View Full Version : Expansion How on Earth...
Is any team supposed to operate as an AFL club on the Gold Coast & make enough money to survive? Considering; that it is Union & (by virtue of a new NRL team) growing as a League heartland, the Lions required massive support from the AFL even post merger & there will be a significant drop off in support by any team that moves there, there seems to be some massive hurdles to overcome.
This is a genuine question, as everyone talks about there being too many Victorian teams, yet there doesn't seem to be any compelling argument to relocate a team to an area that will most likely require 10s of millions of AFL dollars to survive - even in the medium term, and that is ignoring any redevelopment costs of a new AFL standard facility.
Has anyone drafted (or is there) an argument that at least provides some evidence that a Gold Coast team is even close to financially viable?
Is any team supposed to operate as an AFL club on the Gold Coast & make enough money to survive? Considering; that it is Union & (by virtue of a new NRL team) growing as a League heartland, the Lions required massive support from the AFL even post merger & there will be a significant drop off in support by any team that moves there, there seems to be some massive hurdles to overcome.
This is a genuine question, as everyone talks about there being too many Victorian teams, yet there doesn't seem to be any compelling argument to relocate a team to an area that will most likely require 10s of millions of AFL dollars to survive - even in the medium term, and that is ignoring any redevelopment costs of a new AFL standard facility.
Has anyone drafted (or is there) an argument that at least provides some evidence that a Gold Coast team is even close to financially viable?
They wont be straight away but the AFL will give them lots of money in the short term and eventually they will be like geelong, members and attendance wont be very high but will still manage to make profits.
Well thats what the AFL hopes happens...
Is any team supposed to operate as an AFL club on the Gold Coast & make enough money to survive? Considering; that it is Union & (by virtue of a new NRL team) growing as a League heartland, the Lions required massive support from the AFL even post merger & there will be a significant drop off in support by any team that moves there, there seems to be some massive hurdles to overcome.
This is a genuine question, as everyone talks about there being too many Victorian teams, yet there doesn't seem to be any compelling argument to relocate a team to an area that will most likely require 10s of millions of AFL dollars to survive - even in the medium term, and that is ignoring any redevelopment costs of a new AFL standard facility.
Has anyone drafted (or is there) an argument that at least provides some evidence that a Gold Coast team is even close to financially viable?
AFL hand outs! The idea is to promote and expand!
SweetLeftFoot
30 Oct 2007, 20:21
The logic is perverse.
We are rold because we get 'handouts' (we don't, the CBF is not a handout, but compensation for the uneven fixturing) we must move to a place where - we will need 10x as many real handouts.
HongKongRoo
31 Oct 2007, 02:09
Is any team supposed to operate as an AFL club on the Gold Coast & make enough money to survive? Considering; that it is Union & (by virtue of a new NRL team) growing as a League heartland, the Lions required massive support from the AFL even post merger & there will be a significant drop off in support by any team that moves there, there seems to be some massive hurdles to overcome.
This is a genuine question, as everyone talks about there being too many Victorian teams, yet there doesn't seem to be any compelling argument to relocate a team to an area that will most likely require 10s of millions of AFL dollars to survive - even in the medium term, and that is ignoring any redevelopment costs of a new AFL standard facility.
Has anyone drafted (or is there) an argument that at least provides some evidence that a Gold Coast team is even close to financially viable?
I think you've hit the nail on the head, splitting two teams over around 2mil non afl keen people in SE QLD versus say the population of Sydney 4mil, with a similar mindset seems to be a much better option.
paul scholes
31 Oct 2007, 05:23
The logic is perverse.
We are rold because we get 'handouts' (we don't, the CBF is not a handout, but compensation for the uneven fixturing) we must move to a place where - we will need 10x as many real handouts.
How F***** are the AFL,one hand there telling us ''It's not a handout'' then they're pulling the rug out. The proverbial gun is to the head:thumbsd:
relapse
31 Oct 2007, 07:52
The logic is perverse.
