View Full Version : Three questions about VFL reserves?
Hi guys.
I was hoping one of you may be able to answer my questions.
Collingwood have broken from our VFL affiliate in Williamstown to have our own VFL side in 2008, as Geelong are currently using. I understand that you can use VFL top up players to complement your list.
Question 1 - I assume that you would only have the one VFL side and not actually have a VFL reserves team. Is my assumption correct or do you need to have enough top up players to field two teams?
Question 2 - When playing against a VFL side that is not affiliated with an AFL club are you limited with the number of AFL listed players that can be used such as other VFL affilated sides meaning that you must have extra top up players that are only used on these situations?
Question 3 - (On my assumption for question 1 being correct) How do you deal with excess players? For example, Collingwood currently have 3 ruckmen but I would like us to draft one and rookie list another. This would mean we have 5 ruckmen on our lists. Only 2 would play for the seniors, two in our VFL side but we would have one extra which would not develop if we were forced to use him as a KPP. Is there a deal where a player can be loaned out to another VFL reserves side or another league?
Any help on these questions would be great for clarification! Thanks in advance
Question 1. We do not have a VFL 2nds team.
Question 2. There is no limit on the amount of players that can play as long as the AFL team is playing.
Question 3. And your 5th ruckman who is a rookie either plays for your VFL team or not at all. Top up players can go back to "their" club.
Question 1. We do not have a VFL 2nds team.
Question 2. There is no limit on the amount of players that can play as long as the AFL team is playing.
Question 3. And your 5th ruckman who is a rookie either plays for your VFL team or not at all. Top up players can go back to "their" club.
Thanks.
I know there are many positives through having your own VFL side however I see the restriction on loaning out players as a negative. If we were to pick a fifth ruckman as a rookie then I don't see him developing very well having to be played in the forward line or not at all.
That is a postive though about being exempt from the rule where VFL affiliate sides have a limit of AFL listed players that can play when playing a side without an AFL affiliate.
I understand that you can use VFL top up players to complement your list.
I think we now have a list of 20 VFL top up players to choose from.It massively increased this year after the ridiculous situation in 2006 where we had to get players from anywhere and they were introduced to teammates on game day.
Question 2 - When playing against a VFL side that is not affiliated with an AFL club are you limited with the number of AFL listed players that can be used such as other VFL affilated sides meaning that you must have extra top up players that are only used on these situations?
Stand alone clubs like Geelong [and Collingwood in 2008] can play every senior/Rookie listed player in their VFL side during the home and away season.So if you have no injuries,you could have 22 Collingwood senior/Rookie players in the VFL side.The finals are slightly different.
Question 3 - (On my assumption for question 1 being correct) How do you deal with excess players? For example, Collingwood currently have 3 ruckmen but I would like us to draft one and rookie list another. This would mean we have 5 ruckmen on our lists. Only 2 would play for the seniors, two in our VFL side but we would have one extra which would not develop if we were forced to use him as a KPP. Is there a deal where a player can be loaned out to another VFL reserves side or another league?
VFL listed players that don't get a game simply play for the club they're from.For example Tom Couch played for St Josephs when he wasn't in the VFL side and Scott Thompson played for South Barwon.
VFL listed players that don't get a game simply play for the club they're from.For example Tom Couch played for St Josephs when he wasn't in the VFL side and Scott Thompson played for South Barwon.
Thanks JUBJUB
On the last part of your answer however, does this only relate to VFL top up players or actual listed players being either senior listed or rookie? If we had 5 ruckmen on our list, could we loan one out to a lower grade to develop as the number one ruckman?
At last the 2 teams play the same game plan, the only problem is that when you have a lot of injuries they need to drag "top ups" from all over the state. The VFL also charge us $80 to $90 grand to stand alone. We also get CR at Skilled, if you remember what they are. Watch out Phil Cleary will bag the crap out of you.
At last the 2 teams play the same game plan, the only problem is that when you have a lot of injuries they need to drag "top ups" from all over the state. The VFL also charge us $80 to $90 grand to stand alone. We also get CR at Skilled, if you remember what they are. Watch out Phil Cleary will bag the crap out of you.
