Wasted years with Pagan?

[mightymightyblues]

Wow what an unbelievable improvement we have made compared to previous years! We already have the amount of wins we finished off with after 22 games in 2007 and we certainly aren't stopping there. But I can't help to ponder that If Ratten was to take over the reins a few years ago, that we could have been a genuine top 8 side by now as we were going nowhere quickly under Dennis. You could say that Pagan didn't have players like Judd, Kreuzer, Hadley Pfeiffer to pick each week and therefore gave him a much harder task. Though he did have Russel, Wiggins, Bower and Bentick who in the past few weeks have been fantastic and didn't do much under Pagan. My point is that it seems under Ratten they are enjoying their footy so much more and it is undeniable that Bentick and Russel and these type of blokes have improved significantly in all aspects of their game. So it gives me a feeling that Pagan did not utilize their talent well enough and put them in the positions that suit them. We also needed a coach that can maintain a relationship with the players rather then a authoritarian type of coach like Pagan who liked to distance himself from the players. Ratts is doing one heck of a job atm but I can't help but think where we could have been under him a year or 2 ago.
Thoughts?

[Mike_blues]

pagan = wasted
ratten = genious
cant wait till we have our whole defence bak up and running (bannister, thornton, jamison and dont forget walker)
i have a feeling walker is gonna explode next year. he is gonna be a superstar in thge years to come under ratten
cant wait:D
ps we have been in a winnable position in every match this year(even the brisbane game) so that says alot about ratten
as u sed the boys seem to be enjoying it
GO BLUES!! lets tame those cats like no 2morrow!

[parrot]

Maybe, but there's no real benefit from looking back now IMO. In Pagan's first year we made a mistake of picking up recycled players with our few late draft picks. The recruiting after that point was excellent, but the player development average in general. Ratten has been fortunate enough to be able to influence these young players development in a positive manner before irreversible damage occurred. One more year and it would have been too late. So we're lucky. Given the unbelievable draft penalties we coped, our list is in amazing shape now in terms of talent, and miles ahead of other teams like the Tiges who just can't rebuild despite full access to high draft picks for many many years because of entrenched incompetence. We're on the right track now, and that's all that matters. Long way to go though in terms of the only goal that matters - flags 17 and 18. Chance we'll play finals this year, but that's only important in terms of gaining experience at this stage. :)

[Setanta The Irish]

Maybe, but there's no real benefit from looking back now IMO. In Pagan's first year we made a mistake of picking up recycled players with our few late draft picks. The recruiting after that point was excellent, but the player development average in general. Ratten has been fortunate enough to be able to influence these young players development in a positive manner before irreversible damage occurred. One more year and it would have been too late. So we're lucky. Given the unbelievable draft penalties we coped, our list is in amazing shape now in terms of talent, and miles ahead of other teams like the Tiges who just can't rebuild despite full access to high draft picks for many many years because of entrenched incompetence. We're on the right track now, and that's all that matters. Long way to go though in terms of the only goal that matters - flags 17 and 18. Chance we'll play finals this year, but that's only important in terms of gaining experience at this stage. :)

i dont think people realize how truly important this would be for us

just playing one finals match would be worth half a season for the young guys.

[parrot]

i dont think people realize how truly important this would be for us

just playing one finals match would be worth half a season for the young guys.

Absolutely. :)

[Mike_blues]

i dont think people realize how truly important this would be for us

just playing one finals match would be worth half a season for the young guys.
dam straight

[pumped]

Think it is premature to hail Ratts and flog Pagan. I think Ratts is a much more stable person and certainly would connect better with the players. However whilst the side is playing better there is still miles to go imo. I believe our forward set up is pretty ordinary and our delivery into the forward zone still well below a good standard.

Personally I think Ratts needs to have another look at his game plan. There is just too much indecision down field and it is putting more pressure than necessary on the forward 6. It is a young team and there is improvement however just because we have won yesterday doesn''t mean that there is not great room for improvement in the short term.

Had Freo got up there would have been a linching on the Carlton board. This would have been stupid but to gloss over problems because we got up is also not that great. There are certanly more positives than last year but 4 wins should not have us don the rose coloured glasses.

[j-ham]

Should not have been given his second contract.

[Bluebear]

Pagan bashing needs to end.

It's almost 12 months since he left the club.

Wow what an unbelievable improvement we have made compared to previous years! We already have the amount of wins we finished off with after 22 games in 2007 and we certainly aren't stopping there.
After round 10 last year we had 4 wins on the board, and most of the losses we had to that point were actually closer than the ones we have had up til now.

I wouldn't call that an unbelievable improvement.......it's barely an improvement at all......and when you factor in Judd plus another year into Gibbs, Murph, Setanta and Bower..........how much of this so called improvement can be attributed to the coach.


