View Full Version : An irritating part to our forward line.
dipper86
3 Mar 2008, 20:50
Time and time again last year i would see our forwards be uncompetative against the long ball into the forward 50, they would just stay stay down and let there defenders take an uncontested mark.
Fast forward to 2008 and what do you know, they are doing the same thing, countless times the Adelaide defenders took uncontested marks with not even a yelp from our forwards.
Is it asking to much to see a contest from our forwards, I'm sick of It. :thumbsd:
It's a little early to tell, I think mate!
But I was wondering if we were experimenting with any forwards structures during the Nab cup? - because I didn't see any organisation in our forward line in any of our games. Possibly one reason why our forwards have kind of struggled thus far.
I'm not sure!
Just inexperience from the kickers and the forwards. Give them time. Most very very efficient forward lines have experienced players, we have fine young players who will get more consistent with more experience.
cradle of filth
3 Mar 2008, 21:44
Totally agree, half the time we loose it's because there is no one presenting at half-forward. I just dont understand why this is never addressed. I understand we don't have a Ryan O'keefe type player to roam the half-forward line, but we could at least try someone. Lance Franklin can get up the ground a bit and guys like Stuey Dew and Cyril Rioli are capable.
Another thing, i lost count how many times i saw Roughead in the goal square next to 3 Adelaide defenders in the first half. What's going on with that? Only an incredible pass by Hodge allowed Roughead to mark and alot of that was luck really.
I know it pre-season and they are trying new things, but sometimes it's just never going to work.
This is basically the problem I was talking about in the Campbell as a forward thread. I hope that SN is right and the problem is due to not having all our forwards on the park together (and maybe trying a few things out).
I don't know if we need Willo, Roughie, Boyle and Buddy all staying in the 50.
I also hope that Morton continues to come on. If he has a tank anything like Clarke he could really help out given his decent size.
Leather Poisoning
3 Mar 2008, 22:00
Not sure if its the midfield, the forward setup, the lack of a half forward option, but the fact of the matter is:
If we make our inside 50s more effective we can win the premiership this year.
Our defense is tight.
We can win enough contested ball.
We have 14 blokes that are masters at the stoppage
Our forwards are quality.
We need to find a way to make more of our inside 50s turn into scoring shots.
I really think Willo will help a lot here - whether he frees franklin up for a half-forward role, I'm not sure how the mechanics of it will work.
Prepare yourself fellas - we're not far off....
Not sure if its the midfield, the forward setup, the lack of a half forward option, but the fact of the matter is:
If we make our inside 50s more effective we can win the premiership this year.
Our defense is tight.
We can win enough contested ball.
We have 14 blokes that are masters at the stoppage
Our forwards are quality.
We need to find a way to make more of our inside 50s turn into scoring shots.
I really think Willo will help a lot here - whether he frees franklin up for a half-forward role, I'm not sure how the mechanics of it will work.
Prepare yourself fellas - we're not far off....
Yes totally agree on all counts... BUT be patient with our boys because allot of them (forwards that is) are still just boys and have only just cracked the 50 games.
Buddy 58
Roughy 56
Boyler 25
Williams 76
Lewis (resting forward) 63
and now no Dicko to lead and organise the forwards on field.
So be patient fellas
Leather Poisoning
3 Mar 2008, 22:28
Yes totally agree on all counts... BUT be patient with our boys because allot of them (forwards that is) are still just boys and have only just cracked the 50 games.
Buddy 58
Roughy 56
Boyler 25
Williams 76
Lewis (resting forward) 63
and now no Dicko to lead and organise the forwards on field.
So be patient fellas
I'm patient but I've also got a LOT of faith in these boys. As you say they're inexperienced, but shit they've done well!
dipper86
3 Mar 2008, 22:50
It's a little early to tell, I think mate!
But I was wondering if we were experimenting with any forwards structures during the Nab cup? - because I didn't see any organisation in our forward line in any of our games. Possibly one reason why our forwards have kind of struggled thus far.
I'm not sure!