CR = curtain raisers??
If thats the case then I do remember what they are but unfortunately we will never be allowed to do that. I used to love getting to the game early to watch the ressies in the old system. You are very lucky at Skilled.
We will be playing our home games at MC Labour Park (Princes Park) which may be a little hard to swallow. Perfect world would be to hold the games at Victoria Park however Yarra Council wants to develop the ground as a community centre, hopefully down the track it could be used for VFL games too.
Phil Cleary will probably bag the hell out of us but hopefully Jarrod Molloy will put him in his place!!!
I thought Molloy was off coaching somewhere.
I thought Molloy was off coaching somewhere.
I'm not too sure actually. I saw him commentating for the VFL finals series but he may have been doing a cameo role after the season ala Lethal.
Jim Boy
15 Oct 2007, 12:32
I know there are many positives through having your own VFL side however I see the restriction on loaning out players as a negative.
I really don't know that such a rule exists, if it does, it would be enshrined in the CBA. It's highly unlikely that you would want to do that anyway. The aim of the standalone VFL team isn't to win VFL matches (which is untrue for an affiliate like Williamstown), the aim is to have complete control over your list development. If the VFL loses because of that aim, it really doesn't matter.
Their is a bit of an advantage in having your own team in that while no such rule exists, your vfl players do tend be yours to recruit from. AA Mathew Egan was a top-up player who we recruited with a final pick a few years back - we just assumed no-one else would pick him. Same with Jason Davenport (rookie listed) last year and hopefully Scott Thompson this year.
catattack
15 Oct 2007, 12:39
Question 2 - When playing against a VFL side that is not affiliated with an AFL club are you limited with the number of AFL listed players that can be used such as other VFL affilated sides meaning that you must have extra top up players that are only used on these situations?JUBJUB is spot on about the players we can field. The anomaly is that an AFL-aligned club, eg Coburg, is only allowed to play a max of 12 AFL-listed players when they play a stand-alone VFL club. This is because they can palm off their excess AFL players to their VFL reserve team. I can only assume that because Geelong does not have a VFL reserves team, we are not bound by such regulations.
In the finals, it is a very ambiguous set of rules. For AFL stand alone, while the side's respective AFL team is still playing, there is no restriction on the number of AFL players who can play. However, only players who have played at least one VFL match in the season are permitted to play. Once the side's respective AFL side is knocked out of the AFL finals race, then the VFL side is permitted to only play players who satisfy the qualification criteria (at least seven VFL matches and no more than 12 AFL matches for the season). They are also then obligated to field a team with no more than 12 AFL players and at least 10 VFL players. Except, for AFL stand alone clubs, players external from the primary list (i.e. rookie listed players) count as VFL-listed players, so long as they have satisfied the number of games to qualify. (For AFL-aligned clubs, they count as AFL-listed players)
Question 3 - (On my assumption for question 1 being correct) How do you deal with excess players? For example, Collingwood currently have 3 ruckmen but I would like us to draft one and rookie list another. This would mean we have 5 ruckmen on our lists. Only 2 would play for the seniors, two in our VFL side but we would have one extra which would not develop if we were forced to use him as a KPP. Is there a deal where a player can be loaned out to another VFL reserves side or another league? What arises with the VFL side, and it happened at Geelong a lot this year, is you will get a surplus of a lot of players that isn't neccesserally condusive to a balanced team. Geelong's forward line, for example, in last year's grand final comprised Kingsley, McCarthy, Gardiner, Playfair, N. Ablett.. while Spencer, West, Blake, S Hunt, etc also played. You will find that over the course of the year there will be times when you are top-heavy in some areas and too light on in others, but that is just the balancing act you will need to endure. It's all part of the VFL experience for stand alone AFL clubs.
catattack
15 Oct 2007, 12:41
The aim of the standalone VFL team isn't to win VFL matches (which is untrue for an affiliate like Williamstown), the aim is to have complete control over your list development. If the VFL loses because of that aim, it really doesn't matter.While you are right in saying the primary focus is on total control over the list's development, it does matter a great deal if the side does not win. Leigh Tudor said on the GFC site just before the finals that a lot more energy goes into attempting to win the game than a lot of people would realise.