But I can't help to ponder that If Ratten was to take over the reins a few years ago, that we could have been a genuine top 8 side by now as we were going nowhere quickly under Dennis. You could say that Pagan didn't have players like Judd, Kreuzer, Hadley Pfeiffer to pick each week and therefore gave him a much harder task. Though he did have Russel, Wiggins, Bower and Bentick who in the past few weeks have been fantastic and didn't do much under Pagan.
Wiggins wasn't required under Pagan and has hardley been "fantastic". We had Kennedy and Whitnall ahead of him as leqad up targets.
Bower would have done exactly what he is doing now under any coach IMO. We saw glimpses of this through last year and the only thing that has changed is he is a little more confident through experience. His game hasn't changed.
Bentick was an NAB rising star nominee under Pagan, but yes, dropping some weight earlier this year may have improved his game somewhat. Yet, he has only played half our games under Ratts.

Russell is the one I will give you as improving under Ratten......but I challenge you to find another poster that will agree his fom has been fanastic under anyone. He has improved under Ratts.....no question.......but he is still far from fantastic.

My point is that it seems under Ratten they are enjoying their footy so much more and it is undeniable that Bentick and Russel and these type of blokes have improved significantly in all aspects of their game. So it gives me a feeling that Pagan did not utilize their talent well enough and put them in the positions that suit them.
Benticks position hasn't changed.

We also needed a coach that can maintain a relationship with the players rather then a authoritarian type of coach like Pagan who liked to distance himself from the players. Ratts is doing one heck of a job atm but I can't help but think where we could have been under him a year or 2 ago.
Thoughts?
I agree with this last paragraph that Pagan's coaching style was outdated and didn't suit our list.
I don't think the examples you use make a very strong case, and the fact is Pagan developed most of the list you see out there plodding away each week.

Fisher, Betts, Carrazzo, Simpson, Waite (yes.....Pagan used him at CHB first ;)), Setanta, Scotland, Fevoal (turned from a selfish forward into a less selfish....almost team based forward......almost), Gibbs (many critical of his use in defence, yet he rarely allows his man to win possessions, something we genrally lack in the midfield).

Pagan is gone.
Ratten appears to be going well.

Read my thread on "The Run Home" to get an idea if we will really have improved greatly this season though.

IMO we have, but it probably won't be measured on the points table.

[jonoman89]

this season really has shown how shat a coach pagan was.

[as0l0]

one thing I have noticed is that the players who were coached by Pagan don't run. I mean they still don't run.

[koutamarto]

Pagan Was a terrible coach.
Wasn't so much the recruiting as the player development that i didint like. He seemed to also spend alot of time with his head in the sand.

[Dramoth]

Pagan's idea of a game plan was "We have a top flight forward, lets just bomb it long to him regardless of the 2-3 opposition players mobbing him".

Worked well with Carey, but he also had a very good defense in that team.

He destroyed the career of one of our promising young players when he influenced the recruiting board and got Mick Martyn in so he could get his 300 games.

Towards the end of his coaching career at the blues, he had clearly lost control of the players with his constant dragging of the young players when they made a mistake.

From there, the rot quickly spread to the senior players who believed that they could do what they wanted because they believed they were essential to the club and it's future.

If Pagan had been able to control the players a little better then Fev wouldnt have had the dummy chuck last year. Lance wouldnt have had all the problems with his weight because he would have had someone on his back about it.

Ratts has had to come in as a caretaker manager for the last few matches of the season and instantly you could see the improvement in the players attitudes. Ratts, in his role as assistant coach had already won the players because of his attitude towards the club. We might not have won the last few matches of last year, but the improvement was on show.

After the preseason work with the development coaches and Ratts continued belief that some of the players that people on here were willing to write off as failures, those players are now some of our best and are continiously improving every week

Bower for example is the biggest win for Ratts as far as I am concerned. Yes he showed some signs of his potential under Pagan, but he was used sparingly and was always dragged from the ground if he made a mistake. He was never really in Pagan's walk-on starting line up and as a result, his confidence and self-belief was never really there.

Now after being in the starting lineup for every match this year under Ratts, we are now saying that he is going to one of our best ever defenders and are likening him to Sexton and Dean.

It is amazing what happens to the self-belief of players if they know that the coach is going to trust them even if they stuff up. Because when they do stuff up, they know that they are going to be given the chance to rectify that mistake and they usually do...

2002 and 2003 under Pagan were years that were always going to be a struggle. 2004 we did ok, 2005, 2006 and most of 2007 were wasted years where a couple of our talented youngsters, who were never really given a chance or had their confidence destroyed, left the club.

