Were we too late cleaning out our list and coach last year?

[Pipefitter]

I think we are in for a few very long years.

Last year we cleared a bit of dead wood (godfrey, brown, ward etc), all for no return. An inconsistent midfielder we pegged our hopes on for so long (johnstone) who in reality was great but no class around him.

Bruce and Green never reached the peaks we would have all hoped.

Now we sit with a list thats almost at 2 ends of the spectrum. Your neitzs, yzes, robbos, whites, etc that really are beyond putting in good contributions. And then we have a bunch of very very young and POTENTIALLY good players.

Our list is completely lopsided. I know it sucks but i think we are in for a long spell at the bottom of the ladder.

[FOOOOTY]

The season hasn't even started yet!, i predict we will thump Tassie in Rnd 1. Stay on board mate, Neitz, White & Robbo are still all class players Yze i think maybe his time has passed but id be happy to be proved wrong.

Let's just wait and see where we are after rnd 3 or 4 at least b4 going so negative!

Go Dees!

[CowboyFromHell]

I think we are in for a few very long years.

Last year we cleared a bit of dead wood (godfrey, brown, ward etc), all for no return. An inconsistent midfielder we pegged our hopes on for so long (johnstone) who in reality was great but no class around him.

Bruce and Green never reached the peaks we would have all hoped.

Now we sit with a list thats almost at 2 ends of the spectrum. Your neitzs, yzes, robbos, whites, etc that really are beyond putting in good contributions. And then we have a bunch of very very young and POTENTIALLY good players.

Our list is completely lopsided. I know it sucks but i think we are in for a long spell at the bottom of the ladder.

I wouldn't go that way just yet... maybe if we end up being 0-5 then you might have real cause for concern. But the season is yet to begin and we are still missing quite a handful of handy players.

Things can only go up from here.

[thrutheguts]

I wouldn't go that way just yet... maybe if we end up being 0-5 then you might have real cause for concern. But the season is yet to begin and we are still missing quite a handful of handy players.

Things can only go up from here.
We're rubbish not one A grader on our list (maybe Bruce) we'll be lucky to win 4 games this year. We should totally clean out the list cop our medicine (3-4 years down the bottom) and start again. Neitz was a champion but the opposition teams aren't worried about him, White great player but has never been the best in the comp so ultimately will only gtet us so far. Davey & Robertson are too inconsistent, we already have some good young kids. Lets get some more - oh and you have to play the young guys, it's well documented players don't produce their best footy until they have 60-100games under their belt. hence play them young and when they are 22-23 they'll have those games and will be killing it by then.

[demonfan9]

We're rubbish not one A grader on our list (maybe Bruce) we'll be lucky to win 4 games this year. We should totally clean out the list cop our medicine (3-4 years down the bottom) and start again. Neitz was a champion but the opposition teams aren't worried about him, White great player but has never been the best in the comp so ultimately will only gtet us so far. Davey & Robertson are too inconsistent, we already have some good young kids. Lets get some more - oh and you have to play the young guys, it's well documented players don't produce their best footy until they have 60-100games under their belt. hence play them young and when they are 22-23 they'll have those games and will be killing it by then.

You start off by saying "we" then it becomes "you". And your club is listed as North Melbourne. I'm confused. :confused:

Anyway, we won 5 games last year amidst a stack of injuries, plus we lost 4 games by under a goal. I reckon that with more of our players on the park, and a bit more luck, we can win at least 10 matches this year.

[thrutheguts]

You start off by saying "we" then it becomes "you". And your club is listed as North Melbourne. I'm confused. :confused:

Anyway, we won 5 games last year amidst a stack of injuries, plus we lost 4 games by under a goal. I reckon that with more of our players on the park, and a bit more luck, we can win at least 10 matches this year.
I only said you when i was quoting "you have to play the young guys" because of the experience. Hey maybe your right and we can win 10 games (I really doubt it) but whats the point how are we going to win a flag. I just cant see the older types getting us there, we had a real crack and just missed out a few times. I think it's time to move on new blood.
The North thing, sorry it's an alias so I'm unidentified on another forum don't worry i cried when Buckenara kicked it after the siren, I sat thorugh 88 and watched us get smashed, as a kid I put up with only being able to beat the Saints and proudly ran around with number 2 on my back in the playground.
I just want a flag and can't see how the blokes I mentioned are going to get us there (I'm 31 and havn't seen one yet)

