Two new recruits wont get a game in '08?

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Interesting quote:

"Birdy has got an AFL body and has been in our system for 12 months now," Roos said.

"Veszpremi's playing weight is around 83 kilos so physically he's a bit more mature and Meredith is not a skinny kid but in terms of his body not as developed as the other two.

"But generally I wouldn't have thought those two would play senior footy next year."

[magic.merkin]

no surpirses there.

[FM0226]

Same. But time is running out for the class of '05. Failure to break into the first team this year could well mean it's the end of their AFL careers.

[Bloods boy from the Bush]

I would have thought Vez might have been ready to get some senior games next season but as we all know are very reluctant to blood young players early on. I do agree its time to see what Brabazon, Thorton and Laidlaw can do if they dont get regular games this season it has to said it could be all over for them.

[bloods01]

no surpirses there.

Agreed. It's seems mandatory that first year players serve a year in the reserves before they get a game.

[EatBig Australia]

Agreed. It's seems mandatory that first year players serve a year in the reserves before they get a game.

It does seem that way which is unfortunate. Hopefully Vez dominates the practice matches, gets a crack pre-season and never looks back. Probably wishful thinking though.

[is2SWaNz]

Hmmm... I read that on the paper as well. It didn't surprise me either and its sort of makes you think, when are the older players going to retire? Although you wouldn't want that, but i can't help myself to think that.

[rancidpants13]

Hmmm... I read that on the paper as well. It didn't surprise me either and its sort of makes you think, when are the older players going to retire? Although you wouldn't want that, but i can't help myself to think that.

if we don't get a decent turnover ... out with SOME of the old, in with SOME of the new ... we will end up in a similar position to the likes of essendon (another year or so around bottom four) and adelaide (sliding out of the 8)... ageing teams with seemingly no immediate plan for regeneration
and yes, some of the players who've been with us since 04-05 have to step up in 08 or find themselves moving on

and whatever statements are made now, i retain some hope that the likes of veszpremi and bird, and the 06 draftees, get into the seniors sooner rather than later

[mj23]

one way they could do it is a rotation system. Have Dan Okeefe and Pat Ves 3 games on 3 off. Bird should be right to play most of them by the sounds Meredith is a bit like Okeefe was last year not quite ready. I just want to see us blood the youngsters.

[is2SWaNz]

one way they could do it is a rotation system. Have Dan Okeefe and Pat Ves 3 games on 3 off. Bird should be right to play most of them by the sounds Meredith is a bit like Okeefe was last year not quite ready. I just want to see us blood the youngsters.

Don't we all? *sigh*

"Look, you're never really sure," he said. "If the kids are good enough, we'll obviously play them. It's as simple as that. - Paul Roos

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/precocious-picks-could-alter-policy/2007/11/23/1195753308487.html

[liz]

From the sounds of it, Veszpremi's endurance might stand between him and an early senior game. Many of the write-ups mentioned his endurance is not currently up to AFL standard (but also said that shouldn't be an issue once he gets into the system) and an injury interrupted year in 2007 probably won't have helped him.

Sydney's game style requires 22 players required to run hard in both directions given that it relies on as many players as possible getting to as many contests as possible. It is probably as much of the reason as any other why the youngsters tend not to get a game in their early seasons, even if they appear to be strong enough to hold their own.

It is almost certainly what has prevented Laidlaw getting more games and why it took Schmidt so long to break into the senior team. It has quite possibly held Moore back somewhat, and explains why McVeigh keeps getting games even when he doesn't do a whole heap at the contests he runs to.

O'Keefe is going to need a big, injury free pre-season if he is going to feature prominantly next year. He had practically no pre-season last year and looked sore for most of the games he played. His intensity was certainly never that great. Hopefully his early end to last year will have given him the time to get over whatever was ailing him (reported to be groin soreness and that wouldn't surprise me based on watching him run and kick) and will allow him to work really hard between now and March.

[bedford]

it's amazing that everybody thinks the same way,new players just dont get a first year game in sydney.
we must start playing the kids or it will be too late.
what we are doing now is what eade did,not putting new blood in.
its like the coaching panel,time for fresh faces,not the main man but the support staff.
the most respected captain in the last few years is maxfield,get him supporting roos now as he might be a future coach

[rancidpants13]

it's amazing that everybody thinks the same way,new players just dont get a first year game in sydney.
we must start playing the kids or it will be too late.
what we are doing now is what eade did,not putting new blood in.
its like the coaching panel,time for fresh faces,not the main man but the support staff.
the most respected captain in the last few years is maxfield,get him supporting roos now as he might be a future coach

yes, the similarities to what eade did in his last season or so are worrying, and it's quite simply a matter of what roos said the other day: if they're good enough to play first year, they will.....but he has to actually do it

there seems to be a definite, growing feeling among swans fans here that we want to see the young players get a run, and we're quite prepared to endure the possible fluctuating results that might come as new players take their turn ... let's ge some excitement in our ranks

[Bloods boy from the Bush]

Personally I believe all three our new draftees are up to playing some senior footy next season and perhaps that why we drafted mids instead of talls. I doubt we will see any of them in the early rounds but hopefully each has a chance to debut and possibly do enough to hold a spot. Although I'd like to see Brabazon, Thornton, D.O'Keefe & Laidlaw get given a go first.

[donsman4eva]

Has much been said about Pat in Sydney? We havent heard much about him down here.

PS, sorry about my sig, nothing against Sydnet, just a personal thing against Pat

[RUNVS]

Has much been said about Pat in Sydney? We havent heard much about him down here.

PS, sorry about my sig, nothing against Sydnet, just a personal thing against Pat

Why dont you like Veszpremi?

[robbieando]

yes, the similarities to what eade did in his last season or so are worrying

I don't see Lockett planning another comeback;)

Plus, Roos is more willing to play younger kids than Eade ever was. Just because he hold them back for a season doesn't mean a thing. He did it in 2003 and he will still do it in 2008. The only way they'll get a game is either they prove themselves ready (like Moore, Grundy and Philips did) or we get hit badly by injuries (which has never happened to the point where a first year kid has got a game)

To be honest I really don't get the fuss about Roos not playing the kids in their first year, they rarely have anyway and if anything if any of the kids drafted this year did play next season they would only block the path for the likes of Laidlaw, Thornton, Brabarzon, O'Keefe, Jack and Moore getting game time to show us if they can play at the senior level or worth to stay on the senior list.

To suggest it hinders progess, well just look at Malceski for an example of what waiting can do and what the likely outcome will be for Schmidt and Barlow when they are given more gametime next season like Malceski was in 06 after being eased into football in 05.

Plus maybe as Liz pointed out the midfield players fitness levels have alot to do with being held back for a season. At the moment they are only 17 or 18 years of age and can only play for a certain period of time at the senior level if they play. So give them time to build up fitness (in particular for the type of football we play) and they will be far better suited to debut in season 2 at the club than they would in season 1.

Yes, our 3 draft picks most likely won't play in 08, but we still have a fair few other picks from other drafts ready to go in 08 who we still need to find out if they are good enough and Roos has been on the money so far with the ones that have made it to the senior level and stayed there.

there seems to be a definite, growing feeling among swans fans here that we want to see the young players get a run, and we're quite prepared to endure the possible fluctuating results that might come as new players take their turn ... let's ge some excitement in our ranks

There is one thing to get some excitement in the ranks, its another to throw kids to the wolves to early.....

We have some good prospects ready to go if called upon and therefore if the 3 selected at the draft this year are held back as per usual to build up their match fitness, so be it. Won't impact of their quailty when they get to the senior side, their brains will decide that.

[bloods01]

it's amazing that everybody thinks the same way,new players just dont get a first year game in sydney.
we must start playing the kids or it will be too late.
what we are doing now is what eade did,not putting new blood in.
its like the coaching panel,time for fresh faces,not the main man but the support staff.
the most respected captain in the last few years is maxfield,get him supporting roos now as he might be a future coach

To quote Roosy in the recent Swans Magazine about 2008, "we needed to refresh the list with the expectation there will be a slightly different team representing us in the upcoming season".

I truely hope he keeps his word. We need to start playing the kids and get some games into them. We need to build our next premiership team and we have to start now.

[rancidpants13]

I don't see Lockett planning another comeback;)

Plus, Roos is more willing to play younger kids than Eade ever was. Just because he hold them back for a season doesn't mean a thing. He did it in 2003 and he will still do it in 2008. The only way they'll get a game is either they prove themselves ready (like Moore, Grundy and Philips did) or we get hit badly by injuries (which has never happened to the point where a first year kid has got a game)

To be honest I really don't get the fuss about Roos not playing the kids in their first year, they rarely have anyway and if anything if any of the kids drafted this year did play next season they would only block the path for the likes of Laidlaw, Thornton, Brabarzon, O'Keefe, Jack and Moore getting game time to show us if they can play at the senior level or worth to stay on the senior list.

