Jake Niall: "Hawks Building a Dynasty"

[philhawk]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/building-a-dynasty/2008/05/21/1211182897197.html

Building a dynasty
Jake Niall | May 22, 2008
HAWTHORN paid its players nearly $2 million less than Sydney in 2007, according to the AFL's figures. The Hawks made the finals, yet ranked 16th for player payments, marginally below Carlton, the only other club that outlaid less than $8 million when all the extras were taken into account.

Winning the wooden spoon for player payments is a significant achievement given that the Hawks finished fifth. The disparity between first and 16th also suggests that, despite the greater cost of those harbour views and Paddington rents, the Swans are a tad generous.

By reaching the second week of the finals, Hawthorn paid an extra $114,700 in finals match payments. Thus, in real terms, it was clearly behind even the Blues, who were bad enough to win just four games and receive a priority pick.

The Hawks managed to pay the least, despite having two veteran-list players in Shane Crawford and Ben Dixon, only half of whose salaries counted in the total player payments. They were substantially below 100% of what was allowed. This was good management, not luck. (cont.)

How crazy is that? 16th in salary payments! We keep on saying it, but no matter what happens, Clarko and our entire group of coaches are amazing.

[Hawks1523]

:eek: 16th in payments? So we have some cash to pay our boys what they're worth. :cool:

[Roughie]

Were a bunch of tight arses!!

The salary would have risen though with re-signing of Franklin this year

[Hawks1523]

Were a bunch of tight arses!!


Keeps us in good stead for future years? :D And we should still have a fair amount left if we were that cheap.

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

I like it but please no more third talls in Thornton or Mundy. Unless they think two of Thorp, Dowler, Sandilands or Renouf can make it as key defenders, we need a 'first' tall.

[medusala]

How crazy is that? 16th in salary payments! We keep on saying it, but no matter what happens, Clarko and our entire group of coaches are amazing.

Not crazy at all. The correlation between football dept spending and ladder position isnt that great. Patrick Smith has written some good articles on this in the past.

This is particularly so re player payments in AFL as its so hard for players to move clubs.

If you want a really good example look at Arsenal.

[CyberKev]

I like it but please no more third talls in Thornton or Mundy. Unless they think two of Thorp, Dowler, Sandilands or Renouf can make it as key defenders, we need a 'first' tall.

Hear, hear!

Neither player would fill the gap for us, so give them both a wide berth.

[hawker39]

I know we want a tall defender but David Mundy is a good player who would improve our list. So if he is available I reckon his is worth consideration.

We do need to make a decision on Grant Birchall and Mundy could be part of this decision. Is Birchall going to be groomed as a key defender or not. If so, Mundy makes a perfect 3rd tall.

[lickmerocks]

Need to think outside the square for what we are after. We need a strong bodied defender to help Croad out. Mundy is not that man.

Rutten Glass Scarlett etc are not going anywhere....

We want to find someone thats not going to cost us the earth.

Leigh Brown from kangas is the man we should look at. Solid and gets thrown around everywhere by Kangas. Could help Croady out and at age 25 is worth a shot. Kangas would deal on him for sure as he is the player they love to hate on there list.

Brown has reasonable skills for a big man and like Croad could finish his career as a strong defender if given a chance.

I am not mentioning any players in case they read this but a tall forward at Box Hill and maybe a third rounder could get the deal over the line as the Kangas need to think about life after Thompson and with Pratt, Watt, Hansen, Petrie etc they ahve a heap of large bodied defenders.
\
Worth a shot?

[Delisted]

Need to think outside the square for what we are after. We need a strong bodied defender to help Croad out. Mundy is not that man.

Rutten Glass Scarlett etc are not going anywhere....

We want to find someone thats not going to cost us the earth.

Leigh Brown from kangas is the man we should look at. Solid and gets thrown around everywhere by Kangas. Could help Croady out and at age 25 is worth a shot. Kangas would deal on him for sure as he is the player they love to hate on there list.

