Josh Kennedy Was Told

[BlueFan4]

When we drafted Kennedy, we told him that we will build our future around him and Murphy, pretty disappointed in Carlton, but we got Judd.

[setanta17]

well to be honest the club really had no other alternative as WC were playing hard ball

[Lajon]

boo hoo.. all you whingers will be cheering as loudly as anyone when Juddy bursts through the middle of a stoppage, clears the ball and delivers it lace out to Fevvy.

[thylacine60]

boo hoo.. all you whingers will be cheering as loudly as anyone when Juddy bursts through the middle of a stoppage, clears the ball and delivers it lace out to Fevvy.

Bump sound from under computer desk.

[setanta17]

kennedy is only 20 so i think it was harsh to force him out

[Free Willy]

Similar thing happened in 92 with Minton-Conell. (Diesel trade)

3 years later we won the 95 premiership with Diesel winning the Norm Smith.

Some times hard business decisions need to be made.

Sad for Josh, we all liked him, he loved our club......... sad, but we have JUDD.

[BlueFan4]

Im just saying i dnt like the way it was handled by the CFC, but im over the moon we got juddy.

[Gilly1972]

I wonder if there is a statistically significant correlation between the anti-tankers and the anti-judders? :rolleyes:

[TOA.]

You told him all week he was required and will not be traded. 4pm yesterday he was told he was not required.

Probably could have been handled better by not telling him all week he was staying.

[Bluebear]

When we drafted Kennedy, we told him that we will build our future around him and Murphy, pretty disappointed in Carlton, but we got Judd.
After Josh ahs spent the summer with his family, and caught up woth his high school mates, he won't look back.

I'm sad to see him go, but some of the anxiety over the deal this week is spilling over as misplaced emotion.

Josh has gone in 3 days from a maligned dud in the eyes of some, to the centre piece of our resurgence..........even those who rated him here thought he wouldn't be a superstar.......just a very good CHF.......

Yes, we are a bit light on for talls, but hey, Austin to CHF and Harts into the backline...........who will notice.;)

It was an equitable deal........or as equitable as it was ever going ot get.

We had to give up something, as did the WCE.

Both have lost, but both have gained.............lets move on.:thumbsu:

[Bluebear]

You told him all week he was required and will not be traded. 4pm yesterday he was told he was not required.

Probably could have been handled better by not telling him all week he was staying.
Really?
So when Ratts spoke to him and Paul Bower about the possibility of being traded after Judd announced he was leaving his pathetic club behind.........he was then told he was a required player?

Hmmm, so why did Worsfold talk to him on Sunday?

Yeah, you know your stuff.:o

[TorresIsGod]

Similar thing happened in 92 with Minton-Conell. (Diesel trade)

3 years later we won the 95 premiership with Diesel winning the Norm Smith.

Some times hard business decisions need to be made.

Sad for Josh, we all liked him, he loved our club......... sad, but we have JUDD.

Did we? :cool:

[DamianBis]

Bluebear, Judd is still a 5 hour drive away from his home so it's not like he's really gone home.

Apparently his mother was really annoyed at him for going to west coast.

[tramman2000]

Bluebear, Judd is still a 5 hour drive away from his home so it's not like he's really gone home.

Apparently his mother was really annoyed at him for going to west coast.

and punnished him by writing a song about him...don't think he'll do that again!:rolleyes:

[TOA.]

Really?
So when Ratts spoke to him and Paul Bower about the possibility of being traded after Judd announced he was leaving his pathetic club behind.........he was then told he was a required player?

Hmmm, so why did Worsfold talk to him on Sunday?

Yeah, you know your stuff.:o


It was on CH 7 here in Perth. I get the feeling Loxley told the blokes unofficially.

[a1118374]

After Josh ahs spent the summer with his family, and caught up woth his high school mates, he won't look back.

I'm sad to see him go, but some of the anxiety over the deal this week is spilling over as misplaced emotion.

Josh has gone in 3 days from a maligned dud in the eyes of some, to the centre piece of our resurgence..........even those who rated him here thought he wouldn't be a superstar.......just a very good CHF.......

Yes, we are a bit light on for talls, but hey, Austin to CHF and Harts into the backline...........who will notice.;)

It was an equitable deal........or as equitable as it was ever going ot get.

We had to give up something, as did the WCE.

Both have lost, but both have gained.............lets move on.:thumbsu:


one the money BB. Love josh but hey, its judd

[Jackfrost]

The sign of a good negotiation is when both parties are unhappy.

Well done Carlton, Judd was my hero

[Magnificence]

I wonder if there is a statistically significant correlation between the anti-tankers and the anti-judders? :rolleyes:

Bingo!

[Dramoth]

I wonder if there is a statistically significant correlation between the anti-tankers and the anti-judders? :rolleyes:

I was fully anti-tanking, but hey... Judd is one of the all time bests and he will be awesome for us...

I was never anti-judd... just said that the club didnt really need him to succeed in the future.

[btdg]

I wonder if there is a statistically significant correlation between the anti-tankers and the anti-judders? :rolleyes:

I was massively anti-tanking, and massively pro-Judd.

In fact, the same logic supports both. Anti-tanking was about competing as hard as possible in every match and providing value to supporters who paid to watch. Getting Judd is about, well, competing as hard as possible over the next few seasons, and providing value to supporters who pay to watch...

[kouta666]

When we drafted Kennedy, we told him that we will build our future around him and Murphy

The future changes......... keep up! :)

[Faz 2000]

The most important thing about having a plan (eg. building future around Murphy and Kennedy) is knowing when to change the plan due to changing circumstances (eg. Chris Judd saying he wants in).

Ideally, yes, we'd keep Kennedy. And it could be a decision that bites us later. But... seriously... aside from Kennedy's supposed moping, I do not see ANY poor-handling by Carlton in this instance. They negotiated with WCE straight up, got the deal done at a price that left both parties going "hmmm... that was a lot to give up". Which is how a reasonable deal should feel.

[pumped]

Really?
So when Ratts spoke to him and Paul Bower about the possibility of being traded after Judd announced he was leaving his pathetic club behind.........he was then told he was a required player?

Hmmm, so why did Worsfold talk to him on Sunday?

Yeah, you know your stuff.:o

Wasn't there a statement made by Carlton early in the week saying Josh would not be part of any Judd deal?

[Bluebear]

Wasn't there a statement made by Carlton early in the week saying Josh would not be part of any Judd deal?
No.

Radio and newspapers reported that initially only pick three was on the table in response to the WCE initial bid of 1, 3, 20 and JK.

He was ALWAYS on the table - here on BF we had the deal 3, 20 and JK done over a month ago when Judd said he was leaving.

Secondly........we didn't lie to Josh, we have built a future around him and Murph.......Murph directly and JK in his trade value.

[HBF]

Wasn't there a statement made by Carlton early in the week saying Josh would not be part of any Judd deal?

Can't say that I recall that. The only player that was publically told was not going to be part of the Judd deal was Fevola.

[15_year_member]

It was reported widely in the Perth media and confirmed by Trevor Nisbett and kennedy's manager that Kennedy was not part of he initial offer. It was just 3 and 20 and remained at that untill the wednesday of trade week when carlton agreed to throw in kennedy. I know the eagles spoke to kennedy earlier than wednesday but i would say that was off the eagles own initiative as they had been asking carlton for him as part of the deal. Kennedy was given everything short of an ironclad guarantee he would not be traded before trading week by the blues and then told sternly on Thursday morning that he had no future at carlton and to basically p*** off.

It's not a criticism of carlton in any way but i really hope that the judd trade doesn't set a precadent and lead to virtual free agency. Even though i support one of the richest clubs in the comp and we would be a beneficiary i think it will destroy the comp as we know it and make AFL as boring as English Premier League Soccer where there are only a couply of teams who can ever win it and so 90% of games are a waste of time. How come Judd can choose which club he wants to go to and Kennedy can't even choose to force the club who signed a contract with him to honour it.

I am happy we got Kennedy and i think he will be good but if it wasn't my club involved i would like it if he told carlton to f*** off and refused to go and told them if he wasn't wanted they could pay out his contract and he will go PSD. Would be good to see the little guy stand up to the bullies who run the clubs (not just carlton).

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It was reported widely in the Perth media and confirmed by Trevor Nisbett and kennedy's manager that Kennedy was not part of he initial offer. It was just 3 and 20 and remained at that untill the wednesday of trade week when carlton agreed to throw in kennedy. I know the eagles spoke to kennedy earlier than wednesday but i would say that was off the eagles own initiative as they had been asking carlton for him as part of the deal. Kennedy was given everything short of an ironclad guarantee he would not be traded before trading week by the blues and then told sternly on Thursday morning that he had no future at carlton and to basically p*** off.Carlton had 4 things in mind .... 1. Get Judd 2. Don't trade Fevola 3. Don't trade number 1. 4. Don't trade anyone who doesn't want to go. This left us with very little room to move considering Judd's worth.