To suggest it hinders progess, well just look at Malceski for an example of what waiting can do and what the likely outcome will be for Schmidt and Barlow when they are given more gametime next season like Malceski was in 06 after being eased into football in 05.

Plus maybe as Liz pointed out the midfield players fitness levels have alot to do with being held back for a season. At the moment they are only 17 or 18 years of age and can only play for a certain period of time at the senior level if they play. So give them time to build up fitness (in particular for the type of football we play) and they will be far better suited to debut in season 2 at the club than they would in season 1.

Yes, our 3 draft picks most likely won't play in 08, but we still have a fair few other picks from other drafts ready to go in 08 who we still need to find out if they are good enough and Roos has been on the money so far with the ones that have made it to the senior level and stayed there.



There is one thing to get some excitement in the ranks, its another to throw kids to the wolves to early.....

We have some good prospects ready to go if called upon and therefore if the 3 selected at the draft this year are held back as per usual to build up their match fitness, so be it. Won't impact of their quailty when they get to the senior side, their brains will decide that.

i agree roos is nothing like eade, but he's not mick malthouse either
i see c'wood 06-07 as a fantastic example ... wther by design or necessity, malthouse DID throw quite a few kids "to the wolves" and as a result he has the best young list in the league now taking valuable experience into the new season, with a genuine shot at a flag
i'm not saying we're in ther same boat as the pies were, but before anyone says we don't have the same talent in our kids, i'll quickly say: how would any of us know?
a lot of the players c'wood brought into the senior side this year were lower draft picks or rookies, but they were given a chance and took it'
the biggest difference, i'd suggest, is that those magpie youngsters were cutting their teeth in the VFL, whereas our kids are stuck playing in the ACT league and we're all aware of the gulf between the two competitions

but seriously, being thrown in at the deep end will give these players (and the club and fans) a very quick idea of who'll sink and who might be able to swim

it's not much different to going in with the same old, tired journeymen who we already know WON"T be swimming too far before they start to flounder due to ageing, injury-riddled bodies, slowing response time or fading decision-making abilities

i am not here to condemn paul roos, and as i've said many times, i'm not talking about starting round 1 08 with 10-12 new faces/debutants in our 22, but we have to start somewhere

[rancidpants13]

I don't see Lockett planning another comeback;)

Plus, Roos is more willing to play younger kids than Eade ever was. Just because he hold them back for a season doesn't mean a thing. He did it in 2003 and he will still do it in 2008. The only way they'll get a game is either they prove themselves ready (like Moore, Grundy and Philips did) or we get hit badly by injuries (which has never happened to the point where a first year kid has got a game)

To be honest I really don't get the fuss about Roos not playing the kids in their first year, they rarely have anyway and if anything if any of the kids drafted this year did play next season they would only block the path for the likes of Laidlaw, Thornton, Brabarzon, O'Keefe, Jack and Moore getting game time to show us if they can play at the senior level or worth to stay on the senior list.

To suggest it hinders progess, well just look at Malceski for an example of what waiting can do and what the likely outcome will be for Schmidt and Barlow when they are given more gametime next season like Malceski was in 06 after being eased into football in 05.

Plus maybe as Liz pointed out the midfield players fitness levels have alot to do with being held back for a season. At the moment they are only 17 or 18 years of age and can only play for a certain period of time at the senior level if they play. So give them time to build up fitness (in particular for the type of football we play) and they will be far better suited to debut in season 2 at the club than they would in season 1.

Yes, our 3 draft picks most likely won't play in 08, but we still have a fair few other picks from other drafts ready to go in 08 who we still need to find out if they are good enough and Roos has been on the money so far with the ones that have made it to the senior level and stayed there.



There is one thing to get some excitement in the ranks, its another to throw kids to the wolves to early.....

We have some good prospects ready to go if called upon and therefore if the 3 selected at the draft this year are held back as per usual to build up their match fitness, so be it. Won't impact of their quailty when they get to the senior side, their brains will decide that.

and just one mroe point: you mention roos not playing kids in first year, and giving them time to develop
and you mentioned grundy
i am still frustrated and confused, like many others, over why grundy hasn't been given more than 2-3 games at a time in his preferred forward position, and by that i mean allowed to stay on the field for a great part of a game, to develop his confidence and establish himself

[robbieando]

i agree roos is nothing like eade, but he's not mick malthouse either
i see c'wood 06-07 as a fantastic example ... wther by design or necessity, malthouse DID throw quite a few kids "to the wolves" and as a result he has the best young list in the league now taking valuable experience into the new season, with a genuine shot at a flag

Collingwood did have the advantage leading up to the 06/07 seasons of having at 5 Top 10 picks in the 04, 05 and 06 drafts (which when you consider we have only have 4 Top 10 pick since 98). Therefore they have had access to better talent via the draft better we have had picks.

Also as for dropping them "in the deep end" they did so as a team not expected to make the finals in 2006 and in 2007 they were doing so to cover injuries to the likes of Buckley, Clement and other important senior players. We haven't been in that position. No doubt if we were, we would be going down that path, but we aren't.

i'm not saying we're in ther same boat as the pies were, but before anyone says we don't have the same talent in our kids, i'll quickly say: how would any of us know?

I'd think the coaching staff would be the best judges of that and not people on a football forum. Of course we won't know until we play them, but the fact we aren't playing them suggests two things

1) They aren't THAT talented that they are ready to play senior football on that talent alone and
2) The coaching staff consider fitness to be as important as talant when thinking giving a player a spot in the senior side for the first time.

a lot of the players c'wood brought into the senior side this year were lower draft picks or rookies, but they were given a chance and took it'

Very true, but they got there chances because of injuries to senior players and proved themselves. No different to what would happen at the Swans, problem being we a) rarely get injuries and b) if we do we have ways of covering for most of them anyway. Collingwood had important players miss games for long periods, we only had Kennelly, LRT and Hall resting for a game here or there. Schmidt came in and proved himself as a senior player and Barlow looked to have done the same late in the season and will have to take his chance in 08.

the biggest difference, i'd suggest, is that those magpie youngsters were cutting their teeth in the VFL, whereas our kids are stuck playing in the ACT league and we're all aware of the gulf between the two competitions

Playing in the VFL would be nice, but Collingwood have split away from their VFL team to form their own team, like we did (when we joined the ACTAFL), so clearly they see something in the path we and Geelong have taken in keeping our reserves teams in-house rather than shipping them out to another side to handle.

Plus on the Gulf in glass issue, I didn't here people complaining about it in 2003 and 2004 when we didn't win ACTAFL Premierships or everygame??? We have only won Premiership 3 of the 5 years we have been playing in the ACTAFL.

but seriously, being thrown in at the deep end will give these players (and the club and fans) a very quick idea of who'll sink and who might be able to swim[quote]

It might, but I think the club whats to play the kids WHEN THEY ARE READY, not when they aren't. No point ruining a kid to prove if he is any good or not, when you could of waited a year or two and proven that he was indeed good. Imagine that policy and its effect on Malceski??? He wouldn't be on our list I'm betting.

[quote]it's not much different to going in with the same old, tired journeymen who we already know WON"T be swimming too far before they start to flounder due to ageing, injury-riddled bodies, slowing response time or fading decision-making abilities

At this point in time we DON'T want to be doing a Carlton or St Kilda, but doing what we have done for the past 12 years and what Geelong, Brisbane, West Coast and Port Adelaide have done. We can slip down the ladder for a year, blood some kids after the finals chances have pasted (like we did in 02) and get the early picks and rebound the next year.

If we fall into the trap of believing the hype of a few years down the ladder will be good for us, like St Kilda, Carlton and Richmond have then we will never rebuild in the right way and premiership won't happen anytime soon.

i am not here to condemn paul roos, and as i've said many times, i'm not talking about starting round 1 08 with 10-12 new faces/debutants in our 22, but we have to start somewhere

We do have to start somewhere and we have already and most don't even know it. We'll given Schmidt and Barlow more gametime to begin 08 and build them up into senior players within the midfield rotation by the end of the season. As the season progesses we'll see Laidlaw, O'Keefe, Moore, Jack, White, Grundy, Thornton and Brabarzon all get a handful of games (not at the same time, but in patches) to prove themselves and see how they cope at the senior level.

If we are lucky by the end of the season of those 8, 3 or 4 will have staked claims for 22 senior games in 09 and the rest will have proven that either they need more time or that they aren't up to senior football. If we are lucky Currie, Faulks, some of the rookie list players and the 3 draft picks might get a game or two and prove themselves as real talent.

