View Full Version : The Shirley v Maric/Team Balance/Where to play Tippet issue
James_37
18 Apr 2008, 02:59
Regarding the Shirley over Maric issue, there's a lot thats been said regarding balance, yes there is an issue regarding a height balance, but would just like to pose some thoughts on positional balance as well. Shirley is a defensive midfielder, he isn't a prime ball mover, he isn't overly quick or tall, whilst he has been a great servant to the club, he is a tagger. Do we need a tagger though, we have Doughty in the best form of his career playing that role, then we have VB, who whilst trying to become an attacking midfielder, is probably more suited to the defensive role. The question also is, if Doughty and VB fail, is Shirley with his current form going to do any better.
Now I just had a look at a few stats and whilst they arn't the be all and end all, they tell a little story. Currently, in our top 5 goal kickers for the year, the tallest is Vince at 185cm (according to AdelaideNow). Now granted the next 3 are the 3 talls who have spent time up forward this year, Tippet with 4 goals, Mcgregor with 4 and Stevens with 3, now thats 11 goals from KPFs this year. In relative terms, those 3 have contributed 18% of our goals, the majority of other clubs have a least one tall forward who has contributed easily more than or close to this amount (except for Melbourne (16th), WC (15th) and Port(14th)). The thing is though, that Mcgregor is our only constant forward, Stevens has spent time back and Tippet spends half his 74% of the game time in the ruck or commuting between these.
Now its great that the smaller players have picked up the slack with regards to kicking the goals, but as was shown on the weekend, when we're under a bit of pressure or our delivery into the forward line isn't perfect, our forward system goes to shit. This is where a good tall or 2 up forward comes in handy, one who can crash the packs, draw any loose opposition defenders etc. Now Mcgregor and Stevens can't do this, it is the opinion of many I believe on this board, that Tippet can do this, he has a presence up forward that will create an element of panic in opposition defences. Whilst these blokes don't necessarily kick the goals themselves, they take the pressure of other forwards, like Goodwin, Burton, Mcgregor. Now Tippet is struggling to do this rotating between ruck, forward and the bench and as a bloke with 4 AFL games now, we can't expect him to.
But if Tippet were to play a full game up forward, eg the St. Kilda match, he could spend more time on the ground and give us a more permanent tall target up forward, which Mcgregor and Stevens fail to do. So if we were to have Tippet up forward more often, when the ball comes in long and high to the hotspot as it often does, we won't be relying on Burton to take mark of the year just to score a goal.
The introduction of Maric into the side would allow this to happen. The main argument against this is that we would be too tall, well, I'm not so certain. Currently, we have one of our 3 key forwards splitting his time between ruck and full forward and another spends a fair bit of time in defence, so I would question whether we would be too tall, if we are constantly moving 2 of our key forwards to fulfill other roles, leaving us with 1 constant tall forward and its not as if he's setting the world on fire. Then on the bench we have Shirley, an out of form tagger, with 2 others probably ahead of him for this role, who isn't hurting teams with devastating run or drive. How much is it really going to hurt us to take him out of the side. Whilst Tippet has been servicable in the ruck, he isn't doing anything Maric couldn't do and IMO, switching between ruck and forward is a tough job when its your full time role, surely he could give a better account for himself if he could focus on one.
Now many have criticised Drummond and a couple of others for blowing their top off at Maric's non-selection and have claimed the arguments of we'll be too tall and we need Shirley's tough body. Really, though, is that extra runner THAT important when we managed to beat Port with a 1 man bench for over half a match only 2 weeks ago, Port who are filled with strong, fast runners. Also, if you look in the past 3 years, we have quite often gone into matches with 3-4 KPFs, 2 ruckman and 3-4 KPDs(probably no more than 9 though). Whilst I'm no "expert" and I'm not the coach I'm sure they know what they are doing, but that doesn't mean they are always right.
The main problem is, we've seen what Tippet can do when given a full game up forward, we thought all our Christmas's had come at once after the NAB cup GF. But then Craig decides to torment us, torture us by only giving us little glimpses of what this bloke can do. However, whilst we can see the answer and a possible opening to implement it ie Maric starting to recapture form, Shirley with aparently none, Craig and Co. continue with their conservative ways.
Drummond
18 Apr 2008, 03:12
Great post mate. :thumbsu:
Watching the Saints game had me really excited about the prospect of having Tippett playing in the forward line and finally having the emergence of a key forward capable of taking a contested mark. Prior to this season, I of all people was probably the biggest supporter of playing Tippett in the ruck as I hadn’t seen any signs of him becoming the gun forward many were anticipating. But it’s already become extremely evident that first and foremost he IS a key forward and that’s where he will do the most damage. Sure he’s more than capable in the ruck and his ruckwork was very impressive against the Hawks last week, but by using him as a ruckman and forward we’re wasting his talents.