Thanks for all your advice! I'm looking forward to having our own VFL side next year. I think your pioineering with this has been very successful and I'm happy that we followed your lead. I would suggest that a number of clubs will go down this path in the future.
catattack
15 Oct 2007, 13:21
It has emerged as the more desirable blueprint for player development - just look at Geelong's depth compared with sides that don't invest anywhere near what Geelong does.
The only stumbling block is the costs of operation. Remember, it's not just the exorbitant licence fee (which is significantly higher than stand-alone clubs), but it's also the operational costs, such as player payments, staff payments, medical equipment, transportation, etc.
It has emerged as the more desirable blueprint for player development - just look at Geelong's depth compared with sides that don't invest anywhere near what Geelong does.
The only stumbling block is the costs of operation. Remember, it's not just the exorbitant licence fee (which is significantly higher than stand-alone clubs), but it's also the operational costs, such as player payments, staff payments, medical equipment, transportation, etc.
Some of the bigger clubs with better finances such as the big 4 Vic teams would cover these costs quite easily. For the poorer such as North this would be probably impossible. For the remainder or the middle ranged clubs then the decision would be quite difficult. See St Kilda's entire board being overturned due to underfunding the football department. I am not privy to Geelongs finances however with the costs of developing Skilled and so forth I think it is great that you spare no expense in player development.
Rosella
15 Oct 2007, 13:48
Some of the bigger clubs with better finances such as the big 4 Vic teams would cover these costs quite easily. For the poorer such as North this would be probably impossible. For the remainder or the middle ranged clubs then the decision would be quite difficult. See St Kilda's entire board being overturned due to underfunding the football department. I am not privy to Geelongs finances however with the costs of developing Skilled and so forth I think it is great that you spare no expense in player development.
We could afford to send a player to Germany for treatment so we are ok financially. Certainly some clubs will not be able to afford a stand alone team. Geelong did it even when finances weren't great because I don't think there was a suitable option anyway.
Carlton have considered it and I'm sure Essendon could afford it but for reasons of their own have stuck with the alliances. Bulldogs, Kangaroos, Melbourne and perhaps Saints would struggle to afford it.
Unwritten_Law
15 Oct 2007, 18:03
I'm looking forward to having our own VFL side next year. I think your pioineering with this has been very successful and I'm happy that we followed your lead.
I don't think there was a lot of pioneering on our behalf. We were just the only bloke left single at closing time :p I think we were considering a partnership with Bendigo but the Bombers jumped in first and we ended up on our lonesome. Works well though. Small issue with team balance - at one stage we were selecting a dozen 190cm+ players each week in the twos - but we have a better balance across the list now with the latest changes.
catattack
15 Oct 2007, 18:28
I don't think there was a lot of pioneering on our behalf. We were just the only bloke left single at closing time :p I think we were considering a partnership with Bendigo but the Bombers jumped in first and we ended up on our lonesome. Works well though. Small issue with team balance - at one stage we were selecting a dozen 190cm+ players each week in the twos - but we have a better balance across the list now with the latest changes.I think in 2000, all but three clubs forged their own VFL stand-alone entity.. but by 2002 all but two were still around (us and Carlton i think).
I think it was mooted in about 2003 that we could potentially sign up with North Ballarat, given they were a stand-alone team just up the road. There was also talk there may be a Geelong District side, which would be a club in its own right with a VFL reserves team, but this was very much speculation. I think it was suggested in jest as a more desirable possibility than playing out of North Ballarat.
thegerman
15 Oct 2007, 18:34
Thanks for all your advice! I'm looking forward to having our own VFL side next year. I think your pioineering with this has been very successful and I'm happy that we followed your lead. I would suggest that a number of clubs will go down this path in the future.
And only then would we would have done the full circle.