Brown has reasonable skills for a big man and like Croad could finish his career as a strong defender if given a chance.

I am not mentioning any players in case they read this but a tall forward at Box Hill and maybe a third rounder could get the deal over the line as the Kangas need to think about life after Thompson and with Pratt, Watt, Hansen, Petrie etc they ahve a heap of large bodied defenders.
\
Worth a shot?
Leigh Brown? Are you being serious or not?

[Dannerz]

Leigh Brown from kangas is the man we should look at.

I seriously hope that is a bad attempt at humour!

[Alabama Hot Pocket]

Should be alot easier to keep the current team together. A problem I suspect Geelong to face in the coming years.

[Hawks1523]

Leigh Brown?! Are you being serious? :confused:

[Roughie]

Need to think outside the square for what we are after. We need a strong bodied defender to help Croad out. Mundy is not that man.

Rutten Glass Scarlett etc are not going anywhere....

We want to find someone thats not going to cost us the earth.

Leigh Brown from kangas is the man we should look at. Solid and gets thrown around everywhere by Kangas. Could help Croady out and at age 25 is worth a shot. Kangas would deal on him for sure as he is the player they love to hate on there list.

Brown has reasonable skills for a big man and like Croad could finish his career as a strong defender if given a chance.

I am not mentioning any players in case they read this but a tall forward at Box Hill and maybe a third rounder could get the deal over the line as the Kangas need to think about life after Thompson and with Pratt, Watt, Hansen, Petrie etc they ahve a heap of large bodied defenders.
\
Worth a shot?


He was given a chance at Kangas to defend, and he stunk it up. From there they threw him up forward and even on a wing! I would rather Kepler Bradley

[lickmerocks]

Leigh Brown?! Are you being serious? :confused:

remember this..when we let Croad go to Freo he was a Leigh Brown special.

always looked nice however delivered little and never delivered in big games.

went to Freo and averaged 2 goals a game as a key forward...again always looked good and dangerous but results didnt do him justice.

When he returned we settled him into Key Defense and he has blossomed.

My point.... settle a player in one position and he can blossom.

We want soemone we dont need to put 3 years of weights and eating into them before they can play. Brown, Miller and Polak are 3 that have big bodies, have shown at times they can do good things and wouldnt cost us the world to get one of them.

All 3 have underachieved. Put them in the right system as a back up and you are starting to think how we can improve quickly without giving too much up.

[Roughie]

remember this..when we let Croad go to Freo he was a Leigh Brown special.

always looked nice however delivered little and never delivered in big games.

went to Freo and averaged 2 goals a game as a key forward...again always looked good and dangerous but results didnt do him justice.

When he returned we settled him into Key Defense and he has blossomed.

My point.... settle a player in one position and he can blossom.

We want soemone we dont need to put 3 years of weights and eating into them before they can play. Brown, Miller and Polak are 3 that have big bodies, have shown at times they can do good things and wouldnt cost us the world to get one of them.

All 3 have underachieved. Put them in the right system as a back up and you are starting to think how we can improve quickly without giving too much up.

No way, Unlike Leigh Brown, Croad was a number 3 pick, and was good enough to be selected in the Victorian side in 1999. To suggest that Croad wasnt a good player because he was tossed around prior to being brought back from Fremantle is ridiculous.

Croads natural talent far exceeds Leigh Brown, and by no means will Leigh Brown ever be a key defender in any final conteding team.

[lickmerocks]

No way, Unlike Leigh Brown, Croad was a number 3 pick, and was good enough to be selected in the Victorian side in 1999. To suggest that Croad wasnt a good player because he was tossed around prior to being brought back from Fremantle is ridiculous.

Croads natural talent far exceeds Leigh Brown, and by no means will Leigh Brown ever be a key defender in any final conteding team.

see that's the thing about opinions...I can clearly see your passion for the man.