You bring in Maric and let Tippett play permanently up forward and you watch him shine. He’s 200cm, quick, athletic and can take a great mark, you tell me how many defenders can handle that? Glass, arguably the competitions best defender, was struggling against him when they went head-to-head in Round 2. Kurt kicked two goals in the 30 odd minutes they spent up against one another. He causes some serious headaches for opposition defenders and coaches as quite simply, he’s one heck of a tough match-up. Now I have no idea why Maric is out of favour and think it’s hindering the potential of this team. Bring in Maric, divide the ruck duties between he and Griffin and let Tippett play an entire game up forward. Whenever he’s up there he looks threatening; he’s taken a heap of contested marks already this season and in fact against the Hawks he only took two marks, both of which were contested. Please Neil, recall Maric and leave Tippett up forward and let him do what he does best!
Yeah, i hate to agree with Drummond because he winges like an old woman but I'm with him on this one. I think we look a LOT better with Tippet up forward and should be aiming to keep him up there as long as possible.
jenny61_99
18 Apr 2008, 08:29
I think it has more to do with bodies than with structure... Craigy played Griffin for the first half of the season last year and Maric for the second. Reckon he might be doing the same this year too?
TheLeftFist8
18 Apr 2008, 08:56
The introduction of Maric into the side would allow this to happen. The main argument against this is that we would be too tall, well, I'm not so certain.
Then on the bench we have Shirley, an out of form tagger, with 2 others probably ahead of him for this role, who isn't hurting teams with devastating run or drive. How much is it really going to hurt us to take him out of the side.
Really, though, is that extra runner THAT important when we managed to beat Port with a 1 man bench for over half a match only 2 weeks ago, Port who are filled with strong, fast runners. Also, if you look in the past 3 years, we have quite often gone into matches with 3-4 KPFs, 2 ruckman and 3-4 KPDs(probably no more than 9 though). Whilst I'm no "expert" and I'm not the coach I'm sure they know what they are doing, but that doesn't mean they are always right.
Great post but just a couple comments on the above...
My argument is not that we would be too tall but that with our current personnel, our forward line would be too slow and cumbersome. I know Tippett is athletic but he is still 201cm and will struggle to catch rebounding runners, though he does put some pressure on. Add McGregor and there is limited overall pressure given we are often outnumbered 5 to 6 at best up there anyway. As soon as more personnel are available, especially Gill or Moran, then i am all for Tippett spending most of his time up forward and bringing in the extra tall.
Re Shirley, he will probably pull our a good game eventually and his supporters will say 'i told you so', like the end of last year. But for a guy like him, he has to be at his best all year to demand a spot. When he isn't playing well, he is a liability. i would've had no qualms bringing in Danger for Shirley this week. His ability to use his hardened body is non-existant when he cannot chase or make the contest, so why bother. at least Dangerfield would have pressured the ball-carrier or sprinted away with the ball himself. I'd rather inexperience than an out-of-form Shirley.
But why not drop Shirley for Maric? I'm torn on this given Shirley is practically a non-event this season, so why not effectively play one down if they wont play 2 debutants? Yes, we'd be top heavy but it would give other options. Generally though, we escaped the Port game with less runners but i wouldn't like to try it for a full game against a decent side.
The key to all these issues is simply getting Moran, Gill and then Hentschel off the injury list so we can have options to balance the side better (along with depth in midfield with Reilly, Knights and then Massie in defence also).
James_37
18 Apr 2008, 10:14
Great post but just a couple comments on the above...
My argument is not that we would be too tall but that with our current personnel, our forward line would be too slow and cumbersome. I know Tippett is athletic but he is still 201cm and will struggle to catch rebounding runners, though he does put some pressure on. Add McGregor and there is limited overall pressure given we are often outnumbered 5 to 6 at best up there anyway. As soon as more personnel are available, especially Gill or Moran, then i am all for Tippett spending most of his time up forward and bringing in the extra tall.
Re Shirley, he will probably pull our a good game eventually and his supporters will say 'i told you so', like the end of last year. But for a guy like him, he has to be at his best all year to demand a spot. When he isn't playing well, he is a liability. i would've had no qualms bringing in Danger for Shirley this week. His ability to use his hardened body is non-existant when he cannot chase or make the contest, so why bother. at least Dangerfield would have pressured the ball-carrier or sprinted away with the ball himself. I'd rather inexperience than an out-of-form Shirley.
