Our Forward Line or lack there of

[wattsyman]

I actually believe this deserves its own thread so here goes;

I have noticed in the past few weeks that our forward line has only really consisted of two players Tippet and Burton with lots of others rotating through their to help out. Early in the season before the other sides started targeting our youngsters physically and severely tagging our others we had the luxury of leaving Goody in the forwards and Macca down back however just recently the Goodwin/Mcleod/Edwards are now spending a lot of time in the midfield taking Goody away from the forwards leaving Tippet and Burton. As evidenced against WC and last night Tippet at this point will struggle against a #1 defender eg Glass and gadget arms. Burton at present is struggling to be both lead up forward up the ground and close to goal. This tells me we either need to move Tippet up say between 50 and centre (True CHF) and feed of him with our leading fwds out of the square eg Richmond with Richo at present. Or leave him in the square but give him a companion eg Seller/Swap the rucks or heaven forbid a macgregor (How has Kurt done since he was dropped ) In the same vein as a Franklin /Roughead, Rocca/Cloke combo release Burton and Gill/Hentshal to lead up into the square leaving Porps/Douglas/Stiffy etc to crumb.

Any other ideas would be worth hearing I think we really need to use Burtons athletic ability a bit more.

[Vince Van Mackay]

Nick Gill, the lead up CHF of choice.

Then to a much lesser extent Hentschel.

Forward line at present is a bit short.

[Ferris_rules]

IMO Burton will be suspended.

I think there could be a need to rush Gill in if fit.

Seems like a logical replacement. Has some "x-factor" to him. Including his kicking for goal, similar to Burton's on Friday night.

[doppelganger47]

IMO Burton will be suspended.

I think there could be a need to rush Gill in if fit.

Seems like a logical replacement. Has some "x-factor" to him. Including his kicking for goal, similar to Burton's on Friday night.doesn't look good for Burton. is Hentschel ready to play yet...because i don't trust Gill's kicking for goal... it just never goes straight and even if it was 10m out, i'd be worried he'd miss it. if neither Gill or Hentschel are ready, we could end up seeing Sellar or McGregor back. McGregor might get recall...

Douglas has been good as a small crumbing forward, though his goal kicking needs work. Tippett's goal kicking always needs work. Goodwin has played less in the forward line, because he's been needed and been very good in the midfield. with Burton's absence, Goodwin might be playing more up forward. if we're desperate, we could always bring in Taylor Walker...Otten or Danger, who can all kick goals.

[fightingdreamer88]

Gill is easily the best inclusion to make right now in my fact, but I think McGregor will get the call-up even though he just does not possess what we are looking for.

[wattsyman]

I would like to see as I think it will our future Tippet and Seller Leading from the goal square with Douglas at their feet and have any two of Burton,Hentschal,Gill,Walker etc operating between the half forward line to the half back line with Porps feeding of them with the other midfielders. At present though If Seller is not available/ready change the rucks in a pocket Maric has done well recently in the forward line and in the ruck and Griffo has played fwd previously quite well. Just out of the box a little Moran is supposed to be very Athletic could he play a lead up forward role when fit or even a wing type role similar to Richo at the moment?

[Willis]

Hentschel is still weeks away, remember he doesn't play this weekend because of the SoO match.

Gill is probably still a couple of SANFL games away from even being a chance of selection.

McGregor is the obvious choice, as bad as that would actually be...

[crows98]

Hentschel is still weeks away, remember he doesn't play this weekend because of the SoO match.

Gill is probably still a couple of SANFL games away from even being a chance of selection.

McGregor is the obvious choice, as bad as that would actually be...

I believe Jimmy Sellar will be given another opportunity to play as a key forward before Kenny is again. If both Goodwin (cheekbone) and Burton (suspension) miss the Richmond game and Jimmy has a good week on the track he may get a second game.

Nick Gill and Trent Hentschel are a few weeks away from selection but I don’t believe they will be selected on how they perform in matches rather than on the training track and just getting thought games. Paying consistently rather than performance will be the key indication on when they are selected

[Carl Spackler]

I have noticed in the past few weeks that our forward line has only really consisted of two players Tippet and Burton with lots of others rotating through their to help out. Early in the season before the other sides started targeting our youngsters physically and severely tagging our others we had the luxury of leaving Goody in the forwards and Macca down back however just recently the Goodwin/Mcleod/Edwards are now spending a lot of time in the midfield taking Goody away from the forwards leaving Tippet and Burton.
Good post wattsyman, exactly as I see it. NC was talking up a more attacking game plan earlier in the season but now that things have got a bit tougher and we have been under some pressure we have reverted back to the safety-first Crows 07 playbook.

At the moment we are almost 100% reliant on Burton and Porplyzia as marking targets, lead up forwards and as crumbers. We simply will not be able to kick enough goals consistently if this continues to be the case.

I would like to see the three players you have listed (in bold) above spend more time in the forward fifty and some more responsibility be given to Vince, Knights, van Berlo, Mackay, Thompson etc in the midfield.

Edwards in particular hasn't looked particularly dangerous (or interested?) the times he has played up forward and has continued to play his best football in the midfield but I feel he has the tricks to contribute as a small forward. There is always the temptation to go back to the tried-and-true and see Goodwin return to the middle but I feel we then become too reliant on our experienced guns.

