indeed free agency, and it's a central reason why the NBA allows players to move so easily.
when teams start getting worried that unhappy players will trot off to the team of their choice, they'll become a whole lot more proactive, and a whole less snooty about trade week.

[Roughie]

Most of the posts of yours I've seen, Roughie, are flogging off Boyle for picks. I'd hardly think more picks are what we need.

Why do you quote a post about me advocating for trading for players and not picks?

And if you read my posts ive never said we should trade Boyle for picks. I said if we get offered picks to trade him its round 1 or nothing. If you look at the people on the trade block there is no one we need to specifically chase, its to hard to aquire a talented full back. I think Boyle's trade value is at its pinacle right now, were able to aquire a round 1 pick for a third tall forward, who will most likely become our 4th option if Williams can return fully fit and firing. Plus with Thorp and Morton breathing down the neck of our forwards, Pelchen would surely inquire about any offers coming about Boyle.

[amos]

Why do you quote a post about me advocating for trading for players and not picks?Typo there, Roughy but anyway sorry champ if you didn't mention a trade but it just seems that every second post I read is you and PhilHawk entertaining picks for Boiler. Might be an age thing I suppose because I was sitting here after dinner with a couple of Hawk mates and we were saying 'NO ****ING WAY' and then my collegue's son was all for it until it got heated and he was almost grounded.

[Roughie]

Typo there, Roughy but anyway sorry champ if you didn't mention a trade but it just seems that every second post I read is you and PhilHawk entertaining picks for Boiler. Might be an age thing I suppose because I was sitting here after dinner with a couple of Hawk mates and we were saying 'NO ****ING WAY' and then my collegue's son was all for it.

I am only 18 and are really into the NFL and have a real 'new school' sort of mindset in aquiring players to create a great team. I am for trading Boyle for a first round pick, I am for listening to any trade offers. I seriously believe over the next 5-10 years trades will increase and esspecially if the AFL implement a free agency system. The AFL will evolve to become more of a buisness when it comes to managing players, with the mind set that every player can be traded.

Maybe it seems like every second post I am saying I am open to trading Boyle, but then again you must be only reading the Boyle threads ;)

[Big John]

I believe if you had planned well you shouldn't need to go skimming players from other clubs to fit your 'premiership window'. Honestly, when has topping up ever taken a side to a premiership? It certainly did diddly squat for Freo this year and the Saints probably missed two premierships because of it.

It may be old fashioned perhaps, but I believe this group is pretty tight and for every good player that comes to the club, it strikes at the heart of the playing group to see another bloke who has built to where we are now, cast aside. Maybe I can accept, say a Boyle trade for a quality backman. I can't accept trading Boyle for a pick that is potentially 3 years away from what Boyle is now. We aren't that advanced nor do we have the depth. Mind you - I do know that I don't know as much as AC or Pelchin - so I am happy to admit that. It's just my opinion.

Hard to find a recent premier that hasn't had some sort of traded players playing a decent role.This year the cats had Ottens, Swans love to trade, Eagles had Chick, Hardwick was very important for Port in 04, Lions already discussed, bombers picked up Barnes and then my memory fades. Trading is a great way to fill a whole in the list.

[amos]

I am only 18 and are really into the NFL and have a real 'new school' sort of mindset in aquiring players to create a great team.I gathered that, Roughie. I reckon I could age predict every poster on the Hawks board. I bet Gary and Thai could as well. Also, try not to forget, that most players on the market in AFL are there because they have a deficiency seen by their original club. In the NRL, $$ is more of a dictator.

I seriously believe over the next 5-10 years trades will increase and esspecially if the AFL implement a free agency system.Perhaps, but makes no sense for trading Boiler now, does it?

The AFL will evolve to become more of a buisness when it comes to managing players, with the mind set that every player can be traded.Don't hold your breathe. Carlton's recruiting in 1985 of Bradley, Kernahan, Motley, Dorotich and attempted recruiting of Platten are a major reason the draft, salary cap and tpp are in place today. While 'restriction of trade' threats surface yearly, I doubt the AFL could cope with an NFL like policy. If it did, Hawthorn would die off not much long after the Roos, Dogs and Saints.