[Deenamite]

I only said you when i was quoting "you have to play the young guys" because of the experience. Hey maybe your right and we can win 10 games (I really doubt it) but whats the point how are we going to win a flag. I just cant see the older types getting us there, we had a real crack and just missed out a few times. I think it's time to move on new blood.
The North thing, sorry it's an alias so I'm unidentified on another forum don't worry i cried when Buckenara kicked it after the siren, I sat thorugh 88 and watched us get smashed, as a kid I put up with only being able to beat the Saints and proudly ran around with number 2 on my back in the playground.
I just want a flag and can't see how the blokes I mentioned are going to get us there (I'm 31 and havn't seen one yet)

Gotta love a good alias. :thumbsu:

[bloodpumpsRnB]

Get rid of: Bode, Carroll, Holland, Jamar, CJ, Warnock, Wheatley.

Last warning: Yze, White, Wheatley, Robertson, Miller

Stick around long term: Bartram, Bate, Bell, Cheny, Davey, Dunn, Frawley, Grimes, Jones, Maric, McLean, Morton, Newton, Petterd, Rivers, Sylvia

[Pipefitter]

If we aint in the rebuilding process now, we certainly will be at the end of the season.

[surpstar]

yes, should have axed Daniher years ago.

demons list is very poor... bottom 4 finish for at least the next 2 seasons

[ohwhenthesaints]

I think we are in for a few very long years.

Last year we cleared a bit of dead wood (godfrey, brown, ward etc), all for no return. An inconsistent midfielder we pegged our hopes on for so long (johnstone) who in reality was great but no class around him.

Bruce and Green never reached the peaks we would have all hoped.

Now we sit with a list thats almost at 2 ends of the spectrum. Your neitzs, yzes, robbos, whites, etc that really are beyond putting in good contributions. And then we have a bunch of very very young and POTENTIALLY good players.

Our list is completely lopsided. I know it sucks but i think we are in for a long spell at the bottom of the ladder.


This is a rubbish thread pipesmoker. Bruce and green have been great since 2000, remembering Bruce was draft selection 388 or something like that, not sure on greeny. the above that are beyond contributing this season, please, you are a tossa.

[master bate]

yes, should have axed Daniher years ago.

demons list is very poor... bottom 4 finish for at least the next 2 seasons
Pretty confident that we won't, and we could have sacked Daniher after 03, but with finals in 04,05,06 we couldn't cut him. But he should have been encouraged to move more players on.

Winning flags is about getting enough talented players who are playing under a coach they understand and trust and establishing a hard working winning culture. Then getting lucky. Bailey seems to really understand the importance of having the players working hard for him and for each other and our young players look pretty good. I can really see us doing something from 2010 onwards but Neitz, Yze and White will be gone.

To answer were we too late to clean out are list my answer is no because you can't justify cleaning out a team making finals into you've won a flag and are heading down. We're down now and we need to have patience whilst we go back up, because I reckon one flag in 5 years beats 4 finals appearance and no flags. Although rebuilding doesn't mean bottom 4, ie Collingwood last year, Port in 06.

[Flashhh]

Agree Agree Agree.
Yes it was good to get rid of the dead wood of Ward, Godfrey etc. but we are still hanging onto too much.
With the list at in its current position there can either be more mediocore finishes (6th,7th,8th) or a few years down the bottom.
Yet if there was a big cleanout at the end of last year and we traded some more experienced players for value (like we did Johnstone) ie. Bruce, Green. We would have had a team capable of challenging for a flag in 4 or 5 years but we played it safe and just keep on keeping on rather than building a side that can actually do something, not just make the first or second week of the finals.

[demonfan9]

I can't believe you blokes want to get rid of the whole list. Jesus Christ, we're not Carlton or Hawthorn. Every list needs some experienced players. You can't just throw a bunch of kids to the wolves, it can be damaging to their development if they don't have any leadership during their early years.

We did the right thing by getting rid of Johnstone, Brown, Ward, Godfrey, Bizzell, Pickett and Ferguson. That's a hell of a lot of experience and quite a bit of dead wood too.

[RandB]

I think we are in for a few very long years.