We are rold because we get 'handouts' (we don't, the CBF is not a handout, but compensation for the uneven fixturing) we must move to a place where - we will need 10x as many real handouts.
Because in 10-20 years time you will have a far more established and financially successful club than by remaining in Melbourne.
The melbourne market is bare, what North have now they will be stuck with and have to make it work with. Whereas when a side is established or relocated to the Gold Coast they will have a far larger demographic to work with and there is far greater potential for larger off field income than in Melb.
Its not about next season its about long term future and expansion of the game. This is what I am looking to see how things pan out because I am hearing is "if we stay in melbourne we will be fine", North are in their current predicament for a reason and I dont see that changing, they arent a carlton that have a massive supporter base that will come flooding back. There seems to be no long term plan rather just blind hope that things will be okay whereas all the reports etc seem to suggest otherwise.
Father Jack
31 Oct 2007, 08:48
Money thrown at the Kangaroos in Melbourne is pointless, whereas money thrown at the Kangaroos is to develop the AFL in that market. There isn't a lot of point in propping up Melbourne clubs when they are chronically over-represented in the competition anyway.
How is that a difficult concept to understand?
Funkalicous
31 Oct 2007, 09:12
A few years back when the Lions were king, Brisbane were only the 3rd team to have sold out on memberships. - They had a waiting list which was an awesome effort. Usually when that happens you know you can add another team to that region...
Subprime
31 Oct 2007, 09:45
Is any team supposed to operate as an AFL club on the Gold Coast & make enough money to survive? Considering; that it is Union & (by virtue of a new NRL team) growing as a League heartland, the Lions required massive support from the AFL even post merger & there will be a significant drop off in support by any team that moves there, there seems to be some massive hurdles to overcome.
This is a genuine question, as everyone talks about there being too many Victorian teams, yet there doesn't seem to be any compelling argument to relocate a team to an area that will most likely require 10s of millions of AFL dollars to survive - even in the medium term, and that is ignoring any redevelopment costs of a new AFL standard facility.
Has anyone drafted (or is there) an argument that at least provides some evidence that a Gold Coast team is even close to financially viable?
I'm not sure that the financial viability of an individual club is the point here. If it were the Kangaroos would be better off in Perth. The league gets the major part of its income from TV rights and like it or not an expansion into SEQ on a weekly basis will provide the AFL with more coverage for the networks.
The AFL would not have got $780 million in TV rights over 5 years without Brisbane and Sydney, the same can't be said for North Melbourne.
As others have said before, the money spent in Queensland is an investment in a growth area for the game, as opposed to putting the money into suburban Melbourne which is already serviced by a number of other clubs.
Australian Rules Football needs to grow to survive.
ManWithNoName
31 Oct 2007, 10:39
A few years back when the Lions were king, Brisbane were only the 3rd team to have sold out on memberships. - They had a waiting list which was an awesome effort. Usually when that happens you know you can add another team to that region...
And how're memberships going now they're struggling?
NorthBhoy
31 Oct 2007, 10:44
And how're memberships going now they're struggling?
Worst in the comp.
Australian Rules Football needs to grow to survive.
I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong here, but has the AFL not grown enormously as a sport since the last structural change? Even with North Melbourne in the league?
Why can't it continue to grow on that basis? If I hear correctly the AFL has a $82m slush fund (built partly on the back of the NMFC) to force their way into new regions. Surely that means the sport is thriving as it is.
And how're memberships going now they're struggling?
I was staggered that anyone would use Brisbane memberships as a reason why Queensland needs a second team. To most people, the Brisbane membership numbers as one of the biggest reasons to suggest that they should be left alone to develop their market.
Still I suspect a few on this board are using any argument they can think of to justify their reasons for wanting North to move, they don't really care if there is any logic behind the argument.
Subprime
31 Oct 2007, 11:43
I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong here, but has the AFL not grown enormously as a sport since the last structural change? Even with North Melbourne in the league?