[robbieando]

and just one mroe point: you mention roos not playing kids in first year, and giving them time to develop
and you mentioned grundy
i am still frustrated and confused, like many others, over why grundy hasn't been given more than 2-3 games at a time in his preferred forward position, and by that i mean allowed to stay on the field for a great part of a game, to develop his confidence and establish himself

Mainly because he has to try and stake a claim in positions held by Hall, O'Loughlin, O'Keefe, Davis and resting midfielders and ruckman. KP Forwards are harder to develop when you already have a settled line up. Hence the Grundy gametime and amount of games. No doubt he has talent, most likely as a Full Forward when O'Loughlin retires. He just has to wait and keep his confidence up.

[rancidpants13]

Mainly because he has to try and stake a claim in positions held by Hall, O'Loughlin, O'Keefe, Davis and resting midfielders and ruckman. KP Forwards are harder to develop when you already have a settled line up. Hence the Grundy gametime and amount of games. No doubt he has talent, most likely as a Full Forward when O'Loughlin retires. He just has to wait and keep his confidence up.

his confidence will not have beejn helped by being played as a defender

[rancidpants13]

Collingwood did have the advantage leading up to the 06/07 seasons of having at 5 Top 10 picks in the 04, 05 and 06 drafts (which when you consider we have only have 4 Top 10 pick since 98). Therefore they have had access to better talent via the draft better we have had picks.

Also as for dropping them "in the deep end" they did so as a team not expected to make the finals in 2006 and in 2007 they were doing so to cover injuries to the likes of Buckley, Clement and other important senior players. We haven't been in that position. No doubt if we were, we would be going down that path, but we aren't.



I'd think the coaching staff would be the best judges of that and not people on a football forum. Of course we won't know until we play them, but the fact we aren't playing them suggests two things

1) They aren't THAT talented that they are ready to play senior football on that talent alone and
2) The coaching staff consider fitness to be as important as talant when thinking giving a player a spot in the senior side for the first time.



Very true, but they got there chances because of injuries to senior players and proved themselves. No different to what would happen at the Swans, problem being we a) rarely get injuries and b) if we do we have ways of covering for most of them anyway. Collingwood had important players miss games for long periods, we only had Kennelly, LRT and Hall resting for a game here or there. Schmidt came in and proved himself as a senior player and Barlow looked to have done the same late in the season and will have to take his chance in 08.



Playing in the VFL would be nice, but Collingwood have split away from their VFL team to form their own team, like we did (when we joined the ACTAFL), so clearly they see something in the path we and Geelong have taken in keeping our reserves teams in-house rather than shipping them out to another side to handle.

Plus on the Gulf in glass issue, I didn't here people complaining about it in 2003 and 2004 when we didn't win ACTAFL Premierships or everygame??? We have only won Premiership 3 of the 5 years we have been playing in the ACTAFL.

[quote]but seriously, being thrown in at the deep end will give these players (and the club and fans) a very quick idea of who'll sink and who might be able to swim[quote]

It might, but I think the club whats to play the kids WHEN THEY ARE READY, not when they aren't. No point ruining a kid to prove if he is any good or not, when you could of waited a year or two and proven that he was indeed good. Imagine that policy and its effect on Malceski??? He wouldn't be on our list I'm betting.



At this point in time we DON'T want to be doing a Carlton or St Kilda, but doing what we have done for the past 12 years and what Geelong, Brisbane, West Coast and Port Adelaide have done. We can slip down the ladder for a year, blood some kids after the finals chances have pasted (like we did in 02) and get the early picks and rebound the next year.

If we fall into the trap of believing the hype of a few years down the ladder will be good for us, like St Kilda, Carlton and Richmond have then we will never rebuild in the right way and premiership won't happen anytime soon.



We do have to start somewhere and we have already and most don't even know it. We'll given Schmidt and Barlow more gametime to begin 08 and build them up into senior players within the midfield rotation by the end of the season. As the season progesses we'll see Laidlaw, O'Keefe, Moore, Jack, White, Grundy, Thornton and Brabarzon all get a handful of games (not at the same time, but in patches) to prove themselves and see how they cope at the senior level.

If we are lucky by the end of the season of those 8, 3 or 4 will have staked claims for 22 senior games in 09 and the rest will have proven that either they need more time or that they aren't up to senior football. If we are lucky Currie, Faulks, some of the rookie list players and the 3 draft picks might get a game or two and prove themselves as real talent.

if we start round 1 with the same 22 that finished 07, we are already heading down the path c'wood were reportedly on at the start of 07
we WILL NOT PLAY FINALS
as i see it, and as i have said before, a sqans 22 that includes crouch, mathews, mcveigh, bevan, l barry, l brennan and a few others will not take us into the finals in 08

[boms]

I would of thought Veszpermi would be ready to play AFL football. Whats the point of not playing them seriously? You need to give them experience of playing maybe 3-4-5 games of elite football it will just give them more confidence. I cant believe Paul Roos doesnt understand that

[rancidpants13]

I would of thought Veszpermi would be ready to play AFL football. Whats the point of not playing them seriously? You need to give them experience of playing maybe 3-4-5 games of elite football it will just give them more confidence. I cant believe Paul Roos doesnt understand that

yes, a very good point, bomber boy....surely the players selected higher in the draft are more likely than not to be ready to play senior football
what's not being commented on is quite simply WHY roos, or anyone in the swans hierarchy, would bother making statements referring to players NOT being ready for senior football, when, after a good preseason, they just darn well might be

[robbieando]

if we start round 1 with the same 22 that finished 07, we are already heading down the path c'wood were reportedly on at the start of 07 we WILL NOT PLAY FINALS

Well considering we traded Schneider that's at least one player who won't be starting in Round 1 who finished 07 in the 22.......

We will play the 22 players in Round 1 that the coaching staff "BELIEVE" are the best available 22 players to take the field. Who those players are is up in the air, but at least it won't be the same 22 that played in the Final against Collingwood, because for starters we have to make room for Kennelly and Mattner and we have no idea what role injuries will play in the pre season matches on those that are still at the club from the team that lined up in the final.

as i see it, and as i have said before, a sqans 22 that includes crouch, mathews, mcveigh, bevan, l barry, l brennan and a few others will not take us into the finals in 08

Most likely not, but the Swans have a gameplan and those players (other than Brennan) have roles in the team that need to be covered if they are to be replaced. Its easy to say who we should drop, its another to say who we should replace them with and replace them with successfully.

Jack "could" take over the role of Bevan and Crouch (only one of Bevan and Crouch should play if at all), but his two games so far haven't been slam dunk statements where they say "I'm the replacement for so and so"

Mathews is Mathews and if Roos is serious about inject leg speed into the side, I would bring Buchanan back into the side and drop Mathews and use McVeigh in the role Mathews has been playing over the last few years.

As for Leo Barry, come on who is going to replace him??? As much as his ability is starting to fall away, we really haven't got a Full Back for the future ready to go other than Jessie White who I'd rather use at CHF after Hall and Grundy who really isn't suited to the position (but has played defence in the reserves and as a junior.

Yes dropping the wipping boys would be nice, but we have to be serious about it and look at the big picture. We need to find either a like for like replacement or a spotgap who fills a need as a way of learning to become a senior footballer.

[robbieando]

his confidence will not have beejn helped by being played as a defender

He has played in defence in the reserves since joining the club and he played there as a junior. So he has the ability to play there, just not when a few others (Leo, LRT and Tadhg) were out at the same time against the West Coast Eagle at Subi.

He could be a long term replacement for Leo at Full Back, but you can't judge him on one game when the defence was injury hit and he was a late call up and was expected to play up forward.

[robbieando]

yes, a very good point, bomber boy....surely the players selected higher in the draft are more likely than not to be ready to play senior football
what's not being commented on is quite simply WHY roos, or anyone in the swans hierarchy, would bother making statements referring to players NOT being ready for senior football, when, after a good preseason, they just darn well might be

Fitness pure and simple. Can't expect an 17 or 18 year old to gain the type of fitness to run out the full 4 quarters of an Senior AFL within just 2 and half months of Pre Season Training and another month and half Pre Season Matches.

If we put too much pressure on them to play senior football in year 1 (when their bodies aren't yet ready) then we run the risk of them become injury-riddled 5 years down the line. Ease them into football, we know they have the talent, let them prove they have the fitness required to play at a far higher level and we will benefit as a club in the long run.

Heck if they prove they are ready in Round 14 and their form in the reserves warrants it, then give them a run in the seniors. No one is against them playing in year one or saying they don't have talent, they are just giving them extra time to gain fitness and in turn protect themselves from injuries in the long run.

[snappy]

On Barry it begs the question. Who is his most likey replacement? Is he in our squad? If not why havent we drafted for his replacement?
If Grundy is in the equation i personally will not be that pleased. He has great hands, good kick, leads well and i reckon he enjoys kicking goals. Of coarse this is all from his couple of games in 06..
Why wouldnt any of our new draftees get a game this year? If there fit enough and good enough then they should get a game, if there is an opening.
Like most i dont mind the rotation policy, but more importantly i hope the selectors pick teams based on performance not repuation, though saying that one would think our 05/06 draftees are in for real chance this year, going off what Liz has pointed out and i believe it is a factor, is that fitness and strength levels need to be at a optimun to play in our 22.