I also wonder what would have happened with Norman if he had of had Ratts as his coach rather than Pagan who, after Angwin and Norman screwed up, never really gave Norman another chance. Maybe with a different coach, Norman might have gotten his head back together and would have gotten back to being a very good player again.

Were the years under Pagan wasted... yes and no... Are we always going to look back at those years and wonder why we kept him for so long... yes.

Will we sometimes sit and wonder over a couple of beers whether during the Collins administration when we were falling apart, was there some sort of plan concocted between Fat Andrew and Collins to get the Blues into such a position that the only way to save the club was to relocate to another state... as far as I am concerned... I think that I will...

We now have people at the club who truely love the club and know it's history and what it stands for. We are only going forward from here now and thats the best thing I know...

[legendtofski]

Pagan wrecked the careers of Norman and Livo, but he also had guys like Campo, Larnce and Lappin who in hindsight - or was it how they were used by the coach? - weren't doing as much as they should have.. You also had Kouda who was nursing a sore leg.

Mind you having CHRIS JUDD in your side as opposed to an injured and lazy Kouda makes a big bloody difference.

[Shambolic]

I dont rate Pagan and thought his second contract was a mistake (the 3 years) but look at the players Pagan had in his teams versus what we have now.

you cant make good teams out of rookie list players and hacks. Pagan had very little to work with.

How many players would be left from say 2003?

[Bluebear]

Pagan's idea of a game plan was "We have a top flight forward, lets just bomb it long to him regardless of the 2-3 opposition players mobbing him".
I'm not here to defend Dennis. He was bad for the club and its good he has moved on......
But has that game plan changed so much?

We won games last year with Fev acting as a decoy up at half forward.......and we have won a couple of gmaes this year where Fev was the main target inside 50.

What has changed?

Worked well with Carey, but he also had a very good defense in that team.

He destroyed the career of one of our promising young players when he influenced the recruiting board and got Mick Martyn in so he could get his 300 games.
A move that could have been misinterpreted as trying to protect that young player.
Glad you saw the REAL reason. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]

[jj1978]

[quote=Bluebear;11144696]I'm not here to defend Dennis. He was bad for the club and its good he has moved on......
But has that game plan changed so much?

We won games last year with Fev acting as a decoy up at half forward.......and we have won a couple of gmaes this year where Fev was the main target inside 50.

What has changed?

A move that could have been misinterpreted as trying to protect that young player.
Glad you saw the REAL reason. :rolleyes:

Instead of Pagan's bomb long game plan we now are trying to play tempo footy. If the opposition is flooding we now try to hold the ball and try to manufacture a goal with switch plays, short kicks, and handpassing to a runner.

Our defence is also gelling with the core players being players Pagan had at his disposal and misused.

The one glaring obvious change is that these players have faith in their coach and realise they can have a chat and talk to him and know he will take on board what they have to say. Ratten is a people person and personable with his players... if you can't have an amicable relationship with your boss you lose heart. Pagan didn't have good enough relationships or invested enough time in having a decent relationship with his players... and so a lot of them lost heart.

[blues_gibbo6]

cant think of anyone at carlton liked pagan coaching carlton, especially the money he was on when we were obviously going bankrupt. i wrote letters to carltons admin begging him to get the door, and the day he did, ran around like rocky bolboa with my hnads in the air. ratten may not be the next sheedy supercoach, but hes been very serviceable, and with alot of the carlton boys of old coming back down to the club, im sure they can help him out along the way. cant wait for the day defensive players are all healed up and ready to fire together, string a few games togther and i think people whobagged us for the worst defence, will start to take notice of how good our defence can actually be. for the first time in 6 years we actually have options down there (when everyone is injury free!) the next couple years with if we keep a solid team and i think we can start playing some really good footy. although wher art tho CHF is the only question mark

[WeninRome]

i think its important to note that pagan had little to deal with.

Ratten arrived at carlton with

judd
kreuzer
second year gibbs
third year murphey

also a developed

simpson
fisher
waite


don't forget that during the pagan era thornton was our number one defender.

there was no jamison, bower

i dont think many coaches would have made a deifference during the last 6 years.

ratts has arrived at the end of our bad times, pagan tried he's guts out.

I think its time we move on from this and accept that only place we are going is forward.

[Bluebear]

The one glaring obvious change is that these players have faith in their coach and realise they can have a chat and talk to him and know he will take on board what they have to say. Ratten is a people person and personable with his players... if you can't have an amicable relationship with your boss you lose heart. Pagan didn't have good enough relationships or invested enough time in having a decent relationship with his players... and so a lot of them lost heart.

Thats great, and I don't dispute any of that.

Back to the original context of the "What's changed" question regarding

Pagan's idea of a game plan was "We have a top flight forward, lets just bomb it long to him regardless of the 2-3 opposition players mobbing him".