I thought Croad was the most overated player in the competition in 2000 and 2001 and unlike other supporters including my old man was happy to let him go and didnt go to the club waiving banners to keep him.

I can see your passion for the guy like the day at Telstra Dome against the Dogs in 01 when he snagged 6. The following 4 games he didnt get near it and that was Trent to a tee before he settled into 1 position.

I am not syaing Brown, Miller or Polak will ever be world beaters but i am not sure we need a world beater in defense. We need soemone that can play a role and help Croad out....

Choice 1. give up heaps and cost us heaps $$$$ to get a superstar Gorilla

or get soemone with body size who can play a role and cost us very little.

[Delisted]

see that's the thing about opinions...I can clearly see your passion for the man.

I thought Croad was the most overated player in the competition in 2000 and 2001 and unlike other supporters including my old man was happy to let him go and didnt go to the club waiving banners to keep him.

I can see your passion for the guy like the day at Telstra Dome against the Dogs in 01 when he snagged 6. The following 4 games he didnt get near it and that was Trent to a tee before he settled into 1 position.

I am not syaing Brown, Miller or Polak will ever be world beaters but i am not sure we need a world beater in defense. We need soemone that can play a role and help Croad out....

Choice 1. give up heaps and cost us heaps $$$$ to get a superstar Gorilla

or get soemone with body size who can play a role and cost us very little.


Croad always had more talent than leigh brown. Always will.

[kirbatron]

Mundy 191cm.

Rutten 191cm
Scarlett & Glass 192cm

if he builds up then we could develop him. Release Birch on the wing.

Mundy can play and i'd be keen on him.

But should we just use Pick 1 this year on the best gorilla type defender?

[Roughie]

Mundy 191cm.

Rutten 191cm
Scarlett & Glass 192cm

if he builds up then we could develop him. Release Birch on the wing.

Mundy can play and i'd be keen on him.

But should we just use Pick 1 this year on the best gorilla type defender?

But the thing is Mundy has shown his best football as a half back flank, or a tall wingman. His best ability is his dash, I personally cannot see Mundy ever being a tall defender. Saying Mundy will be a key defender, is like saying lets make Birchall fullback? Your negating these type of players best ability in their rebound, to transform them into something their not and thats a key position player.

[kirbatron]

Scarlett is a dashing fullback... could it be possible for him to play that role?

I guess it comes down to his upper body strength and development and reading of the play that sets Scarlett apart.

You're probably right though Ruff

[B&GBlood]

Teams near the bottom of the ladder, looking to start building like we did, will be the teams to "harvest". Melbourne might be prepared to let Rivers or Miller go. Might they be suitable?

Really need to look at a 24 to 26 yo that will be getting to be too old by the time lower clubs have climbed to the window.

[Roughie]

Teams near the bottom of the ladder, looking to start building like we did, will be the teams to "harvest". Melbourne might be prepared to let Rivers or Miller go. Might they be suitable?

Really need to look at a 24 to 26 yo that will be getting to be too old by the time lower clubs have climbed to the window.

Rivers is a gun, and is Melbournes best defender, If they ever let him go I would want to snap him up. But like I said he is their best defender and I think they are looking to the future with Rivers and Frawley holding down key defensive spots.

Im not so keen on Miller, hack as a forward, hack as a defender. Theyll definatly shop him around but he isnt worth a trade, he is more worth pick 10 in a PSD.

[Adelaide Hawk]

Great list management. The Hawks know that in order to keep our required players we will need to have a lot of room in our cap for when the Franklins, Rougheads, Lewis' etc play over 100 games and demand higher slaries.

Great stuff Hawks.

We really are getting back to the 1980s when we were not only the best team On the field, but also the most professionally run club OFF the field.

[Hedgehodgy]

People have already talked about it but Scarlett is rated high becuase of his creativity in the backline, people tend to accept that this is the way that the role of the fullback is going so maybe a Mundy would be a good fit if he can fill out his frame a bit more.

What about a Lake or Morris from the bullies?