[rancidpants13]

Fitness pure and simple. Can't expect an 17 or 18 year old to gain the type of fitness to run out the full 4 quarters of an Senior AFL within just 2 and half months of Pre Season Training and another month and half Pre Season Matches.

If we put too much pressure on them to play senior football in year 1 (when their bodies aren't yet ready) then we run the risk of them become injury-riddled 5 years down the line. Ease them into football, we know they have the talent, let them prove they have the fitness required to play at a far higher level and we will benefit as a club in the long run.

Heck if they prove they are ready in Round 14 and their form in the reserves warrants it, then give them a run in the seniors. No one is against them playing in year one or saying they don't have talent, they are just giving them extra time to gain fitness and in turn protect themselves from injuries in the long run.

i don't mean to be irritating, but if you bring up fitness, or the health of a player's body, how did crouch or leo get picked to play in our final loss to the pies??? neither was near peak, and crouch has not been fit to properly contribute since early 06 from memory, he should be "asked" to retire before 08 starts...yes, he can run a marathon, no he can't take the speed and physicality of senior football anymore
leo's mental fitness is more of a concern in his case....he refuses to accept that he has lost his pace, particularly pace off the mark, and is therefore vulnerable to being caught in possession (by lumbering ruckmen, no less)...surely none of our younger players could do any worse than what barry, crouch and mathews did against c'wood

i acknowledge what you say about the wear and tear on younger bodies, but the wear and tear is more than just showing on a lot of our older bodies

[robbieando]

i don't mean to be irritating, but if you bring up fitness, or the health of a player's body, how did crouch or leo get picked to play in our final loss to the pies??? neither was near peak, and crouch has not been fit to properly contribute since early 06 from memory, he should be "asked" to retire before 08 starts...yes, he can run a marathon, no he can't take the speed and physicality of senior football anymore
leo's mental fitness is more of a concern in his case....he refuses to accept that he has lost his pace, particularly pace off the mark, and is therefore vulnerable to being caught in possession (by lumbering ruckmen, no less)...surely none of our younger players could do any worse than what barry, crouch and mathews did against c'wood

i acknowledge what you say about the wear and tear on younger bodies, but the wear and tear is more than just showing on a lot of our older bodies

Good point, but in the case of the older players fitness is less of an issue because they have already proved that they can play 4 quarters of senior football week in and week out and are important members of our team.

In the case of Crouch I have no doubt the club wanted to get him to the 200 game mark at the very least last season, he came back too early when he should of played a few more games in the reserves to build up his "match fitness". He got injuried again and worked his way back into the senior team the way he should of in the first place. I don't think him being in the side cost us in the two losses against Collingwood. Him being in the side earlier in the side had a negitive impact. As for 2008 he will at least be coming into the season off the back of his first full pre season in a long long time and hopefully his body will respond to that and he will get back to his 2005 form. But if it doesn't 2008 MUST be his last season for the sake of progess.

As for Leo Barry, he is getting hanged unfairly for his natural style of play which was effected because he was rushed back into the side out of pure need in time for the finals from a hamstring injury which effects ANYONES speed. So of course he was going to get caught like he did because he didn't know what his body was capable of doing. Again let him come back from his injury, go though a full pre season and then judge him on what comes out of him from a full injury free season.

As I have said its easy to say we should replace so and so, but the question with most players is who with and how?? Leo Barry is an undersized Fullback who plays above his weight, so if we drop him who do we drop him with. If we drop Bevan, Crouch and Mathews who play as either taggers, small defenders or defensive midfielders, who do we replace them with?

Its easy to put forward names of players who should be in the side and players who shouldn't be in the side, but we have a gameplan and style of play that requires certain types of players and therefore most of the players put forward we don't even know as fans if they fit and as fans we don't understand the importance of players we put forward to drop.

I'm all for playing our best 22 players, but I'm also for playing the best team we can put on the park each week and that means some players will get games when they really shouldn't, some players will miss because of injuires or even because of match up reasons. But going forward this club can't rebuild if they think dropping players and bringing in kids out of position is a good way to go about it.

I trust the club and the way they are going about it. After all they have got us Malceski and Schmidt for the future and we have a few likely types ready for action when the call goes out and the way the club has blooded players under Roos, normally they do well when the reach the senior team. Some fans are just getting restless because the Premiership window has past and now the rebuild begins and yet they don't see how we really do it because we rebuild by sleath. Worked in 2002/2003 and most likely will work again over 2008/2009 building towards 2010 and beyond.

Remember everyone said we had no youth, no depth in 2002 when Kelly, Schwass and Dunkley retired and would stuggle for years until we built depth via the draft. How wrong were they then?? Plus how many of the 2002 National Draft class that year played in 2003??? Yep, NONE.

[FM0226]

As for Leo Barry, he is getting hanged unfairly for his natural style of play which was effected because he was rushed back into the side out of pure need in time for the finals from a hamstring injury which effects ANYONES speed. So of course he was going to get caught like he did because he didn't know what his body was capable of doing. Again let him come back from his injury, go though a full pre season and then judge him on what comes out of him from a full injury free season.

As I have said its easy to say we should replace so and so, but the question with most players is who with and how?? Leo Barry is an undersized Fullback who plays above his weight, so if we drop him who do we drop him with. If we drop Bevan, Crouch and Mathews who play as either taggers, small defenders or defensive midfielders, who do we replace them with?

Its easy to put forward names of players who should be in the side and players who shouldn't be in the side, but we have a gameplan and style of play that requires certain types of players and therefore most of the players put forward we don't even know as fans if they fit and as fans we don't understand the importance of players we put forward to drop.

I'm all for playing our best 22 players, but I'm also for playing the best team we can put on the park each week and that means some players will get games when they really shouldn't, some players will miss because of injuires or even because of match up reasons. But going forward this club can't rebuild if they think dropping players and bringing in kids out of position is a good way to go about it.

I trust the club and the way they are going about it. After all they have got us Malceski and Schmidt for the future and we have a few likely types ready for action when the call goes out and the way the club has blooded players under Roos, normally they do well when the reach the senior team. Some fans are just getting restless because the Premiership window has past and now the rebuild begins and yet they don't see how we really do it because we rebuild by sleath. Worked in 2002/2003 and most likely will work again over 2008/2009 building towards 2010 and beyond.

Remember everyone said we had no youth, no depth in 2002 when Kelly, Schwass and Dunkley retired and would stuggle for years until we built depth via the draft. How wrong were they then?? Plus how many of the 2002 National Draft class that year played in 2003??? Yep, NONE.

I have no problems about first year player not getting games, but we are in a bit of strife when second and year players are having trouble getting games and in the case of Schmidt, where I thought he was unfairly dropped despite playing well in limited minutes and out of position. It's also a worry when a player like Moore, who is frequently the best in the reserves, struggles to get any games despite being a third year player.

And if those two struggles to hold onto a spot permanently, how will our 2005 picks go? It's their third year, is the coaching staff writing them off?

As for Leo, the trouble is that even when he's close to full fitness, he has lost a step or two. With Gorilla full forwards a close to extinct species in the AFL, it seems as though every opponent now out-paces him. Despite some heroics in the length of his career, the main thing he offers his in full back is his rebound, rather than him being able to shut down a player consistently - and there's severe doubts on whether he would still be able to give us that next year.

In my view, there's actually quite a few options we can use at FB. With LRT back, with him being close to fitness and if he can goes back to his 2005, early 2006 form, then one of the key back spots is his to have. Then we will have the flexibilty of C. Bolton playing on the other tall, or Ted Richards - who showed he is a better back than a forward and release Bolton onto a medium or third tall and allow him to play a more attacking/rebounding role.

Playfair, from what I heard, is also a better key back than a forward - in fact, most Geelong supporters seems to think he's absolutely tragic when thrown up forward in the VFL - obviously this might not be the truth but you have to remember the Roos claimed Ted Richards is a potentially replacement for Hall - and frankly he has shown absolutely nothing in his limited time in the forward line (leads to the wings and sends in an ugly ball inside 50 - that's about all he manages).

I'll be honest to say that I don't have a lot of trust in the club's recruitment team at this point of time. Yes, we have a habit of making late picks work and most of the better players in the team are late picks - but is that a sign of good recruiting or good luck?