Last year we cleared a bit of dead wood (godfrey, brown, ward etc), all for no return. An inconsistent midfielder we pegged our hopes on for so long (johnstone) who in reality was great but no class around him.

Bruce and Green never reached the peaks we would have all hoped.

Now we sit with a list thats almost at 2 ends of the spectrum. Your neitzs, yzes, robbos, whites, etc that really are beyond putting in good contributions. And then we have a bunch of very very young and POTENTIALLY good players.

Our list is completely lopsided. I know it sucks but i think we are in for a long spell at the bottom of the ladder.
This is entirely accurate in that there is a generation gap in our list. Whether our future is bleak or not is a matter of opinion at this stage but we will not make the finals for a while.

Besides some aspects of the previous coach and staff (who remember were under pressure to perform every year) the main reason we have this gap is due to our recruitment over the last 10 years... not just the last couple which have been ok.

Anybody suggesting we should have got rid of more senior players needs a labotomy. Bruce and Green are still essential players to our cause. The situation we are now in would probably have continued if Daniher were still coach and the change of coach means in many ways a fresh start. Unfortunately if we lost any more players we would have been throwing the rest of our younger squad to the wolves.

NOW, back to our generation gap. At some stage I will post the ages of our senior list and analyse but the reality is that we don't have enough players in the 22-28 bracket which is the prime time for a player. THIS IS DUE TO CRAPPY RECRUITMENT OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. Not enough of our recruits have been good enough to keep and that falls on Cameron and others. Personally, besides a few lively youngsters in the last couple of years I think Cameron has been very, very average over his tenior at MFC. Where the **** are our KPPs? we are just a list of round about players who could go here or could go there.

Make no mistake, I am not complaining about our chances this year based on our losses or being negative but I whole heartedly agree with the op about our list. TBH I am looking forward to the next few years and am quite positive about seeing a new group emerge. Luckily we still have some of the seniors still playing for leadership and sharing the load as the youngsters come on, but genuine players in their career prime are a rarity. This is why we need to keep players like Miller who are at least at the right age of a developed player who can contribute and I think Miller in the leadership group (not that I think such a group is necessary) is a good thing.

Additional: going by our draw I expect Bailey to play the best team possible for at least the first half of the season. Obviously we must take to season 2008 as if it were any other. However, as there is less travel in the second half of our season I am anticipating a more youth driven approach. If the season becomes a rite off then 2009 will be an early focus. Younger players struggle over a season when travel comes into it, they are undersized and that has a huge impact on their body over 22 weeks. The second half of the season will be the perfect platform for getting a structure in place for these younger players and we will probably have many injuries later in the year as well as our general conditioning is shite. New facilities with body conditioning and rehab can't come quick enough. It will be an interesting year.

[demonfan9]

33 ... David Neitz
31 ... James McDonald, Jeff White
30 ... Ben Holland, Adem Yze
29 ... Russell Robertson
28 ... Cameron Bruce, Matthew Whelan
27 ... Nathan Carroll, Brad Green, Paul Wheatley

24 ... Aaron Davey, Brad Miller, Mark Jamar, Brent Moloney, Matthew Warnock
23 ... Paul Johnson, Jared Rivers, Daniel Bell
22 ... Colin Sylvia, Chris Johnson, Brock McLean
21 ... John Meesen, Stefan Martin, Trent Zomer, Shane Valenti
20 ... Simon Buckley, Michael Newton, Lynden Dunn, Matthew Bate, Jace Bode, Nathan Jones, Clint Bartram, Colin Garland
19 ... Ricky Petterd, James Frawley, Austin Wonaeamirri, Isaac Weetra
18 ... Jack Grimes, Kyle Cheney, Jake Spencer, Cale Morton, Addam Maric, Tom McNamara

This is our list, with the age on the left (rounded up in some cases). As you can see, we don't have much quality from 24 to 27. Davey, Green and Moloney are good players, Wheatley and Carroll go alright, while Miller, Jamar and Warnock are battlers. This is an important age bracket, because blokes over 28 are generally starting to pass their peak (Neitz, White, Robertson, Yze).

So let's take a look at our drafting record.

2000 Draft
National: Scott Thompson, Daniel Breese, Ross Funcke, Mitchell Craig
Pre Season: James Cook, Steven Pitt, Simon Godfrey
Rookie: Troy Broadbridge

Thompson was our only high pick, the rest were +62, so no surprise that we didn't get much else. Thompson was eventually traded for Moloney. Keep in mind, that we lost 2nd and 3rd round picks in this draft for salary cap breaching.