.........my question still stands.:cool:

Maybe the ideas have changed. I see little evidence in the execution.

[thylacine60]

Reckon I might have seen something pretty symbolic of how things have changed at Carlton on Saturday. I always have the glasses on the huddles to see who's getting a spray, which players are consulting with which others, the general demeanor of the group and the assistants input.

As they broke up after the 3/4 time break when the game was on the line and frankly the crowd sensed another bad result, Braddles came up behind Ratts and gave him a sharp "gee up" rap on the backside and said a few words. Ratts didn't look up but he would have heard: "We're in this up to our balls, get 'em up and over". Think Craig would be giving Pagan a clip on the arse and be talking to him like a mate?

It showed me these two are tight and care for each other a lot. This is the sort of relationship forged from a history of playing together and experiencing all the highs and lows footy has to offer.

I think our assistants are as good a bunch as any going around. No-one really knows what input that little germ Libba had in his time but I swear I never saw him looking happy, excited or with any sense of urgency, intensity or inclusion.

I felt more confident as I put the glasses down and waited for the ump to bounce the ball.

Future. :thumbsu:

[bibi01]

Wow what an unbelievable improvement we have made compared to previous years! We already have the amount of wins we finished off with after 22 games in 2007 and we certainly aren't stopping there. But I can't help to ponder that If Ratten was to take over the reins a few years ago, that we could have been a genuine top 8 side by now as we were going nowhere quickly under Dennis. You could say that Pagan didn't have players like Judd, Kreuzer, Hadley Pfeiffer to pick each week and therefore gave him a much harder task. Though he did have Russel, Wiggins, Bower and Bentick who in the past few weeks have been fantastic and didn't do much under Pagan. My point is that it seems under Ratten they are enjoying their footy so much more and it is undeniable that Bentick and Russel and these type of blokes have improved significantly in all aspects of their game. So it gives me a feeling that Pagan did not utilize their talent well enough and put them in the positions that suit them. We also needed a coach that can maintain a relationship with the players rather then a authoritarian type of coach like Pagan who liked to distance himself from the players. Ratts is doing one heck of a job atm but I can't help but think where we could have been under him a year or 2 ago.
Thoughts?

ratten is doing a good job so far, but ATM he is doing enough to get by, there has been nothing exceptional about our performances this year.
i wouldn't say unbelieveable- maybe if we get up and beat geelong this week, then you can say unbelieveable

i'd be enjoying my football too if judd was on my side.

let's not forget ratten has been given:
his choice of coaches and footy staff,
he has pratt's money behind him,
spending in the football dept has nearly doubled in the last 18 months,
he has a CEO and footy manager who have 1/2 a clue
he has a football club who have finally decided working together is a lot better than working against one another.
each of the players you have mentioned are a year older, a year stronger, all with another pre season under their belt, most of them with 10 -20 games more experience.

pagan's time at carlton was not a success and he needs to take some responsibilty for that, but there were many, many at carlton who were also doing harm to the club.

[nutcase888]

yeah good to see a few ppl at least sticking up for poor old Dennis. Of course i have dealt with the fact that he was completely screwed over by the Carlton old guard that just wanted control of the club back for themselves, but then i see a thread like this and i have to have my say.

I like Ratts and i believe he will be a very good coach but i am one fan that believes we were better off with Dennis. So far this year we have beaten the depleted eagles (just), Fremantle (just), Melbourne (winless at the time) and collingwood (our best win for the year by a mile).

We got flogged by Brisbane in a game that showed we still have along way to go. We have lost to Essendon and Richmond and were beaten convincingly by Adelaide. We have played all the lesser teams and still have Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney and the bulldogs to come. The point is that i am satisfied our kids are progressing but anyone that thinks are performances are that much better from last year is deluding themselves, especially since we now have Judd (arguably the best player in the game), Stevens, Kreuzer and an extra year into Murphy and Gibbs.

Considering Pagan won 4 of the first 11 last year and came very close in several others, i wonder how many he might have got with the list that Ratts has this year.

[Kenny Hunter]

Anyone here blaming Pagan for "the wasted years " are fools

Why we moving up the ladder..

1/Pratt
2/Swan
3/Money flowing into the club
4/Players want to play for carlton again , and thats because of points 1, 2,3
5/the young players we drafted are finally showing results because they had a few pre-seasons now..

Pagan walked into the club and a bomb went off 5 mins later . We lost draft picks , we were fined heavily , we had a massive debt which nearly brought the club down and our off-field leadership was a joke . Pagan never had a chance...

[gbatman]

Pagan's game plan unfortunatly is being played in the reserves (Northern Bullants) and is making it tough there. With Teague as coach its not hard to see why has he was coached by Pagan all his career.