The Eagles effectively put Kennedy on the table because he was one of the only players we weren't 100% on keeping, due to having not become a huge fan favourite by weight of performance yet and due to being a WA boy who might be able to integrate more than a Victorian kid would. The Eagles wanted him, probably wanted Gibbs, Murphy and co too but that would have been damaging for the club as far as supporter response.

We were no doubt hoping for #3 and #20 and possibly Bower. Obviously Bower was never an option for the Eagles. Had the #1 not been Kreuzer and thus a star ruckman, I think we would have given it up.

[parrot]

It was ultimately a decision between Kruezer and JK. It was a tough decision, but the right decision. :)

[15_year_member]

Well done carlton. You can't expect anything of other clubs other than that they will do what is in their self interest to do and carlton got judd very cheap. West coast fans are not bitter at carlton but we are bitter at Judd and more so his manager Connors who acted very unprofessionally and lied to the eagles all year while he was secretly shopping Judd around to coll and carl. I also have no doubt he played a prominent role in talking Judd into going. He appears to be on the carlton payroll. He engineered hadley's departure from carlton using PSD leverage on Brisbane (after brisbane kept him on the list and rehab'd him numerous times in the last 3 years while they got no footy out of him. Talk about loyalty). Also and was also involved in carlton's approaches to both sumich and worsfold at the eagles. There is also no doubt that carlton tanked in 2nd half of season but again, you can only expect clubs to do what it is in their self interest to do. Anything else is naive. I was hoping for eagles to lose in 2001 when we got priority pick.

I am becoming doubtful on kennedy. He looks allright in clips on you tube but Brad Hardie (who might be a d******* but in my opinion has proven to be a pretty astute judge of footy players) subtly bagged him after the trade and said he would need to make "quantum leap" to get a game at the eagles.

Free agency is a realy bad idea. Especially after only 6 years service. It usually takes players 3-4 years to start getting a regular game. Players can walk out on clubs right when they are coming into their prime and the club gets nothing for their investment. If free agency comes in i think that hey need to give a head start to the club that invested in them and say that after 6 years only 75% of a players contract is included in the cap but if they change clubs it is 100% or some similar scheme. Give some kind of advantage to the club that nurtured them.

[parrot]

Well done carlton. You can't expect anything of other clubs other than that they will do what is in their self interest to do and carlton got judd very cheap...... Give some kind of advantage to the club that nurtured them.


Don't blame Judds manager, the blame rests on the Weagles administration for turning a blind-eye to the Weagles endemic drug culture. THIS was the reason Judd left. You only have yourselves to blame. End of Story :)

[15_year_member]

What evidence do you have to back that up? Did you hear from a mate of mate of mate who heard it from a taxi driver who gave a lift to Judd's cousins girlfriend or some other equally reliable source? That is your opinion only. Judd is best mates with Kerr and Cousins. He hung around with them outside footy and lived with Kerr for a considerable period of time. Hardly the behaviour of a person who is disgusted with rec drugs and wants to leave the club cos a handful of people there take them.

Make no mistake. Drugs are rife right through the AFL. 40 or so positive tests and counting and they prob only catch people 1% of the time. Thats 2 and half for every club. Do you really think your club is immune? If so why? Are you telling us that everyone else shit stinks but yours smells of roses?

Also, don't know if i will be bale to find it on the net now but i remember one of the few interviews Norman and Angwin gave after your club axed them for drug taking their main line of defence was that other senior players were doing it too and the club did nothing to them. Nobody pays attention because it is Angwin and Norman saying it but it does make you think doesn't it. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Other than Cousins and kerr what other eagles players do you have proof of taking drugs?

[bluebrew]

Well done carlton. You can't expect anything of other clubs other than that they will do what is in their self interest to do and carlton got judd very cheap. West coast fans are not bitter at carlton but we are bitter at Judd and more so his manager Connors who acted very unprofessionally and lied to the eagles all year while he was secretly shopping Judd around to coll and carl. I also have no doubt he played a prominent role in talking Judd into going. He appears to be on the carlton payroll. He engineered hadley's departure from carlton using PSD leverage on Brisbane (after brisbane kept him on the list and rehab'd him numerous times in the last 3 years while they got no footy out of him. Talk about loyalty). Also and was also involved in carlton's approaches to both sumich and worsfold at the eagles. There is also no doubt that carlton tanked in 2nd half of season but again, you can only expect clubs to do what it is in their self interest to do. Anything else is naive. I was hoping for eagles to lose in 2001 when we got priority pick.

I am becoming doubtful on kennedy. He looks allright in clips on you tube but Brad Hardie (who might be a d******* but in my opinion has proven to be a pretty astute judge of footy players) subtly bagged him after the trade and said he would need to make "quantum leap" to get a game at the eagles.

Free agency is a realy bad idea. Especially after only 6 years service. It usually takes players 3-4 years to start getting a regular game. Players can walk out on clubs right when they are coming into their prime and the club gets nothing for their investment. If free agency comes in i think that hey need to give a head start to the club that invested in them and say that after 6 years only 75% of a players contract is included in the cap but if they change clubs it is 100% or some similar scheme. Give some kind of advantage to the club that nurtured them.

Once the draft was started how can you expect players to be loyal if you make them go where they don't want to go? Or no Career?

The sooner free agency is bought in the better from day 1 scrap the draft let players chose.

[15_year_member]

Then it becomes like premier league where the poor clubs act as feeder clubs for the big ones. I don't think that there is anything wrong with the system as it stands. But i think free agency is inevitable. But like i said, i would like to see a competitive advantage built in for the club that drafted a player. Would carlton have gotten Judd if the eagles had the advantage of only 75% of his salary counting in our cap but 100% had to count in yours. I think not. They still could but they would start at a massive disadvantage.

[parrot]

Then it becomes like premier league where the poor clubs act as feeder clubs for the big ones. I..

Sort out the Weagles rampant drug culture, then you won't have to worry about captain's leaving your Club, and draftees not wanting to go to the Weagles e.g. Cotchin. :)

[Forrest Gimp]

Once the draft was started how can you expect players to be loyal if you make them go where they don't want to go? Or no Career?

The sooner free agency is bought in the better from day 1 scrap the draft let players chose.

Build don't buy

[15_year_member]

So you have no proof then, Parrot? Just your opinion. 2 players in 40 is not endemic. Every club would have 2 players who have tested positive.

And Cotchin's dad has come out and said that he was railroaded by the journalist with that quote. He says that they asked him he same question 20 times untill they got the answer they wanted and then made it a headline. He is just a bloke who's son is about to get drafted into AFL. Doesn't know how to deal with media.

Cotchins and his dad had a one and half hour interview with eagles recruiting mananger at their house 2 weeks ago and neither of them brought that subject up according to Woodhouse. Plenty of opportunity to ask but neither of them said a thing.

If you are going to make big statements back them up with some logic or proof or you just look look like a d*******.

[pumped]

No.

Radio and newspapers reported that initially only pick three was on the table in response to the WCE initial bid of 1, 3, 20 and JK.

He was ALWAYS on the table - here on BF we had the deal 3, 20 and JK done over a month ago when Judd said he was leaving.

Secondly........we didn't lie to Josh, we have built a future around him and Murph.......Murph directly and JK in his trade value.

I heard on ch 10 news one night that Josh was no longer part of the deal. Pretty sure it was Swann who was quoted but cannot be sure. Am sure however that the report was specifically related to Josh not being part of the deal. This was about 3 days before it went through.

[parrot]

So you have no proof then, Parrot? ...

Go listen to the Fed Police tapes of several Weagles players talking about buying hard-core drugs with their drug dealers, and talking about how they were concerned drugs they purchased would be stolen from their bags in the Weagles change rooms. Unbelievable stuff. I'm not sure what planet you've been on for the past 12 months. The Weagles have a shocking reputation throughout the football world for their drug culture. When parents of draftees express public concern over the Weagles drug culture, and their captain leaves because of it, you know it is starting to bite big time. What a mess. :)

[Forrest Gimp]

Go listen to the Fed Police tapes of several Weagles players talking about buying hard-core drugs with their drug dealers, and talking about how they were concerned drugs they purchased would be stolen from their bags in the Weagles change rooms. Unbelievable stuff. I'm not sure what planet you've been on for the past 12 months. The Weagles have a shocking reputation throughout the football world for their drug culture. When parents of draftees express public concern over the Weagles drug culture, and their captain leaves because of it, you know it is starting to bite big time. What a mess. :)

And your reply in regards to the Cotchin media beat-up?

[parrot]

And your reply in regards to the Cotchin media beat-up?