[lickmerocks]

People have already talked about it but Scarlett is rated high becuase of his creativity in the backline, people tend to accept that this is the way that the role of the fullback is going so maybe a Mundy would be a good fit if he can fill out his frame a bit more.

What about a Lake or Morris from the bullies?

absobloodylutely.

would use our number 1 pick on Lake. rate him very highly. Big strong and can run. can play on any type. Our number 1 pick if we finish top 2 will be around 20 with Gold Coast coming in i believe???

Not sure the Dogs would take that tho as they have put a huge amount of time in developing him and he has turned into a top player.

[That's deliberate]

Great list management. The Hawks know that in order to keep our required players we will need to have a lot of room in our cap for when the Franklins, Rougheads, Lewis' etc play over 100 games and demand higher slaries.

Great stuff Hawks.

We really are getting back to the 1980s when we were not only the best team On the field, but also the most professionally run club OFF the field.

My friend you will find that wasn't the case at all ...far from it.

These same people you speak of led us into the dark days of the mid 90's which we are only now, some 13 years later, starting to get out of.

[lickmerocks]

My friend you will find that wasn't the case at all ...far from it.

These same people you speak of led us into the dark days of the mid 90's which we are only now, some 13 years later, starting to get out of.

excuse me???

President, Ceo, Directors, Board, Coaches, Marketing has all been added and turned over in the past 6 years.

Different strokes for different folks.

The greatest decision the club has made in the past 10 years is to change the whole "Hawthorn Philosophy" of giving key past hawthorn players position of power just because they played with our club.

We now appoint the best that is available and anyone that doesnt like it because a past legend/player missed out is living in a fantasy world.

[Quinz]

Fair effort, although i'd say nearly every team pays their players about $2m less than Sydney. Except maybe Carlton.

When are Franklin, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Sewell etc. due to sign new contracts?

[That's deliberate]

lol dynasty after 8 games omg get a grip guys u choked last year in teh finals lets see if they can hold there nerves in this years finals all a new ball game u guys have peaked too early

Dear Adelaide flog

Allow me to clear things up for you.

'Choke' in a sporting context, is a term often used to describe ones inability to win from a seamingly unlosable position. recent eg (PA last week)

Some facts for you -

We were never infront at any stage nor did we look like winning at any stage of the said game...

Glad to be of assistance.

TD

[lickmerocks]

lol dynasty after 8 games omg get a grip guys u choked last year in teh finals lets see if they can hold there nerves in this years finals all a new ball game u guys have peaked too early

absolute tripe and you know it. Last year was never about winning a flag you goose.

I get the feeling the Power supporters are still hurting over the fact you had a side that should of won 2-3 flags while you were hot and you ended up winning 1 after all your lame efforts in Finals.

I would think you would be the last person to come on here and talk about chocking.

unlike your mob when we finish building our dynasty we will be in it for sustained success.

[philhawk]

Fair effort, although i'd say nearly every team pays their players about $2m less than Sydney. Except maybe Carlton.

When are Franklin, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Sewell etc. due to sign new contracts?

I believe Mitchell, Buddy, Hodge and Lewis have re-signed till 2010 (Hodge till 09, perhaps)?

Not sure about Brad.

[That's deliberate]

excuse me???

President, Ceo, Directors, Board, Coaches, Marketing has all been added and turned over in the past 6 years.

Different strokes for different folks.

The greatest decision the club has made in the past 10 years is to change the whole "Hawthorn Philosophy" of giving key past hawthorn players position of power just because they played with our club.

We now appoint the best that is available and anyone that doesnt like it because a past legend/player missed out is living in a fantasy world.

Allow me to clear it up for you.

My reference was clearly linked to the administration in charge of the Club in the 80's to early mid 90's, the so called era of dominence 'on field'.

It may pay to read posts carefully next time.:p

[lickmerocks]

I believe Mitchell, Buddy, Hodge and Lewis have re-signed till 2010 (Hodge till 09, perhaps)?