Pagans game plan involved kicking to position and not to leeds, it involved too much crash and bash and physical stuff and didn't suite talls and runners and had become out dated. It was too predictable and involved too much bombing long and bombing it forward.

While he didn't do a bad job and must be given some credit for the position we are in now and for sorting out some of the players such as Fevola.

Ratten's game plan is definatly much better, he has the players backing themselves, runnin, making space and being less predictable

[one eyed bluey]

Reckon I might have seen something pretty symbolic of how things have changed at Carlton on Saturday. I always have the glasses on the huddles to see who's getting a spray, which players are consulting with which others, the general demeanor of the group and the assistants input.

As they broke up after the 3/4 time break when the game was on the line and frankly the crowd sensed another bad result, Braddles came up behind Ratts and gave him a sharp "gee up" rap on the backside and said a few words. Ratts didn't look up but he would have heard: "We're in this up to our balls, get 'em up and over". Think Craig would be giving Pagan a clip on the arse and be talking to him like a mate?

It showed me these two are tight and care for each other a lot. This is the sort of relationship forged from a history of playing together and experiencing all the highs and lows footy has to offer.

I think our assistants are as good a bunch as any going around. No-one really knows what input that little germ Libba had in his time but I swear I never saw him looking happy, excited or with any sense of urgency, intensity or inclusion.

I felt more confident as I put the glasses down and waited for the ump to bounce the ball.

Future. :thumbsu:

right so a tap on the ass from the assistant coach to the head coach means we have a good future?:eek:
:pnah just joking I see your point.

Just thought i'd post some quality quotes from ratts on what football and carlton means to him.
Taken from Ratt's retirement press conference.

He understood the soreness he felt after a 10-kilometre run in Perth on Saturday to be a message from his body. Yesterday, there was another soreness as he passed the message on to his teammates. "I got about 10 words out and then . . . You look around and see Anthony Koutoufides. I played under 19s with Kouta. You see at the back Wayne Gilbert, the property steward. He was handing me hot dogs on Thursday nights in the under 19s. Andrew McKay came over . . . they're family."
Ratten said he obviously was proud of winning a premiership and best-and-fairest in the same year. But it tells much about that man that he reflects just as fondly on everyday football club life. "Some of my great memories are just training . . . mucking around, kicking around the corner with Fraser Brown," he said. "Trying to kick goals from the boundary . . . blokes used to get up in the gym and throw freezing cold water on the blokes down the bottom. Laughs. It's all blokes' stuff. It was just great."

Hopefully some of our blokes can really start to bond like this, when they start playing footy with their 'mates' thats when I think we'll start to see a successful side.
You can also see in this quote what ratt's beliefs about playing footy is all about, and his trying to past his knowledge onto the team.
Top bloke:thumbsu:

[Dramoth]

I'm not here to defend Dennis. He was bad for the club and its good he has moved on......
But has that game plan changed so much?

We won games last year with Fev acting as a decoy up at half forward.......and we have won a couple of gmaes this year where Fev was the main target inside 50.

What has changed?

yes we did win a couple of games with that game plan...

These days, we are not just bombing it into the forward line without thinking of options. We are not just rushing to get the ball into the forward line... we build it up and chose options.

A move that could have been misinterpreted as trying to protect that young player.
Glad you saw the REAL reason. :rolleyes:


Yeah... I saw that as well when we first recruited Mick... thought that he was going to stick around for a couple of years while we got Livo up to speed...

He played his 13 games, got to 300 and ____ed off...

Now the question is... did Pagan recruit him so he could get his 300 games or was he sucked in as well. If Pagan recruited him so he could get his 300, then Pagan owes the club a lot of money for that...

[sosos]

cant think of anyone at carlton liked pagan coaching carlton, especially the money he was on when we were obviously going bankrupt. i wrote letters to carltons admin begging him to get the door, and the day he did, ran around like rocky bolboa with my hnads in the air. ratten may not be the next sheedy supercoach, but hes been very serviceable, and with alot of the carlton boys of old coming back down to the club, im sure they can help him out along the way. cant wait for the day defensive players are all healed up and ready to fire together, string a few games togther and i think people whobagged us for the worst defence, will start to take notice of how good our defence can actually be. for the first time in 6 years we actually have options down there (when everyone is injury free!) the next couple years with if we keep a solid team and i think we can start playing some really good footy. although wher art tho CHF is the only question mark


Take a breathe mate!

Anyone here blaming Pagan for "the wasted years " are fools

Pagan walked into the club and a bomb went off 5 mins later .

No doubt, but his personality didn't cope well with the situation. Rather than being open to the changes, he hunkered down, put up the shields and proceeded to drag the club down his way or the highway.

This mentality did untold damage to the psyche of the club.