But why not drop Shirley for Maric? I'm torn on this given Shirley is practically a non-event this season, so why not effectively play one down if they wont play 2 debutants? Yes, we'd be top heavy but it would give other options. Generally though, we escaped the Port game with less runners but i wouldn't like to try it for a full game against a decent side.
The key to all these issues is simply getting Moran, Gill and then Hentschel off the injury list so we can have options to balance the side better (along with depth in midfield with Reilly, Knights and then Massie in defence also).
You make some good points there and there is definitely no easy answer to the problem, as for not being able to play Tippet and Mcgregor together, well, I believe we're doing it stages already throughout the match when Tippet goes forward. Now whilst this may affect our defensive pressure capabilities, well we're not doing great here anyway and unless we start to man up on that loose defender we're going to be done no matter whether we've got a forward line of Mcgregors or a forward line of Mcleods.
I do hope that when Moran, Gill and Hentschel return we can give Tippet more time up forward because IMO, he's wasted in the ruck, yes, I'd say leave him there if he was carving it up, but at the moment, Maric would probably do just as well as him.
Jenny, your theory would make sense if Maric wasn't basically out with an 8 week injury and subsequent loss of form in the first half of the year last year. Griffin would have been 4th in line to the ruck role if it weren't for injuries to Maric and Meesen and whilst he's shown that he is infact the better ruckman, before last year he'd mainly been playing ressies for Centrals. So whilst it did pan out that way last year, it would not have been the way it was planned and I don't think he'd plan to do the same here.
Brenton Davy
18 Apr 2008, 10:19
Great post mate. :thumbsu:
Watching the Saints game had me really excited about the prospect of having Tippett playing in the forward line and finally having the emergence of a key forward capable of taking a contested mark. Prior to this season, I of all people was probably the biggest supporter of playing Tippett in the ruck as I hadn’t seen any signs of him becoming the gun forward many were anticipating. But it’s already become extremely evident that first and foremost he IS a key forward and that’s where he will do the most damage. Sure he’s more than capable in the ruck and his ruckwork was very impressive against the Hawks last week, but by using him as a ruckman and forward we’re wasting his talents.
You bring in Maric and let Tippett play permanently up forward and you watch him shine. He’s 200cm, quick, athletic and can take a great mark, you tell me how many defenders can handle that? Glass, arguably the competitions best defender, was struggling against him when they went head-to-head in Round 2. Kurt kicked two goals in the 30 odd minutes they spent up against one another. He causes some serious headaches for opposition defenders and coaches as quite simply, he’s one heck of a tough match-up. Now I have no idea why Maric is out of favour and think it’s hindering the potential of this team. Bring in Maric, divide the ruck duties between he and Griffin and let Tippett play an entire game up forward. Whenever he’s up there he looks threatening; he’s taken a heap of contested marks already this season and in fact against the Hawks he only took two marks, both of which were contested. Please Neil, recall Maric and leave Tippett up forward and let him do what he does best!
As you would by now be aware, I don't necessarily agree with Drummond on this point, but at least THIS is how to carry on a debate on the subject.
I'm in the camp which thinks that we're a bit overburdened with talls to begin with. In this weeks team we have bona fide talls in Rutten, Bock, Basset, McGregor, Stevens, Griffin and Tippett along with blokes who are playing as talls in our current structure in Burton and Goodwin.
This means to me that should we bring in another tall for a running player it will mean that for team balance reasons Burton and Goodwin would have to play more as midfielders. As they have been our most succesful forwards to date I believe that this is far more detrimental then allowing Tippett free reign in the forward line.
I want to see Tippett spend more time in the forward line as anyone else, but not if it's detrimental to Adelaide's chances of winning a game. Our gameplan requires above all things flexibility and players capable of running all day, this is why achieving a balance of giants and runners is imperative.
Also, something that doesn't seem to be considered here that much, to some extent I think Tippett might be having an easier time adjusting to AFL standard forward lines by starting in the Ruck and then moving forward, this allows some confusion between defenders as who is to man up on him and every now and then he loses his man in traffic. Whereas if he spent a whole game up forward odds are the Fletchers, Scarletts and Glass's of the world would be able to follow him around all day and generally give him a hard time which would be further detrimental to Adelaide's chances of winning the game.
Carl Spackler
18 Apr 2008, 12:15
What was Maric's preseason cup form like? The only game I really saw from start to finish was the St Kilda grand final and he was poor. There were a few times where he didn't make the effort to get to an aerial contest, times when he just had to provide a contest and cause a spill and didn't, and he generally failed to impose himself physically on the game.
Is he paying the price Jericho vs Geelong-style for his performance in this match?
Southerntakeover
18 Apr 2008, 12:28
Regarding the Shirley over Maric issue, there's a lot thats been said regarding balance, yes there is an issue regarding a height balance, but would just like to pose some thoughts on positional balance as well. Shirley is a defensive midfielder, he isn't a prime ball mover, he isn't overly quick or tall, whilst he has been a great servant to the club, he is a tagger. Do we need a tagger though, we have Doughty in the best form of his career playing that role, then we have VB, who whilst trying to become an attacking midfielder, is probably more suited to the defensive role. The question also is, if Doughty and VB fail, is Shirley with his current form going to do any better.
Now I just had a look at a few stats and whilst they arn't the be all and end all, they tell a little story. Currently, in our top 5 goal kickers for the year, the tallest is Vince at 185cm (according to AdelaideNow). Now granted the next 3 are the 3 talls who have spent time up forward this year, Tippet with 4 goals, Mcgregor with 4 and Stevens with 3, now thats 11 goals from KPFs this year. In relative terms, those 3 have contributed 18% of our goals, the majority of other clubs have a least one tall forward who has contributed easily more than or close to this amount (except for Melbourne (16th), WC (15th) and Port(14th)). The thing is though, that Mcgregor is our only constant forward, Stevens has spent time back and Tippet spends half his 74% of the game time in the ruck or commuting between these.
Now its great that the smaller players have picked up the slack with regards to kicking the goals, but as was shown on the weekend, when we're under a bit of pressure or our delivery into the forward line isn't perfect, our forward system goes to shit. This is where a good tall or 2 up forward comes in handy, one who can crash the packs, draw any loose opposition defenders etc. Now Mcgregor and Stevens can't do this, it is the opinion of many I believe on this board, that Tippet can do this, he has a presence up forward that will create an element of panic in opposition defences. Whilst these blokes don't necessarily kick the goals themselves, they take the pressure of other forwards, like Goodwin, Burton, Mcgregor. Now Tippet is struggling to do this rotating between ruck, forward and the bench and as a bloke with 4 AFL games now, we can't expect him to.
But if Tippet were to play a full game up forward, eg the St. Kilda match, he could spend more time on the ground and give us a more permanent tall target up forward, which Mcgregor and Stevens fail to do. So if we were to have Tippet up forward more often, when the ball comes in long and high to the hotspot as it often does, we won't be relying on Burton to take mark of the year just to score a goal.
The introduction of Maric into the side would allow this to happen. The main argument against this is that we would be too tall, well, I'm not so certain. Currently, we have one of our 3 key forwards splitting his time between ruck and full forward and another spends a fair bit of time in defence, so I would question whether we would be too tall, if we are constantly moving 2 of our key forwards to fulfill other roles, leaving us with 1 constant tall forward and its not as if he's setting the world on fire. Then on the bench we have Shirley, an out of form tagger, with 2 others probably ahead of him for this role, who isn't hurting teams with devastating run or drive. How much is it really going to hurt us to take him out of the side. Whilst Tippet has been servicable in the ruck, he isn't doing anything Maric couldn't do and IMO, switching between ruck and forward is a tough job when its your full time role, surely he could give a better account for himself if he could focus on one.
Now many have criticised Drummond and a couple of others for blowing their top off at Maric's non-selection and have claimed the arguments of we'll be too tall and we need Shirley's tough body. Really, though, is that extra runner THAT important when we managed to beat Port with a 1 man bench for over half a match only 2 weeks ago, Port who are filled with strong, fast runners. Also, if you look in the past 3 years, we have quite often gone into matches with 3-4 KPFs, 2 ruckman and 3-4 KPDs(probably no more than 9 though). Whilst I'm no "expert" and I'm not the coach I'm sure they know what they are doing, but that doesn't mean they are always right.
The main problem is, we've seen what Tippet can do when given a full game up forward, we thought all our Christmas's had come at once after the NAB cup GF. But then Craig decides to torment us, torture us by only giving us little glimpses of what this bloke can do. However, whilst we can see the answer and a possible opening to implement it ie Maric starting to recapture form, Shirley with aparently none, Craig and Co. continue with their conservative ways.
I dont place much value on this analysis im afraid.
Firstly, why the obsession on height? Sure, most clubs have one forward kick a large % of ther goals, but why do they have to be tall? Its overly simplistic to rely on height in terms of what role a player plays up forward. Goodwin may not be tall, but he certainly isnt playing a crumbing role. His goals have come from his exceptionally good overhead marking, traditionally viewed as a tall forwards role.
Secondly, whilst i would love to see Tippett playing up forwards, i can understand exactly why Maric has been left to sit for a while. He had the world at his feet at the start of the preseason, a starting ruckmans job in the AFL waiting for him, all he had to do was prove himself the equal or better of Griffin in the MMC. The results were relatively lackluster. Maric has to demonstrate a hunger to play AFL, or he'll be added to the list of also rans who could have been. Hes burned the SANFL the last two weeks (admittedly, one was against South and should be taken with a grain of salt. Just look at who rucked that game for them), and if he continues to do this for a month or so he'll demand selection and prove he has the fire inside. He has alot still to prove at the moment, in terms of desire.
As far as your showdown comment, i take that as the opposite. We barely hung onto that game, with a team that was dead on its legs in the fourth, and it cost us the next week. I fully believe if we were carrying an extra tall, we would have lost that game due to not having the legs to kick away at the start of the last. IMO carrying the extra running player won us this game.
Dandy_GO
18 Apr 2008, 12:32
What was Maric's preseason cup form like? The only game I really saw from start to finish was the St Kilda grand final and he was poor. There were a few times where he didn't make the effort to get to an aerial contest, times when he just had to provide a contest and cause a spill and didn't, and he generally failed to impose himself physically on the game.
Is he paying the price Jericho vs Geelong-style for his performance in this match?
Looked okay against Collingwood, pretty poor against Freo, Was very good against Hawthorn (in the 1/2 that he was on the ground), and was shit against St Kilda.
We have had two ruckmen coming off the bench for the crows for many a season, and now those of us calling for Maric inclusion are being told we would be making the team top heavy. We wish to simply replace Hudson (last season) with Maric (this season). Just because our FF is the monster in Tippett as compared to Welsh, I thought this would be a good thing! As many of us had stated in the past, Welsh was fighting out of his division as our main focal point, and would of been a better 2nd stringer.
I think Tippett is being asked to replace the two Bulldog$ knobs, on a part-time basis. Replace Welsh for a Half and Hudson the other.
You need a big FF, so when no options are presented (Goodwin and Burton on leads), you bomb it quickly into the goal square to your man mountain, and if he doesn't mark it, worse case scenario is ball drops down where young Jacky is stalking. Straight out the play book - Chapter 1 - Basics.
We have had two ruckmen coming off the bench for the crows for many a season, and now those of us calling for Maric inclusion are being told we would be making the team top heavy. We wish to simply replace Hudson (last season) with Maric (this season). Just because our FF is the monster in Tippett as compared to Welsh, I thought this would be a good thing! As many of us had stated in the past, Welsh was fighting out of his division as our main focal point, and would of been a better 2nd stringer.
I think Tippett is being asked to replace the two Bulldog$ knobs, on a part-time basis. Replace Welsh for a Half and Hudson the other.
You need a big FF, so when no options are presented (Goodwin and Burton on leads), you bomb it quickly into the goal square to your man mountain, and if he doesn't mark it, worse case scenario is ball drops down where young Jacky is stalking. Straight out the play book - Chapter 1 - Basics.
Nope, Goodwin and Burton are fufilling the Welsh role ...
Lets look at last years starting 22:
FB: Basset Rutten Johncock
HB: Mcleod Stevens Mattner
C: Reilly Goodwin Knights
HF: Burton Bock Edwards
FF: McGregor Welsh Douglas
1R: Hudson Shirley Thompson
Int: Van Berlo Torney Massie Griffin
This pretty much to me indicates that Stevens and Bock have swapped, Welsh has swapped with Burton with Vince taking that empty spot. Griffin going to Hudson's first ruck role with Tippett doing Griffin's first ruck and some time at forward role ...
This pretty much to me indicates that Stevens and Bock have swapped, Welsh has swapped with Burton with Vince taking that empty spot. Griffin going to Hudson's first ruck role with Tippett doing Griffin's first ruck and some time at forward role ...
Well then, taking what you have said on face value, and if I agreed (but I don't) that bringing in Maric would make us too top heavy. If Stevens, McGregor, and Tippett is one tall too many in the forward line, then I say drop McGregor and have Maric on the bench.
If Stevens, McGregor, and Tippett is one tall too many in the forward line, then I say drop McGregor and have Maric on the bench.
If we were 0 - 4 or if it's late in the season and we can't make the finals I'd agree wholeheartedly.
However I strongly feel that the best way to develop young players is to make it clear that the teams object is to win every game it plays and right now that means McGregor plays.
If McGregor was playing yet the team was struggling and he presumably wasn't doing very well hence the team struggling then bringing in Maric to allow Tippett to be a permanent forward would be a good plan IMHO.
cro_Magnum
18 Apr 2008, 13:18
I'm in the camp which thinks that we're a bit overburdened with talls to begin with. In this weeks team we have bona fide talls in Rutten, Bock, Basset, McGregor, Stevens, Griffin and Tippett along with blokes who are playing as talls in our current structure in Burton and Goodwin.
I agree we'd be too tall but I'd bring in Maric and replace McGregor with Tippett. Ken's lack of mobility and below waist level play is getting to be too much of a liability for us, not to mention the chronic falling over problem.
Not that I think Shirley shouldn't be replaced as he's only marginally quicker than Ken this year.
I'm in the camp which thinks that we're a bit overburdened with talls to begin with. In this weeks team we have bona fide talls in Rutten, Bock, Basset, McGregor, Stevens, Griffin and Tippett along with blokes who are playing as talls in our current structure in Burton and Goodwin.
Just as a side, the memorable 2005 semi against Port, when IMO Crow's structure was best balanced and performed it has ever been in past 5 years.
We had Rutten, Bock, Bassett, McGregor (2 goals), Perrie (3 goals), Hentschel (3 goals), Biglands, Clarke. Yes 2 ruckmen, and 3 tall forwards!:thumbsu:
Just as a side, the memorable 2005 semi against Port, when IMO Crow's structure was best balanced and performed it has ever been in past 5 years.
We had Rutten, Bock, Bassett, McGregor (2 goals), Perrie (3 goals), Hentschel (3 goals), Biglands, Clarke. Yes 2 ruckmen, and 3 tall forwards!:thumbsu:
But do you think there is room for 3 tall forwards in a side that also has Burton and Goodwin playing as target/marking forwards?
That means out of 6 forward positions (generally two of which are more midfieldy type positions) you have 5 marking players! Seems a bit of an overload to me
But do you think there is room for 3 tall forwards in a side that also has Burton and Goodwin playing as target/marking forwards?
That means out of 6 forward positions (generally two of which are more midfieldy type positions) you have 5 marking players! Seems a bit of an overload to me
Yes I do, remembering Welsh was also in that 2005 side (4 goals), who you've said Burton and Goodwin are replacing.
And no I don't :), in that if I had to conceed a tall, it would be McGregor not Maric.
good debate jo, love ya work. :thumbsu: (not being sarcastic by the way :))
Stiffy_18
18 Apr 2008, 14:24
Just as a side, the memorable 2005 semi against Port, when IMO Crow's structure was best balanced and performed it has ever been in past 5 years.
We had Rutten, Bock, Bassett, McGregor (2 goals), Perrie (3 goals), Hentschel (3 goals), Biglands, Clarke. Yes 2 ruckmen, and 3 tall forwards!:thumbsu:
And you have just mentioned SEVEN talls! No?! Its EXACT same number we have now. We still play a forward structure that has 3 talls and 2 mediums in Burton and Goodwin.
Stevens rotates between forward line and backline but he is often used as a 3rd tall forward.
Tippett, McGregor, Stevens = 3 talls forwards. Not to mention Goodwin and Burton who play taller than their heigh suggests and the only crumber you are left with in the forward line is Douglas.
We have a good balance of talls in the side. If we bring in one more we will have 8 talls and we would lost a LOT of running power which is a suicide in today's game and with out game style!
And you have just mentioned SEVEN talls! No?! Its EXACT same number we have now. We still play a forward structure that has 3 talls and 2 mediums in Burton and Goodwin.
Stevens rotates between forward line and backline but he is often used as a 3rd tall forward.
Tippett, McGregor, Stevens = 3 talls forwards. Not to mention Goodwin and Burton who play taller than their heigh suggests and the only crumber you are left with in the forward line is Douglas.
We have a good balance of talls in the side. If we bring in one more we will have 8 talls and we would lost a LOT of running power which is a suicide in today's game and with out game style!
Count again Stiffy...
Rutten, Bock, Bassett = 3x tall defenders
Hentschel, McGregor, Perrie = 3x tall forwards
Clarke, Biglands = 2x rucks
Comes to a total of 8 talls in the side.
My personal belief is that this is the correct structure - 3 talls at either end of the ground, plus 2 ruckmen. One of the talls may be resting on the pine at any given time, usually one of the rucks. The remainder are all smaller running types (or strong marking mid-sized players like Burton).
I think we're one tall short at the moment, but obviously NC disagrees. Given that he's got us off to a 2-2 start, when many of us feared we could be 0-4, it's hard to argue that he's wrong.
Count again Stiffy...
Rutten, Bock, Bassett = 3x tall defenders
Hentschel, McGregor, Perrie = 3x tall forwards
Clarke, Biglands = 2x rucks
Comes to a total of 8 talls in the side.
My personal belief is that this is the correct structure - 3 talls at either end of the ground, plus 2 ruckmen. One of the talls may be resting on the pine at any given time, usually one of the rucks. The remainder are all smaller running types (or strong marking mid-sized players like Burton).
I think we're one tall short at the moment, but obviously NC disagrees. Given that he's got us off to a 2-2 start, when many of us feared we could be 0-4, it's hard to argue that he's wrong.
On Ya Vader, may the force be with us.:thumbsu::D
TheLeftFist8
18 Apr 2008, 14:58
I believe 7v8 talls is a moot point depending on who exactly those talls are.
The game has changed since 2005...we need a depth of running power in the 22.
IF the talls are not versatile or are slow, you cannot afford to have an extra. On the other hand, when Moran and Gill/Hentschel are fit, I'd love to see 8 talls.
Rutten, Bassett, Bock, Griffin, Moran, Stevens, and 2 of Tippett, Gill, Hentschel.
Backs: Rutten, Bock, Bassett
Forwards: Tippett, Gill, Stevens
Rucks: Griffin, Moran
OUT: McGregor
IN: Moran, Gill/Hentschel
That's 8 talls without compromising running power.
I agree that obsessing over height alone is not the answer.
I believe 7v8 talls is a moot point depending on who exactly those talls are.
The game has changed since 2005...we need a depth of running power in the 22.
IF the talls are not versatile or are slow, you cannot afford to have an extra. On the other hand, when Moran and Gill/Hentschel are fit, I'd love to see 8 talls.
Rutten, Bassett, Bock, Griffin, Moran, Stevens, and 2 of Tippett, Gill, Hentschel.
Backs: Rutten, Bock, Bassett
Forwards: Tippett, Gill, Stevens
Rucks: Griffin, Moran
OUT: McGregor
IN: Moran, Gill/Hentschel
That's 8 talls without compromising running power.
I agree that obsessing over height alone is not the answer.
Now THAT is a good suggestion.
porpoise
18 Apr 2008, 15:18
What was Maric's preseason cup form like? The only game I really saw from start to finish was the St Kilda grand final and he was poor. There were a few times where he didn't make the effort to get to an aerial contest, times when he just had to provide a contest and cause a spill and didn't, and he generally failed to impose himself physically on the game.
Is he paying the price Jericho vs Geelong-style for his performance in this match?
I remember the second half of the Hawthorn NAB cup game, hawthorn kick long into their 50, Maric backs back to make great position to take a mark (a-la Shaun Rehn) and completely fluffs it, the end result being a hawks goal. The TV cut to Neil Craig - he looks mighty pissed off, I can only assume with Maric (but could be wrong).
I reckon you may be right Carl and Ivan is paying a Jericho-style price for some of his NAB cup efforts.
I believe 7v8 talls is a moot point depending on who exactly those talls are.
The game has changed since 2005...we need a depth of running power in the 22.
IF the talls are not versatile or are slow, you cannot afford to have an extra. On the other hand, when Moran and Gill/Hentschel are fit, I'd love to see 8 talls.
Rutten, Bassett, Bock, Griffin, Moran, Stevens, and 2 of Tippett, Gill, Hentschel.
Backs: Rutten, Bock, Bassett
Forwards: Tippett, Gill, Stevens
Rucks: Griffin, Moran
OUT: McGregor
IN: Moran, Gill/Hentschel
That's 8 talls without compromising running power.
I agree that obsessing over height alone is not the answer.
I agree, that's a great structure with ideally Tippett and Henstchel as the forwards although that is sometime away yet. Not sure if Tippet and Gill would work equally as well but it would definitely be exciting to watch:thumbsu:
Question though - if Sellar comes on as we hope, tears it up at Glenelg this year, and looks to force his way into the side next year, where does he fit into this structure? I know it's hypothetical but if in the next 2-3 years we see:
Backs: Bock, Rutten, Bassett / Stevens depending on how Bass' form goes as he gets older
Rucks: Griffen, Moran
Forwards: Sellar, Henstchel, Tippett
Does that leave is too top heavy?
I agree, that's a great structure with ideally Tippett and Henstchel as the forwards although that is sometime away yet. Not sure if Tippet and Gill would work equally as well but it would definitely be exciting to watch:thumbsu:
Question though - if Sellar comes on as we hope, tears it up at Glenelg this year, and looks to force his way into the side next year, where does he fit into this structure? I know it's hypothetical but if in the next 2-3 years we see:
Backs: Bock, Rutten, Bassett / Stevens depending on how Bass' form goes as he gets older
Rucks: Griffen, Moran
Forwards: Sellar, Henstchel, Tippett
Does that leave is too top heavy?
I for one would be VERY surprised to see Bassett still running around for the AFC next year. I'm expecting him to retire at the end of the year.