If the recruiting team are such good judgement of talent, then it should really be the other way around. That the early pick should stars while we get servicable players from the later rounds of the draft. But in reality, players that they think are top 5 or ten top 15/16 material are AFL players, but mostly are role-level players (Fosdike, Bolton, Crouch, McVeigh with Willougby delisted without a senior game), while most of the players they think are in the 40-70 range became our star players (Magic, Goodes, Malceski, O'Keefe, Buchanan etc.) To me, this suggests that the fact we got the list we have today is more due to luck (where a third/fourth round pick is as good as a first, or even better) than good judgement of talent.

We got extremely lucky with the majority of our high risk/high return picks - Goodes was a tweener with reported attitude problems, O'Keefe was a tweener too slow for midfield and too small for a KP, Malceski has severe injury problems as a junior despite all his skills, Buchanan was a small forward that was delisted before redrafted and was re-invented as an inside/outside midfielder. LRT is another big punt with very few Aussie rules experience under his belt.

On the other hand, with all their talk about small/mediums being easier to evaluate (thus safer options) and therefore would (and was) drafted in the first and second round picks, only Bolton was close to AA level (in early 2005) and the majority, if not all, are merely servicable role players. The best midfielders we have are 'talls' such as Goodes and O'Keefe, while a rookie-listed player in Kirk held it together.

Roos is amazing in being able to turn some of the fringe players into stars by re-inventing their roles to create mis-matches: eg. Goodes as mobile ruckman that runs all ruckman to the ground, then as a tall, power midfielder that no one can match up on, O'Keefe from a fringe third forward to a hard-running midfielder that runs his opponent off the map, Kirk from a slow forward with a dodgy kick to an inspiration inside midfielder that reads the play extremely well, tags, extracts with top-class hand-balls, Leo as a rebounding FB etc. But I'm not convinced about his recruiting methods yet.

We've had a lot of good luck in recycling players like Hall, Jolly and Bolton, but that good luck looks as though it's starting to run out with Chambers, Spriggs and to a lesser extent, Ted Richards. There is still very little depth in key positions up front and how long can we keep hoping for of Magic and Hall staying fit all season? As good as our performances without Hall was last year, it required some inspiration from O'Keefe who simply 'crashed' every contest he could get himself to - and I really don't see how his body (or mind) can maintain it for a whole season.

[rancidpants13]

I have no problems about first year player not getting games, but we are in a bit of strife when second and year players are having trouble getting games and in the case of Schmidt, where I thought he was unfairly dropped despite playing well in limited minutes and out of position. It's also a worry when a player like Moore, who is frequently the best in the reserves, struggles to get any games despite being a third year player.

And if those two struggles to hold onto a spot permanently, how will our 2005 picks go? It's their third year, is the coaching staff writing them off?

As for Leo, the trouble is that even when he's close to full fitness, he has lost a step or two. With Gorilla full forwards a close to extinct species in the AFL, it seems as though every opponent now out-paces him. Despite some heroics in the length of his career, the main thing he offers his in full back is his rebound, rather than him being able to shut down a player consistently - and there's severe doubts on whether he would still be able to give us that next year.

In my view, there's actually quite a few options we can use at FB. With LRT back, with him being close to fitness and if he can goes back to his 2005, early 2006 form, then one of the key back spots is his to have. Then we will have the flexibilty of C. Bolton playing on the other tall, or Ted Richards - who showed he is a better back than a forward and release Bolton onto a medium or third tall and allow him to play a more attacking/rebounding role.

Playfair, from what I heard, is also a better key back than a forward - in fact, most Geelong supporters seems to think he's absolutely tragic when thrown up forward in the VFL - obviously this might not be the truth but you have to remember the Roos claimed Ted Richards is a potentially replacement for Hall - and frankly he has shown absolutely nothing in his limited time in the forward line (leads to the wings and sends in an ugly ball inside 50 - that's about all he manages).

I'll be honest to say that I don't have a lot of trust in the club's recruitment team at this point of time. Yes, we have a habit of making late picks work and most of the better players in the team are late picks - but is that a sign of good recruiting or good luck?

If the recruiting team are such good judgement of talent, then it should really be the other way around. That the early pick should stars while we get servicable players from the later rounds of the draft. But in reality, players that they think are top 5 or ten top 15/16 material are AFL players, but mostly are role-level players (Fosdike, Bolton, Crouch, McVeigh with Willougby delisted without a senior game), while most of the players they think are in the 40-70 range became our star players (Magic, Goodes, Malceski, O'Keefe, Buchanan etc.) To me, this suggests that the fact we got the list we have today is more due to luck (where a third/fourth round pick is as good as a first, or even better) than good judgement of talent.

We got extremely lucky with the majority of our high risk/high return picks - Goodes was a tweener with reported attitude problems, O'Keefe was a tweener too slow for midfield and too small for a KP, Malceski has severe injury problems as a junior despite all his skills, Buchanan was a small forward that was delisted before redrafted and was re-invented as an inside/outside midfielder. LRT is another big punt with very few Aussie rules experience under his belt.

On the other hand, with all their talk about small/mediums being easier to evaluate (thus safer options) and therefore would (and was) drafted in the first and second round picks, only Bolton was close to AA level (in early 2005) and the majority, if not all, are merely servicable role players. The best midfielders we have are 'talls' such as Goodes and O'Keefe, while a rookie-listed player in Kirk held it together.

Roos is amazing in being able to turn some of the fringe players into stars by re-inventing their roles to create mis-matches: eg. Goodes as mobile ruckman that runs all ruckman to the ground, then as a tall, power midfielder that no one can match up on, O'Keefe from a fringe third forward to a hard-running midfielder that runs his opponent off the map, Kirk from a slow forward with a dodgy kick to an inspiration inside midfielder that reads the play extremely well, tags, extracts with top-class hand-balls, Leo as a rebounding FB etc. But I'm not convinced about his recruiting methods yet.

We've had a lot of good luck in recycling players like Hall, Jolly and Bolton, but that good luck looks as though it's starting to run out with Chambers, Spriggs and to a lesser extent, Ted Richards. There is still very little depth in key positions up front and how long can we keep hoping for of Magic and Hall staying fit all season? As good as our performances without Hall was last year, it required some inspiration from O'Keefe who simply 'crashed' every contest he could get himself to - and I really don't see how his body (or mind) can maintain it for a whole season.

definitely, we cannot continue recycling players from other clubs....well, we can try but you're exactly right about what we're doing with our second and third-year players, and why we suddenly seem to be wondering where our future stars are

certainly, leo barry's days as a KP defender are surely over, and while i accept the previous point about crouch and the possible benefits of him having a full preseason, it remains the case that he is close to the end of his career, as are leo, micky o, ben mathews and spida everitt, while the likes of paul bevan are on their absolute last chance to prove worthy of persisting with in the seniors
i do think ted richards has done far, far more than chambers or spriggs, and in fact he was almost a GF-winning hero in 06, but his form in 07 was patchy and i think he has suffered from being used in different positions to fill several roles when others were injured or not performing

but going back to what i was originally trying to say ... i don't have a problem with throwing young players in to the deep end, and if we suffer losses but the players develop quicker, it's worth the short-term pain
it would be a terrible shame if, at the end of 08, the likes of moore, laidlaw, schmidt, brabazon, grundy et al were cut without getting a fair chance to play seniors, yet they've sat and watched crouch, mathews, bevan and leo barry play ordinary football in the firsts as the team slides into the bottom reaches of the table

[robbieando]

I have no problems about first year player not getting games, but we are in a bit of strife when second and year players are having trouble getting games and in the case of Schmidt, where I thought he was unfairly dropped despite playing well in limited minutes and out of position. It's also a worry when a player like Moore, who is frequently the best in the reserves, struggles to get any games despite being a third year player.

Schmidt, in 2006 you would have a case, but he was only in the team to see what he was made of (as was Grundy and Phillips) but last year he was able to step up and claim a regular spot in the midfield rotation as the season went on and play in a final. He will become even more important a player to the team in 2008. As for Moore, the main reason he has stuggled to get games in the seniors is purely down to injuries he keeps getting and not his form. He played senior football in his first season and save for the amount of injuries his has had since then he might of been a regular by now.

And if those two struggles to hold onto a spot permanently, how will our 2005 picks go? It's their third year, is the coaching staff writing them off?

Schmidt has hardly stuggled considering he'll be a regular senior player next year and Moore would be the same except for the amount of injuries he has had. The 2005 group will be interesting, Laidlaw the coaching staff clearly feel has enough talent to a) give he his first senior game and b) trade Dempster given our depth of hard running Half Back/Midfielders. As for Thornton and Brabazon well they have this season to prove themselves. One will do it and and the other well who knows.... but the club certainly haven't marked their cards.

As for Leo, the trouble is that even when he's close to full fitness, he has lost a step or two. With Gorilla full forwards a close to extinct species in the AFL, it seems as though every opponent now out-paces him. Despite some heroics in the length of his career, the main thing he offers his in full back is his rebound, rather than him being able to shut down a player consistently - and there's severe doubts on whether he would still be able to give us that next year.