2001 Draft
National: Luke Molan, Steven Armstrong, Aaron Rogers, Brad Miller
Pre Season: Nick Gill
Rookie: Darren Jolly
Trades: Craig Ellis, Clint Bizzell, Peter Vardy

Interesting look at this draft. Miller is the only bloke at the club left, and he's no superstar. Molan, Rogers, Armstrong and Gill all failed at our club, while Jolly was traded and Ellis, Bizzell and Vardy have all retired. Clearly, we were going for the quick fix back then, hence the reason for signing three experienced players. This saw us give up a couple of draft picks, as well as Simmonds.

Also, keep in mind that in the 1999 draft, we lost a 1st round pick for salary cap breaching.

So, here is the result of those two drafts:

Still At Club

Brad Miller

Traded

Scott Thompson (Brent Moloney)
Darren Jolly (Lynden Dunn)

The Rest

Daniel Breese
Ross Funcke
Mitchell Craig
James Cook
Steven Pitt
Simon Godfrey
Troy Broadbridge (RIP)
Luke Molan
Steven Armstrong
Aaron Rogers
Nick Gill
Craig Ellis
Clint Bizzell
Peter Vardy

Conclusions

- Salary cap breaches in 1999 and 2000 hurt us somewhat.
- At the time, we thought we were a shot at a flag and recruited accordingly.
- Our only remaining players that resulted from these two drafts are Brad Miller, Brent Moloney and Lynden Dunn.
- 2001 was a disappointing draft, considering our three picks inside 26 all failed.

[master bate]

33 ... David Neitz
31 ... James McDonald, Jeff White
30 ... Ben Holland, Adem Yze
29 ... Russell Robertson
28 ... Cameron Bruce, Matthew Whelan
27 ... Nathan Carroll, Brad Green, Paul Wheatley

24 ... Aaron Davey, Brad Miller, Mark Jamar, Brent Moloney, Matthew Warnock
23 ... Paul Johnson, Jared Rivers, Daniel Bell
22 ... Colin Sylvia, Chris Johnson, Brock McLean
21 ... John Meesen, Stefan Martin, Trent Zomer, Shane Valenti
20 ... Simon Buckley, Michael Newton, Lynden Dunn, Matthew Bate, Jace Bode, Nathan Jones, Clint Bartram, Colin Garland
19 ... Ricky Petterd, James Frawley, Austin Wonaeamirri, Isaac Weetra
18 ... Jack Grimes, Kyle Cheney, Jake Spencer, Cale Morton, Addam Maric, Tom McNamara

Look at the positives in this list, from the under 24's I can see all the players making it besides Miller, Jamar, PJ, Warnock, Chris Johnson and Jace Bode and maybe Jake Spencer but it's too early to judge. There is just so much of a good side there. By the way the club website has Zomer as 18 years old not 21. So how good can they be in 3 years time when they are aged between 21 and 27. Also in 3 years time Bruce and Green are the only ones I am confident about being with them. So whilst we have a generational gap now we wont be up the top of the ladder, but in 3 years we will be up the top and wont have too many old players dragging us down. I'm confident that Bailey is trying to build the club in that direction, keeping the handy old blokes just long enough, but not the dud 25+. Pretty much I reckon this could have been planned, he could have kept Godfrey, TJ and Ferguson but instead kept Yze and Holland.

[RandB]

33 ... David Neitz
31 ... James McDonald, Jeff White
30 ... Ben Holland, Adem Yze
29 ... Russell Robertson
28 ... Cameron Bruce, Matthew Whelan
27 ... Nathan Carroll, Brad Green, Paul Wheatley

24 ... Aaron Davey, Brad Miller, Mark Jamar, Brent Moloney, Matthew Warnock
23 ... Paul Johnson, Jared Rivers, Daniel Bell
22 ... Colin Sylvia, Chris Johnson, Brock McLean
21 ... John Meesen, Stefan Martin, Trent Zomer, Shane Valenti
20 ... Simon Buckley, Michael Newton, Lynden Dunn, Matthew Bate, Jace Bode, Nathan Jones, Clint Bartram, Colin Garland
19 ... Ricky Petterd, James Frawley, Austin Wonaeamirri, Isaac Weetra
18 ... Jack Grimes, Kyle Cheney, Jake Spencer, Cale Morton, Addam Maric, Tom McNamara

This is our list, with the age on the left (rounded up in some cases). As you can see, we don't have much quality from 24 to 27. Davey, Green and Moloney are good players, Wheatley and Carroll go alright, while Miller, Jamar and Warnock are battlers. This is an important age bracket, because blokes over 28 are generally starting to pass their peak (Neitz, White, Robertson, Yze).