A little bit early mate! I'm not talking about structures or performance, I'm talking about the fundamentals, providing a contest, if you're behind or out of position" punch the ****n thing" try to get the ball to ground, countless times i see our forwards watching the defender mark the ball uncontested...... make the defender earn it.
Our forwards can't expect to have the ball kicked to them lace out hitting them on the chest every time, they must provide a contest in the air. We have now drafted crumbers (Rioli,Stokes) for the sole reason for when the ball does hit the ground they can apply pressure or sneak a goal. Letting the defender mark the ball uncontested nullifies what we drafted these players for.
Forget the delievery, the irrating part of our forward line IMO is how much time the opposition has to get the ball out of our forward line compared to us. I guess it'll change now that we've got some quality crummers, but Buddy is our only forward that has the capacity to chase down defenders coming out of our forward line
Hodge2Franklin
4 Mar 2008, 00:29
There is no real easy answer that I can see either. Opposition teams have learnt that if they leave some guys back they can inevitably have a 4 vs 7 situation.
Somehow we need to learn to punish that advantage somehow.
Logic says that if you have 3 extra guys around the middle of the ground one or two can run hard and present an option at about 40.
I watched McLeod do this on the weekend and he kicked a goal. If some of those 3 extra guys bolted into a hole a couple of times a game we would either get some extra goals, or force them to bring those guys up the ground.
We really need to get some more goals out of those guys I think, but it is easier said than done.
McGlynn was very good at this.
I think we need some more consistant goal scoring midfields to beat defenders in situation like this. Hodge is probably our only o.k. midfield scoring option.
lethalselbow
4 Mar 2008, 06:59
Totally agree, half the time we loose it's because there is no one presenting at half-forward. I just dont understand why this is never addressed. I understand we don't have a Ryan O'keefe type player to roam the half-forward line, but we could at least try someone. Lance Franklin can get up the ground a bit and guys like Stuey Dew and Cyril Rioli are capable.
Another thing, i lost count how many times i saw Roughead in the goal square next to 3 Adelaide defenders in the first half. What's going on with that? Only an incredible pass by Hodge allowed Roughead to mark and alot of that was luck really.
I know it pre-season and they are trying new things, but sometimes it's just never going to work.
A vacant half-forward line seems to happen constantly. It forces the defenders to run and carry the ball up field and allows the forwards to run into heaps of space. It also annoys the crap out of me.
I'm guessing it's part of the game plan. Kind of a four-man Pagan's paddock. Midfielders and defenders running and carrying the ball till their close enough to unleash a kick to forwards leading towards them from the goal square. Problem is - it only seems to work against certain sides. Close checking / defensive sides like Adelaide & Sydney do well against us.
I like the idea of a CHF in all situations, as you say, as it provides the extra option of kicking long out of defence if the run/handball/run/handball/... situation is getting too hot.
All that said, I have complete faith in Clarkson and reckon he knows exactly what he's doing in all departments. :thumbsu:
Mitchell Madness
4 Mar 2008, 07:09
the only times they stay down is when it was 3 or 4 players onto 1. they would be all around our guy in a tight pack, and under the "new" rules, you cannot place a hand on the player in the contest, meaning marking in the situation, or even makign a contest of it is extremely difficult.
Willo will play up forward as the leading man, and should get a heap of frees for in the back (i hope)
An interesting part of this debate relates to the opposition dropping players back into our fwd line.
On many occasions we bomb long and hope.
Until we can get some long range goal scoring options oppostion sides will flood deep on Buddy.
The simplest answer is that teams adopt this tactic because they know guys like Mitchell and Sewell aren't going to burn them from outside fifty.
What tends to happen is that teams rotate off their opponents so that they have players deep and pay less atention to the midfield.
Other than Crawf we haven't got a hard running ball carrier who can break the lines and kick a long running goal.
Sure Bateman and Young tick two of the boxes but fail badly in the conversion stakes.
Once we have players breaking the lines and being a scoring threat, the opposition have to come to them, thus opening up the fwd line.