I think the main issue with Leo is that he SHOULDN'T be a Full Back to begin with and that the club has never fully bothered to replace Dunkley and Schauble. Once Leo held Gehrig to 0 Goals and 0 Kicks in 2004 they decided that they had found their stopgap and the stopgap has now lasted into its 4th season. Yes he has lost some pace and it was at its clearest against Collingwood because he was just back from injury. At least going into this new season with a full pre season behind him, he'll at least know a) what his body his capable of doing and b) what style of Full Back he'll be expected to be by the coaching staff.

In my view, there's actually quite a few options we can use at FB. With LRT back, with him being close to fitness and if he can goes back to his 2005, early 2006 form, then one of the key back spots is his to have. Then we will have the flexibilty of C. Bolton playing on the other tall, or Ted Richards - who showed he is a better back than a forward and release Bolton onto a medium or third tall and allow him to play a more attacking/rebounding role.

Leo and the Full Back Position only becomes an issue when we play a team that has 2 or more tall marking options up forward and we don't control the midfield as we saw again Collingwood. We can handle most teams without issue if there is only one forward and we can even beat the likes of Hawthorn who have a strong forward set up by winning though the midfield, but when we can't control the midfield thats where we get beaten.

Playfair, from what I heard, is also a better key back than a forward - in fact, most Geelong supporters seems to think he's absolutely tragic when thrown up forward in the VFL - obviously this might not be the truth but you have to remember the Roos claimed Ted Richards is a potentially replacement for Hall - and frankly he has shown absolutely nothing in his limited time in the forward line (leads to the wings and sends in an ugly ball inside 50 - that's about all he manages).

Playfair could be a handy pickup, but I'm not going to be resting the wait of a rebuild on his shoulders just yet. I rather wait and see what he can do on the field. Yes, Ted Richards was brought up to Sydney as a Forward and basically has turned out to be better suited as a Defender but has suffered form wise from Roos not keeping him in the one role. His best game was the GF and that how we should play him. As for Playfair I don't have him in the starting 22 yet, but thats because I don't know how he will be used and who he would then replace.

I'll be honest to say that I don't have a lot of trust in the club's recruitment team at this point of time. Yes, we have a habit of making late picks work and most of the better players in the team are late picks - but is that a sign of good recruiting or good luck?

I'd say its a bit of both. Because we haven't had access to early picks basically since 1998 we have had to scout for the hidden gems and therefore are better at it then most other clubs, because we rely on it for success. Also while we might take the best available early on, we take need late on and therefore are more likely to get the best out of our late picks. Of course luck is involved, but that goes with each and every pick of the draft early or late.

If the recruiting team are such good judgement of talent, then it should really be the other way around.

No. Because sometimes the late picks have been injured for a year during under 18 football or played school football rather than the TAC Cup. The draft isn't best way to judge the talent pool and some players develop later than others and hence why someone who gets picked at 67 turns out better than someone picked at 2.

That the early pick should stars while we get servicable players from the later rounds of the draft. But in reality, players that they think are top 5 or ten top 15/16 material are AFL players, but mostly are role-level players (Fosdike, Bolton, Crouch, McVeigh with Willougby delisted without a senior game), while most of the players they think are in the 40-70 range became our star players (Magic, Goodes, Malceski, O'Keefe, Buchanan etc.) To me, this suggests that the fact we got the list we have today is more due to luck (where a third/fourth round pick is as good as a first, or even better) than good judgement of talent.

When you draft a player you really never know how they will turn out and that goes for all clubs. The idea that your stars should be high draft picks is wrong because if that was the case the Swans would forever be a team finishing 8th or 9th. The fact is we knew what we were looking for in a player, got it and let them develop in our system and reaped the rewards. If thats luck so be it.

We got extremely lucky with the majority of our high risk/high return picks - Goodes was a tweener with reported attitude problems, O'Keefe was a tweener too slow for midfield and too small for a KP, Malceski has severe injury problems as a junior despite all his skills, Buchanan was a small forward that was delisted before redrafted and was re-invented as an inside/outside midfielder. LRT is another big punt with very few Aussie rules experience under his belt.

The Swans scouts would of known of all these players issues and concerns and taken them into account and known that they had an upside in our system. Its not like we used a 1st Round pick on them, but we got rewarded well for taking because we scouted them and knew that they would suit the club.

On the other hand, with all their talk about small/mediums being easier to evaluate (thus safer options) and therefore would (and was) drafted in the first and second round picks, only Bolton was close to AA level (in early 2005) and the majority, if not all, are merely servicable role players. The best midfielders we have are 'talls' such as Goodes and O'Keefe, while a rookie-listed player in Kirk held it together.

But only four players on our 2007 list are first round midfielder picks (Jude Bolton, Fosdike, McVeigh and Daniel O'Keefe) so hardly the range to that point (mainly because we hardly have early draft picks) and second round midfield pick on our 2007 list were Moore, Schmidt and Ablett.

Roos is amazing in being able to turn some of the fringe players into stars by re-inventing their roles to create mis-matches: eg. Goodes as mobile ruckman that runs all ruckman to the ground, then as a tall, power midfielder that no one can match up on, O'Keefe from a fringe third forward to a hard-running midfielder that runs his opponent off the map, Kirk from a slow forward with a dodgy kick to an inspiration inside midfielder that reads the play extremely well, tags, extracts with top-class hand-balls, Leo as a rebounding FB etc. But I'm not convinced about his recruiting methods yet.

He has turned around players (Goodes was a player who should of never been forced to become a Key Position player and hence made a decision somewhat easy for Roos) and made gameplans to suits the players he has and the way teams play us, but as for recruiting its far to early to judge him because a) he hasn't been in charge long enough to judge his recruits over those left over from Eade and b) he has gone though a period of success which has left the club unable to go for the youth as many would of liked them to.

I personally like his methods of finding gems late on in drafts (just don't like the refusal to draft KP Defenders) and use of the rookie list. We have a nice group of kids forming behind the senior team and 2008 will see them come though.

We've had a lot of good luck in recycling players like Hall, Jolly and Bolton, but that good luck looks as though it's starting to run out with Chambers, Spriggs and to a lesser extent, Ted Richards.

You can't be successful in trades all the time. Chambers was a HUGE mistake, Spriggs cost us nothing for the two years we had him and basically provided back up to the likes of Fosdike and McVeigh if they got injured and Richards will turn out OK if given a role that a) suits him and b) is allowed to play there for more than one game.

There is still very little depth in key positions up front and how long can we keep hoping for of Magic and Hall staying fit all season? As good as our performances without Hall was last year, it required some inspiration from O'Keefe who simply 'crashed' every contest he could get himself to - and I really don't see how his body (or mind) can maintain it for a whole season.

KP is a problem area and its one everyone brings up, but as things stand we have Jessie White and Grundy as the replacements to Hall and O'Loughlin long term with Playfair in the mix. Up back is the greater issue.

[robbieando]

definitely, we cannot continue recycling players from other clubs....well, we can try but you're exactly right about what we're doing with our second and third-year players, and why we suddenly seem to be wondering where our future stars are

Who at the start of 2006 would of thought that by the end of 2007 that Nick Malceski would be a star of the Swans?? I certainly didn't think he'd be as good as his turned out to be, but to say we are wondering where our future stars are is just crazy. We have at least 6 players (Schmidt, Barlow, Jack, Moore, White and Grundy) who are ready to take senior football by storm and by the end of the 2009 season we could be saying "gee, wonder what all that fuss was about our future."

We went though this in 2002/2003 pre season and what happen next we made the Prelim Final in 2003. So who know whats going to happen next year and who is going to step up (not that I think we'll pull a 2003).

certainly, leo barry's days as a KP defender are surely over, and while i accept the previous point about crouch and the possible benefits of him having a full preseason, it remains the case that he is close to the end of his career, as are leo, micky o, ben mathews and spida everitt,

Your would think Crouch and Mathews have to prove their worth to the team this season, otherwise they will get retired off, while I think Magic and Everitt will get another season each in 2009 depending on form and injuries. Leo, Kirk and Hall most likely go out depending on their own wishes (because of their captancy) over 09/10.

while the likes of paul bevan are on their absolute last chance to prove worthy of persisting with in the seniors

As far as the likes of Bevan, McVeigh and co around that age is concerned, their positions only become under threat if the kids under them prove to be better than them and take over their spots and therefore the need to get rid of them from the salary cap and senior list becomes greater. Therefore, its up to them and the younger kids to make the clubs decision.

but going back to what i was originally trying to say ... i don't have a problem with throwing young players in to the deep end, and if we suffer losses but the players develop quicker, it's worth the short-term pain

Depends on what players and when in the season. If your talking of Laidlaw and O'Keefe getting a game in Round 15 because our season is over then I have no issue with that. Blood the kids then, but if we are going to play the kids we have just drafted in Round 1 then I'm against that.

it would be a terrible shame if, at the end of 08, the likes of moore, laidlaw, schmidt, brabazon, grundy et al were cut without getting a fair chance to play seniors, yet they've sat and watched crouch, mathews, bevan and leo barry play ordinary football in the firsts as the team slides into the bottom reaches of the table

I doubt that will happen (not saying any kids won't get cut, some will as a matter of course but not without the club having a fair idea about their ability) but we will blood kids such as Barlow, Schmidt like we did last year and turn and get the starting to have a younger look about it.