His father expressed public concerns over the Weagles drug culture. Entirely understandable. Don't blame the media, and everyone else. The Weagles endemic drugs culture has been going on for at least 3 years, and your CLub turned a bline-eye to it and covered it up. Only yourselves to blame. :)

[Forrest Gimp]

His father expressed public concerns over the Weagles drug culture. Entirely understandable. Don't blame the media, and everyone else. The Weagles endemic drugs culture has been going on for at least 3 years, and your CLub turned a bline-eye to it and covered it up. Only yourselves to blame. :)

The point was that his father never expressed public concerns, at least not without being asked the same question numerous times until the scummy journo got the answer to fit his bias view. In other words, it's all rosy and good, Cotchin will be ours if the Tigers f ark it up. Im not blaming the media for the antics of Kerr and Cuz, just trying to get the above Eagle posters point across, because for some odd reason, it keeps flying over your head.

[Bluebear]

I heard on ch 10 news one night that Josh was no longer part of the deal. Pretty sure it was Swann who was quoted but cannot be sure. Am sure however that the report was specifically related to Josh not being part of the deal. This was about 3 days before it went through.
Yeah, and I heard initially that WCE wanted 1, 3, 20 and JK.......and we were only offerring pick 3........

What we hear, what Journo's choose to say (some get their info from online forums........:o), and what the clubs know is reality of the trade are very different issues.

WCE interviewed JK on Sunday BEFORE trade week via phone.
He along with Bower and no doubt the other WA boys were told that its possible they may be part of the trade when Judd announced us as his preferred destination.

For any of these boys to be surprised when it came to the crunch is a bit silly.

I can understand JK feeling rejected, but as I have said before, get him a summer of Sunday roasts with mum, catching up with his high school buddies......Melbourne and the CFC will become a distant memory.

His biggest issue will be getting a game for WCE.

[parrot]

The point was that his father never expressed public concerns....

I heard the interview, his father did express public concerns, and I was amazed at how honest and open he was. An entirely understandable concern. Sort out the Weagles drug culture and this won't be a problem in the future like it IS now. :)

[parrot]

Yeah, and I heard initially that WCE wanted 1, 3, 20 and JK.......and we were only offerring pick 3........
....

Correct. Their initial demands weren't just #1, but #1 and #3 plus more! We were solid in our offer from day 1, and they eventually blinked and the deal was done. Swann handled the negotiation process perfectly. :)

[pumped]

Yeah, and I heard initially that WCE wanted 1, 3, 20 and JK.......and we were only offerring pick 3........

What we hear, what Journo's choose to say (some get their info from online forums........:o), and what the clubs know is reality of the trade are very different issues.

WCE interviewed JK on Sunday BEFORE trade week via phone.
He along with Bower and no doubt the other WA boys were told that its possible they may be part of the trade when Judd announced us as his preferred destination.

For any of these boys to be surprised when it came to the crunch is a bit silly.

I can understand JK feeling rejected, but as I have said before, get him a summer of Sunday roasts with mum, catching up with his high school buddies......Melbourne and the CFC will become a distant memory.

His biggest issue will be getting a game for WCE.

My main interest in this story is not primarily about how Josh was treated. My interest is to how much I believe we have lost. I would have had Josh as one of 10 on the whole list who would be untradeable. I really hope he is happy at WC and I also hope he has a great career with them. Either way I believe it was in the best interests of Carlton to have him stay. With regards to the media you could be correct in that it may have been mis reporting.

[PeterDean]

He could always nominate to come back to Carlton in a couple of years.

Goddard can come too if he wants.

[Bluebear]

He could always nominate to come back to Carlton in a couple of years.

Goddard can come too if he wants.
Didn't he used to barrack for us as a kid?:p

[greatwhiteshark]

Once the draft was started how can you expect players to be loyal if you make them go where they don't want to go? Or no Career?

The sooner free agency is bought in the better from day 1 scrap the draft let players chose.
So if that happens Bluebrew and we get free agency then are you talking that we remove the salary cap as well? Or keep the salary cap and for example in this instance Judd wants to go to Carlton then the Eagles put a figure on his head of lets say hypothetically 5 million for the transfer and then away he goes?
Free agancey where we still have a salary cap or plain and simply open slather? If its open slather then West Coast and Adelaide are going to win many many flags. Whole states behind them, unlimited sponsors, unlimited funding. No one wants that surely. It could even be you guys as Pratt is on Board, there has to be hope for all clubs and open slather means that is gone.

[TOA.]

Don't blame Judds manager, the blame rests on the Weagles administration for turning a blind-eye to the Weagles endemic drug culture. THIS was the reason Judd left. You only have yourselves to blame. End of Story :)


No Parrot. You are wrong and I know that for a fact. I would post why if I knew I wouldnt get banned.

[pantskyle]

i hope we play kennedy straight away and not try to build him

[parrot]

No Parrot. You are wrong and I know that for a fact. I would post why if I knew I wouldnt get banned.

I'm sure you have a nice denial spin lined up. But the drug culture was/is the problem at Weagleland. You may have avoided any penalties from the lame AFL, but it has cost you in other ways i.e. captain walking out, and draftees not wanting to go to Weagleland etc etc. :)

[15_year_member]

How can you "listen" to a newspaper interview, parrot? Your credibility is shrinking with every post. It was a quote printed in a newspaper, not an interview. And Cotchins dad apologised to Woodhouse since and explained that the journo kept coming at him with the same question untill he made some sort of flippant comment and then ran with the headline "Cotchin's dad slams Eagles". I will also tell you again that neither Cotchin or his dad have ever brought up the issue with the eagles directly including in their 90 minute club interview. They were so concerned about it they didn't mention it once.

The only player caught on police tapes is Daniel Kerr. There were not several players. The only eagles players with any evidence of drug use against them is Kerr and Cousins. Those 2 aside, how can you prove that your club is cleaner than ours? Thats right, you can't. So get off your high horse. And if we are such an unprofessional party club how have we made it to the finals for the last 6 years in a row? Your club hasn't made it once. And half our best 25 have played less than 50 games which means we are likely to be making the finals for another 6 years to come. Our club is just as young as yours and already 12 nor spots higher on the ladder. Players would be rapt to go to west coast. First class facilities, best development program in the comp, a popular young coach loved by all the players, no internal dissent or board challenges etc, a rich club who can and does set players up for life outside footy and a perenial finals contender. Any other clubs other than collingwood who can offer that? Yours certainly can't.

If you want to keep making drug allegations against west coast back them up with something. I acknowledge that a handful of players have drug habits. I don't acknowledge that it's endemic. And i think there are players at every club who do it.

Judd left for money. Pure and simple. And because he is arrogant enough to think that any club he plays for will make the final 4. It takes more than one gun midfielder to win a flag. Our club will move on. It would be worse to lose Cox or Glass than Judd.

[parrot]

How can you "listen" to a newspaper interview, parrot? ..

Heard him on radio. Sounds like you missed it. He was quite candid about his concerns regarding the Weagles endemic drug culture. On those Fed Police tapes, I'm not sure if you've heard them, the conversations certainly indicated that the problem was widespread at Weagleland. I remember when the Weagles CEO initially denied the problem early this year, and then it latter came out that they knew about it for 2-3 years and did nothing. A pathetic effort from this regional franchise Club. And now they are paying the price. I'm still not convinced that they have really address their problematic drug culture. BTW everyone knows Judd left because of the Weagles drug problem. He put the Weagles on notice early this year, and obviously he wasn't convinced that the issue had been addressed. Did you notice why Judd didn't even talk to Hawthorn. There's your clue. :)

[15_year_member]

He didn't talk to Hawthorn because he is still angry with them over the fact that he believes that they lied to him in 2001 when they agreed to take him at numnber 1 and then changed their mind on the day. trevor Nisbett is on 6pr being interviewed now about the Judd deal and trade week if you want to listen.

[parrot]

He didn't talk to Hawthorn because he is still angry with them over the fact that he believes that they lied....

That's not the reason. And we're not allowed to discuss "the reason". :)

[15_year_member]

You can have your opinion and i will have mine, Parrot. You can't back up any of what you are saying. It is your opinion and there is plenty of evidence to thr contrary.

A few points about the Nisbett interview for those interested -

- He says that carlton definately tanked
- That the eagles were not going to offer Judd anywhere near the money that carlton did or a 5 year deal. More evidence that Judd left for the money.
- That west coast did a deal with carlton only becuase 3, 20 and kennedy was the best offer on the table, not because they cared about where Judd wanted to go. They thought 3, 20 and Kennedy trumped 2 and 18 from Richmond. But if Richmond had acquired another top 10 pick to throw in (which they were trying to do) eagles would have traded Judd to richmond whether he liked it or not. They were going to do the best for the club, not Judd.
- Eagles really wanted kennedy and rated him highly and see him as a major part of the package.
- That they are disappointed that Judd conspired with carlton and picked one club for eagles to deal with thus preventing eagles from getting market value.
- That Connors and Judd had b*******ed us all year and were shopping judd around secretly. He would have liked the courtesy of Judd and his manager keeping us informed.