Not sure about Brad.

correct philhawk...you know your footy.

Hodge will be offered an extended contract later this season:thumbsu:

[adelaidepower]

mate check the stats we have the highest winning percentage this decade i think the hawks are like in 11th position and we won three minor premierships and two night flags so we havent done bad

[Noel Gallagher]

Getting back to the opening thread, i would much rather prefer that this type of information WASN'T dug up by a journalist and made public.

Can't help but think that certain managers of ceratin Hawk players would be using this as ammo for tyheir next contract negotiations....

[patatoz]

mate check the stats we have the highest winning percentage this decade i think the hawks are like in 11th position and we won three minor premierships and two night flags so we havent done bad


For 1 day premiership....wow that's impressive

3 minor premierships and 2 night flags mean NOTHING unless you can back it up with premierships..

[Roughie]

For 1 day premiership....wow that's impressive

3 minor premierships and 2 night flags mean NOTHING unless you can back it up with premierships..

And people are inclined to remember the 113 point smashing they got ahead of their premiership victory.

"Port Supporter" Hey we won a premiership!

"Rugby Follower" But didnt you also get your arses handed to you by Geelong?

"Port Supporter" *Runs Away and cries in typical Choco fashion*

[Leather Poisoning]

WHat about Rivers from Melbourne? They wouldn't want to let him go though. Maybe Spud's kid? Is he a fullback? Spud would do that for us, consdiering he's the defensive coach and all.

What about a solid bloke that's not cracking it in the forward 50? Brissy must have a few option with their high-profile forwards.

Do saints have anyone we'd want? And no, I like mcguire, but I think we've taken too many chances on injured players.

SURELY west coast have someone we can pillage?

[Roughie]

WHat about Rivers from Melbourne? They wouldn't want to let him go though. Maybe Spud's kid? Is he a fullback? Spud would do that for us, consdiering he's the defensive coach and all.

What about a solid bloke that's not cracking it in the forward 50? Brissy must have a few option with their high-profile forwards.

Do saints have anyone we'd want? And no, I like mcguire, but I think we've taken too many chances on injured players.

SURELY west coast have someone we can pillage?

I think I said it in this thread that Melbourne wont get rid of Rivers. Frawley is actually spuds nephew, and I think Melbourne are trying to assemble a defensive duo of Rivers and Frawley for the future.

The only people from West Coast that could have a chanced to be asked about is maybe Mitch Brown, the brother of Nathan who was drafted as a forward.

I wouldnt mind if we gunned after Wight from the dogs, he is rated highly I think he has been pretty useless this year but he could devlop well. With their backline including Morris, Lake and the highly rated Williams they could look to shop around Wight?

[starbux]

What about a solid bloke that's not cracking it in the forward 50? Brissy must have a few option with their high-profile forwards.

Why would we be looking in other teams for solid forwards that aren't cracking it in the Forward 50, we already have 2 highly touted forwards on our own list that cant get a game up forward! :confused:

Dowler
Thorpe

[scottydeewah]

Why would we be looking in other teams for solid forwards that aren't cracking it in the Forward 50 - I think he means forwards who people know can play back, e.g. Mooney, Bradshaw, Waite. Still I agree its not the smartest idea!

I thought that article was a good read, especially in regards to salary cap. I find it strange that shit clubs can be paying 100% of the cap, i.e. Carlton. A lot of people talked up how we would lose players to the cap this year but when you sat down and did the math we had quiet a bit of wiggle room. We all acknowledge that on the open market most players are worth more than their club can give them but because there is no free trade the open market is often not there.

e.g. With both the marketing bonanza and on field performance Buddy could easily go 2M a season at another club. Will he ever get that at Hawks, NO, will he ever get close, maybe but not for a few seasons.

The hardest part of retaining players for the Cats, then the Hawks will be opportunity. For example players on the Cats list like Prismall, David Johnson, Byrnes, Tenace may get more games if they move to another club at the end of the season. Similar to how Gardiner, King, Callen and Playfair have all played games at their new clubs this year.