If we make the finals or not is really not up for debate. Its about how we develop the kids and I think we do it well enough. We haven't let go of any superstars since Carey, any stars since Grant and any solid player since Stevens (though Dempster and Schneider are about to but that to the test).

[rancidpants13]

Who at the start of 2006 would of thought that by the end of 2007 that Nick Malceski would be a star of the Swans?? I certainly didn't think he'd be as good as his turned out to be, but to say we are wondering where our future stars are is just crazy. We have at least 6 players (Schmidt, Barlow, Jack, Moore, White and Grundy) who are ready to take senior football by storm and by the end of the 2009 season we could be saying "gee, wonder what all that fuss was about our future."

We went though this in 2002/2003 pre season and what happen next we made the Prelim Final in 2003. So who know whats going to happen next year and who is going to step up (not that I think we'll pull a 2003).



Your would think Crouch and Mathews have to prove their worth to the team this season, otherwise they will get retired off, while I think Magic and Everitt will get another season each in 2009 depending on form and injuries. Leo, Kirk and Hall most likely go out depending on their own wishes (because of their captancy) over 09/10.



As far as the likes of Bevan, McVeigh and co around that age is concerned, their positions only become under threat if the kids under them prove to be better than them and take over their spots and therefore the need to get rid of them from the salary cap and senior list becomes greater. Therefore, its up to them and the younger kids to make the clubs decision.



Depends on what players and when in the season. If your talking of Laidlaw and O'Keefe getting a game in Round 15 because our season is over then I have no issue with that. Blood the kids then, but if we are going to play the kids we have just drafted in Round 1 then I'm against that.



I doubt that will happen (not saying any kids won't get cut, some will as a matter of course but not without the club having a fair idea about their ability) but we will blood kids such as Barlow, Schmidt like we did last year and turn and get the starting to have a younger look about it.

If we make the finals or not is really not up for debate. Its about how we develop the kids and I think we do it well enough. We haven't let go of any superstars since Carey, any stars since Grant and any solid player since Stevens (though Dempster and Schneider are about to but that to the test).

i don't agree totally that those players you named are ready to take the seniors by storm.....certainly barlow is ready, i've kept the faith that grundy is too, if played as a forward, moore and schmidt can play, no doubt, and i personally have very high hopes for white

but generally, i agree with the way this discussion has gone, i spose i've simply all but run out of patience with crouch, mathews, bevan, mcveigh and, to a lesser extent, leo
but i am excited about this apparent "rebuilding phase" we're in

[FM0226]

Schmidt, in 2006 you would have a case, but he was only in the team to see what he was made of (as was Grundy and Phillips) but last year he was able to step up and claim a regular spot in the midfield rotation as the season went on and play in a final. He will become even more important a player to the team in 2008. As for Moore, the main reason he has stuggled to get games in the seniors is purely down to injuries he keeps getting and not his form. He played senior football in his first season and save for the amount of injuries his has had since then he might of been a regular by now.


I don't really fully agree in terms of Schmidt in 2007. My big issue is that even when he's in the first team, he gets relative little minutes and when he does, he's often used as a forward as oppose to midfield where most of us think he's best suited to. And to his credit, he has done very well (in my opinion) in that role (scoring a few important goals along the way).

I really don't think the coaching staff is rewarding him enough for the hardwork he had put in for the last few days - especially when Buchanan was out of form and in-and-out of the side and Bolton (Jude) was used on the forward flank, it was a good chance to give him more attacking responsibilities by blooding him in the midfield, instead of the spare-parts role that he seems to get. If he was only shown the same type of opportunities in 2008 as he did in 2007, I would be very disappointed.

I'm guessing that trading Schneider has a lot to do with Moore, so I do expect Moore to be given the chance to play - whether he will take it and make the senior spot his own is another thing.

As much as I like White and still have some hope for Grundy, the fact is that we seem to be placing all our eggs into one basket. Not only do KP prospect takes a long time to develop, there's also a higher chance of them not being able to make the cut. We really need a lot more prospects on the list to make sure one or two comes through when they are needed.

In my view, neither Murphy nor Orreal are KP prospects and if Rowe can't be retained as a NSW rookie, that will really leave us with just one KP prospect other than Grundy and White (either Rowe is retained or hopefully, we rookie a KP prospects) - I have fully given up on Faulks - he might still become an AFL player, but definitely not a KPP.

[rancidpants13]

I don't really fully agree in terms of Schmidt in 2007. My big issue is that even when he's in the first team, he gets relative little minutes and when he does, he's often used as a forward as oppose to midfield where most of us think he's best suited to. And to his credit, he has done very well (in my opinion) in that role (scoring a few important goals along the way).

I really don't think the coaching staff is rewarding him enough for the hardwork he had put in for the last few days - especially when Buchanan was out of form and in-and-out of the side and Bolton (Jude) was used on the forward flank, it was a good chance to give him more attacking responsibilities by blooding him in the midfield, instead of the spare-parts role that he seems to get. If he was only shown the same type of opportunities in 2008 as he did in 2007, I would be very disappointed.

I'm guessing that trading Schneider has a lot to do with Moore, so I do expect Moore to be given the chance to play - whether he will take it and make the senior spot his own is another thing.

As much as I like White and still have some hope for Grundy, the fact is that we seem to be placing all our eggs into one basket. Not only do KP prospect takes a long time to develop, there's also a higher chance of them not being able to make the cut. We really need a lot more prospects on the list to make sure one or two comes through when they are needed.

In my view, neither Murphy nor Orreal are KP prospects and if Rowe can't be retained as a NSW rookie, that will really leave us with just one KP prospect other than Grundy and White (either Rowe is retained or hopefully, we rookie a KP prospects) - I have fully given up on Faulks - he might still become an AFL player, but definitely not a KPP.

i agree we can't do anything much more than cross fingers and hope with murphy and the caravan, it's simply too early in their development to expect anything of them, although certainly murphy at least is making progress
i'm looking to dan currie as apossible KPP, even though at 200cm and still growing, he's obviously being looked at as a ruck....but he's reported to be very athletic and mobile, and possessing genuine skills, so wouldn't that be a result

i see what you're getting at regards schneider out, moore in, and i also think schmidt deserves more time and a chance closer to the ball

one player i think really will have to step up, or be passed in the pecking order, is luke brennan

the real shining light of our young blokes, the one we HAVE seen show a bit, is ed barlow
size, speed, skills and most importantly composure....looks real class

[robbieando]

I don't really fully agree in terms of Schmidt in 2007. My big issue is that even when he's in the first team, he gets relative little minutes and when he does, he's often used as a forward as oppose to midfield where most of us think he's best suited to. And to his credit, he has done very well (in my opinion) in that role (scoring a few important goals along the way).

I really don't think the coaching staff is rewarding him enough for the hardwork he had put in for the last few days - especially when Buchanan was out of form and in-and-out of the side and Bolton (Jude) was used on the forward flank, it was a good chance to give him more attacking responsibilities by blooding him in the midfield, instead of the spare-parts role that he seems to get. If he was only shown the same type of opportunities in 2008 as he did in 2007, I would be very disappointed.

I'd expect him to be used more as a midfielder in 2008. He has shown he can handle the pace at the senior level, win the ball at the senior level and hold his own at the senior level. If he doesn't play every game next season it will because of two reasons

1) Injuries or 2) His form drop away in a massive way.

I'm guessing that trading Schneider has a lot to do with Moore, so I do expect Moore to be given the chance to play - whether he will take it and make the senior spot his own is another thing.

You are most likely on to something there. Moore has played his senior football in the Schneider role, but is a natual midfielder so if he can limit the injuries next season and claim a senior spot there is no reason why he can't become Schneider's replacement.

As much as I like White and still have some hope for Grundy, the fact is that we seem to be placing all our eggs into one basket. Not only do KP prospect takes a long time to develop, there's also a higher chance of them not being able to make the cut. We really need a lot more prospects on the list to make sure one or two comes through when they are needed.

Look I would love to have more KP prospects on our list as well and I have said thats one area I don't like our recruiting. But we have to make do with what we do have already in the seniors (for as long as they last), those who are there as backup (as limited ability wise as they are) and those few prospects we have. I say it each year after the draft when we fair to improve our KP stocks, hopefully we do it next year and with the age of the senior KP players we BETTER DO IT next year.