So let's take a look at our drafting record.

2000 Draft
National: Scott Thompson, Daniel Breese, Ross Funcke, Mitchell Craig
Pre Season: James Cook, Steven Pitt, Simon Godfrey
Rookie: Troy Broadbridge

Thompson was our only high pick, the rest were +62, so no surprise that we didn't get much else. Thompson was eventually traded for Moloney. Keep in mind, that we lost 2nd and 3rd round picks in this draft for salary cap breaching.

2001 Draft
National: Luke Molan, Steven Armstrong, Aaron Rogers, Brad Miller
Pre Season: Nick Gill
Rookie: Darren Jolly
Trades: Craig Ellis, Clint Bizzell, Peter Vardy

Interesting look at this draft. Miller is the only bloke at the club left, and he's no superstar. Molan, Rogers, Armstrong and Gill all failed at our club, while Jolly was traded and Ellis, Bizzell and Vardy have all retired. Clearly, we were going for the quick fix back then, hence the reason for signing three experienced players. This saw us give up a couple of draft picks, as well as Simmonds.

Also, keep in mind that in the 1999 draft, we lost a 1st round pick for salary cap breaching.

So, here is the result of those two drafts:

Still At Club

Brad Miller

Traded

Scott Thompson (Brent Moloney)
Darren Jolly (Lynden Dunn)

The Rest

Daniel Breese
Ross Funcke
Mitchell Craig
James Cook
Steven Pitt
Simon Godfrey
Troy Broadbridge (RIP)
Luke Molan
Steven Armstrong
Aaron Rogers
Nick Gill
Craig Ellis
Clint Bizzell
Peter Vardy

Conclusions

- Salary cap breaches in 1999 and 2000 hurt us somewhat.
- At the time, we thought we were a shot at a flag and recruited accordingly.
- Our only remaining players that resulted from these two drafts are Brad Miller, Brent Moloney and Lynden Dunn.
- 2001 was a disappointing draft, considering our three picks inside 26 all failed.
That is an excellent compilation mate.:thumbsu:

Is that fair dinkum that we have no players 25 or 26 or is that just decent players?

The generation gap is quite a worry. When you take into account that some of those players in the 22-28 or more specifically 24-27 range are no good (Johnson, Jaymar & Warnock) we have more than a generation gap, we have a black hole. I hate to think the other baggage we recruited in the complete last 10 years. Rivers and White are the only two genuine players I can think of that we recruited who fill KPPs. The others (regardless of talent) have been utility type players.

You say that we had premierships in mind when taking on those senior players (which may be true) but even then they were nothing special. Picket was a hardman but only had 1 season left in him. Vardy was useful at times but that was about it and Bizzell was admirable in defence but was outdone in height. Ellis was a gamble that did not come off. These guys were just too old to take on except for Bizzell who did play his heart out for the Dees. In my mind most of these players would have been kept by their original clubs if they were so great. Ben Holland was not a huge loss for the Tiges although he has been servicable for us on occasion in attack and defence but his limits are obvious.

The most obvious factor to me from all of this is that we have not tried hard enough to fix problems in our side. Too much recruiting was based on potential and perhaps this kid can go here or there etc. We needed to go out and get genuine defenders but were always happy to get round-about defenders.

Because we were competitive over the last 10 years we have also paid a bit of a price with draft picks, see Hawthorn and Carlton who have reaped the rewards.

As long as the club gives the coach a licence to build a team and accepts short term pain for long term gain that is all we can ask for. The 22 and under range is promising but we need KPPs and must recruit decent new players every year (ala West Coast) to ensure we have multiple years of success in the future.

[Deenamite]

2000 and 2001 drafts were utter failures. That's the only way of putting it. Good evaulation demonfan. :thumbsu: