Thoughts On The Fremantle Game

[Wayne's-World]

Well that was one of THE frustrating games to watch.

I know both teams played defensive loose players but in the second half the skill errors from us was woeful.

A couple of key points to come out of todays game only:

1. We are carrying way to many players who are just did not contribute enough today and are putting alot of pressure onto the rest ofthe side ......Macgregor, Shirley, Mackay & Jacky.

2. Our midfield whist I thought we had good contributors in Vince, Doughty, Porps and Thompson I thought lacked depth of rotations and lacked players to run & carry across lines in the last qtr.

I thought Mackay did some nice run thru the lines in the second half but not often enough and not enough players doing it.

Still think we tired and it was just the class of Macleod, and Goodwin that saw us thru.

Griffin:
Fantastic game from the lad .....he got well & truly towelled up last time against Sandilands ....but I thought he beat him clearly today often getting first hand to the ball and directing some really nice taps .

Around the ground he each week is starting to know where to position himself (generally on a wing) and the team is starting to use him.

Doughty:
In career best form and IMO the pick of the midfield today ......he'll certainly get another contract if he keeps this form up.

He's been called soft ....a subject of great debate on this board .....but he's never been soft and today some of his efforts deserve great praise from us Crows supporters.

Vince:
Almost the pick of our midfield group in the last couple of weeks ......whist I have always been a supporter he's even surprised me how he gets on his own so easily and his possesions and disposals are so clean.

Tippett:
IMO not 100% fit ....but his footy brain is equal to his athletic abilities.

To have a 200cm player who can pick the ball of the turf like he did and then trap a ground ball and dish out a handpass is gold .......and then to be able to take a contested mark that we know he can ......he truly will be a champion.

Jacky:
Fitst couple of touches .....I cringed ......but then in the second half he did some really clever gets and good handballs ......what I liked is he never paniced ....he held the ball and dished off and exactly the right time.

Didn't get a lot of possessions ....few do .....but good first up effort.

Burton:
As said without him we'd be in serious trouble ........he unbalances all defences and assists players like tippett and Goodwin.

His marking effort and second desperate lunge to spill the ball to Macleod was typical of hisleadership efforts this season

Bock:
Colors lowered again for second successive game as Freo played thru his man and made him accountable ......also knowing he runs off at every chance Freo had secondary players ready to apply pressure.

Mackay:
Did some really good things when the game got tight but was very very quiet in the first half.

With his build it's a really tough ask to back up each week .....generally you would give kids 4 week blocks then give their body & minds a rest .....we can't do that because of injury and thus we're getting tired performances.

Symes:
I know I'll get howelled down but Still do not see Symes as either a wingman or midfielder .....not quick enough and disposal is iffy.

I can understand why Port had him on a HBF as he does read the game well.

Bassett:
Looking every bit of 32 and struggled today with the pace & pressure of the game.

Shirley:
See Bassetts commentary .....but in the midfield a slow non contributor can be a real liability.

He was fumbling a lot and really contributed very little.

MacGregor:
Well if Maric cannot fulfill the same role .....or even Sellar for that fact ....then somethings wrong.

Known for his contested marking .......he aint doing that either so in the last 2 weeks his contribution has been minimal.

Sellar is the better ruckman and more mobile than Kenny .....at times I wondered today whether Shirley and Kenny were actually playing.

Porplyzia:
Seemed to play more as a forward today ....certainly got most of his possessions in the forwrd area.

Getting a lot more attention AP so is a bit of a learning phase forJason.

We're really missing the extra depth of Reilly and Knights in particular.

[Wayne's-World]

Sorry Mods can we merge threads here as Drummond had the same idea as me

[Drummond]

Gee, what an ordinary game of football that was! Crows came out looking pretty good and we should’ve had the game wrapped up midway through the second term but some poor shots in front of goal proved costly. Goodwin and Burton combined for 6.8 in a pretty wayward effort up forward. Our skills let us down and for a while there it looked as though Fremantle would steal the game.

We went into our shells quite a few times today and the last 5 minutes of the game was truly horrendous to watch. Might have been good for the DT but that’s all it did. All in all a very lackluster performance and it certainly didn’t install me with any degree of confidence. We should’ve won by a lot more but in the end we were lucky to escape, if that makes sense. Here's my player review:

Bassett: Played well down back and a massive improvement from last week as he was obviously fit and ready to go. Made it even more evident that he should’ve had last week off.

Bock: Played well, responded after his terrible game last week. Use of the ball was much improved and he managed to get his opponent quiet. That’s more like it Bocky!

Burton: Kicked 3 goals, 10 marks, played very well but he drives me insane. Kicked a beautiful goal on the run from 50 which was the highlight of his game.

Doughty: 28 possessions, what a tear this man is on. Thought he played very well again and some of the tackles he managed to break were great. Slightly questionable disposal at times though.

Douglas: Meh. Did a few nice spin moves and had a couple of goal assists but it staggers me how a guy in his third year plays exactly like he did when he first arrived at the club. Where’s the improvement?

Edwards: The inconsistency of Edwards continues. IMO he’ll retire at years end. Been a champion but is slowing down and has one good week followed by a bad one.

Goodwin: 3 goals, but 4 behinds. Wasted a lot of shots on goal and should’ve buried the Dockers himself. Really should have finished with 5 at the very least.

Jacky: Massive concern over his foot skills, and no, this wasn’t just on the back of today’s game. Overall I thought he played reasonably well, he was in amongst it but he lost his footing at a few crucial times. Didn’t get much game time at all but when on he looked okay. He is extremely small though!

Johncock: Another one of our great defenders. Perhaps a little bit quiet today but didn’t do much wrong back there.

Mackay: Looks the goods. Some poorly executed handballs which put teammates under the pump but a big improvement on last week. Probably played about 50-60% of the game but was impressive when on.

McGreogor. Please Sellar, show something in the SANFL! The sooner this guy is delisted the better.

McLeod: Wow what a performance. One of his best EVER games. Started the game by mopping up everything in defence and as the game wore on he snuck forward and kicked 2 goals. He just does not make a mistake, quite simply a legend of the game. When just about everyone else was making poor skill errors, he was hitting target after target. All class.

Porplyzia: Played okay, did some nice things and kicked a nice left foot snap goal but reasonably quiet. I’m not watching that game again but perhaps on second viewing I might have noticed him more.

Rutten: AA FB.

Shirley: Please, how much longer does this have to continue? Half of his 16 possessions were handballs straight to teammates which put them under the pump. Just really ordinary disposal but for some unknown reason he will be retained.

Stevens: Did alright, not a huge impact though.

Symes: Very good game but once again let down by a few poor disposals, like the OOF kick in the dying stages of the match. Strung two very good games together in a row now, keep it up Brad!

Thompson: Just a quiet 20 disposals and a goal. Started well but faded out of the game. But for mine, this game eclipsed his 27 disposal game from last week as he did the hard stuff and used the ball well.

Tippett: Only 8 possessions but this man is a gun. That scoop off the deck, which generated the appreciation thread, was truly a thing of beauty. Had a few other magnificent pick-ups off the deck and good to see him kick another goal, his 5th in 5 games. Can’t believe he was only credited for 2 hit-outs but surely it’s time for Maric? He does need to work on his kicking for goal though.

Van Berlo: Definitely an improvement, but still not really overly damaging. A few too many ineffective handballs to be classed as a top game but his skills by foot were pretty good, some low spearing kicks to the forwards. Needs to lift.

Vince: Played very, very well IMO, much better than the stats reflect. Used the ball superbly and is a smart football player. Continues to develop.

[Ticktak]

Douglas: Meh. Did a few nice spin moves and had a couple of goal assists but it staggers me how a guy in his third year plays exactly like he did when he first arrived at the club. Where’s the improvement?


Looks like you answered your own question. Haven't seen the game but just wondering if any other Crows players had more tackles than him?

[Wayne's-World]

Bassett: Played well down back and a massive improvement from last week as he was obviously fit and ready to go. Made it even more evident that he should’ve had last week off.

Douglas: Meh. Did a few nice spin moves and had a couple of goal assists but it staggers me how a guy in his third year plays exactly like he did when he first arrived at the club. Where’s the improvement?

Edwards: The inconsistency of Edwards continues. IMO he’ll retire at years end. Been a champion but is slowing down and has one good week followed by a bad one.

Jacky: Massive concern over his foot skills, and no, this wasn’t just on the back of today’s game. Overall I thought he played reasonably well, he was in amongst it but he lost his footing at a few crucial times. Didn’t get much game time at all but when on he looked okay. He is extremely small though!

Stevens: Did alright, not a huge impact though.

Symes: Very good game but once again let down by a few poor disposals, like the OOF kick in the dying stages of the match. Strung two very good games together in a row now, keep it up Brad!


Just comments on your review

To me this and last week has been very poor games by Bassett.

Whilst he continues to rack up loose ball possessions my concern was when he was pressured his reaction time a foot speed have been very slow.

He was run down today and also last week and was slow getting to 50/50 contests which Iam sure Craig would not have been impressed with.

To me I would call ATS this to be his last season.

I can also understand your call on Edwards ....but surely we're not expecting him to be a prime mover at his age .......again IMO he is suffering a little from Knights and Reilly being unavailable ......if they were he'd be playing as a small forwrd rather than in the midfield.

Douglas I differ in that he is producing moves AP that I haven't seen b4 from him .....he's starting to wrongfoot players and his disposal today was much lower in tradjectory than last season where he dropped the ball from higher up.

To me he is showing maked improvement.

With Jacky it's not unusual under AFL first game pressure to have poor disposal ......certainly wouldn't label his disposal as poor ATS.

However Symes is 23 and his disposal ....or should I say pentetration of his kicking to me is not to where IMO wingmen and midfielders should be in skills.

Vince, Porplyzia, Goodwin, Macleod and even Mackay .....now that's the bench mark for midfield disposals .....and Symes is not close even though he knows how to get the thing.

[Freddy Bassett]

We have a heap of rookies and 2nd a 3rd year players and every AFL game is an investment in them, they are only going to get better from the experience and will not be worldbeaters every round. I laugh at you guys saying we were shit. It wasnt an outstanding performace by us but we got the four points and we will continue to improve. And the fact we know how to win games by running down the clock is great. We are 3/5 and with the injuries we have had and the sides we have played we are doing bloody good. So smile and be happy we have another win on the board

[Ticktak]

Douglas I differ in that he is producing moves AP that I haven't seen b4 from him .....he's starting to wrongfoot players and his disposal today was much lower in tradjectory than last season where he dropped the ball from higher up.

To me he is showing maked improvement.


mmm, seems strange that opinions could be so different:confused::rolleyes:;)

[smoovy]

I had written down in my footy record as us winning hospital handballs 37-12.

Also won hospital handball receives 28-6, with Scotty Thompson leading in that category.

Glad for the 4 points, but I almost staged a dramatic walkout (out of frustration) in the members area in the last quarter despite us leading by 2 gaols.

[Wayne's-World]

mmm, seems strange that opinions could be so different:confused::rolleyes:;)

Hey I have criticized him but there are some great movements that haven't been there which has the eye brow twitching.

You must agree:

1. His disposal is better with a lower ball drop and lower tradjectory.

2. He's now evading tackles

3. Today he used his body on several occassions to knock players off balance to get possessions.

If we're using possessions as an indicator of good games ....then yes he was poor ......if we're looking at personal improvement in the way he's playing the game ..... then today was really positive

The possession count will rise ........to quote a hackneyed phrase .....it's all about process;)

[Carl Spackler]

A painful game to watch. Felt like pulling teeth for much of it.

Apart from McLeod, Palmer and two great ground level efforts by Tippett it was just about the worst game of football I've ever watched. Won't be watching the replay anytime soon!

Let's just take the 4 points, move on and never speak of it again.

[srv23]

On a positive note - the good sides in the comp win games when they play ordinary. How many close games like that would we have lost last year?

We didn't play anywhere near our best, Freo who have been under the pump all week since the Richmond game, came at us hard and looked like over running us and we found a way to win. That in itself is a big plus.

[Pride of SA]

Douglas: Meh. Did a few nice spin moves and had a couple of goal assists but it staggers me how a guy in his third year plays exactly like he did when he first arrived at the club. Where’s the improvement?

Jacky: Massive concern over his foot skills, and no, this wasn’t just on the back of today’s game. Overall I thought he played reasonably well, he was in amongst it but he lost his footing at a few crucial times. Didn’t get much game time at all but when on he looked okay. He is extremely small though!

McLeod: Wow what a performance. One of his best EVER games. He just does not make a mistake,



So after a hissy fit that Jacky was selected, you have 'massive concerns' over him after probably 30 mins of game. I thought his foot skills from the limited gametime he got (and allowing for first game nerves) were pretty good. If only you gave some of these guys you select for perma-hate even a fraction of the gold pass you gave duds like Meesen, who was a skillless squib

and your attitude on Douglas has been clear from day one so its taken with a grain of salt. If you cant see the improvement in Douglas then you must be watching a different game. his ability to slip around packs is fast becoming very dangerous. If that were Darren Pfeiffers game you'd fair dinkum spoil yourself.

As for McLeod not making any mistakers, I gather you missed the 3 kicks straight to unmanned opposition, two of which gave Freo easy goals? not that he didnt just about win us the game there at the end with his skills but wasnt one of his better ones.


Edit - Tippett MUST be signed up to a contract covering any chance of him being snaffled by the Gold Coast team. He is as good at the deck and can take a great contested mark. The out-bodying Sandilands to take a grab was pure class by the youngster.

[Drummond]

So after a hissy fit that Jacky was selected, you have 'massive concerns' over him after probably 30 mins of game. I thought his foot skills from the limited gametime he got (and allowing for first game nerves) were pretty good. If only you gave some of these guys you select for perma-hate even a fraction of the gold pass you gave duds like Meesen, who was a skillless squib
Serious question, do you have an inability to read? I said this concern is NOT based on today’s game, I’ve seen him 4 times now and every time I’ve walked away questioning his foot skills. It’s not so much his accuracy, although that was an issue, it’s his weight of kick. He struggles to kick more than 45 metres. Hopefully when his build increases that will improve but at this stage it’s an issue.

And yes, Meesen is a dud. As Mr.G would say, “there’s no denying it”.

and your attitude on Douglas has been clear from day one so its taken with a grain of salt. If you cant see the improvement in Douglas then you must be watching a different game. his ability to slip around packs is fast becoming very dangerous. If that were Darren Pfeiffers game you'd fair dinkum spoil yourself.
In case you hadn’t noticed, Pfeiffer’s going along very nicely with the Blues, thanks for the concern. And Douglas has always been able to break packs. You bag me for my negative attitude when it comes to Douglas when how about you wake up and realise virtually everyone on this board is the complete opposite and they will praise him regardless of his output. What double standards. Lift your game.

[brucetiki]

It was a must-win game, it was an ugly game, but ultimately, we got the 4 points.

As ugly as the game was, the umpiring was worse. That free in the centre against McGregor was one of the worst I've ever seen.

[fightingdreamer88]

I will say this only once young Drummond, you must remember and accept it: there is no issue with Jarrhan's footskills. This will become more apparent as he plays more games. There is also no issue with his depth of kick.

You are wasting your time even expressing concern, trust me on that. You will see.

Edit: The game was horrid. Had so much of the footy and burnt it soooo many times.

[Pride of SA]

Serious question, do you have an inability to read? I said this concern is NOT based on today’s game, I’ve seen him 4 times now and every time I’ve walked away questioning his foot skills.

reading comprehension skills just fine thanks. seen him a few times too, as have plenty of people here and guys I work with. Most have no problems at all with his skills. So own experiences and others Vs the harping Drummond. I wonder which way I should go.....

And yes, Meesen is a dud. As Mr.G would say, “there’s no denying it”.

:eek:

In case you hadn’t noticed, Pfeiffer’s going along very nicely with the Blues, thanks for the concern.

Pfeiffers going average in a team of dregs. his grandmother could earn a spot in that team. And most people who took issue at your wailing over dropping of Pfeiffer mentioned the fact that you just might not know all the reasons he was sent packing, despite you calling the coach a 'joke' at every opportunity.

..wake up and realise virtually everyone on this board is the complete opposite and they will praise him regardless of his output. What double standards. Lift your game.

no, people give praise when its due, not just because they are blinded by love for another team, and your oh so keenness to sh!tcan the club as soon as it makes a decision you disagree with. I`ve seen plenty of people make criticisms of Douglas and others when he does something poor.

But they also give players positive credit when due - thats called being a supporter, give it a try sometime.

[Wayne's-World]

and your attitude on Douglas has been clear from day one so its taken with a grain of salt. If you cant see the improvement in Douglas then you must be watching a different game. his ability to slip around packs is fast becoming very dangerous. If that were Darren Pfeiffers game you'd fair dinkum spoil yourself.
.

Very good observation

[smoovy]

Bassett:
Looking every bit of 32 and struggled today with the pace & pressure of the game.


Will not hear a bad word against the hound dog. You under estimate the effects of concussion. He clearly should not have played last week. Was a serviceable performance today. Our defence is always better for him in the side.

He is also the best we have at angry reactions to poor umpiring decisions. I need to be entertained.

[CrowHop]

Agree with most peoples summations. I will add the following :

Douglas - Stepping up and looking ok. Not quite top shelf but seems to get better with every outing. A bit harsh on him Drummy.

Bassett - Was ok today, seemed to lack a bit of awareness and I thought took the wrong option a number of times. Still an ok game and did a lot of good things. Real good players just wouldnt have been caught in the middle of the ground like he was though.

Symes - Really dont know what to make of the lad. Does a lot of good stuff, but is let down by disposals too often. I thought he busted his gut though so a :thumbsu: from me. If he could clean up his disposal he'd be a lot more dangerous, considering the amount of ball he seems to find. 28 touches and 4 tackles is a good day out.

Shirley - :confused:

Pfeiffers going average in a team of dregs. his grandmother could earn a spot in that team. And most people who took issue at your wailing over dropping of Pfeiffer mentioned the fact that you just might not know all the reasons he was sent packing, despite you calling the coach a 'joke' at every opportunity.


Pfeiffer's going a bit better than average I reckon, but that's a bit off topic.

[Wayne's-World]

Will not hear a bad word against the hound dog. You under estimate the effects of concussion. He clearly should not have played last week. Was a serviceable performance today. Our defence is always better for him in the side.

He is also the best we have at angry reactions to poor umpiring decisions. I need to be entertained.

:p

Concussion first week I agree very likely to slow one's reflex's ..........but I'll side with the view that under pressure he is not performing great ATM.

[Wayne's-World]

Crows dig in for third win
RSSFont downFont largerPrintAuthor: Katrina Gill
5:40 PM Sat 19 April, 2008

THE CROWS have survived a spirited Fremantle fightback to claim victory by 17 points - 12.16 (88) to 10.11 (71) - in front of 39,554 fans at AAMI Stadium.

Adelaide led by as much as 37 points in the third term, but wasted countless shots on goal to allow Fremantle within four points in the final quarter.

Superstar Andrew McLeod was released into the midfield and was at his vintage best with 34 possessions and two important last quarter goals.

Nathan Bock was superb in keeping Matthew Pavlich goalless for the first time since teammate Ben Rutten kept him to a solitary behind in round five last season.

Michael Doughty, Brad Symes, Nathan Bassett, Nathan Bock and Nathan van Berlo all had plenty of the ball, while youngster Rhys Palmer was a shining light for Fremantle.

The temperature climbed to 27 degrees for the opening bounce and both teams certainly felt the heat early.

Fremantle man mountain Aaron Sandilands edged Jon Griffin in the hit-outs, but it was the Crows who dominated possession.

Bassett, McLeod, Graham Johncock and Doughty marshalled Adelaide’s defence, combining for 36 touches in the first term.

The Crows' inexperienced midfield again stood tall and allowed seasoned campaigners Simon Goodwin and Brett Burton to play as genuine forwards.

Goodwin got the home side on the board with a strong mark and goal and Burton followed the skipper’s lead with his first major giving Adelaide a handy 14-point lead.

Bernie Vince, Richard Douglas and Jason Porplyzia got involved in the play and fellow youngster Kurt Tippett captialised with a goal.

Fremantle reduced the deficit to 15 points at quarter time with debutant Clayton Hinkley slotting through his first goal in AFL football.

The visitors looked like mounting a comeback when Michael Johnson kicked the opening major of the second term, but it proved to be false hope for disgruntled Freo fans.

McLeod, Bassett and Brad Symes continued to rack up possessions as the Crows, awkwardly, worked their way towards goal. Adelaide dished off several errant handballs, but the home side was good enough to maintain possession.

Burton troubled Steven Dodd up forward and kicked his second goal after playing on from a mark outside 50m. Goodwin, not to be outdone, nailed his second major soon after with a clever goal from the boundary line.

Tippett showed poise beyond his years, and 201cm frame, using one hand to scoop up a loose ball before dishing to Porplyzia, who failed to reward the fifth-gamer’s hard work.

But Porplyzia made amends minutes later, kicking a goal to extend Adelaide’s lead to 25 at the main change.

The Crows had plenty of chances to secure their third win of the season in the third quarter, but struggled to convert.

Adelaide had nine shots on goal for the term and managed a return of just 2.7. Porplyzia continued his rapid rise to AFL stardom with his second goal and, in doing so, pushed the lead out to 32 points.

The footy appeared to be in safe hands when Goodwin, Burton, McLeod and Edwards all lined up for goal, but all four wasted opportunities.

Fremantle, with the door left ajar, punished Adelaide for its inaccuracy with Scott Thornton and Jeff Farmer kicking back-to-back goals.

Goodwin’s third gave the Crows some breathing space, but Farmer turned it on again to finish with the last two goals of the quarter.

Crows fans grew increasingly uneasy as Johnson goaled for Fremantle to reduce the margin to just 10 points.

Fremantle kept pushing forward and, when Dean Solomon was awarded a free kick inside 50m, Adelaide’s lead was trimmed to just four.

Goodwin blew an opportunity to extend Adelaide’s lead with his fifth behind and Tippett, too, nervously dragged a shot on goal across the face.

Luke McPharlin did his best to snatch the lead with two last quarter goals, but best on ground McLeod proved the difference.

Adelaide 3.4 6.6 8.13 12.16 (88)
Fremantle 1.1 2.5 6.9 10.11 (71)

GOALS
Adelaide: Goodwin 3, Burton 3, Porplyzia 2, McLeod 2, Tippett, Thompson
Fremantle: Farmer 3, Johnson 2, McPharlin 2, Hinkley, Thornton, Solomon

BEST
Adelaide: McLeod, Bock, Goodwin, Burton, Symes, Porplyzia
Fremantle: Palmer, Hayden, Dodd, Drum, Bell

INJURIES
Adelaide: Nil
Fremantle: Nil



Hey Stiffy and Macca23 ........Shirley not mentioned anywhere ......and god forbid hasn't been credited with Pavlich's poor game ....what the! :eek:

[Drummond]

Hey Stiffy and Macca23 ........Shirley not mentioned anywhere ......and god forbid hasn't been credited with Pavlich's poor game ....what the! :eek:
Stiffy and macca both know their stuff, but seriously, I haven't read something that ridiculous for a few years.

[Wayne's-World]

Stiffy and macca both know their stuff, but seriously, I haven't read something that ridiculous for a few years.

I agree they are both generally posters I enjoy reading their comments ......but get them on Shirley or McGregor and frankly they have lost their objectivity.

[Stiffy_18]

Hey Stiffy and Macca23 ........Shirley not mentioned anywhere ......and god forbid hasn't been credited with Pavlich's poor game ....what the! :eek:
How about I live all the footy analysis to the self proclaimed footy gods like yourself, Drummond and a couple of other knobs who just love to whinge and moan about everything! Shall I?!

Here is a fact for all you knockers out there. Shirley is performing a role for the team. He keeps getting selected which actually suggests that. I find it very interesting that all those that stayed at home and watched from the comfort of their well worn out arm chair never actually realised that Pavlich was picked up by Shirley when he played in the midfield. There was only one center bounce when Symes took Pavlich. Every other midfield set up saw Shirley go to Pavlich and actually limit his influence.

Here is another fact, you have bitched and moaned about taggers ever since you joined this board. You have NEVER rated them. Not once. You have always begged them every chance you got. You even questioned once whether or no the great Brisbane teams had a tagger and once shown that Hart was one of their taggers who also happened to be a Norm Smith Medallist you still went ahead and bitch and moaned about taggers.

You have NEVER rated a tagger who does a defensive job week in week out. In fact you have always had the agenda against such players and they have always been you number 1 target. Apparently even Tyson Stenglein wasn't worth more than a second round pick! So the bottom line is, when it comes to taggers and defensive midfielders you are hardly someone with a reputable opinion out there because you have NEVER rated them despite the fact that they continue to survive in the game. There comes a time when you actually have to put your hand up and say I was wrong but I guess ego doesn't quite allow it.

Now, as I have said, offensively Shirley is struggling. He is not finding the ball as well as he used to, he us fumbling too much and he is not having a high hurt factor with is offensive game at the moment. But he is in the side as a defensive midfielder and for ANYONE to question the defensive job he did today is just plain stupid.

Forgive me, but I have NEVER seen Bock line up in the center and run around with Pavlich in the midfield. I saw Shirley do a great defensive job on one of the superstars in the competition and I think that deserves some praise

Now I do expect the likes of Shirley and McGregor and a few others to find it tough to get a game down the track. If that isn't the case I would be EXTREMELY disappointed because it would suggest that the youngsters haven't come on. Shirley's game today was very similar to the game Doughty played on Kerr this year. Shirley did his job today and thats all that we can ask at the moment.

[Wayne's-World]

Great debating style Stiffy ......address every opposing poster as knobs or clueless .....cheap shots :rolleyes:

And you can always trot out ....


He's performing a role for the team

or

He's important to team structure


Have to laugh if that's the basis of your arguments

[Drummond]

How about I live all the footy analysis to the self proclaimed footy gods like yourself, Drummond and a couple of other knobs who just love to whinge and moan about everything! Shall I?!

Here is a fact for all you knockers out there. Shirley is performing a role for the team. He keeps getting selected which actually suggests that. I find it very interesting that all those that stayed at home and watched from the comfort of their well worn out arm chair never actually realised that Pavlich was picked up by Shirley when he played in the midfield. There was only one center bounce when Symes took Pavlich. Every other midfield set up saw Shirley go to Pavlich and actually limit his influence.

Here is another fact, you have bitched and moaned about taggers ever since you joined this board. You have NEVER rated them. Not once. You have always begged them every chance you got. You even questioned once whether or no the great Brisbane teams had a tagger and once shown that Hart was one of their taggers who also happened to be a Norm Smith Medallist you still went ahead and bitch and moaned about taggers.

You have NEVER rated a tagger who does a defensive job week in week out. In fact you have always had the agenda against such players and they have always been you number 1 target. Apparently even Tyson Stenglein wasn't worth more than a second round pick! So the bottom line is, when it comes to taggers and defensive midfielders you are hardly someone with a reputable opinion out there because you have NEVER rated them despite the fact that they continue to survive in the game. There comes a time when you actually have to put your hand up and say I was wrong but I guess ego doesn't quite allow it.

Now, as I have said, offensively Shirley is struggling. He is not finding the ball as well as he used to, he us fumbling too much and he is not having a high hurt factor with is offensive game at the moment. But he is in the side as a defensive midfielder and for ANYONE to question the defensive job he did today is just plain stupid.

Forgive me, but I have NEVER seen Bock line up in the center and run around with Pavlich in the midfield. I saw Shirley do a great defensive job on one of the superstars in the competition and I think that deserves some praise

Now I do expect the likes of Shirley and McGregor and a few others to find it tough to get a game down the track. If that isn't the case I would be EXTREMELY disappointed because it would suggest that the youngsters haven't come on. Shirley's game today was very similar to the game Doughty played on Kerr this year. Shirley did his job today and thats all that we can ask at the moment.
You always harp on about how we can't have too many young and inexperienced bodies playing at once, and really, who else was available to play this week that wasn't selected?

Dangerfield, Kite, Otten, Walker, Hentschel, Maric, Sellar, Moss, Martin? Have I missed anyone?

Shirley was picked because quite frankly we had NO ONE ELSE. So don't pretend that he was picked because he's doing such a stellar job on the field, he was picked because none of the guys I mentioned above (bar Maric) are ready to play at the top level. It was a case of being fit at the right time, nothing to do with form. If it was on form he would’ve been dropped this year because he was horrendous last week.

[Wayne's-World]

Shirley is performing a role for the team. He keeps getting selected which actually suggests that.

Here is another fact, you have bitched and moaned about taggers ever since you joined this board. You have NEVER rated them. Not once. You have always begged them every chance you got. You even questioned once whether or no the great Brisbane teams had a tagger and once shown that Hart was one of their taggers who also happened to be a Norm Smith Medallist you still went ahead and bitch and moaned about taggers.

You have NEVER rated a tagger who does a defensive job week in week out. In fact you have always had the agenda against such players and they have always been you number 1 target. Apparently even Tyson Stenglein wasn't worth more than a second round pick! So the bottom line is, when it comes to taggers and defensive midfielders you are hardly someone with a reputable opinion out there because you have NEVER rated them despite the fact that they continue to survive in the game. There comes a time when you actually have to put your hand up and say I was wrong but I guess ego doesn't quite allow it.

Now, as I have said, offensively Shirley is struggling. He is not finding the ball as well as he used to, he us fumbling too much and he is not having a high hurt factor with is offensive game at the moment. But he is in the side as a defensive midfielder and for ANYONE to question the defensive job he did today is just plain stupid.

Now I do expect the likes of Shirley and McGregor and a few others to find it tough to get a game down the track. If that isn't the case I would be EXTREMELY disappointed because it would suggest that the youngsters haven't come on. Shirley's game today was very similar to the game Doughty played on Kerr this year. Shirley did his job today and thats all that we can ask at the moment.

WOW ...talking about agueing both sides .... I guess if Shirley gets dropped you hardly be called wrong :p

Yes I don't rate tagger highly .......why would you rate less talented players trying to stop the most talented players in the game.

But also how many taggers are actually successful at their supposed trade ....the top midfielders are still up there in possessions, influence on the game ....and in Brownlow counts ......

But now there is a move by clubs to downplay the role ........simply put it is getting too difficult to tag.

Team mates are setting blocks everywhere to free up the likes of Judd and the explosion in rotations is making tagging very difficult as if you remove the tagger at the same time as the tagee it can also throw your rotations out.

No ...hard tags are going to decline .....certainly run with roles will still be in vogue but it'll be rotated across a number of midfielders rather than a nominated tagger as in the past.

Shirley = dionaseur

Shirley playing his role today ......of course he did :p:p

BTW he's getting picked because he's an experienced midfielder ......we are low on midfielders due to injury .....and we don't want too many first year players in the team and particularly the midfield at the same time.

Nothing to do with form or performance there.

[Stiffy_18]

Great debating style Stiffy ......address every opposing poster as knobs or clueless .....cheap shots :rolleyes:

And you can always trot out ....


He's performing a role for the team

or

He's important to team structure


Have to laugh if that's the basis of your arguments
Oh please, Shirley has been your whipping boy for years now. Is it true that you have NEVER rated taggers. Shall we go back over your post history and see this?!

You are the person that likes to see class in players which is fair enough. Everyone likes classy players. But where you fall extremely short in is the fact that you do not grasp the concept that EVERY team has role players. The greatest teams of all time had role players. Shirley is a role player. Has been his entire career. Thats how he has managed to play 100 odd games of AFL football. Thats how he has earned the living for the last 10 odd years. This is where we see things differently. You would rather see Shirley get 20 possesions that are damaging offensively and see his opponent get 30 possesions that are damaging than see Shirley have 10 non-damaging possesions himself and keep his opponent to 10 ineffective disposals. Thats you choice and fair enough but I am sick and tired of people knocking players that are performing their roles for not being "sexy" enough.

People didn't want Doughty in the side this year. Based on what?! Some predetermined opinion that will not change because they just can't bring themselves to admit that they were wrong.

Offensively Shirley is struggling. Defensively he is doing a pretty good job, or he has done today!

[SpringChoke]

Douglas is coming along very nicely thankyou...:thumbsu:

[fightingdreamer88]

Oh please, Shirley has been your whipping boy for years now. Is it true that you have NEVER rated taggers. Shall we go back over your post history and see this?!

You are the person that likes to see class in players which is fair enough. Everyone likes classy players. But where you fall extremely short in is the fact that you do not grasp the concept that EVERY team has role players. The greatest teams of all time had role players. Shirley is a role player. Has been his entire career. Thats how he has managed to play 100 odd games of AFL football. Thats how he has earned the living for the last 10 odd years. This is where we see things differently. You would rather see Shirley get 20 possesions that are damaging offensively and see his opponent get 30 possesions that are damaging than see Shirley have 10 non-damaging possesions himself and keep his opponent to 10 ineffective disposals. Thats you choice and fair enough but I am sick and tired of people knocking players that are performing their roles for not being "sexy" enough.

People didn't want Doughty in the side this year. Based on what?! Some predetermined opinion that will not change because they just can't bring themselves to admit that they were wrong.

Offensively Shirley is struggling. Defensively he is doing a pretty good job, or he has done today!

On the form Doughty was showing initially people had every reason not to be keen on keeping him in the side. He turned it around though; as long as he keeps something like that up then fine, he can stay. Not sure which "people" you are referring to but the majority from my perspective have been praising him for getting into gear.

[Stiffy_18]

WOW ...talking about agueing both sides .... I guess if Shirley gets dropped you hardly be called wrong :p

Yes I don't rate tagger highly .......why would you rate less talented players trying to stop the most talented players in the game.

But also how many taggers are actually successful at their supposed trade ....the top midfielders are still up there in possessions, influence on the game ....and in Brownlow counts ......

But now there is a move by clubs to downplay the role ........simply put it is getting too difficult to tag.

Team mates are setting blocks everywhere to free up the likes of Judd and the explosion in rotations is making tagging very difficult as if you remove the tagger at the same time as the tagee it can also throw your rotations out.

No ...hard tags are going to decline .....certainly run with roles will still be in vogue but it'll be rotated across a number of midfielders rather than a nominated tagger as in the past.

Shirley = dionaseur

Shirley playing his role today ......of course he did :p:p

BTW he's getting picked because he's an experienced midfielder ......we are low on midfielders due to injury .....and we don't want too many first year players in the team and particularly the midfield at the same time.

Nothing to do with form or performance there.
This is great. You have joined this board in 2003 and its now 2008. Ever since you joined this board you have been flying that flag but guess what?! They are still around and they are still doing their job and they still keep getting picked. Maybe eventually they will become extinct but that for the past 4 or 5 years they have done their job and they continue to do it!

[Wayne's-World]

Oh please, Shirley has been your whipping boy for years now. Is it true that you have NEVER rated taggers. Shall we go back over your post history and see this?!

You are the person that likes to see class in players which is fair enough. Everyone likes classy players. But where you fall extremely short in is the fact that you do not grasp the concept that EVERY team has role players. The greatest teams of all time had role players. Shirley is a role player. Has been his entire career. Thats how he has managed to play 100 odd games of AFL football. Thats how he has earned the living for the last 10 odd years. This is where we see things differently. You would rather see Shirley get 20 possesions that are damaging offensively and see his opponent get 30 possesions that are damaging than see Shirley have 10 non-damaging possesions himself and keep his opponent to 10 ineffective disposals. Thats you choice and fair enough but I am sick and tired of people knocking players that are performing their roles for not being "sexy" enough.

People didn't want Doughty in the side this year. Based on what?! Some predetermined opinion that will not change because they just can't bring themselves to admit that they were wrong.

Offensively Shirley is struggling. Defensively he is doing a pretty good job, or he has done today!

No I don't rate taggers ....see my last post

Yes I prefer class above holding, jumper pulling and other tactics used by "hard" taggers.

Lastly even if I do recognise his performance as a taggger ......no-one else in the league has or does.

When discussions occur about taggers ......Shirley is never in any of the conversations .....simply put he is ONLY RATED by Crows fans (or some of them)

Why? .....because the great taggers DO HAVE an offensive side to their game

[Wayne's-World]

This is great. You have joined this board in 2003 and its now 2008. Ever since you joined this board you have been flying that flag but guess what?! They are still around and they are still doing their job and they still keep getting picked. Maybe eventually they will become extinct but that for the past 4 or 5 years they have done their job and they continue to do it!

Certainly the dour defending tagger has disappeared as now they are part of team rotations and are required to have a strong offensive side to their game so as to keep the tag honest.

Also the game has changed dramatically year by year .....last season rotations averaged 60 - 70.......this season the average will be somewhere 90-100.

Less time on the ground ....easier to lose tags thru rotations

[Vader]

This is great. You have joined this board in 2003 and its now 2008. Ever since you joined this board you have been flying that flag but guess what?! They are still around and they are still doing their job and they still keep getting picked. Maybe eventually they will become extinct but that for the past 4 or 5 years they have done their job and they continue to do it!

I don't necessarily agree with the rest of WW's argument, but I do tend to agree that the role of the hard tagger is going the way of the dinosaur.

The primary reason for this is the dramatic increase in interchanges seen in the last 2 years. Players are now rotated on & off the bench so frequently that it is very difficult for players to have a one-on-one contest.

These days every player is responsible for every other player on the ground. If his "opponent" isn't in a position to challenge, then it's up to you to do it yourself. The midfielders don't really fight a series of individual one-on-one battles any more, it's pretty much one large eight-on-eight battle.

As an example of this, I was listening to the ABC radio coverage of the Essendon/Footscray game last week when one of the doggy defenders stated that he'd prepared for 4 separate opponents during the week, but had 8 different opponents at varying times during the game.

Will the role of the hard tagger come back into vogue at some time in the future? Maybe. Everything old becomes new again, the more things change the more they stay the same. But right now, the role of hard tagger is not what it used to be.

[Wayne's-World]

I don't necessarily agree with the rest of WW's argument, but I do tend to agree that the role of the hard tagger is going the way of the dinosaur.

The primary reason for this is the dramatic increase in interchanges seen in the last 2 years. Players are now rotated on & off the bench so frequently that it is very difficult for players to have a one-on-one contest.

These days every player is responsible for every other player on the ground. If his "opponent" isn't in a position to challenge, then it's up to you to do it yourself. The midfielders don't really fight a series of individual one-on-one battles any more, it's pretty much one large eight-on-eight battle.

As an example of this, I was listening to the ABC radio coverage of the Essendon/Footscray game last week when one of the doggy defenders stated that he'd prepared for 4 separate opponents during the week, but had 8 different opponents at varying times during the game.

Will the role of the hard tagger come back into vogue at some time in the future? Maybe. Everything old becomes new again, the more things change the more they stay the same. But right now, the role of hard tagger is not what it used to be.

Exactly right .... and unfortunately that renders some players redundant to the future game.

[-CG-]

What to say about that game? Bit of a funny one, wasn't very inspiring.

To me we looked tired still and only slightly improved on last week. I'm glad our opposition weren't much better.

I enjoyed Doughty's game. He was one of a few players who went the distance today. I'd add to that group Vince, McLeod, Johncock was alright and Symes. Douglas did a couple of nice things too. Griffin did alright, continued to pop up around the ground a little, so is improving in that area.

Would have liked to have seen Jacky a little more, but can understand why he wasn't on the ground that long. Did look a little bewildered out there, he appeared unsure when to lead and just what to do. I was hoping he would go up forward for a bit. Can't really take too much out of his game, but he was alright.

Was disappointed with a couple of player's efforts. Just can't stand when an opposition player has a ball and one of our players only runs half heartedly towards them. I thought Shirley, McGregor, Rutten (held Pav well but was caught behind a bit where you'd usual see him put the spoil in) and Thompson was a little quiet (would like to see him in the centre more).

But after all that, as someone else said, just happy to ge the four points :thumbsu:

[Stiffy_18]

No I don't rate taggers ....see my last post

Yes I prefer class above holding, jumper pulling and other tactics used by "hard" taggers.

Lastly even if I do recognise his performance as a taggger ......no-one else in the league has or does.

When discussions occur about taggers ......Shirley is never in any of the conversations .....simply put he is ONLY RATED by Crows fans (or some of them)

Why? .....because the great taggers DO HAVE an offensive side to their game
But here is the thing Wayne, in the time that you have questioned him (since 2003) he has had a number of finishes in the top 10 in the B&F as well as Coaches award and the best team man. So that tells me that those who are closer to the scene than you and me and anyone else here happen to rate the job that Shirley is doing. No direspect, but I think those intimately involved in our club would have a MUCH better read on Shirley's value to the team.

Now I am not disputing that this year he is out of form. Offesively he is not getting enough of it and he is not as effective with his disposal as he can be. I have never disputed that and on current form with everyone fit and firing he wouldn't make my 22 because Doughty is in better form. However, I do take offence when posters who watch the game from the comfort of their lounge room and have no great feel for the greater picture on the football field come on here and savage our players who have performed the role for a team. It might not be a glamorous role but its none the less an important role.

Now I agree that Shirley will find it tough to keep a spot in the team. But thats not to say that he is rubbish, its saying that someone is in better form than him. And the same people that have bagged him over the years (yes Drummond you are in that lot) who claim that he is only getting a game because we got no one else, I will continue to point to his regular selection in the last 5 odd years, his finishes in the B&F at the club and also his coaches awards and best team man awards. Those speak more about the value the club sees in Shirley than some arm chair experts who wouldn't know the meaning of a role player if it hit them in the face.

[crows98]

An uneventful and overall boring game today but we got 4 points and that’s all that matter as in a few days no one will remember how we got the points just that we did.

Its time we moved on to the next game and worry about the blues at the MCG.

[Wayne's-World]

But here is the thing Wayne, in the time that you have questioned him (since 2003) he has had a number of finishes in the top 10 in the B&F as well as Coaches award and the best team man. So that tells me that those who are closer to the scene than you and me and anyone else here happen to rate the job that Shirley is doing. No direspect, but I think those intimately involved in our club would have a MUCH better read on Shirley's value to the team.

Now I am not disputing that this year he is out of form. Offesively he is not getting enough of it and he is not as effective with his disposal as he can be. I have never disputed that and on current form with everyone fit and firing he wouldn't make my 22 because Doughty is in better form. However, I do take offence when posters who watch the game from the comfort of their lounge room and have no great feel for the greater picture on the football field come on here and savage our players who have performed the role for a team. It might not be a glamorous role but its none the less an important role.

Now I agree that Shirley will find it tough to keep a spot in the team. But thats not to say that he is rubbish, its saying that someone is in better form than him. And the same people that have bagged him over the years (yes Drummond you are in that lot) who claim that he is only getting a game because we got no one else
.

This may be trivializing the point ....but how many flags did we win during that period.

You see it's about formulating a team to win a premiership.

If you don't then the you have weaknesses in your side ....that being playing personnel and/or gameplan.

Macgregor ideally siuted Ayres gameplan as a stay at home CHB ..... I have always stated he did not fit Craigs plans ......some of our well documented issues with various talls have prolonged his life.

Shirley IMO had a great 2007 ......but as we have agreed I would rather a Van Berlo, or Doughty perform the tagging role because they add to our offensive game.

Craig said we needed to be more attacking, kick more goals in 2008 ........gee that's hard when you have a player with no offensive game which is contrary to how he played 2007.

Your continueing to have a bit both ways ......saying he's fulfilling a role ......yet also saying he will find it difficult to hold his position.

Which is it .......he's either performing his role or not ......simply if he's not he loses his position in the team .......can't play both sides ;)

[Stiffy_18]

This may be trivializing the point ....but how many flags did we win during that period.

You see it's about formulating a team to win a premiership.

If you don't then the you have weaknesses in your side ....that being playing personnel and/or gameplan.

Macgregor ideally siuted Ayres gameplan as a stay at home CHB ..... I have always stated he did not fit Craigs plans ......some of our well documented issues with various talls have prolonged his life.

Shirley IMO had a great 2007 ......but as we have agreed I would rather a Van Berlo, or Doughty perform the tagging role because they add to our offensive game.

Craig said we needed to be more attacking, kick more goals in 2008 ........gee that's hard when you have a player with no offensive game which is contrary to how he played 2007.

Your continueing to have a bit both ways ......saying he's fulfilling a role ......yet also saying he will find it difficult to hold his position.

Which is it .......he's either performing his role or not ......simply if he's not he loses his position in the team .......can't play both sides ;)
In the last 5 odd years we have missed the finals once and played in 3 prelim finals. Thats not exactly crap results which suggests that Shirley was a VITAL cog in teams that have played in PFs, including a team that won the minor premiership with 17 wins in a H&A season.

Shirley is doing his role but time will pass him. Its starting to. Just as 3 years ago McGregor was doing his bit as a forward (and doing it well) and is not struggling. Better players come along, players that aren't stars lose their spots. Even Torney had a bad year with us where he couldn't break into our team yet he was a VERY VERY good player.

Its called evolution, younger players will come in and they will take over. In fact they have started to already claim their place in the team. It won't be a case of whether or not Shirley is doing his job but it will be a case if there is someone who can do it better. It doesn't mean that Shirley is rubbish, it just means that there is someone better coming in to take his spot. Its just a matter of life.

Massie has been in similar situations. Whenever he got a chance, he played well. He did his job and deserved to keep his spot in the team but as soon as someone better came along, Massie was back with Norwood. For years Massie would play well only to see him drop out of favour once Torney came in because he was doing his role better.

Similar case with Shirley. He is doing a good tagging job, well at least he did today but when Reilly and Knights come back in, Shirley will likely be back at the Eagles and someone like Doughty or van Berlo (who is himself struggling) will take Shirley's role. It wouldn't be a case of Shirley getting dumped because he is crap, its just a case that someone better has come along! ;)

[Wayne's-World]

Similar case with Shirley. He is doing a good tagging job, well at least he did today but when Reilly and Knights come back in, Shirley will likely be back at the Eagles and someone like Doughty or van Berlo (who is himself struggling) will take Shirley's role. It wouldn't be a case of Shirley getting dumped because he is crap, its just a case that someone better has come along! ;)

There's never been an argument on that point .....simply that IMO there have been better options previously.

Just as I believe there are better options than McGregor currently .....

It's just that sometimes experience gets preference over youth ......and that's a point for much debate as various coaches have different thoughts on that.

The Crows have always preferred the dependability of performance over youthful exuberance and potentially better performers.

As I have said ....has our approach payed dividends in terms of success?

Was Carey's recruitment (experience) better than picking up Daniel Wells.

You see it's never black & white as you have suggested .......there are opposing philosophies.

[Eastern Crow]

today was sych a frustrating game

I thought against the Hawks we lacked run, however I thought today we may of tried too hard to create run and by doing so over used the footy by hand, we need to find the right balance

I thought the positives

Griffin, he is developing nicely, Vince was very good in patches, while Doughty and Symes played four good qtr's

Macca, absolutely outstanding

In a nutshell too many errors today, even from our senior blokes, Edwards and Goody made uncharacteristic mistakes, Shirley his confidence is shot

[jenny61_99]

Am surprised Bocky made it into the best players list... I thought he had an ordinary day today.
Am also surprised so many have said Bassett was ordinary... I thought he was one of our best in the first half. He made some basic errors in the second half that took the gloss off though.
For all of Andrew McLeod's heroics today he too made a couple of costly clangers, but more than made up for them.
I feel for Thommo who is being tagged so heavily. I wonder if we can move him (forward maybe?) to shake the tag?
VB was very quiet in the first half but came into the game when it was really needed. (Is he getting tagged too?)
Doughty had another corker.
Tippett and Griffin are developing really nicely.
Jacky probably still not ready for the big time, but showed some very promising signs I thought - much better today than in the NAB cup. If we have fit players to return next week he will probably get dropped back.
I thought Shirley did a reasonably good defensive job today - was often third man up in the ruck (along with Symes).
Enjoying watching Symes play - getting better every week. Still has some improvements to make though.
Vince got better as the game went on.
Mackay was reasonably quiet but showed some real maturity in that fourth quarter.
Goal kicking.... hmmm, the old accuracy problem continues.
Stiffy had a great first half but went very quiet in the second.
Stevo was serviceable.
Kenny Mc had a 150th he'd probably like to forget. How much game time did he actually get?

[Southerntakeover]

Lastly even if I do recognise his performance as a taggger ......no-one else in the league has or does.


Complete and utter crap.

Dont try and use others as the justification for your own stupid bias.

[hey shorty]

Gee, what an ordinary game of football that was! Crows came out looking pretty good and we should’ve had the game wrapped up midway through the second term but some poor shots in front of goal proved costly. Goodwin and Burton combined for 6.8 in a pretty wayward effort up forward. Our skills let us down and for a while there it looked as though Fremantle would steal the game.

We went into our shells quite a few times today and the last 5 minutes of the game was truly horrendous to watch. Might have been good for the DT but that’s all it did. All in all a very lackluster performance and it certainly didn’t install me with any degree of confidence. We should’ve won by a lot more but in the end we were lucky to escape, if that makes sense. Here's my player review:

Bassett: Played well down back and a massive improvement from last week as he was obviously fit and ready to go. Made it even more evident that he should’ve had last week off.

Bock: Played well, responded after his terrible game last week. Use of the ball was much improved and he managed to get his opponent quiet. That’s more like it Bocky!

Burton: Kicked 3 goals, 10 marks, played very well but he drives me insane. Kicked a beautiful goal on the run from 50 which was the highlight of his game.

Doughty: 28 possessions, what a tear this man is on. Thought he played very well again and some of the tackles he managed to break were great. Slightly questionable disposal at times though.

Douglas: Meh. Did a few nice spin moves and had a couple of goal assists but it staggers me how a guy in his third year plays exactly like he did when he first arrived at the club. Where’s the improvement?

Edwards: The inconsistency of Edwards continues. IMO he’ll retire at years end. Been a champion but is slowing down and has one good week followed by a bad one.

Goodwin: 3 goals, but 4 behinds. Wasted a lot of shots on goal and should’ve buried the Dockers himself. Really should have finished with 5 at the very least.

Jacky: Massive concern over his foot skills, and no, this wasn’t just on the back of today’s game. Overall I thought he played reasonably well, he was in amongst it but he lost his footing at a few crucial times. Didn’t get much game time at all but when on he looked okay. He is extremely small though!

Johncock: Another one of our great defenders. Perhaps a little bit quiet today but didn’t do much wrong back there.

Mackay: Looks the goods. Some poorly executed handballs which put teammates under the pump but a big improvement on last week. Probably played about 50-60% of the game but was impressive when on.

McGreogor. Please Sellar, show something in the SANFL! The sooner this guy is delisted the better.

McLeod: Wow what a performance. One of his best EVER games. Started the game by mopping up everything in defence and as the game wore on he snuck forward and kicked 2 goals. He just does not make a mistake, quite simply a legend of the game. When just about everyone else was making poor skill errors, he was hitting target after target. All class.

Porplyzia: Played okay, did some nice things and kicked a nice left foot snap goal but reasonably quiet. I’m not watching that game again but perhaps on second viewing I might have noticed him more.

Rutten: AA FB.

Shirley: Please, how much longer does this have to continue? Half of his 16 possessions were handballs straight to teammates which put them under the pump. Just really ordinary disposal but for some unknown reason he will be retained.

Stevens: Did alright, not a huge impact though.

Symes: Very good game but once again let down by a few poor disposals, like the OOF kick in the dying stages of the match. Strung two very good games together in a row now, keep it up Brad!

Thompson: Just a quiet 20 disposals and a goal. Started well but faded out of the game. But for mine, this game eclipsed his 27 disposal game from last week as he did the hard stuff and used the ball well.

Tippett: Only 8 possessions but this man is a gun. That scoop off the deck, which generated the appreciation thread, was truly a thing of beauty. Had a few other magnificent pick-ups off the deck and good to see him kick another goal, his 5th in 5 games. Can’t believe he was only credited for 2 hit-outs but surely it’s time for Maric? He does need to work on his kicking for goal though.

Van Berlo: Definitely an improvement, but still not really overly damaging. A few too many ineffective handballs to be classed as a top game but his skills by foot were pretty good, some low spearing kicks to the forwards. Needs to lift.

Vince: Played very, very well IMO, much better than the stats reflect. Used the ball superbly and is a smart football player. Continues to develop.

Drumbo mate this is scary but you are spot on IMO

[Markthirtytwo]

Will not hear a bad word against the hound dog. You under estimate the effects of concussion. He clearly should not have played last week. Was a serviceable performance today. Our defence is always better for him in the side.

He is also the best we have at angry reactions to poor umpiring decisions. I need to be entertained.

You must have been at a different game than me then. After he got run down in the the last quarter after being well in the clear, tells me he has either lost the ability to feel an opponent or his speed has deserted him.
After he lost the ball, his sookey head went down, walking back to his position was deplorable. He had no idea or seemed to care where the ball was unlike in the past. If as you say he's feeling the effects still of being ko'd then he should not have played again.

[King Elvis]

Disgraceful thread.

It was a shit game, which we won.

Some of you need to stop being ____ing drama queens.

[Southerntakeover]

Disgraceful thread.

It was a shit game, which we won.

Some of you need to stop being ____ing drama queens.

Haha.

I knew there was a reason i like you. :D:thumbsu:

[Jars458]

Basic errors all over the ground nearly cost us today, but we ground out the win.

How long did Pav spend in the midfiedl? Bock did very well on him when he was forward and is hence in the best players.

McLeod was our best but made a couple of errors like anyone

Bassett played pretty well. Last week was an off game but all this talk of concussion is nonsense, as he would not have played last week if there were any concerns. He was a victim of the Hawks brilliant pressure.

We are well placed at 3-2 given our injuries and the the redevelopment stage we are in.

Vince Griffin McKay and Douglas are all shwoing enough.

Doughty continues to play well just like he did for most of last season.

Thought T Edwards was poor today but was very good last week.

Sign Tipett up now he is a star of the future.

Jacky was reasonable in his first game. Good for him to get a taste.

Summary - take the four points and run!!!:D

[-CG-]

You must have been at a different game than me then. After he got run down in the the last quarter after being well in the clear, tells me he has either lost the ability to feel an opponent or his speed has deserted him.
After he lost the ball, his sookey head went down, walking back to his position was deplorable. He had no idea or seemed to care where the ball was unlike in the past. If as you say he's feeling the effects still of being ko'd then he should not have played again.

It looked like Basset knew he was being chased, but still took his time to get a disposal away and subsequently got caught.

[noddy]

It looked like Basset knew he was being chased, but still took his time to get a disposal away and subsequently got caught.

I thought the same & was wondering whether or not the Hound has some sort of fetish for having his head banged into the ground. :confused:

[King Elvis]

Just watching it again now.

Burton is dangerous already; imagine if he actually got paid frees for the absolute molesting he gets.

It was a low quality game, but I thought we played pretty well.

There was passages where our ball movement was sensational - fast, accurate and direct.

[Wayne's-World]

Complete and utter crap.

Dont try and use others as the justification for your own stupid bias.

That's simple to rebutt then .......rank in order for me the 16 primary taggers from each team in order of performance.

Here's your chance to actually put up .......or should you just shut up :rolleyes:

[Sir Vlado]

We didnt capitalise on our opportunities very often as the crows were inaccurate at goal we maybe should've won by at least 30 if we were accurate enough, but 4 points are 4 points.

[topjars]

Am surprised Bocky made it into the best players list... I thought he had an ordinary day today.
Am also surprised so many have said Bassett was ordinary... I thought he was one of our best in the first half. He made some basic errors in the second half that took the gloss off though.
For all of Andrew McLeod's heroics today he too made a couple of costly clangers, but more than made up for them.
I feel for Thommo who is being tagged so heavily. I wonder if we can move him (forward maybe?) to shake the tag?
VB was very quiet in the first half but came into the game when it was really needed. (Is he getting tagged too?)
Doughty had another corker.
Tippett and Griffin are developing really nicely.
Jacky probably still not ready for the big time, but showed some very promising signs I thought - much better today than in the NAB cup. If we have fit players to return next week he will probably get dropped back.
I thought Shirley did a reasonably good defensive job today - was often third man up in the ruck (along with Symes).
Enjoying watching Symes play - getting better every week. Still has some improvements to make though.
Vince got better as the game went on.
Mackay was reasonably quiet but showed some real maturity in that fourth quarter.
Goal kicking.... hmmm, the old accuracy problem continues.
Stiffy had a great first half but went very quiet in the second.
Stevo was serviceable.
Kenny Mc had a 150th he'd probably like to forget. How much game time did he actually get?


Well summed up Jenny; Im not sure about Shirleys game though.
vB has lost form and yep Kenny had a shocker.
\Was Jacky wearing roller skates today?

I watched 2 quarters of the replay this morning and found myself not watching the game it was that bad.
Its as if the whole team has lead in thier boots.

[Crowman32]

Ive gotta say im a bit surprised by some of the negative comments made about Mackay on this thread. I thought he played okay yesterday and i think his first 5 games of AFL has been very good for a young Kid. I like the way he takes the opposition on when he gets the footy and like the composure he shows when has the ball as well. IMHO comments that Mackay needs a rest are absoulute rubbish. Wait til this kid has played 50 or so games and i reckon will be very happy with the player we have got.

[Ticktak]

Douglas: Meh. Did a few nice spin moves and had a couple of goal assists but it staggers me how a guy in his third year plays exactly like he did when he first arrived at the club. Where’s the improvement?



Gee, you would think he might be close to being delisted then if he's not showing any improvement in his 3rd year:rolleyes:

[footy4ever]

Never care how ugly the game is. A win is a win is a win. If nailed set shots- would've won by at least high 30's. Surprised Goody didn't find the goals more often.

Have to agree with Craig - last 4 -5 mins made sure of the game...and we got a goal out of it. Hate that tactic when teams do it to us, so it must be a good one.

[hugecannon]

Gee, you would think he might be close to being delisted then if he's not showing any improvement in his 3rd year:rolleyes:


Not neccessarily.....Luke Jericho anyone :p

[Kane McGoodwin]

It was a scrappy game & whilst some of it was our own doing, Freo did well to clog up our backline run too. Our players were too congested for most of the game, which meant we often got in trouble with the short handballs (often to a team mate who was manned up). We moved the ball much better when we had space & used the longer handball as a weapon (some of Dogga's were Roo like). Obviously Craig will make adjustments & at the end of the day, happy to come away with the 4 points

[Jars458]

Ive gotta say im a bit surprised by some of the negative comments made about Mackay on this thread. I thought he played okay yesterday and i think his first 5 games of AFL has been very good for a young Kid. I like the way he takes the opposition on when he gets the footy and like the composure he shows when has the ball as well. IMHO comments that Mackay needs a rest are absoulute rubbish. Wait til this kid has played 50 or so games and i reckon will be very happy with the player we have got.

Agreed he makes mistakes but tehy are when he is trying to do something positive. I think we need to keep him in the side to develop. Don't think we have much choice at the moment anyway.

[King Elvis]

Mackay wasn't perfect - but he's been so impressive that I think we forget he has only played 5 games of AFL; he looks like he's been around a lot longer.

And Shirley's stats in the paper suggest he was a very solid contributor.

[Markthirtytwo]

It looked like Basset knew he was being chased, but still took his time to get a disposal away and subsequently got caught.

Timing is everything in football and he thought he had more time than he did.
But as I said he spat the dummy big time by not caring about the game and started shouting at team mates about manning up on his man.

[Markthirtytwo]

Mackay wasn't perfect - but he's been so impressive that I think we forget he has only played 5 games of AFL; he looks like he's been around a lot longer.

Agreed. One thing he needs to work on IMO is that sometimes he gets caught in two minds about what he intends to do with the ball. On at least two occasions he looked and kept the ball while wondering what to do next. Finally he kicked to someone under pressure instead of going for goal.

Just needs to tidy that part of his game.

[fightingdreamer88]

Agreed. One thing he needs to work on IMO is that sometimes he gets caught in two minds about what he intends to do with the ball. On at least two occasions he looked and kept the ball while wondering what to do next. Finally he kicked to someone under pressure instead of going for goal.

Just needs to tidy that part of his game.

Yep, should tidy up nicely with some confidence just like the others. No wait, maybe he's in CRUISE CONTROL!! :p

[Crow-mo]

This may be trivializing the point ....but how many flags did we win during that period.

You see it's about formulating a team to win a premiership.

If you don't then the you have weaknesses in your side ....that being playing personnel and/or gameplan.



I'm only going to make a couple of point here, because all of your pathetic excuses for your bias here have been discredited a hundred times over the years.

this is one of them.

many times over you have maintained that shirley is rubbish, and that it doesn't matter that he figured so highly in the B&F's because we didn't win the flag. now this has been pointed out, over and over, how stupid the logic is here. in those years, we were one of the top 2 maybe 3 sides in the comp. no we didn't win the flag, and it's embarassing that you try to pin that on the less glamorous players.

simply if you take a coefficient of the teams standing (position on the ladder) with a players finish in the B&F across the league, you'll see (yet again) what a silly and utterly ludicrous argument it is to suggest that it doesn't matter that a player finishes as one of the best players, for one of the best clubs. it is exactly what matters.

over and over you roll out this same tired line, is it because you hope for traction with new posters who haven't seen how discredited those arguments are? :)

in 2007, Shirley finished with a -2 differential against his opponents. i.e. he averaged 18 touches himself (with elite handball efficiency) whilst his opponents averaged 20 touches. which considering that the opponents are much more feted names is one of the better outcomes for a defensive player.
for example Stenglein finished with a -6 differential.

[Crow-mo]

That's simple to rebutt then .......rank in order for me the 16 primary taggers from each team in order of performance.

Here's your chance to actually put up .......or should you just shut up :rolleyes:

and this is point no.2

why should he make your argument for you? you've tried and failed for years to make your argument, so why adopt the passive aggressive stance that he should make the running.

I don't believe you even know who the primary taggers are for each team, and never have - let alone their relative rankings. which YOU do need to know, to maintain your incredibly one eyed view. this is your opinion, so don't suggest that anyone else other than you has the onus for your 'marginal' views.

anyway, that's me done.

[Elite Crow]

[quote=Crow-mo;10745055]simply if you take a coefficient of the teams standing (position on the ladder) with a players finish in the B&F across the league, you'll see (yet again) what a silly and utterly ludicrous argument it is to suggest that it doesn't matter that a player finishes as one of the best players, for one of the best clubs. it is exactly what matters.

And yet when a player doesnt figure in the top 18 of your B&F you say so what? Make up your mind either the B&F matters or it doesnt.

[Crow-mo]

[quote=Crow-mo;10745055]simply if you take a coefficient of the teams standing (position on the ladder) with a players finish in the B&F across the league, you'll see (yet again) what a silly and utterly ludicrous argument it is to suggest that it doesn't matter that a player finishes as one of the best players, for one of the best clubs. it is exactly what matters.

And yet when a player doesnt figure in the top 18 of your B&F you say so what? Make up your mind either the B&F matters or it doesnt.

am I the only man crush you have at the moment, or are there others? you seem the type ;)

ps. as usual, simple things have passed you by. when someone consistently does something that counts, when something out of kilter with the normal happens that counts less. the pattern over time matters more than an isolated one off. quite obviously :)

[Elite Crow]

[quote=Elite Crow;10745241]

am I the only man crush you have at the moment, or are there others? you seem the type ;)

ps. as usual, simple things have passed you by. when someone consistently does something that counts, when something out of kilter with the normal happens that counts less. the pattern over time matters more than an isolated one off. quite obviously :)

Be careful Crow Mo, you dont want to resort to personal insults.

Your style is to attack anyone who doesnt share your views. Therefore if you make contradictory statements or get it wrong expect a response.

So where did Doughty play on the weekend Crow Mo and did you listen to his interview? Of course you did but you couldnt possibly admit you were wrong.

[Wayne's-World]

I'm only going to make a couple of point here, because all of your pathetic excuses for your bias here have been discredited a hundred times over the years.

this is one of them.

many times over you have maintained that shirley is rubbish, and that it doesn't matter that he figured so highly in the B&F's because we didn't win the flag. now this has been pointed out, over and over, how stupid the logic is here. in those years, we were one of the top 2 maybe 3 sides in the comp. no we didn't win the flag, and it's embarassing that you try to pin that on the less glamorous players.

simply if you take a coefficient of the teams standing (position on the ladder) with a players finish in the B&F across the league, you'll see (yet again) what a silly and utterly ludicrous argument it is to suggest that it doesn't matter that a player finishes as one of the best players, for one of the best clubs. it is exactly what matters.

over and over you roll out this same tired line, is it because you hope for traction with new posters who haven't seen how discredited those arguments are? :)

in 2007, Shirley finished with a -2 differential against his opponents. i.e. he averaged 18 touches himself (with elite handball efficiency) whilst his opponents averaged 20 touches. which considering that the opponents are much more feted names is one of the better outcomes for a defensive player.
for example Stenglein finished with a -6 differential.

:p

You can always rely on you to come to the defence of Shirley ........there is no other player that you are as passionate about .....I wonder why :confused:

Again you obviously haven't read the entire discussion ......or dare I say let the facts stand in the way of your impassioned argument.

So let me just re-post some things THAT I DID SAY


Waynes-World - Yesterday
Macca I agree with everything you have said .......nothing I have EVER said has remotely been along the lines of calling either of these players DUDS.

I, like you have the utmost respect for anyone who plays AFL and in particular if you have played over 100 games.

But I have always thought there have been alternatives to these players ......McGregor more so in that as a CHB I preferred a more attacking player in that position ......Something Craig has agreed with.

And in Shirley ......well I have never quite seen or agreed with the adulation in taggers in general .......they seem to me to be largely ineffectual .......doesn't stop top midfielders winning games, brownlows ...

It's like if you can't stop Franklin one on one .......then how do you stop a midfielder who is getting blocks set for him ......I still go with it;s therefore better to have a run with player but one with a better offensive game.

We just have to agree to disaggree on this point



Waynes-World - Yesterday
No I don't rate taggers ....see my last post

Yes I prefer class above holding, jumper pulling and other tactics used by "hard" taggers.

Lastly even if I do recognise his performance as a taggger ......no-one else in the league has or does.

When discussions occur about taggers ......Shirley is never in any of the conversations .....simply put he is ONLY RATED by Crows fans (or some of them)

Why? .....because the great taggers DO HAVE an offensive side to their game




Waynes-World - Yesterday
Certainly the dour defending tagger has disappeared as now they are part of team rotations and are required to have a strong offensive side to their game so as to keep the tag honest.

Also the game has changed dramatically year by year .....last season rotations averaged 60 - 70.......this season the average will be somewhere 90-100.

Less time on the ground ....easier to lose tags thru rotations



Waynes-World - Yesterday
Again factless emotional clap trap

Of course any player who plays AFL is a good footy player ......there's only a select few who get the opportunity.

I hate the term slagging players ....frankly no-one slags players .... simply analyzing players performances and potential.

The fact you disagree means in your eyes their slagging .....go figure.

But it's alright for you to unmercifully cut down players like Smith and Jericho ....that's not slagging ....right?

I have been a detractor of Macgregor and Shirley for two seasons ......based only on performance thru my eyes .....and I have given valid commentary on my reasons.

BUT ......I have also, if you read my posts ......credited them when they have had good games.

ALL players deserve respect .....not just your fancied mates

Players are reviewed based on performances over a period of time.

Now here;s one for you ..... I have now put a query on Symes ......if you call that slagging .....so be it ....but I'd refer the dictionary first


That Cro-mo is hardly calling Shirley rubbish ......more a commentary on the tagging role.

Nathan Buckley was on Melb radio tonight talking about the subject of tagging .......he also stated that hard tags were basically useless in todays game what with all the rotations and blocking by various teams to free up star midfielders.

Specifically the discussion revolved around Kieran jacks tagging job on Ablett ......stating that Geelong were setting so many screens to free Ablett and going thru him continously that it was impossible for Jack to be successful in stopping him.

It was stated that Jacks best course of action was to run off Ablett and become an offensive weapon thus forcing Ablett to cover him and somewhat sacrifice part of his offensive game.

The example was Casissi's game as a tagger on Ablett in last years Port/Geelong game .....citing that Casissi decided to run off ablett and ended up scoring the match winning goal.

Now my point on Shirley is that he has relied purely on the defensive aspect of his game ........with only 2007 showing signs of an offensive component to his arsenal.

This season again no offensive side to him .......and he cannot hard tag the good players out .......the opposition ahs worked too many options to work against him and other taggers.

Now that's not calling your brother a rubbish player .....I think my posts clearly say that I respect anyone who has played AFL ...........but your abstract use of useless stats just say you haven't a feel for the game. :);)

[Crow-mo]

WW,

I have to say, I love the way you're pretending you're new to the subject.

magnificent :D

[Eastern Crow]

:p

You can always rely on you to come to the defence of Shirley ........there is no other player that you are as passionate about .....I wonder why :confused:

Again you obviously haven't read the entire discussion ......or dare I say let the facts stand in the way of your impassioned argument.

So let me just re-post some things THAT I DID SAY









That Cro-mo is hardly calling Shirley rubbish ......more a commentary on the tagging role.

Nathan Buckley was on Melb radio tonight talking about the subject of tagging .......he also stated that hard tags were basically useless in todays game what with all the rotations and blocking by various teams to free up star midfielders.

Specifically the discussion revolved around Kieran jacks tagging job on Ablett ......stating that Geelong were setting so many screens to free Ablett and going thru him continously that it was impossible for Jack to be successful in stopping him.

It was stated that Jacks best course of action was to run off Ablett and become an offensive weapon thus forcing Ablett to cover him and somewhat sacrifice part of his offensive game.

The example was Casissi's game as a tagger on Ablett in last years Port/Geelong game .....citing that Casissi decided to run off ablett and ended up scoring the match winning goal.

Now my point on Shirley is that he has relied purely on the defensive aspect of his game ........with only 2007 showing signs of an offensive component to his arsenal.

This season again no offensive side to him .......and he cannot hard tag the good players out .......the opposition ahs worked too many options to work against him and other taggers.

Now that's not calling your brother a rubbish player .....I think my posts clearly say that I respect anyone who has played AFL ...........but your abstract use of useless stats just say you haven't a feel for the game. :);)


great post :thumbsu:

C Ling and K Cornes are 2 examples of the modern day player that get in their direct oponents head by hurting them offensively

last week Kerr had 4 touches up to half time, K Cornes had close to 18, this had to have played on Kerr's mind

[jenny61_99]

Can someone then explain to me why Thommo has been tagged out of the game recently if taggers are so ineffectual?

[Markthirtytwo]

Can someone then explain to me why Thommo has been tagged out of the game recently if taggers are so ineffectual?

Not so sure it's purely a tagging thing with Thommo. One minute he's great and the next no so, and his man no where in sight. :confused:

[jenny61_99]

Not so sure it's purely a tagging thing with Thommo. One minute he's great and the next no so, and his man no where in sight. :confused:

He's a conundrum at the moment that's for sure. I have been absolutely amazed at how many possessions he's had in the last couple of weeks when I kept thinking all during the games how quiet he was. Bizarre.

[Crow-mo]

Can someone then explain to me why Thommo has been tagged out of the game recently if taggers are so ineffectual?

it's a new affectation with current tactics. of course it's nonsense.

rotations will have bugger all to do with the effectiveness of a tag. there are still plenty of midfielders who struggle with a hard tag, the idea that somehow this has stopped is pure fantasy.

regardless of how long and how often a player rotates off the ball, if he wants to be effective he still has to get back into the guts which is hardly a surprise or unexpected to his assigned minder.

[Wayne's-World]

WW,

I have to say, I love the way you're pretending you're new to the subject.

magnificent :D

:) Thankyou