The new clubs will also be an interesting time for the Cats and Hawks. The end of 2009 or 2010 might not be a bad time for the Cats to let a couple of players be poached if we can get good draft picks for them. Could help us rebuild on the run. Hawks I think will be one of the few clubs that can ride through those years, you could have timed this window to perfection.

[Consumed]

mate check the stats we have the highest winning percentage this decade i think the hawks are like in 11th position and we won three minor premierships and two night flags so we havent done bad
You absolute tool. You cannot come on a Hawk site and talk about how close you came, being minor premiers and night flags.
We grew up getting those every year. For heaven's sake, we have players who have 5 day and 5 night premierships themselves. Big Deal. Port are serial underachievers.

Back on topic. Mundy may be a great pick-up. As example of the fickleness of football, look at Sydney. Picking up Mattner who is a copy of Kennelly and Malceski. Both go down with knees, and thankfully a perfect back-up.

If Birchall went down, who'd replace him? (like for like of course).

[Leather Poisoning]

Why would we be looking in other teams for solid forwards that aren't cracking it in the Forward 50, we already have 2 highly touted forwards on our own list that cant get a game up forward! :confused:

Dowler
Thorpe

- I think he means forwards who people know can play back, e.g. Mooney, Bradshaw, Waite. Still I agree its not the smartest idea!


Alright alright - I spoke without thinking or explaining myself.

The way I see it, the club has identified Thorp and Dowler as FORWARDS and they'll stay forwards forever. From the sounds of things, playing thorp at CHB is a temporary experiment until he gets match fitness up and can play in the forward line for the seniors.

SO I meant maybe we can find players that other clubs have identified as forwards, that are in fact much more suited to defence and just need to be given a go there. Right age, body size and match experience and we might actually get someone pretty cheap.

[winty]

Should be alot easier to keep the current team together. A problem I suspect Geelong to face in the coming years.

Love how Hawks fans always hope this will happen. Pity for you then that most of our premiership stars, along with the likes of Selwood and Hawkins, who were out of contract at the end of the year, have all either taken a pay cut, or in Selwood's case accepted a deal that is a lot less than he would get on the open market, just to stay at the club. I think of the 20 or so players who were out of contract, there's only 2 or 3 yet to re-sign, but I think they are just tying up a few loose ends before they put pen to paper. Only player I can see us losing at this stage is Prismall, and that's purely because of lack of opportunity.

Money is one thing. Loyalty is another. The nucleus of our side were recruited between 1999 and 2002, so have played all their AFL football together, and as a result are close both on and off the field. This loyalty to the club and each other is what will keep the team together, as our players aren't mercenaries.

[scottydeewah]

As I said, I dont think money will be the problem for the Hawks or the Cats. I think it will be opportunity. Say for example that Thorpe and Dowler dont make the grade as AFL backman, but they are going really well as forwards. With your current forward line all but set in stone, why would they stay at the Hawks and wait for an injury when other clubs will offer them a starting roll?

It was similar to why Charlie Gardiner, King and Callen left the cats last year and why many think we will lose Prissa this year. They just want more opportunity (and are getting it at other clubs).

This wont hurt our first teams much, but will kill off the "depth" that allows teams to easily cover one or two injuries.

The other factor may be the new teams. Say 2011-2012 comes around would a Buddy or Roughy be able to resist the money, etc thrown at them by a new club? It is so hard to tell. I know we all say we would want to be 1 team players but there is a lot of difference between 750k a year and 1.8M. More though it might be the mid range players that are poached, say a bloke like Lewis where the difference between 350k and 750k is even greater.

Especially if they already have a flag...then the "winning a premiership" might not be quiet as strong.

In the end though I think both clubs will keep the core of their players. Teams learnt a lot from Essendons mistakes and have learnt how to manage their lists.