[Roughie]

I gathered that, Roughie. I reckon I could age predict every poster on the Hawks board. I bet Gary and Thai could as well. Also, try not to forget, that most players on the market in AFL are there because they have a deficiency seen by their original club. In the NRL, $$ is more of a dictator.

Perhaps, but makes no sense for trading Boiler now, does it?

Don't hold your breathe. Carlton's recruiting in 1985 of Bradley, Kernahan, Motley, Dorotich and attempted recruiting of Platten are a major reason the draft, salary cap and tpp are in place today. While 'restriction of trade' threats surface yearly, I doubt the AFL could cope with an NFL like policy. If it did, Hawthorn would die off not much long after the Roos, Dogs and Saints.

The NFL Cope with a salary cap, drafting, and a free agency system. We pretty much mirror it with out the free agency. The Free Agency system suits players who like to name their price or accept and offer to a specific club they want to be at. The Free Agency system influences more trades and gives players more freedom in their destination. I think that you may fear that a club could become a power house by aquiring players in the Free Agency system but they all taking serious pay cuts to play in a championship team.

This is my reasoning for wanting to trade Boyle.

1) I believe Boyle's trade stocks will not rise any higher and will drop next season if he cant re-ignite his early 07 form.

2) With Pelchen believing Morton will debut next year, with the return of Williams, and Thorp seriously pushing for a spot next season, whose to say we will only see Boyle in 10 games next year? And with the potential for Boyle to break down with injury again a real possibility we could see Boyle batteling in 09 for a spot.

3) I believe strike while the iron is hot. We have an abundance of forwards, why not trade one now at his highest stocks as he is I believe the lowest rated forward from our 4 prong set up including Buddy, Rough and Willow.

4) I dont think we should trade Boyle for any old slouch. I would take a good rated round 1 pick, we then can position our self better to draft for needs rather then retaining our abundance of forwards and not striking while we can.

I hope you can better see where I am coming from, I am not trying to come across as lets trade Boyle, lets trade him for anything, I dont like the bloke. Boyler is one of my favourite players but I have a younger mind set, your from the old school where player transfers were a rareity and a bit more out of the norm where as I believe sports is like a buisness where your goal is to win a premiership and if that means you cant guarantee every player loyalty then thats fine.

[amos]

The NFL Cope with a salary cap, drafting, and a free agency system. We pretty much mirror it with out the free agency. The Free Agency system suits players who like to name their price or accept and offer to a specific club they want to be at. The Free Agency system influences more trades and gives players more freedom in their destination. I think that you may fear that a club could become a power house by aquiring players in the Free Agency system but they all taking serious pay cuts to play in a championship team.

This is my reasoning for wanting to trade Boyle.

1) I believe Boyle's trade stocks will not rise any higher and will drop next season if he cant re-ignite his early 07 form.

2) With Pelchen believing Morton will debut next year, with the return of Williams, and Thorp seriously pushing for a spot next season, whose to say we will only see Boyle in 10 games next year? And with the potential for Boyle to break down with injury again a real possibility we could see Boyle batteling in 09 for a spot.

3) I believe strike while the iron is hot. We have an abundance of forwards, why not trade one now at his highest stocks as he is I believe the lowest rated forward from our 4 prong set up including Buddy, Rough and Willow.

4) I dont think we should trade Boyle for any old slouch. I would take a good rated round 1 pick, we then can position our self better to draft for needs rather then retaining our abundance of forwards and not striking while we can.

I hope you can better see where I am coming from, I am not trying to come across as lets trade Boyle, lets trade him for anything, I dont like the bloke. Boyler is one of my favourite players but I have a younger mind set, your from the old school where player transfers were a rareity and a bit more out of the norm where as I believe sports is like a buisness where your goal is to win a premiership and if that means you cant guarantee every player loyalty then thats fine.You seem like an intelligent bloke Roughy, so I'll keep going :D. Can't be ****ed using the quote thingy so bear with me ...

Roughie said, "1) I believe Boyle's trade stocks will not rise any higher and will drop next season if he cant re-ignite his early 07 form". It's not a game, mate. Will Buddy rise any higher, so should we trade him? Ok, too high amos, however, 've yet to see a team win a premiership in recent history that didn't have enough depth to produce a 'I didn't get picked in the GF' sob story. Gun teams have depth. Let Boyler be pushed out by Thorp (IF HE CAN). However, Boyle has proven he IS TOP 22 material.

Roughie said, "2) With Pelchen believing Morton will debut next year, with the return of Williams, and Thorp seriously pushing for a spot next season, whose to say we will only see Boyle in 10 games next year? And with the potential for Boyle to break down with injury again a real possibility we could see Boyle batteling in 09 for a spot". Don't believe everthing Pelchen says champ. He also said Sewell wouldn't crack a regular gig at Hawthorn. Need I remind you who took the PC Trophy home. Thorp is raw. Williams plays tall but will be forced to play small regardless of whether Boyle is there or not with the emergance of Bddy and Roughy's unwillingness to go back, or at least, determination to stay forward.

Roughie said, "3) I believe strike while the iron is hot. We have an abundance of forwards, why not trade one now at his highest stocks as he is I believe the lowest rated forward from our 4 prong set up including Buddy, Rough and Willow". True, I agree he is the weakest but at the same time, the 4 talls is a major reason why we trouble most.

Roughie said, "4) I dont think we should trade Boyle for any old slouch. I would take a good rated round 1 pick, we then can position our self better to draft for needs rather then retaining our abundance of forwards and not striking while we can". Disagree. Not every player makes a first yr impact like Joel Selwood. Most take a couple of yrs to develop. We alreadt have the two Beaus, Willo, Thorp, Mossy and co in the waiting. Surely it's better to preserve our strengths (forwards) rather than gamble on picking up a gun.

Thanks for yr attention.

[ReluctantLion]

the answer is indeed free agency

Wouldn't that just benefit the W.A/S.A, Collingwoods etc.??

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

Great posting by Roughie & amos. I understand where both of you are coming from although I am in amos's corner as I believe one in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Tell me Roughie, when you say the NFL, you are talking Gridiron yes? I don't follow it.

You may need to enlighten me a bit. I hate what goes on in the NRL where players change sides mid season and know that they will play for another team halfway through the season. Only Michael Crocker has given me heart this year.

To give you an idea of how I feel about it - I have no problems that Leigh Matthews was our greatest ever player who then went onto coach Collingwood and Brisbane Lions. If Leigh played for Hawthorn, Collingwood & Brisbane Lions the sentiment and the passion for him would be different.

[Roughie]

Great posting by Roughie & amos. I understand where both of you are coming from although I am in amos's corner as I believe one in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Tell me Roughie, when you say the NFL, you are talking Gridiron yes? I don't follow it.

You may need to enlighten me a bit. I hate what goes on in the NRL where players change sides mid season and know that they will play for another team halfway through the season. Only Michael Crocker has given me heart this year.

To give you an idea of how I feel about it - I have no problems that Leigh Matthews was our greatest ever player who then went onto coach Collingwood and Brisbane Lions. If Leigh played for Hawthorn, Collingwood & Brisbane Lions the sentiment and the passion for him would be different.


Yeah mate I mean Gridiron. And with Gridiron they actually have a trade deadline of week 8 I believe, so round 8 in our terms. But that is more for if there is a huge injury in their team they can try trade for any replacement as an NFL team can be shattered by an injury to a key position like Quarter Back.

With the NFL though unlike NRL players dont just sign to teams mid year, I also hate that of the NRL. What I believe is, the AFL have their drafts, trade week, and then a 30 day Free Agency period, where teams bid on players and the player chooses his destination. Only in that 30 day period can he be picked up, and can not be talked to during the year (even though theres rules about that now, many teams still break it).