This is why the credit for any turnaround must go to Pratt who put the right people in charge.

[Mike_blues]

never rated him

[SurreyBlue]

Hopefully some of our blokes can really start to bond like this, when they start playing footy with their 'mates' thats when I think we'll start to see a successful side.

Here it is in a nutshell.:thumbsu:

[Bluebear]

yes we did win a couple of games with that game plan...

These days, we are not just bombing it into the forward line without thinking of options. We are not just rushing to get the ball into the forward line... we build it up and chose options.

At times.

There was plenty of "Bombing it in" over the past two weeks.
So is that Ratts game plan, or just the decision making and skill of the individual?
;)

[blue gunslinger]

Who's Dennis? Otherwise we can drag out Parko's mistakes as well
The Ratt Pack is here now.
Onward and upward

[sweet17]

Therreally are some mad people on these forums.

Pagan's CV will show a 2 time premiership coach and 7 consecutive prelims. He could coach.... and could coach well.

What we had was a club in disarray from shocking list management and penalties.

The current system meant there was nothing he, or anyone could do to turn it around in the short term. You can only replace about 10-15% of the list per year, and you're replacing those players with kids who will never be any match for the blokes they were up against for at least 3 years.

Funny how he supposedly destroyed the careers of these superstars, yet we now have probably the most rookie players in the comp playing regular footy.

Thornton
Bentick
Carrazzo
Setanta
then there's the rejects and late picks like;
Fish
Cloke
Betts
Banno
Scotto

and of course, the man whos career was finished - Fev.

At least 2 of our 4 wins so far can be credited to one man - The Juddmeister. The other 2 can be put down to the natural progression of blokes like AB, Murph and Gibba.

I'm not saying DP should still be coach, or that Ratts is no good, I'm simply saying that to think that no success = crap coach - is way too simplistic and no where near accurate.


He did make some mistakes, no doubt, but overall he had the toughest job in the comp for 5 years running.

[nutcase888]

Therreally are some mad people on these forums.

Pagan's CV will show a 2 time premiership coach and 7 consecutive prelims. He could coach.... and could coach well.

What we had was a club in disarray from shocking list management and penalties.

The current system meant there was nothing he, or anyone could do to turn it around in the short term. You can only replace about 10-15% of the list per year, and you're replacing those players with kids who will never be any match for the blokes they were up against for at least 3 years.

Funny how he supposedly destroyed the careers of these superstars, yet we now have probably the most rookie players in the comp playing regular footy.

Thornton
Bentick
Carrazzo
Setanta
then there's the rejects and late picks like;
Fish
Cloke
Betts
Banno
Scotto

and of course, the man whos career was finished - Fev.

At least 2 of our 4 wins so far can be credited to one man - The Juddmeister. The other 2 can be put down to the natural progression of blokes like AB, Murph and Gibba.

I'm not saying DP should still be coach, or that Ratts is no good, I'm simply saying that to think that no success = crap coach - is way too simplistic and no where near accurate.


He did make some mistakes, no doubt, but overall he had the toughest job in the comp for 5 years running.

your not wrong about that mate. essentially Pagan bore the brunt of everyones frustrations about the shape our list was in. i never felt as sorry for anyone in football as what i did for Pagan. He has had his reputation destroyed as a result of what happened during his time at Carlton and for the most part it was not his fault. Sure he did make some mistakes but who wouldn't when placed in the impossible situation and the entire time he conducted himself with proffessionalism and class. I wonder how some of this new modern coaches would have handled the situation if they were placed in it?

history showed that Pagan helped to stabilise the club when it was at it's most vulnerable. Then u have all these muppets that come along and say he destroyed careers. Who's careers did he destroy exactly? Then u have these guys that bag him for recycling those players even though he had no option as he had no top end draft picks. In any event in hindsight i think i would take Bannister and Scotland for a few late round draft picks.

It is so typical that the Carlton old guard now come along after most of the hard work has been done and are going to try and take all the credit for the work done by Pagan. Very typical of those front runners, i guess thats why they underachieved in the nineties. At least Ratts had the decency to acknowledge that Pagan had been a great coach.

[legendtofski]

Pagan will be remembered as the john Northey or Tony Jewel of his generation, sure he coached North to two flags, but he wasn't a genius nor a supercoach, otherwise he woulda swung Carlton around alot better than he did, a true 'supercoach' will take his magic to another club , like Lethal Matthews did.

i don't even rate Roos a genius coach. He's a johnny come lately, and he has stuft up the game with his chipping rubbish.

Still Pagan did the best he could and it didn't work. He set some foundations, but we needed a change and it has made a difference. Sure money talks and bulldust walks as Pratt has proven, but we still have to strengthen our resolve as we have only beaten rubbishy teams, I mean FFS we got smashed by the Tigers and bloddy the Bummers FFS and Shitkilda who are the biggest footy-fraud of the post-modern era and are a pack of cocaine sniffing patsies and rapists.