In my view, neither Murphy nor Orreal are KP prospects and if Rowe can't be retained as a NSW rookie, that will really leave us with just one KP prospect other than Grundy and White (either Rowe is retained or hopefully, we rookie a KP prospects) - I have fully given up on Faulks - he might still become an AFL player, but definitely not a KPP.

Murphy is viewed by the club as a KP Player but he'll take time to grow into that role. I think he'll be better as a midfielder in the Goodes/Barlow mould. Orreal is a ruckman, Rowe is taking his time regardless of whether he gets back on the rookie list and with Faulks well you well may be right (rumors aren't promising) but I hold out hope of him bulking up and turning into something good as a Defender of some sort, but that will take time.

In honesty, we are fine for midfielder and ruckman at the stage, but KP Players are our weakness and we don't look likely to address it via the draft.

[DMJR]

I'll make a wild left field prediction: if Rowe is allowed to be re-rookied as a NSW boy; we'll pick a mature body KPP with some bagagge as our final normal Rookie; possibly Ryan Wilits or Llane Spaanderman.

[rancidpants13]

I'll make a wild left field prediction: if Rowe is allowed to be re-rookied as a NSW boy; we'll pick a mature body KPP with some bagagge as our final normal Rookie; possibly Ryan Wilits or Llane Spaanderman.

i'd have no problem with willits, and i don't think spaanderman has been given much of a go
although there may be off-field concerns with them, well, certainly with spaanderman

[mj23]

Ryan Willits would be a good pick up Ive seen him play for West adelaide massive unit I would use him in the backline tho something Port wouldn't do!

[FM0226]

Didn't Spaanderman went and robbed a video store or something like that? No thanks.

I'll settle for anyone over 192cm and 84 kg+ (my demands are extremely low - I'll take any tallish player right now).

[rancidpants13]

Didn't Spaanderman went and robbed a video store or something like that? No thanks.

I'll settle for anyone over 192cm and 84 kg+ (my demands are extremely low - I'll take any tallish player right now).

not sure about the robbery, but he copped trouble for stuff he put on either his myspace page or a blog site
but willits, mmm, i have no idea why port never gave him much of a crack, he seemed to come with good reports when he got picked up there

[mj23]

Willits biggest problem was he played for probally the worst team in the sanfl. He played CHF in a team with a terrible midfield and was not allowed to play CHB Choco Willams orders. Choco changed willits from glenelg to west because the bays were using him at CHB.

[Corpuscles]

Has much been said about Pat in Sydney? We havent heard much about him down here.

PS, sorry about my sig, nothing against Sydnet, just a personal thing against Pat

So you don't know much about him? but "apparently" you know him well enough to be so intimidated and scared he is the subject of your sig?:o

and then you think he will give stuff not being picked up by a team that has featured in the bottom half of the ladder and near last for , nearly half of his conscious life ( all of his teenage years)?:o

Roosey never tells the truth to idiots... they are both big lads with GO and might surprise... evryones a chance and Roosey went specifically for these two!

My read....Odds on for at least one to play a few games in 2008:thumbsu:

[scottwade]

I'll make a wild left field prediction: if Rowe is allowed to be re-rookied as a NSW boy; we'll pick a mature body KPP with some bagagge as our final normal Rookie; possibly Ryan Wilits or Llane Spaanderman.

May this year.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,21691185-2761,00.html
ANOTHER West Coast Eagle picked up a criminal record yesterday when rookie Llane Spaanderman pleaded guilty to aggravated burglary.
Spaanderman, 21, was yesterday fined $3000 and ordered to pay $370 in restitution after pleading guilty in the Perth District Court.

The ruckman admitted his role as a standover man during a violent altercation at a house party in Perth's southern suburbs in 2005.

Spaanderman's two co-offenders, armed with a baseball bat, assaulted several people at the party, smashed a glass door and damaged parts of the house's interior. Delisted by Brisbane (after being selected @pick 18 in 2003) delisted by WCE from their rookie list this year, in a team with only Cox & Seaby as frontline ruckmen.

Methinks there is a message there.

Assuming that Rowe can be 'NSW rookied', there has to be a good chance that O'Dwyer will be our rookie selection.

Generally when we've kept guys training with us (after they have been delisted), they've been redrafted.

Players that come to mind are Bennett, Hunt, Shaw, Davis and Heath James.

[DMJR]

You make a good point SW, in my Defence I did say possibly but maybe I should have written 'with a lot of bagagge'.

However, from reading posts and footy articles it appears that Spaanderman has settled down this year and played consistently good football for East Perth. Also he is only 21 and might have seen the light. I don't subscribed to the theory that the Swans can magically turn around 'bad boys'; but I believe we do have some advantages along those lines that make it more possible.

Putting all of the above together he might be worth a 12 month trial as a rookie, for we appear to be light on for mature KPP types.

[rancidpants13]

You make a good point SW, in my Defence I did say possibly but maybe I should have written 'with a lot of bagagge'.

However, from reading posts and footy articles it appears that Spaanderman has settled down this year and played consistently good football for East Perth. Also he is only 21 and might have seen the light. I don't subscribed to the theory that the Swans can magically turn around 'bad boys'; but I believe we do have some advantages along those lines that make it more possible.

Putting all of the above together he might be worth a 12 month trial as a rookie, for we appear to be light on for mature KPP types.

a year's trial would be okay IF there was a reasonable chance of him getting to play some footy....i mean senior footy
and as has been discussed on many threads, that is a big problem for the younger players and new recruits at sydney, and spaanderman would be a fair way down the order unless he absolutely blitzed in preseason
i know it's a profession, but it'd be a big ask to get the kid to uproot from west oz and come across to sydney for one year, with no guarantees, and a big chance he gets punted without even having the chance to prove himself

[Fairley]

Just wondering what Swans supporters think Veszpremi's chances of playing in '08 are?

[RUNVS]

Just wondering what Swans supporters think Veszpremi's chances of playing in '08 are?

Roos rarely if ever puts a first year player into the starting 22.

[Fairley]

Roos rarely if ever puts a first year player into the starting 22.

Yeah thats what i thought, but i think it's about time Sydney stopped relying on Kirk and Goodes and started breeding some new midfielders, if you know what i mean? You need to blood your youngsters because your window of oppurtunity is basically over and you need to start creating a new era... If you do it well you can definitely be up there again in 2 to 3 years.

[is2SWaNz]

Yeah thats what i thought, but i think it's about time Sydney stopped relying on Kirk and Goodes and started breeding some new midfielders, if you know what i mean? You need to blood your youngsters because your window of oppurtunity is basically over and you need to start creating a new era... If you do it well you can definitely be up there again in 2 to 3 years.

I think we still have an opportunity to have another crack next year, but having said that, yes I agree. We need to blood more younger players in the side. Paul Roos has mentioned that there will be some changes but the extent of the changes, we don't know. I think Veszpremi will have a good chance to have a crack next year, although it may seem inevitable to play (ala RUNVS post).

[RUNVS]

Yeah thats what i thought, but i think it's about time Sydney stopped relying on Kirk and Goodes and started breeding some new midfielders, if you know what i mean? You need to blood your youngsters because your window of oppurtunity is basically over and you need to start creating a new era... If you do it well you can definitely be up there again in 2 to 3 years.

Your preaching to the choir on this board. Unfortunately it very hard to predict what Paul Roos will actually do. So far this off season he has said that they wont be making many changes next year and then went on to say they will be making quite afew changes so no one really knows what he is planning to do.

[Fairley]

Have you got any promising young midfielders from the '05 and '06 drafts?

[RUNVS]

Have you got any promising young midfielders from the '05 and '06 drafts?

Basically just Ed Barlow and Daniel O'Keefe.

[is2SWaNz]

And Matt O'Dwyer who can play as a small forward or midfielder.

[rancidpants13]

Basically just Ed Barlow and Daniel O'Keefe.

surely laidlaw will be groomed towards midfield, won't he? unless he's being seen as a forward

[bloods01]

Your preaching to the choir on this board. Unfortunately it very hard to predict what Paul Roos will actually do. So far this off season he has said that they wont be making many changes next year and then went on to say they will be making quite afew changes so no one really knows what he is planning to do.

He also said on draft day that if they picked a midfielder with pick 11 then they would look at a KP player at 26. As we know this didn't occur. He's a very smart campaigner Roosy and what he says in a public forum doesn't always mean what he thinks. He keeps people guessing which can be a good thing I guess.

[snappy]

Basically just Ed Barlow and Daniel O'Keefe.

Can also add Jarrad Morre 04 draft..
Would Jack be considerd a promising mid?

And personally id like to see Laidlaw on the HBF, great pace, good kick, no very little about his defensive game. Could play Kennelys role in a couple of years, perhaps?