Wayne's-World
18 Apr 2008, 19:41
I think we've taken some real liscence calling Bassett a tall ........191cm in todays game is hardly tall.
Iam like you Vader I think this WILL be Bassetts last year .......he seems to have been getting hurt alot in the last 12 months .....maybe just slowing down a bit .....or coincidence?
If things keep going the currently are I think we can safely say that Gill will be gone at seasons end .......His body is very suspect to the rigours of AFL.
Sellar, Tippett and Hentschell as forwards
Stevens, Bock, and Rutten as defenders
Griffin & Maric as rucks
I agree Moran should be there .....lets call his first emergency ....there are always injuries
James_37
18 Apr 2008, 21:00
Count again Stiffy...
Rutten, Bock, Bassett = 3x tall defenders
Hentschel, McGregor, Perrie = 3x tall forwards
Clarke, Biglands = 2x rucks
Comes to a total of 8 talls in the side.
My personal belief is that this is the correct structure - 3 talls at either end of the ground, plus 2 ruckmen. One of the talls may be resting on the pine at any given time, usually one of the rucks. The remainder are all smaller running types (or strong marking mid-sized players like Burton).
I think we're one tall short at the moment, but obviously NC disagrees. Given that he's got us off to a 2-2 start, when many of us feared we could be 0-4, it's hard to argue that he's wrong.
That also discounts the fact that Roo spent a decent amount of time up forward during that game (3 goals I think) and Welsh almost always took the oppositions best key defender.
It is my opinion that 3 talls are the way to go especially if you don't have a single dominant forward, like a Brown, a Carey or a Franklin etc which we don't.
The argument that both Burton and Goodwin play tall is a valid one, but the problem is that our F50 entry's quite often consist of bombing it in long. This is where an undersized forward is often exposed, Burton and Goodwin will win the 1 on 1's most likely, especially on the lead, but in these pack situations, they should really become the rovers and let the big men fly. Yes, Burton can fly, but more often than not gives away a free kick in these situations. Now I wouldn't have a problem if Mcgregor and Stevens were contributing here, but they're not, Mcgregor does on the odd occasion, but Tippet looks like he can do it on a consistent basis.
As has been said, the real problem is that we have 4 Key defenders and 1 severly immobile KPF, who takes the odd contested grab. But then we have a bloke who looks like he can consistently take that contested grab, or at least create a decent contest when the ball is bombed long, and we play him in the ruck so he probably only gets 40-50% of game time max up forward. Now, whilst Craig won't do it, if Mcgregor fails to improve the defensive and offensive and Maric shows some form, then I'd be all for dropping Mcgregor. Make a statement to the older players that they must perform, or they will be dropped. Whilst it has been noted that we still want to win games, I must ask is Mcgregor's output more than what having Tippet up forward and another full time ruck would be, IMO the answer is no.
Now hopefully by the end of the season, we will have Gill and fingers, toes and everything else crossed that Hentschel will also be back, which would also put pressure on our 4 KPD's especially if Massie is playing, a number which really should be 3 tops, which makes me pretty certain, that Basset will struggle to get another contract at the end of this year. So I wouldn't be suprised at all, if one of these blokes is dropped at some stage this year, at this stage probably Basset, maybe Stevens. If we were to get Gill and Hentschell back, even if we don't actually, I'd really like to see at least one of Goodwin and Burton pushed more up to a HF/CHF role where they can use their insane fitness levels to run opponents to the ground Riewoldt style, leaving Tippet with maybe Hentschell or a Stevens deep. Gill IMO, if he ever makes it back would also be a great option up on the half forward line, probably more dangerous there than deep. So really I'd like our forward line to look something like,
F: Hentschel Tippet Douglas/Jacky(sml forward)
HF: Goodwin Gill Burton
That way Goodwin and Burton can use there fitness and marking power in one on ones on the half forward line and then push back fast to help crumb the packs that Tippet and Hentschel and whilst they play tall, remember guys, they can also play small. Doing this would mean no Mcgregor, no Basset/Stevens, depending on injuries as well and Griffen + Maric or Moran in the ruck, I can't wait for Moran to get a decent run, because he just looked awesome on the run for a big fella, similar to Griffen will do, will just become an extra midfielder at ground level. No doubt many will disagree, but at least we've had some decent discussion on the topic, which is what this board is about. Oh and WW, I think we have to regard Basset as tall because these days he just doesn't look like he has the pace to play on a small, sadly, I think his days are numbered.
hugecannon
18 Apr 2008, 22:49
For what it's worth this would be my starting forward line tomorrow:-
F:- McGregor Tippett Douglas
HF:- Burton Goodwin Vince
With Maric as Griffen's back-up at the expense of Shirley.