[one eyed bluey]

The state our list was in when pagan took over was diabolical!
Before Pagan came we tried to continue our finals success and overlooked introducing youth for experienced players.To further compound our lack of youngsters we had draft sanctions placed on us, pretty much stopping us from introducing any "quality" youngsters from the draft.
We gambled and lossed.

As for bagging Pagan for using recycled players during those dark years what choice to he have? We used all the rookie players we could and still manage to pick up some smokies in the draft with fisher, simpson,houlihan,waite and a few others im probably forgetting.
Another reason we had to use recyled players was because we had to try and field a competitive team at the very least. Imagine if the whole side was just kids and rookies we would've lost even more promising youngsters.
I have the utmost admiration for those players who battled for carlton in our darkest time and came through it and play today. Mainly thornton. Poor bloke was smashed everyweek and he came through it and is playing brilliantly today.

So no the years weren't wasted with Pagan, i think he did a remarkable job.

[jj1978]

The state our list was in when pagan took over was diabolical!
Before Pagan came we tried to continue our finals success and overlooked introducing youth for experienced players.To further compound our lack of youngsters we had draft sanctions placed on us, pretty much stopping us from introducing any "quality" youngsters from the draft.
We gambled and lossed.

As for bagging Pagan for using recycled players during those dark years what choice to he have? We used all the rookie players we could and still manage to pick up some smokies in the draft with fisher, simpson,houlihan,waite and a few others im probably forgetting.
Another reason we had to use recyled players was because we had to try and field a competitive team at the very least. Imagine if the whole side was just kids and rookies we would've lost even more promising youngsters.
I have the utmost admiration for those players who battled for carlton in our darkest time and came through it and play today. Mainly thornton. Poor bloke was smashed everyweek and he came through it and is playing brilliantly today.

So no the years weren't wasted with Pagan, i think he did a remarkable job.

I think you'll find Parko was coach when Houlihan got drafted (I recall him having a ripper in the quarter finals of 01).

And Waite was a father-son so that was a no brainer as the kid could play.

[thylacine60]

I think you'll find Parko was coach when Houlihan got drafted (I recall him having a ripper in the quarter finals of 01).

And Waite was a father-son so that was a no brainer as the kid could play.

I've forgotten now, were we seeded?

[jj1978]

I've forgotten now, were we seeded?

Haha... it was a sad week though (even though we won)... a couple days later it was September 11 (we all know what happened there). And then the next weekend at the G playing the Tiges, Kouta went down!

[EddieBettsIsAChamp]

Multiple ex-players have already come out and said that the players didn't really enjoy Pagan at the helm, so I think that the players change in moral has inspired their dramatic change in performance this year. A happy club off the field makes a happy club on the field.

[thylacine60]

Haha... it was a sad week though (even though we won)... a couple days later it was September 11 (we all know what happened there). And then the next weekend at the G playing the Tiges, Kouta went down!

Crikey, don't remind me.

[blue gunslinger]

I watched us beat West Coast and Freo. It has been a long time since I have been able to serve it up to the majority in Perth.
So I am living in the present and looking to the future. Lets move on and forget Pagan!

[nutcase888]

Multiple ex-players have already come out and said that the players didn't really enjoy Pagan at the helm, so I think that the players change in moral has inspired their dramatic change in performance this year. A happy club off the field makes a happy club on the field.

but how can u honestly say there has been a 'dramatic' change in performance? yes there has been some progress but i would hardly call it dramatic.

[Shambolic]

Whether it is dramatic or not is just semantics. We're improving but the question is whether Pagans years were wasted years.

In my view many of the problems in 2003 to 2007 were problems we were always going to have with a full tilt at the finals in 1999-2001 based on a very good core of ageing and good players, together with our recruiting policies of the late 1990s. We were always going to be crap for a period of time and then the penalties added 1-2 more years to it.

Whether Pagan added to the pain or not we'll probably only know in 2011 and if Ratten has got us in the Top 4 we'll probably say they were wasted, but with certain positives.

Who can tell - maybe in 2 years time we'll credit Pagan for making a tough guy out of Russell because for sure he was soft and now for sure he tackles and plays good inside football. Maybe in 2 years time we'll credit Pagan with all manner of things.

We were always going to be crap for a long period of time. I dont think anyone could deny that rationally.