[Roughie]

It's not a game, mate. Will Buddy rise any higher, so should we trade him? Ok, too high amos, however, 've yet to see a team win a premiership in recent history that didn't have enough depth to produce a 'I didn't get picked in the GF' sob story. Gun teams have depth. Let Boyler be pushed out by Thorp (IF HE CAN). However, Boyle has proven he IS TOP 22 material.

No Buddy is an untouchable as Roughead is at the moment, and as should Williams if his knee is 100%. Yes depth is a great thing but do you have a belief of having to much depth in the one position? Esspecially seeing we play a box set up with 4 stay at home forwards leaving two flankers to play a midfield role. This leaving three blokes in Thorp, Dowler and Morton waiting in the wings. Boyler is certainly a top 22 player in our team, 100% is. But maybe I am just confident in the few games I have seen of Thorp that he will also be just as good if not better! I believe a key forward or a 2nd string forward is worth a first round pick and maybe a player, I think we could get a first round pick this leaving us with two, and a stronger push into trying to deal up or down, or to get a guy like Rance a key position defender for our most important need!



Don't believe everthing Pelchen says champ. He also said Sewell wouldn't crack a regular gig at Hawthorn. Need I remind you who took the PC Trophy home. Thorp is raw. Williams plays tall but will be forced to play small regardless of whether Boyle is there or not with the emergance of Bddy and Roughy's unwillingness to go back, or at least, determination to stay forward.

I dont think Williams will need to play small, or if there is an ability to be apart of the box set up and actually crumb. IF you consider the box set up ussually requires to quick leads from the top of the box, and then latter leads by the other two, as the first two swing back around to loop up for another option, I just dont think there is any chance for Willow to position him self to crumb. If willow starts in the box, its assest is to create one on one match ups, by opening up the field. I think the only way we can utilise a crumber is bombing it on a forward or pushing a crumber on that forward flank role and make him push hard and keep in front of the box.

I have also said if Roughead is going to play in defence, then we have to keep Boyle.....So my trading of Boyle also depends on Roughies positional future.

I know Boyle seems a sure thing at the moment with the comparison of the young kids but, his last games would have to put some concern into you? I am a Boyler fan and said it would take him at least 2 or 3 games to find his feet again but I think he went 5 or 6 straight with out doing anything so you have to be a bit worried?


True, I agree he is the weakest but at the same time, the 4 talls is a major reason why we trouble most..

I am not saying scrap the box set up though, this is why we have Thorp, Dowler and Morton. Morton is not really a towering player but plays tall, as does Willow anyway who is the hardest match up in the league after Buddy. So we would still have those kids rotating in and out of the team untill someone takes the reigns at that box position.

Disagree. Not every player makes a first yr impact like Joel Selwood. Most take a couple of yrs to develop. We alreadt have the two Beaus, Willo, Thorp, Mossy and co in the waiting. Surely it's better to preserve our strengths (forwards) rather than gamble on picking up a gun

Im not really saying hey lets draft for the hell of getting more kids, I think positioning our selves well in the first round will see us finally draft a defender! I dont know about you but I am not hugely confident in Gilly or Dawson but believe they need to get their time this season. I also dont know about Beau Dowler he really needs to start dominating Box Hill now. I love Mossy looking forward to him getting a run on the flank/wing, as with Musto.

I know not every kid makes an impact in their first year, I am actually one who reitterates that when people have a crack on Ellis. I just think with our forward line depth we can use Boyle to trade off, still have another 2 key position forwards waiting in the wing as one replaces him (or even Hodgey go up forward and swap with Lewis again). And then we can finally draft our first genuine defender in the national draft.

[soupofficial]

Wouldn't that just benefit the W.A/S.A, Collingwoods etc.??

depends what rules the league built in about how often it could be done, how long a player had to wait before being able to do it, and how it interconnected with the draft and the league's other mechanisms.