Why can't it continue to grow on that basis? If I hear correctly the AFL has a $82m slush fund (built partly on the back of the NMFC) to force their way into new regions. Surely that means the sport is thriving as it is.
I'm not saying NM does much to detract from growth, it just doesn't add to it.
The AFL wants a second team out of SEQ for reasons stated before on this and other threads. If North doesn't want to go that's ok with me but funds currently going to NM, WB and Melbourne to prop them up need to be reserved to fund growth and ensure the new GC team does not fail. If NM, WB or Melbourne can't sustain it's place in the AFL then join the VFL.
I barrack for Collingwood but I also support Glenelg so I've already been thru relegation.
Australian Rules Football needs to grow to survive.
Didn't know that Australian Rules Football was dying????
I'm not saying NM does much to detract from growth, it just doesn't add to it.
I'd debate that, but I do understand the point you are trying to make.
The AFL wants a second team out of SEQ for reasons stated before on this and other threads. If North doesn't want to go that's ok with me but funds currently going to NM, WB and Melbourne to prop them up need to be reserved to fund growth and ensure the new GC team does not fail. If NM, WB or Melbourne can't sustain it's place in the AFL then join the VFL.
Why do people just accept that because the AFL want a team in the Gold Coast that it is a good thing. Surely we should be looking to make that decision for ourselves rather than accept the word of an organisation that has consistently proven to be untrustworthy.
One of my biggest criticisms of the press at the moment, is that no-one has even questioned why a move to the Gold Coast is such a good idea. They've just taken the AFL's word for it. If everything is so clear cut it shouldn't be so hard to prove evidence, so why aren't we hearing it?
Subprime
31 Oct 2007, 13:23
Didn't know that Australian Rules Football was dying????
Its not dying, just living in an increasingly competitive sporting world.
Subprime
31 Oct 2007, 13:33
I'd debate that, but I do understand the point you are trying to make.
Why do people just accept that because the AFL want a team in the Gold Coast that it is a good thing. Surely we should be looking to make that decision for ourselves rather than accept the word of an organisation that has consistently proven to be untrustworthy.
One of my biggest criticisms of the press at the moment, is that no-one has even questioned why a move to the Gold Coast is such a good idea. They've just taken the AFL's word for it. If everything is so clear cut it shouldn't be so hard to prove evidence, so why aren't we hearing it?
Its a risk, no doubt about it. West Sydney will be a risk too. But Sydney and Brisbane were both risks that paid off.
It was a risk relegating the SANFL and WAFL to second tier competitions but that paid off too. I wouldn't go back.
One of the things that may be driving the AFL is the number of kids from Queensland being drafted recently or at this years draft camp. Giving those kids a career path in their own backyard is a selling point to get youth to play the game. It will also help the grassroots efforts that produced the current crop.
Its not dying, just living in an increasingly competitive sporting world.
Would you disagree that the AFL have actually been moving forward, financially, and in terms of general interest in this increasingly competitive sporting world?
If not, whats the problem?
Subprime
31 Oct 2007, 13:48
Would you disagree that the AFL have actually been moving forward, financially, and in terms of general interest in this increasingly competitive sporting world?
If not, whats the problem?
It has but I'm not sure how much of that is down to North Melbourne.
The SANFL and WAFL crowds of years gone by now show up in AFL figures.
Sydney and Brisbane have given the game a "national" standing that none of the other codes really have. And its growing all the time.
I believe real steps are being taken in Qld and the draftee's are evidence of that. Sydney is still full of hard cases. However I would never have imagined 60,000 crowds at the Olympic Stadium and yet that happened 3 times last year.
If North want to stay in Melbourne fine but not at the expense of the games future growth markets.
So you first say that the AFL needs to grow to survive.
And you are now conceding that it's not a matter of survival, you think that the AFL will make much more money in a growth market like the Gold Coast.
So give me some evidence that the Gold Coast will be good for the game.
I have real doubts that it will be.
- Relatively small population growing at a lesser rate than metropolitan Melbourne
- No infrastructure, upgrading the stadium to get a capacity even close to NMFC's current average attendance will cost tens (maybe hundreds) of millions.
- No interest in the sport. Fact, as evidenced by the turnout at the local grand final (and local games), and the low turnout at games that have been played up there so far.
- History of failed professional sporting teams. Do I need to name them? The place is a graveyard for sporting teams.
Expansion for expansions sake is silly. And I can't see this helping the NMFC, the AFL or the rest of the clubs in the league. Do you have any evidence that suggests that I'm wrong?
Subprime
31 Oct 2007, 14:21
So you first say that the AFL needs to grow to survive.
And you are now conceding that it's not a matter of survival, you think that the AFL will make much more money in a growth market like the Gold Coast.
So give me some evidence that the Gold Coast will be good for the game.
I have real doubts that it will be.
- Relatively small population growing at a lesser rate than metropolitan Melbourne
- No infrastructure, upgrading the stadium to get a capacity even close to NMFC's current average attendance will cost tens (maybe hundreds) of millions.
- No interest in the sport. Fact, as evidenced by the turnout at the local grand final (and local games), and the low turnout at games that have been played up there so far.
- History of failed professional sporting teams. Do I need to name them? The place is a graveyard for sporting teams.
Expansion for expansions sake is silly. And I can't see this helping the NMFC, the AFL or the rest of the clubs in the league. Do you have any evidence that suggests that I'm wrong?
I think your misrepresenting what I said. The AFL does need to grow to survive but that does not mean its about to die.
- I heard the other day that Queensland will be the 2nd largest state population-wise in the near future. The Gold Coast is its fastest growing region and will overtake Adelaide some day.
- Carrara is not ideal but funds have been set aside to fund expansion and one day the new ground may be a jewel in the AFL crown. Whether its the Kangaroos or Southport, there will need to be a revamped stadium eventually.
- No interest in the sport? How come its producing so many elite players. Brisbane and Sydney had "no interest" prior to expansion. Should we have stayed with state leagues? I don't see how QAFL attendances are relevant.
- Given the history of the Brisbane Bears at Carrara, all the more reason for the AFL to be very prudent in reserving extra funds to ensure that this time the move succeeds.
The expansion is being proposed to grow the game and fully take up the SEQ market with 22 games a season. Perhaps you could acknowledge how the success of Brisbane and Sydney has helped increase TV revenue.
If the recent report into NMFC's future viability (or lack of it) in Melbourne does not convince you, I doubt that I can.
Worst in the comp.
And yet our average home attendances are higher than Norths :confused:
Brilliant
1 Nov 2007, 00:24
"If you build it, they will come"
It's that simple. It wont be an instant success, but the AFL are thinking about the next 100 years, not now or the last 100 years.
Tradition does'nt pay the bills or expand the game.
SweetLeftFoot
1 Nov 2007, 00:35
"If you build it, they will come"
It's that simple. It wont be an instant success, but the AFL are thinking about the next 100 years, not now or the last 100 years.
Tradition does'nt pay the bills or expand the game.
If they build it is crap.
If there is DEMAND for football on the GC, then the AFL should meet the demand.
Dumping yet more millions there to try and goad them into liking it, in the face of all evidence, is moronic.
If they build it is crap.
If there is DEMAND for football on the GC, then the AFL should meet the demand.
Dumping yet more millions there to try and goad them into liking it, in the face of all evidence, is moronic.
Welcome to the capitalist world, do you live in a world where you are not bombarded with commericals and avertising to get you interested in products ???
Its the way the world works, everything has to start off being pushed and advertised to people before it takes off thats why companies spend billions on advertising each year on their products.
Dumping yet more millions there to try and goad them into liking it, in the face of all evidence, is moronic.
WOW!! Do you really believe that?