[bibi01]

Multiple ex-players have already come out and said that the players didn't really enjoy Pagan at the helm, so I think that the players change in moral has inspired their dramatic change in performance this year. A happy club off the field makes a happy club on the field.

no one is happy when you are losing and most are happy when you are winning.

players coming out and saying they didn't like a coach or enjoy playing under him, IMO says more about the player than the coach.

carlton went from one extreme to another
pagan/brittan allowed the players to run the show, while pagan was the opposite.

there is no right or wrong style, but it shows that our players were the real problem as they were not able to adapt and history shows we had a whole heap of sooks down at carlton, who rather than pull their finger out and get on with the job, they wanted to b1tch and moan about the coach and play the victim.

[nutcase888]

Whether it is dramatic or not is just semantics. We're improving but the question is whether Pagans years were wasted years.

In my view many of the problems in 2003 to 2007 were problems we were always going to have with a full tilt at the finals in 1999-2001 based on a very good core of ageing and good players, together with our recruiting policies of the late 1990s. We were always going to be crap for a period of time and then the penalties added 1-2 more years to it.

Whether Pagan added to the pain or not we'll probably only know in 2011 and if Ratten has got us in the Top 4 we'll probably say they were wasted, but with certain positives.

Who can tell - maybe in 2 years time we'll credit Pagan for making a tough guy out of Russell because for sure he was soft and now for sure he tackles and plays good inside football. Maybe in 2 years time we'll credit Pagan with all manner of things.

We were always going to be crap for a long period of time. I dont think anyone could deny that rationally.

i agree it is just semantics but i think it is releavent in terms of answering the question put forward by the OP. If we had come out this year and made some 'dramatic' improvement i would concede that obvioulsy Dennis was doing a very poor job.
But i don't think our improvement has been dramatic rather we have made a little bit of progress which u would expect when your young players are another year older and u recruit the best player in the land. The fact we have won our first game in perth is not proof of dramatic progress IMO. The eagles have suffered a huge decline from last year. If i remmeber correctly two years ago we only just missed out on beating a much stronger eagles side in perth.

[Shambolic]

I still dont think one year - say if we make it to 8th place this year - says anything about Pagan. Pagan had a different list and different support and lived in the Carlton world where we had no money.

Pretty sure WCE didnt have Judd when we almost pipped them over there that day too.

[Shambolic]

there is no right or wrong style, but it shows that our players were the real problem as they were not able to adapt and history shows we had a whole heap of sooks down at carlton, who rather than pull their finger out and get on with the job, they wanted to b1tch and moan about the coach and play the victim.

It doesnt show that at all. It shows that the players we had and the Coach we had didn't work out at the time - to lay blame on one side ignores the other.

Id suggest they did pull their finger out but were routinely destroyed by far better lists.

[Dramoth]

i agree it is just semantics but i think it is releavent in terms of answering the question put forward by the OP. If we had come out this year and made some 'dramatic' improvement i would concede that obvioulsy Dennis was doing a very poor job.
But i don't think our improvement has been dramatic rather we have made a little bit of progress which u would expect when your young players are another year older and u recruit the best player in the land. The fact we have won our first game in perth is not proof of dramatic progress IMO. The eagles have suffered a huge decline from last year. If i remmeber correctly two years ago we only just missed out on beating a much stronger eagles side in perth.

What would you call dramatic improvement?

I think that players who we were all willing to write off as duds coming out and playing well for the team would be signs of dramatic improvement.

Yes, if Pagan had been left in place as the coach, we still would have gotten Judd, but would we be in the position where we are now even with him?

[bibi01]

It doesnt show that at all. It shows that the players we had and the Coach we had didn't work out at the time - to lay blame on one side ignores the other.

Id suggest they did pull their finger out but were routinely destroyed by far better lists.

have never blamed only on 1 side.

as I have said many times everyone involved at the club needs to accept responsibility.

on our day we could match it with any side in the comp, problem is we had 1 good week 4 bad weeks.
we had too many players taking short cuts.

stevens out on the drink
whitnalll out on the drink
fevola out on the drink
koutoufidies sitting around whinging about the coach
lappin sitting around whinging about the coach

collingwood proved on friday night it doesn't matter how good your list is, if you want the win bad enough and are prepared to do the hard work you can get the win.

carlton's list was not great and still is not great, but our was not that bad either.

[bigbadblue]

Anyone here blaming Pagan for "the wasted years " are fools

Why we moving up the ladder..

1/Pratt
2/Swan
3/Money flowing into the club
4/Players want to play for carlton again , and thats because of points 1, 2,3
5/the young players we drafted are finally showing results because they had a few pre-seasons now..

Pagan walked into the club and a bomb went off 5 mins later . We lost draft picks , we were fined heavily , we had a massive debt which nearly brought the club down and our off-field leadership was a joke . Pagan never had a chance...

This is by far the most correct post on this thread. Pagan had no financial support from above. If Ratts had come in and Smorgan was still pres we would still be on the bottom of the ladder with no Judd!