I'm hoping that Dew, Ellis and Birchell will add to the long range options this season.
In it's simplest form if you want to flood against us we'll bomb it over your head and through the goals.
Just a final thought
Up until now when the pressures on, players just go to Buddy when they should be opening up their vision and looking for other options.
Intoduce a leading Willo into the equation and you have a very different dynamic.
lethalselbow
4 Mar 2008, 07:41
Once we have players breaking the lines and being a scoring threat, the opposition have to come to them, thus opening up the fwd line.
I'm hoping that Dew, Ellis and Birchell will add to the long range options this season.
I was just going to post along similar lines. :thumbsu: Add Guerra to that list too and you've got a lot of options from outside 50m.
I reckon we could have something similar to what Port did in their Premiership year - with lots of options outside of 50m. I'm sure Clarko is working towards this. :)
MinerBoy
4 Mar 2008, 08:01
Not sure if its the midfield, the forward setup, the lack of a half forward option, but the fact of the matter is:
If we make our inside 50s more effective we can win the premiership this year.
Our defense is tight.
We can win enough contested ball.
We have 14 blokes that are masters at the stoppage
Our forwards are quality.
We need to find a way to make more of our inside 50s turn into scoring shots.
I really think Willo will help a lot here - whether he frees franklin up for a half-forward role, I'm not sure how the mechanics of it will work.
Prepare yourself fellas - we're not far off....
Hit the nail on the head. Our biggest weakness is our inefficiency going forward and our wastefulness when shooting on goal. Sort these two things out and we become VERY VERY HARD TO BEAT.
Hawkers Hero
4 Mar 2008, 10:01
From what ive heard, Thorp looks like he will be the player to come in and play that lead up marking forward role ala Reiwoldt and Cloke.
If that is the case, then it could be that Clarko is just getting the rest of the forward set up right in advance of that extra option.
Im sure im not the only one that is screaming at the TV when Birchall, Ellis, Ladson etc have the ball at defensive 50 and there isnt a single player between them and the 4 man forward line.
As a note, Thorp was looking really fit at the family day - anyone know how far away he is?
KingRich
4 Mar 2008, 10:53
Adelaide had a lot of numbers back as a general rule on the weekend. Very difficult to compete when you are outnumbered.
I agree that at times this can be a frustrating area though and we are guilty of it at times. I think our midfielders are also a little guilty of bombing away at times though.
One thing I wish Hawk fans would understand is that when we play a 4 man forward line the opposition are likely to have 2 free men. THIS IS NOT FLOODING SO STOP ACCUSING THE OPPOSITION OF DOING IT.
hahahahah settle mate
But your wrong
We have four fowards, They have 4 defenders.. plus 2 extra guys that arent playing on their man.
= Flood.
lethalselbow
4 Mar 2008, 17:18
Some sides sucker for the 4-man setup. Other sides eat it for breakfast.
hahahahah settle mate
But your wrong
We have four fowards, They have 4 defenders.. plus 2 extra guys that arent playing on their man.
= Flood.
No mate Cynic is right. When we play 4 forwards, we have 2 extra wingers. The only team not to man them up over last season were St.Kilda, everyone else mans up our two forward flanks that start on the wings. The Saints had three guys loose in our defence! Against the crows we didnt play the box set up. They pushed numbers back because we didnt move the ball fast enough!
If you break the lines, force over laps, you are going to have the numbers. We stop started with our kicking and they had time to get players back, and don't think its only the crows who do this Hawthorn did it all last year. We pushed numbers back, forced the turn over and inturn owned the corridor with linking hand balls.
Leather Poisoning
4 Mar 2008, 17:36
hahahahah settle mate
But your wrong
We have four fowards, They have 4 defenders.. plus 2 extra guys that arent playing on their man.
= Flood.
They get very touchy when you call it flooding.
They want you to call it 'zoning' because they don't have any players in incorrect positions.
Whatever you call it, we have to learn to counter it. The semi-final was a great example of playing into the opposition's hands. We shoulda pumped those no-namers.