[parrot]

You can have your opinion and i will have mine, Parrot. You can't back up any of what you are saying. It is your opinion and there is plenty of evidence to thr contrary.

A few points about the Nisbett interview for those interested -

- He says that carlton definately tanked
- That the eagles were not going to offer Judd anywhere near the money that carlton did or a 5 year deal. More evidence that Judd left for the money.
- That west coast did a deal with carlton only becuase 3, 20 and kennedy was the best offer on the table, not because they cared about where Judd wanted to go. They thought 3, 20 and Kennedy trumped 2 and 18 from Richmond. But if Richmond had acquired another top 10 pick to throw in (which they were trying to do) eagles would have traded Judd to richmond whether he liked it or not. They were going to do the best for the club, not Judd.
- Eagles really wanted kennedy and rated him highly and see him as a major part of the package.
- That they are disappointed that Judd conspired with carlton and picked one club for eagles to deal with thus preventing eagles from getting market value.
- That Connors and Judd had b*******ed us all year and were shopping judd around secretly. He would have liked the courtesy of Judd and his manager keeping us informed.

Newsflash. EVERYONE knew that Judd was a strong chance of leaving. I even wrote a thread about it. When a Captain of a premiership team states publically at the start of the year, that he'll weigh his options up at the end of the year, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know he may well leave. And this was done right in the middle of Nisbett deliberately telling untruths to the public about the extent of the Weagles drug problem. Weagles need to clean up their endemic drug culture, which has become a slur on our great game, before they start lecturing others. No wonder Judd left, and this years draftees have reservations about going to Weagleland. :)

[15_year_member]

Judd could well have been waiting to the end of year to discuss contract amp up his price. Plenty of players do that. And again, parrot, a load of rhetoric but NO PROOF OR LOGIC TO BACK IT UP. Back it up, moron or shut up. Judd left for money, pure and simple. He wouldn't have gotten the same money at eagles. We have more than 1 good player and tend to be conservative with contracts. We don't buy players, we develop them. You can't buy success. And we don't want players at our club who are only there for money. We think we have more to sell ourselves with than just money.

We have only ever lost 2 players that we wanted to keep - Gehrig and Judd. The other 20 or so interstate players at our club are perfectly happy. Even the ones who aren't getting a game at the moment and the ones who could earn more elsewhere want to stay. The "culture problem" doesn't bother them. Was Judd the only person at the club that doesn't take drugs is he?

I have told you before he is best mates with both Kerr and Cousins. He knows drugs exist at every club. What does it say about your club that we have such a big "culture problem" yet have been 10 times more succesful than your club in the last 5 years? How bad must your list and club management be if they can't compete with drug addled party boys like the eagles? And what does it say that you had to offer him so much money to go to your club?

The only reason a draftee would rather be at your club than ours is that they are much more likely to get into the best 22 at your club than they are at ours. In every other category our club is a more desirable destination than yours. You have a very questionable record at player development. the only good young players on your list you got with 1st round picks. Why couldn't you get more out of 2nd and 3rd picks and players like Walker and Kennedy. Your clubs development system doesn't compare to that at ours, the crows and coll who are the best 3 in the comp.

[parrot]

Judd could well have been waiting to the end of year to discuss contract amp up his price.....

The drug culture at Weagleland was the reason he left. I mean, how many more police tapes of drug deals, or players booked in for rehab do you need for Proof of the problem. lol. Weagleland has an out-of-control drug culture. Hopefully they can sort it out. The CEO should be held accountable though for turning a blind-eye to the problem because of commercial reasons. Speaking of which, have you noticed that some of your sponsors are walking as well. You only have yourselves to blame for this mess. :)

[15_year_member]

With 40,000 members and a waiting list for membership of another 12,000 i'm sure the eagles are really struggling to get sponsors. The biggest sporting club in WA who are on the back page of the paper every day. Yeah, a real struggle to get sponsors. Only one sponsor left and they stated it's because the eagles hiked the price on them. You are a moron.

There is only 1 tape and 1 player on it and 1 player in rehab. That tape is 5 years old. No evidence against the other 38 players. Why can't you beat us (or anyone else) if everything at our club "is such a mess" and your so professional and squeaky clean? Why are none of the other 38 players concerned about the drug use and "culture problem"? Judd must be the only player with a conscience.

You carry on with your fine recent record of success and be happy that you are a clean club. We will carry on developing players instead of buying them and making the finals every year with all our culture problems.

[parrot]

With 40,000 members and a waiting list for membership of another 12,000 i'm sure the eagles are really struggling to get sponsors. ....

The Weagles are a soul-less regional franchise team. Your rent-a-crowd supporters know little about the game, and is the reason why there is no atmosphere at your games. Judd even mentioned he was looking forward to the big Blues V Pies etc blockbuster games in front of 90k at the G. That is what football is all about, not playing at a regional stadium loaded with coorporate superboxes, and supporters banging little yellow plastic sticks together behind their goals. lol. I mean the whole Weagle franchise thing is just cringeworthy. :)

[15_year_member]

Yeah. Your right. Optus Oval is such a first class sporting facility. Who wouldn't want to play for a club that calls that place home? I wonder why the AFL stopped scheduling games there. If we had a big enough stadium we wold get 90,000 for big games too.

And unlike when you play collingwood most of the 90,000 would be eagles supporters. You mob probably contributes 30,00 of the crowd to the 90,000 at the MCG. 60,000 are collingwood supporters. Eagles members also pay the highest membership fees in the AFL so it is hardly rent-a-crowd. It's people who really want to go. Your club is the one who would need to give tickets away for free to get 40,000 of your own fans to go to a game. Your memberships are probably half the price of ours because nobody wants one.

You needed a sugar dady to bail you out of your mess. Otherwise you would be begging the AFL for a handout to save yourselves. You needed to offer Judd twice as much money as anyone else to get him to go to your club. Otherwise he would have gone for collingwood. get some runs on the board before you start bagging clubs that are twice as rich, twice as succesful and twice as professional as you.

[Bluebear]

Yeah. Your right. Optus Oval is such a first class sporting facility. Who wouldn't want to play for a club that calls that place home? I wonder why the AFL stopped scheduling games there. If we had a big enough stadium we wold get 90,000 for big games too.

And unlike when you play collingwood most of the 90,000 would be eagles supporters. You mob probably contributes 30,00 of the crowd to the 90,000 at the MCG. 60,000 are collingwood supporters. Eagles members also pay the highest membership fees in the AFL so it is hardly rent-a-crowd. It's people who really want to go. Your club is the one who would need to give tickets away for free to get 40,000 of your own fans to go to a game. Your memberships are probably half the price of ours because nobody wants one.

You needed a sugar dady to bail you out of your mess. Otherwise you would be begging the AFL for a handout to save yourselves. You needed to offer Judd twice as much money as anyone else to get him to go to your club. Otherwise he would have gone for collingwood. get some runs on the board before you start bagging clubs that are twice as rich, twice as succesful and twice as professional as you.

Grapes ripen at the end of summer mate.

Try again then.:thumbsu:

[15_year_member]

If you reckon we have reason to be jealous of the team that finished 15th please explain why?

[parrot]

If you reckon we have reason to be jealous of the team that finished 15th please explain why?

Our list has a better future than yours. :)

[Bluebear]

If you reckon we have reason to be jealous of the team that finished 15th please explain why?
If you confuse jealousy with sour grapes then no amount of explaining will khelp you.

You have been bitching and moaning on this board ever since the Judd deal started, and right now, it looks like sour grapes.

All your mates packed up and left once the deal was done, and now what we have is a handful of Tiges supporters (its hard to get angry at them, they scare so easily), and you.

You are welome to continue your silly little discussions, but as I said, its starting to look like sour grapes.:thumbsu:

[mick]

Parrot wrote: The Weagles are a soul-less..

Big call there Parrot. At least half the posters on this pro-Carlton thread are taking a consquentialist stance on the clubs treatment of Kennedy. I would think that indicates that it is Carlton who are being soul-less.

It seems to me Carlton have taken the moral low ground by saying "It doesn't matter how we treat our players, staff or former captain as long as we are going to win more games"

This "ends justifies the means" rationale is bereft of moral guidance, good Carlton people are being hurt, this doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it should bother the Carlton players. Kernahan's vulgar expression "We are Carlton, F*** the rest" only means something other than empty rhetoric if the Carlton administration looks after its own.

Sadly for your club, I don't think you are looking after your those who have tried their best for the navy blue.

From a Hawthorn supporters perspective I am pretty happy that you seem to regained some of your former arrogance, it is good for the competition. Footy needs villians :- your mob are fitting the bill nicely. Hopefully this season marks the end of your time at the bottom of the ladder, I genuinely hope you improve to ninth (and stay there).

[SS_Fury]

Parrot, i do believe after reading this last few pages, you have been OWNED. Your comebacks are weak and lack intellect- you dont base your arguments on fact only heresay. Its almost as tragic as the smile you put on the end of every post >>>> :)

[15_year_member]

We had the worst run with injury of any club in the comp this year and still finished 3rd on the ladder. We have 4 players on our list over 25 - braun, wirra, fletcher and cousins. Half of our best 25 have played less than 50 games. Blokes like Nicoski, Jamie Graham, Sam Butler, Priddis, Rosa, Waters, Hurn, Le Cras, Mitch Brown, jamie McNamara, now Kennedy plus the blokes we have gunning it in the WAFL every week and 4 draft picks in the top 22 this year.

Our list is just as young as yours and we are already finals hardenned and finsihed third while you are 15th. I can only imagine how good we will be when all these blokes get to 80-100 games and come into their best footy. Most of them would already get a game at any team in the comp. your player development record is very suspect and you are yet to prove that you can find and develop decent players with draft picks outside the 1st round which is what you need to do stay in the 8 over a long period. You have no KPP's. You won't win a flag without those. Both first line KPP's and players that can fill in when they get injured.

Seriously, what have you got besides Fev, judd, stevens, Gibbs, murphy, carrazzo and scotland. I can't see anything at all. Wouldn't trade your list for ours in a million years. You at least 4 years away from being contenders and that is if you do everything right from this point forwards.

BTW, other than Judd that is a very slow midfield. You will need some pace there. Gibbs is very slow for a young fellow. Pagan was forced to play him in the backline for much of the year because he is too slow to leave in the midfield.

[parrot]

Parrot wrote:

Big call there Parrot. At least half the posters on this pro-Carlton thread are taking a consquentialist s.....


Do see why a Hawthorm supporter preaching morals is just a little funny given some recent "discoveries". :)

[15_year_member]

It exists at every club. Don't think your shit doesnt stink. And they finished way above you on the ladder as well despite "culture problems". Hawks have done a far better job at rebuilding their list than Carlton which to me indicates that they are a more professional club. They have found decent players outside the 1st round of the draft. Key to success. and they focussed on getting KPP's when they were at the bottom which is a very wise stragegy. KPP's much harder to find and take longer to develop than midfielders. Carlton would do well to follow the hawks model.

And they don't treat their long time players and captains with the contempt that you treated Whitnall. Or treat draftees with the disrespect that you showed kennedy. That could have been done much better by carlton. Don't think that your treatment of Whitnall hasn't been noticed by the other players on your list. the only other club that does shit like that is freo. That is not a flattering comparison.

[parrot]

...Blokes like Nicoski, Jamie Graham, Sam Butler, Priddis, Rosa, Waters, Hurn, Le Cras, Mitch Brown, jamie McNamara, ....

lol. You're not going to get far with those middle-of-the-roaders. Without Judd, you'll struggle to make the 8 in 2008. :)

[15_year_member]

We already did, parrot. We finished third with all those "middle of the roaders" running the show. In fact a few of them are premiership players. Judd contributed nothing for second half of the year. Cousins played 5 games for the year, Fletcher and Embley were injured all year and Kerr wasn't there for the finals and we still finished 3rd and were competitive in both finals games. So those players already have performed on the biggest stage and they have played less than 50 games. And they would walk into your side, i guarantee you. We wouldn't know about your blokes on the big stage because they can't get within a bulls roar of it.

[SS_Fury]

lol. You're not going to get far with those middle-of-the-roaders. Without Judd, you'll struggle to make the 8 in 2008. :)

stupidest post of the year goes to you mr budgie :thumbsu:

[Bluebear]

It exists at every club. Don't think your shit doesnt stink.
The cry of the guilty........"but everyone is doing it......"
..........yes........of course they are. ;)


And they finished way above you on the ladder as well despite "culture problems". Hawks have done a far better job at rebuilding their list than Carlton which to me indicates that they are a more professional club.
or it indicates that they bottomed out a couple of years ahead of us, started the rebuild ahead of us, and in a couple of years time we will be roughly where they were this year...............no.....that is silly..........you must be right. :rolleyes:

They have found decent players outside the 1st round of the draft. Key to success. and they focussed on getting KPP's when they were at the bottom which is a very wise stragegy. KPP's much harder to find and take longer to develop than midfielders. Carlton would do well to follow the hawks model.
Fevola - pick 38, arguably the best FF in the comp
Thornton - rookie list (Hawks obsessed with this bloke :D)
O'hAilpin - rookie list.
Simpson - pick 45
Fisher - pick 72
Carrazzo - rookie list

Gee, I can see what you mean. We have been so dependant on those first round picks that we really should have looked later in the draft and to the rookie list more.:rolleyes:

And they don't treat their long time players and captains with the contempt that you treated Whitnall. Or treat draftees with the disrespect that you showed kennedy.
Vandenberg, captain and played reserves mst of the year before being "asked to retire". Cleaqrly his emotions when annmouncing it gave away plenty about ho it was handled.

Thompson - shipped off to the Roos in his prime
Croad - shown the door to Freo
Rawlings.......
Brereton

I won't go on...............:o

That could have been done much better by carlton. Don't think that your treatment of Whitnall hasn't been noticed by the other players on your list. the only other club that does shit like that is freo. That is not a flattering comparison.
You're right.
The list will have noticed.
They will notice that it doesn't matter if you have been at the club for 1 year or ten years, doesn't matter if you are player 38 on the list or the club captain.
We expect every player to prepare themselves as an elite athlete for every season.
To come back without having piled on 6-10 kgs........without having spent the break at the dog track woofing down pies and beers...........

They will notice. They will understand, and you watch them push themselves harder because of it.
We would love to be in the business of being nice and friendly to everyone, and not treading on toes. We are in the business of winning flags though, and Lance had to take one for the team.

[mick]

Do see why a Hawthorm supporter preaching morals is just a little funny given some recent "discoveries". :)

No, I don't see the humour in it, I don't even see the relevance.I don't see how recent discoveries have a bearing on Hawthorn's moral compass.

I also don't see how Angwin and Norman's testing positive to drugs is a reflection on Carlton's moral fibre. What is important is how clubs react when their players do encounter common social problems. Carlton effectively sacked Angwin on the spot with no thought to counselling or helping him recieve treatment.

I would have thought that the assistance that WC gave to Cousins in overcoming his drug problems was a far more morally balanced outcome than what Carlton provided to Angwin:-yet you have the hauteur to call WC "soul-less"


Even dyed in the wool Carlton people can see how your club is forsaking honour and decency in it's chase for premiership points. If Carlton fans think that that the treatment of Kennedy and Whitnall is justified, that is their right but the hypocrisy of calling other clubs soul-less is absolutely staggering.

Blue bear wrote:Vandenberg, captain and played reserves mst of the year before being "asked to retire". Cleaqrly his emotions when annmouncing it gave away plenty about ho it was handled.

Thompson - shipped off to the Roos in his prime
Croad - shown the door to Freo
Rawlings.......
Brereton

That is just nonsense.

Vanders only became emotional when he mentioned his parents weekly 6 hour drive to watch him play. His love and appreciation for his parents is no indication of his treatment at the hands of Hawthorn.

Thompson asked to be traded, feeling he needed a fresh start because of his medical condition. Hawthorn helped him in his move, luckily the Roos were able to provide adequate compensation.

Rawlings wanted a four year deal, which was too much of a risk in Hawthorn's eyes. Unfortunately the Roos were unable to provide adequate compensation this time around. Rawlings still got his 4 yr deal and the money which he thought he deserved. Clearly time has shown that both the Kangaroos and Hawthorn were right in their assessment of Rawlings, It was the Bulldogs and Rawlings himself that over rated his ability. This differs from the Whitnall situation in that we attempted to accomodate his wishes and didn't sabotage any future career in the sport.

Croad:- possibly similar to Cartlon's treatment of Kennedy. Except that Croad was at the end of a contract rather than the beginning of one. Many Hawthorn fans and even Club directors were upset by the fact that Croad was traded despite the fact that we were getting Hodge and Mitchell, which is in stark contrast to the "ends justifies the means" attitude displayed by Carlton fans on Kennedy's departure.

Brereton was offered a contract to stay with Hawthorn, it wasn't up to Dermies expectations. Rather than cruel his career by letting the world know that his hip was stuffed, we let him further his career in Sydney. We did our former star a favour rather than destroy his career as Carlton have done with Whitnall.

Blue bear wrote:[We are in the business of winning flags though, and Lance had to take one for the team.

The point is that he didn't have to take one for the team, Carlton did not have to destroy his career, they simply had to delist him and let him find his own way.

Even former club champions like Koutafides are critical of the club's recent moral decisons, particularly that of Whitnall. Kouta made the following comments on SEN: "Was not done properly at all" and "He deserves more respect". Doesn't that strike a chord with any Blues fans or does the sight of that redneck lardarse walking out the door with his tail between his legs cause so much relief that there is no room for compassion.


All clubs are in the business of winning flags, they should also be in the business of looking after current and past players and should treat them with respect and dignity. Carlton may have improved its list, but at what expense?

[parrot]

No, I don't see the humour in it, I don't even see the relevance.I don't see how recent discoveries have a bearing on Hawthorn's moral compass.....

Those discoveries DEFINE your Club's Moral Compass - not once, not twice but 3 times. lol Talk about hypocrisy. Just hilarious. :)

[BlueFan4]

Yeah. Your right. Optus Oval is such a first class sporting facility. Who wouldn't want to play for a club that calls that place home? I wonder why the AFL stopped scheduling games there. If we had a big enough stadium we wold get 90,000 for big games too.

And unlike when you play collingwood most of the 90,000 would be eagles supporters. You mob probably contributes 30,00 of the crowd to the 90,000 at the MCG. 60,000 are collingwood supporters. Eagles members also pay the highest membership fees in the AFL so it is hardly rent-a-crowd. It's people who really want to go. Your club is the one who would need to give tickets away for free to get 40,000 of your own fans to go to a game. Your memberships are probably half the price of ours because nobody wants one.

You needed a sugar dady to bail you out of your mess. Otherwise you would be begging the AFL for a handout to save yourselves. You needed to offer Judd twice as much money as anyone else to get him to go to your club. Otherwise he would have gone for collingwood. get some runs on the board before you start bagging clubs that are twice as rich, twice as succesful and twice as professional as you.

16 flags, what about you donkey?

[mick]

Those discoveries DEFINE your Club's Moral Compass - not once, not twice but 3 times. lol Talk about hypocrisy. Just hilarious. :)

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Player X's alleged offences is no more indicative of the Hawthorn football clubs moral fibre than is John Nicholls prison record or Angwin and Norman's drug use a reflection on Carltons.

Two of the three clubs mentioned in this thread have assisted players identified with drug problems through a rehabilitation process, Carlton on the other hand sacked their players who obviously needed help. Which is the more morally correct response to this social dilema? I am not saying that Carlton was wrong in sacking Angwin, but West Coast and the other club should not be condemned for assisting their players in times of trouble.

You condemned another club as being soul-less, yet it is your clubs administration that is seemingly acting without conscience, particularly towards your former players.

[borissey]

Things change. Life changes. Interest rates change.

They may have told Kennedy we'd build a club around him. 2 years later the Club was still struggling and we took the chance to recruit one of the best players in the country. Someone had to go to make the recruitment work.

Its not as though Kennedy is being shipped to Fitzroy FFS, its the all-conquering Eagles who have a great list, are flushed with cash and will stay good for the foreseeable future.

Melodramatic.

[Bluebear]

I also don't see how Angwin and Norman's testing positive to drugs is a reflection on Carlton's moral fibre. What is important is how clubs react when their players do encounter common social problems. Carlton effectively sacked Angwin on the spot with no thought to counselling or helping him recieve treatment.

Angwin was way off the rails. More than what was reported in the media.
Very bad apple, had to go.

I would have thought that the assistance that WC gave to Cousins in overcoming his drug problems was a far more morally balanced outcome than what Carlton provided to Angwin:-yet you have the hauteur to call WC "soul-less"

Are you positive that this help wasn't offered to Norman?
Cousins had multiple PUBLIC incidents before WCE acted, and he admitted he had a problem.
Norman was kept on and the club tried to help him, but in the end he was not interested enough in being an AFL footballer, and didn't think he had a problem.


Even dyed in the wool Carlton people can see how your club is forsaking honour and decency in it's chase for premiership points.
One of the most embarrassing things I've seen typed on BF.
Did your club foresake honour and decency when it traded Rawlings to the Roos for two top picks, knowing he had MAJOR mental health issue?


If Carlton fans think that that the treatment of Kennedy and Whitnall is justified, that is their right but the hypocrisy of calling other clubs soul-less is absolutely staggering.
Kennedy - didn't want to lose him but in the end, he is from WA, after a summer of Sunday roasts with mum, and hanging out with the mates he grew up with, I'm sure the disappointment of being traded to a club with a real chance at a flag next year will ease.:rolleyes:

Lance - after lobbying hard for the captaincy over the summer he was rewarde. He then went about (with full knowledge of his knee problems) and put on over 5 kilo's DURING THE SEASON.......played poorly, on and off the bench.......dishonouring his teamamtes and the Navy blue jumper.

We are aiming to be a flag threat in 3-4 years.
Lance has got 2-3 left in the tank.
Why keep him on, only to lose him on the cusp of that flag tilt, and have to blood somone else? That would be stupid.............not just average stupid...............Richmond stupid.

No one took interest in him last week and now he is free to look elswhere for a game.
What should we have done in your opinion?:confused:


Rawlings wanted a four year deal, which was too much of a risk in Hawthorn's eyes. Unfortunately the Roos were unable to provide adequate compensation this time around.
Right. So its O.K. for your club to make a call on the future value of a player to the side, and let him go.......but if we do it it's without "honour and decency"................you are a hypocrit.


Rawlings still got his 4 yr deal and the money which he thought he deserved. Clearly time has shown that both the Kangaroos and Hawthorn were right in their assessment of Rawlings, It was the Bulldogs and Rawlings himself that over rated his ability. This differs from the Whitnall situation in that we attempted to accomodate his wishes and didn't sabotage any future career in the sport.
Ever thought that maybe his inability to prepare his body for the rigours of AFL had "sabotaged" Lance's career?

Croad:- possibly similar to Cartlon's treatment of Kennedy. Except that Croad was at the end of a contract rather than the beginning of one.
Right, and if Kennedy stands firm he stays a Blue and we go to plan B for Judd.
He received poor advice from his manager and allowed his client to be bullied.

Many Hawthorn fans and even Club directors were upset by the fact that Croad was traded despite the fact that we were getting Hodge and Mitchell, which is in stark contrast to the "ends justifies the means" attitude displayed by Carlton fans on Kennedy's departure.

Brereton was offered a contract to stay with Hawthorn, it wasn't up to Dermies expectations. Rather than cruel his career by letting the world know that his hip was stuffed, we let him further his career in Sydney. We did our former star a favour rather than destroy his career as Carlton have done with Whitnall.
Had we let Lance go to the Dees two years ago this would be the exact same scenario.
What if you had held onto Dermie for a couple of years, and he declined the way he did.
Who would have taken him? Would it have been similar to the current situation with Lance?



Blue bear wrote:[

The point is that he didn't have to take one for the team, Carlton did not have to destroy his career, they simply had to delist him and let him find his own way.

Wow, you like being dramatic.
We have had a discussion with Lance to inform him that his opportunities to play senior footbvall with us will be severaly limited next year, and that no club offerred a trade for him.

NIXON then went public like a spoilt child whinging about what we had done to him.
Lance was offered a job at the club to keep him involved at a coaching development level.........what a kick in the guts that must be.:rolleyes:



Even former club champions like Koutafides are critical of the club's recent moral decisons, particularly that of Whitnall. Kouta made the following comments on SEN: "Was not done properly at all" and "He deserves more respect". Doesn't that strike a chord with any Blues fans or does the sight of that redneck lardarse walking out the door with his tail between his legs cause so much relief that there is no room for compassion.


All clubs are in the business of winning flags, they should also be in the business of looking after current and past players and should treat them with respect and dignity. Carlton may have improved its list, but at what expense?

We offered Lance repsect. We eased his way out during the year when his weight had ballooned out and allowed him to come back and try and prove his fitness........couldn't kick over a jam tin. We offered him a job with the coachong staff, as A SIGN OF RESPECT, and would have gone through the due process of press conference etc - Nixon refused it, and decided to go public and bitch and moan........not us.
We offered him a dignified exit - Nixon refused it.

Unfortunate, but that's life.

[thylacine60]

Angwin was way off the rails. More than what was reported in the media.
Very bad apple, had to go.



Are you positive that this help wasn't offered to Norman?
Cousins had multiple PUBLIC incidents before WCE acted, and he admitted he had a problem.
Norman was kept on and the club tried to help him, but in the end he was not interested enough in being an AFL footballer, and didn't think he had a problem.


One of the most embarrassing things I've seen typed on BF.
Did your club foresake honour and decency when it traded Rawlings to the Roos for two top picks, knowing he had MAJOR mental health issue?


Kennedy - didn't want to lose him but in the end, he is from WA, after a summer of Sunday roasts with mum, and hanging out with the mates he grew up with, I'm sure the disappointment of being traded to a club with a real chance at a flag next year will ease.:rolleyes:

Lance - after lobbying hard for the captaincy over the summer he was rewarde. He then went about (with full knowledge of his knee problems) and put on over 5 kilo's DURING THE SEASON.......played poorly, on and off the bench.......dishonouring his teamamtes and the Navy blue jumper.

We are aiming to be a flag threat in 3-4 years.
Lance has got 2-3 left in the tank.
Why keep him on, only to lose him on the cusp of that flag tilt, and have to blood somone else? That would be stupid.............not just average stupid...............Richmond stupid.

No one took interest in him last week and now he is free to look elswhere for a game.
What should we have done in your opinion?:confused:


Right. So its O.K. for your club to make a call on the future value of a player to the side, and let him go.......but if we do it it's without "honour and decency"................you are a hypocrit.


Ever thought that maybe his inability to prepare his body for the rigours of AFL had "sabotaged" Lance's career?


Right, and if Kennedy stands firm he stays a Blue and we go to plan B for Judd.
He received poor advice from his manager and allowed his client to be bullied.

Had we let Lance go to the Dees two years ago this would be the exact same scenario.
What if you had held onto Dermie for a couple of years, and he declined the way he did.
Who would have taken him? Would it have been similar to the current situation with Lance?



Wow, you like being dramatic.
We have had a discussion with Lance to inform him that his opportunities to play senior footbvall with us will be severaly limited next year, and that no club offerred a trade for him.

NIXON then went public like a spoilt child whinging about what we had done to him.
Lance was offered a job at the club to keep him involved at a coaching development level.........what a kick in the guts that must be.:rolleyes:



We offered Lance repsect. We eased his way out during the year when his weight had ballooned out and allowed him to come back and try and prove his fitness........couldn't kick over a jam tin. We offered him a job with the coachong staff, as A SIGN OF RESPECT, and would have gone through the due process of press conference etc - Nixon refused it, and decided to go public and bitch and moan........not us.
We offered him a dignified exit - Nixon refused it.

Unfortunate, but that's life.

When do you work?

[Bluebear]

When do you work?
2pm - 9pm tonight, but it varies day to day.

I have to work when others don't.;)

[mick]

Double post

[mick]

Angwin was way off the rails. More than what was reported in the media.
Very bad apple, had to go.

I don't have a problem with your club sacking a thieving drug user it certainly is an effective way to improve the dynamics in the club room. I was merely pointing out that having such "bad apples" in the club is not necessarily a reflection on a clubs culture or morals. Parrot had made numerous attempts to demean a clubs culture due to isolated instances:-those same examples have occured at Carlton. How a club deals with those problems is more of a reflection on the clubs attitude to its treatment of players.

One of the most embarrassing things I've seen typed on BF.
Did your club foresake honour and decency when it traded Rawlings to the Roos for two top picks, knowing he had MAJOR mental health issue?

I don't think Hawthorn had an obligation to give Footscray a fair deal any more than I think Carlton have to be fair toward WC in their deal with Judd. The honour and decency relates more to a clubs treatment of its own players, staff and supporters. If that is the most embarrassing thing you have read on BigFooty then your Ignore list must be enormous.


Right. So its O.K. for your club to make a call on the future value of a player to the side, and let him go.......but if we do it it's without "honour and decency"................you are a hypocrit.

It was done without honour and decency because of the leaking of Lance's medical condition. What don't you understand? Carlton are entitled to delist Whitnall, it is the manner in which they went about it that is in question. Even Kouta thinks it was "Was not done properly at all" and "He deserves more respect". These aren't my words they are the words of a former Carlton player. If you think your club is blameless and acted honorably that is fine by me, but 2 former captains have publicly stated that Carlton have bnot acted properly.

We have had a discussion with Lance to inform him that his opportunities to play senior football with us will be severaly limited next year, and that no club offerred a trade for him.

A little bit of revisionist history there, you didn't tell him his opportunities were limited you told him they were non-existant.

It is all well and Good to tell Lance that he is no longer required as a player, that is Carlton's right.

Do reckon they offered Lance a job with the coaching staff to do him a favour or to improve the footy club? Lance didn't want a coaching job he wants to play, Carlton have made the chances of that happening remote due to there comments regarding his medical condition. If Carlton wanted to do Lance a favour they should have just kept their mouth shut or said he was delisted due to form, TPP pressure or a Youth policy.

Ever thought that maybe his inability to prepare his body for the rigours of AFL had "sabotaged" Lance's career?

That may well be the case, but why did Carlton feel the need to make this public?

I must admit , I don't really understand why if Lance was such a slacker why Carlton would want him on the coaching staff.

Right, and if Kennedy stands firm he stays a Blue and we go to plan B for Judd.
He received poor advice from his manager and allowed his client to be bullied.

Are you sure he was bullied?

Refer to the Certified Bargaining agreement section: 18.5

18.5 No AFL Club shall exchange any Player unless the Player has been given as much notice as possible by the AFL Club of its intention to trade without any duress being applied by the AFL Club, its employees or agents to the player and the Playergenuinely consents to the trade.

If Carlton put any duress on young Kennedy at all, such as releasing his name prior to the trade being completed then they would be in breach of this rule.

Carlton's ethical and statutory breeches on the Kennedy trade are indefensible if they did indeed "Bully" him into changing clubs against his will. Yet somehow you think this is an acceptable way for Carlton to conduct business. Presumably this is only because you have got Judd to the club, do you really believe the ends justifies the means?


We offered him a job with the coachong staff, as A SIGN OF RESPECT,

A noble gesture. Although, It would have been far more advantageous to Lance's desired future prospects that you merely not go spruiking his medical condition around without his consent.

Maybe Carlton did try and do the right thing by giving a coaching job, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they severely hampered any chance he had of fulfilling his dreams at another club, by releasing information they had no right to divulge.

Perhaps I haven't explained myself clearly enough in previous posts: Carlton has every right to trade Kennedy and delist Whitnall, I'd go so far as to say they have an obligation to thier members to do so if it increases the chance of a Carlton premiership. The more pertinant issue is whether Carlton committed those list changes in an ethical manner that treated their players with the deserved respect .

[Bluebear]

I don't have a problem with your club sacking a thieving drug user it certainly is an effective way to improve the dynamics in the club room. I was merely pointing out that having such "bad apples" in the club is not necessarily a reflection on a clubs culture or morals. Parrot had made numerous attempts to demean a clubs culture due to isolated instances:-those same examples have occured at Carlton. How a club deals with those problems is more of a reflection on the clubs attitude to its treatment of players.
Angwin had this problem before he arrived......hence why he left Adelaide.
If there was a problem with our culture it was only that we couldn't turn him around.


It was done without honour and decency because of the leaking of Lance's medical condition. What don't you understand?

Carlton have made the chances of that happening remote due to there comments regarding his medical condition. If Carlton wanted to do Lance a favour they should have just kept their mouth shut or said he was delisted due to form, TPP pressure or a Youth policy.

That may well be the case, but why did Carlton feel the need to make this public?
You seem very sure that it was the Carlton football club that "leaked" his medical record, and not Ricky Nixon.

Why do you suppose they met Lance on the afternoon at the END of trade week?
Coincidence? No. They waited until the very last minute for ANY other club to show even the vaguest sign of interest in a trade before letting Lance know he was finished.


I must admit , I don't really understand why if Lance was such a slacker why Carlton would want him on the coaching staff.
Widely regarded as having "a good footy brain"
Would make a very good forward line coach.


Are you sure he was bullied?

If Carlton put any duress on young Kennedy at all, such as releasing his name prior to the trade being completed then they would be in breach of this rule.

Quite right.
Kennedy's manager should have helped his client stand firm and stay.
I would have been happy with that, even if it cost us Judd.
According to his manager the club told Josh his future lay elsewhere.
Maybe that's not bullying, maybe it is.

At the end of the day Josh was upset and felt betrayed. I can understand that. He is young and it was difficult for him. The pressure to go in the end may well have come from the media and from within:
"Will Josh Kennedy be the player to stop Carlton getting Judd"

All the news fashes were talking about it.....and he probably felt it was impossible for him to stay.

However, after going HOME to WA, meeting WCE, and realising he could pick up his life from 2 years ago - old mates, Sunday roast with Mum, I'm sure he is feeling fine about the world.

BTW did you notice that amidst the tears Josh managed to ask WCE for more money.;)

[mick]

Bluebear wrote: You seem very sure that it was the Carlton football club that "leaked" his medical record, and not Ricky Nixon.

I am fairly convinced that Carlton released the information, the club hasn't denied doing so, in fact the only person who I have heard deny Carltons loose lips is yourself. Maybe you missed this article in the Age or don't listen to Southern cross radio.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/articles/2007/10/13/1191696225414.html



"What we've said is we think that his capacity to play is limited because of his knee," Swann told Southern Cross Radio today.

"Lance is not convinced about that."

Swann said publicly that Lance's knee is buggered, despite the fact that Lance doesn't agree with the medical opinion.

Carlton has every right to believe their doctors opinion over Lance's but they don't have the right to publicly share that information. Particularly when the patient disagrees with the diagnosis.

If you have an alternative version of events I'd appreciate a link to a credible source, otherwise I'll make the assumption that you are a Carlton fundamentalist who is incapable of conceding his club has made an error. (Not that there is anything wrong with fundie's, I am sure there are benefits to blind faith.I'm sure that CFC appreciates your unwavering support.)

Bluebear wrote: However, after going HOME to WA, meeting WCE, and realising he could pick up his life from 2 years ago - old mates, Sunday roast with Mum, I'm sure he is feeling fine about the world.

BTW did you notice that amidst the tears Josh managed to ask WCE for more money

Yep, I'm sure Kennedy is far better off now. In time, most of the players at your club will be better off elswhere with Judd taking up an estimated 17% of the salary cap. I hope Gibbs doesn't get a hankering for his Mum's roast, that may well put your philosophies on player welfare to the test. How much faith is Gibbs going to have in Carlton claims that he is "important to their future" after seeing how Kennedy was treated like a organised wedding bride.

Never mind, It doesn't really matter how your administrations treats its players because you have JUDD.

[Bluebear]

Bluebear wrote:

I am fairly convinced that Carlton released the information, the club hasn't denied doing so, in fact the only person who I have heard deny Carltons loose lips is yourself. Maybe you missed this article in the Age or don't listen to Southern cross radio.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/articles/2007/10/13/1191696225414.html



"What we've said is we think that his capacity to play is limited because of his knee," Swann told Southern Cross Radio today.
Well gee I'm shocked.
What a concise "leaking" of Lance's medical records.:rolleyes:
What other direct quotes do you have?
This one is pathetic.


"Lance is not convinced about that."

Swann said publicly that Lance's knee is buggered, despite the fact that Lance doesn't agree with the medical opinion.

Carlton has every right to believe their doctors opinion over Lance's but they don't have the right to publicly share that information. Particularly when the patient disagrees with the diagnosis.
Syill waiting for the evidence WE did that.

BTW did you hear Ricky Nixon also disclose that Nick Riewoldts knee has been bone on bone for a number of years............are you sure CFC is the one strating these "leaks"?
Knee problems, which Whitnall's agent Ricky Nixon described as a "bone-on-bone" issue, restricted him to just 15 games this year.

But Nixon did not think his client's knee condition was career-ending.

"Everyone's known that Lance has had bone-on-bone for probably four of five years," Nixon told Southern Cross Radio today.

"But a lot of players play with it. (St Kilda's) Nick Riewoldt has had bone-on-bone since year one in the


Are you sure you know who said what?
Give me a direct quote rather than Journo's joining the dots.......and HIS OWN MANAGER saying things like "bone on bone".
Thanks for playing.

Yep, I'm sure Kennedy is far better off now. In time, most of the players at your club will be better off elswhere with Judd taking up an estimated 17% of the salary cap. I hope Gibbs doesn't get a hankering for his Mum's roast, that may well put your philosophies on player welfare to the test. How much faith is Gibbs going to have in Carlton claims that he is "important to their future" after seeing how Kennedy was treated like a organised wedding bride.

Never mind, It doesn't really matter how your administrations treats its players because you have JUDD.
Aparently Gibbs couldn't sleep.......not over his concern for a guy he met 8 months earlier.......but due to excitement over playing with Judd.

Gibbs will be sadder that Kouta retired than JK has left.

I hope Josh wasn't hanging out with Ben Cousins today.:o
Cousins in custody as we speak.......another "isolated" incident.
great club, great culture, truly inspirational leader.:rolleyes:

[borissey]

I think this thread is a pretty poor attempt at a club's character assassination, and although you seem a pretty smart guy, I think your arguments are pretty weak.

I've never heard of anyone listening to a player who disagree's with their Doctor's diagnosis :eek: Doctors are doctors and are the ones who know things. If Lance didn't agree with the diagnosis then he had no right to turn up mid-season 6-8 kilos overweight, did he? If the knee was fine, why did he disgrace the jumper yet again?

It is only the naive of the world who don't believe that Lance was not aware of the issues his weight problem was having on the team. Yet Big Red thought he could just get through the situation again with his great football brain. For the first time, Carlton said no, and ost likely his career is over.

Sad, very sad, but only one person to blame.

To suggest that this undermines the Club's character is a very long bow.


And to not see a problem with Hawthorn offloading their players to the detriment of others shows where your chracter lies.

[Bluebear]

Hello.......[*echo* hello.......hello]

Where are all the WCE fans ......[*echo*......fans.........fans......]


So busy on our board for so much time this week, seems they have more interesting things to talk about now.:o

[mick]

I think this thread is a pretty poor attempt at a club's character assassination, and although you seem a pretty smart guy, I think your arguments are pretty weak.



It would be a pretty futile exercise to attempt to assassinate the character of a club on their own board, I was merely addressing Parrot's claim that another club was soul-less. I thought it was poor timing to slag off another teams moral character after Carlton was pretty brutal to Kennedy and Whitnall during trade week.

I don't expect to change the mind of any passionate Carlton fundamentalists, but maybe the likes of Parrot will think twice before they denigrate the morals of another club when when Carltons recent debatable shortcomings are pointed out.

I've never heard of anyone listening to a player who disagree's with their Doctor's diagnosis Doctors are doctors and are the ones who know things.

I'll give you a couple of examples then.

On his initial examination for his groin problems, Judd and Carlton were told that he would be back running in 4 weeks, fortunately for Carlton both the club and Judd both saw through this ridiculously optomistic prognosis and got a second opinion. Some Doctors get it quite wrong, and most doctors err on the side of caution. Remember their creed :-First, do no harm.

As for the seriousness of Whitnalls injury, Andrew Mcleod has had bone on bone in his knees for 6 years, he doesn't have to carry the weight of Big Red but his extra mobility does place extra strain on the joints. While Nathan Thompson doesn't have bone on bone he has had PCL damage which severely limits his ability to ruck, I don't think the Roos supporters care as long as he can play footy like he did in 06. Lance's claims that he can play to an AFL standard despite his medical condition aren't a complete fantasy.

It is only the naive of the world who don't believe that Lance was not aware of the issues his weight problem was having on the team.

Then Carlton should have said they sacked Lance because he was fat and uncommitted. For the umpteenth time, Carlton have every right to delist Whitnall-for any reason they want, but they should not have publicly mentioned his medical prognosis (or diagnosis)without his consent.

As for Blue Bears claim that Nixon mentioned Whitnall's knee, of course he did, he had to argue that the doctors prognosis was wrong even if the diagnosis was correct. The reason he had to discuss the issue is because Greg Swann spilled his guts on radio.

I'll leave your board in peace before I am accused of trolling, if you are happy with the way your club has treated it's recent departures then that is all that matters. After all, you have Judd.

[Dramoth]

Hello.......[*echo* hello.......hello]

Where are all the WCE fans ......[*echo*......fans.........fans......]


So busy on our board for so much time this week, seems they have more interesting things to talk about now.:o

Probably something to do with their cousins problem...

And Kerr (apparently) and the chick problem in Perth...

Could be rather detrimental to their well being to come onto other boards right now...

[Bluebear]

Probably something to do with their cousins problem...

And Kerr (apparently) and the chick problem in Perth...

Could be rather detrimental to their well being to come onto other boards right now...
Well Duh.:o

[AlecDuncan]

An old lady rang up SEN this morning claiming to be Josh's grandmother, here in Melbourne. It caught the morning crew off-guard - they'd solicited calls from parents of kids who would not want them to go to the Eagles in their current state - but they got the real thing.

She was very unhappy about Josh being sent west by Carlton, noting that his mother was in Geraldton and his father in Brisbane. She didn't mention the drugs issue. Can't say I blame her for being unhappy about it. They only had her on for about 30 seconds, but I think they'll call her back once they gather their wits.

[Bluebear]

An old lady rang up SEN this morning claiming to be Josh's grandmother, here in Melbourne. It caught the morning crew off-guard - they'd solicited calls from parents of kids who would not want them to go to the Eagles in their current state - but they got the real thing.

She was very unhappy about Josh being sent west by Carlton, noting that his mother was in Geraldton and his father in Brisbane. She didn't mention the drugs issue. Can't say I blame her for being unhappy about it. They only had her on for about 30 seconds, but I think they'll call her back once they gather their wits.
She lives just around the corner from where I work, and funnily enough just up the road from the Kreuzer family.

Haven't spoken to her since JK left, buty I know that he and Bower stayed with her initially when they were drafted.

JK will be missed, and the new coaching staff are setting a ruthless tone in player management.

JK should retire and go into PSD.:thumbsu:

[pumped]

To Mick and BB,

It seems footy clubs in general are not so great at making honest decisions. IMO the ones who do overall seem to get the best results on the footy field. Without buying in to all of the things you guys have been debating I would suggest that Carlton have struggled pretty badly over the last few years with integrity. I believe they have panicked and then manipulated to try and get back on top. I really hope they do get back but feel that they will have to change much of their processes to get long term stability and success. For what it is worth I don't really care what other clubs do so long as Carlton start running things with integrity and playing with integrity.