[Sir Vlado]

I'd actually like to see Otten getting his debut soon, his form in the SANFL has been great.

[crows98]

I'd actually like to see Otten getting his debut soon, his form in the SANFL has been great.

So would I but he wont be played as a marking key forward.

I would like to see him come in this week for David MacKay and play on the wing.

[Crowman32]

If Walker was to play he could show the rest of our players how to kick straight for goals. Taylor Walker would be the best kick for goal in the club. But he definately wont play anyway. I doubt he will make his AFL debut this year.

[Kennyrocks]

Gill doesn't have the sheer brilliance that Burton can produce, and definitely doesn't have his ability to tear a game apart, regardless of opposition. He also doesn't have the aerobic capacity or amazing marking ability. All these factors and more mean that Burton can be forgiven somewhat for his inaccuracy, whereas Gill cannot. Plus he's still a better kick for goals. Gill is likable but I don't think he's the answer. Hentschel would be lovely, even Kenny being up there would help out Tippett nicely.

[wattsyman]

I believe Jimmy Sellar will be given another opportunity to play as a key forward before Kenny is again. If both Goodwin (cheekbone) and Burton (suspension) miss the Richmond game and Jimmy has a good week on the track he may get a second game.

Nick Gill and Trent Hentschel are a few weeks away from selection but I don’t believe they will be selected on how they perform in matches rather than on the training track and just getting thought games. Paying consistently rather than performance will be the key indication on when they are selected

If this is how it will be then he has to be allowed to lead not anchored to the square

[CrowMagnum]

Gill doesn't have the sheer brilliance that Burton can produce, and definitely doesn't have his ability to tear a game apart, regardless of opposition. He also doesn't have the aerobic capacity or amazing marking ability. All these factors and more mean that Burton can be forgiven somewhat for his inaccuracy, whereas Gill cannot. Plus he's still a better kick for goals. Gill is likable but I don't think he's the answer. Hentschel would be lovely, even Kenny being up there would help out Tippett nicely.
Have you actually seen Gill's high marking? It's a feature of his game and on par with Burton. And his aerobic capacity is very good, easily the best at North Adelaide and up there at the Crows. His kicking is poor but then Burton didn't inspire in this department last night so we wouldn't miss much there.

If he's fit, he's got to be a better bet than Ken Z-factor McGregor.

[budget]

look fellas i just cannot understand the game plan at all. kurt tippet is going to become a great player for us in the future! at the moment he looks exactly what he is a 1st year player with a lot of talent.we are already relying on him too much. surely we cant expect him to out mark the quality oposition put against him all the time.why the hell is he not instructed to lead?with the likes of van berlo passing to him he would get a lot more opportunities than sticking up one hand every time. we need to put stiffy in the forward line maybe rotate him in a forward pocket with edwards everytime he has been in the forward area the last two games he has added a good spark. but watching this dumb football of bombing it long just brings back bad memories of seeing macguinnes and mcdermott (sorry about the spelling) doing that and wasting forward thrusts.

[Carl Spackler]

look fellas i just cannot understand the game plan at all. kurt tippet is going to become a great player for us in the future! at the moment he looks exactly what he is a 1st year player with a lot of talent.we are already relying on him too much. surely we cant expect him to out mark the quality oposition put against him all the time.
Agree with this. We've asked an awful lot of Tippett the last couple of weeks against Glass and Fletcher. Getting a first year player to repeatedly stand under the footy and provide a contest for us is unfair IMO.

Unlike others on here, I would like to see Tippett split his time between key forward and ruck. Setting aside the fact that he already looks a more than handy ruckman, it allows him to get involved in the play, to run himself into the game and to get some touches and confidence.

It has been a pity for Tippett that McGregor's form was so poor and that Gill has struggled with injury.

[James_37]

Gill doesn't have the sheer brilliance that Burton can produce, and definitely doesn't have his ability to tear a game apart, regardless of opposition. He also doesn't have the aerobic capacity or amazing marking ability. All these factors and more mean that Burton can be forgiven somewhat for his inaccuracy, whereas Gill cannot. Plus he's still a better kick for goals. Gill is likable but I don't think he's the answer. Hentschel would be lovely, even Kenny being up there would help out Tippett nicely.

Few have the sheer brilliance and match winning capabilities of Burton when he is on fire, so I don't see why you are counting this against Gill. The bloke whilst not Brett Burton, IMO is pretty close to it, his athletic ability is very good, he is quick and has hands to equal Porplyzia, he is also the ideal height for a mobile key forward. His major downfall last year was his kicking, but then if you take his first game out of it, it was no worse than what Burton dishes up on a regular basis. I would love to see him back out on the park because he is a very dangerous player, just seems to struggle to keep fit.

Back to the OP, I think we definitely need an extra "tall" forward or two, not sure who it is at this stage, but we probably have 4 options in Hentschell, Gill, Sellar and Mcgregor and if Burton and perhaps even Goodwin by the sounds are rubbed out, then 1-2 of these must come in. Whilst Gill and Hentschell must be close, I'm not certain that this week will be the week for them to return, another week to regain match fitness and form may be still on the cards.

This leaves Sellar and Mcgregor, which will be interesting, I think as another poster noted, Sellar may get the opportunity before Mcgregor. Mcgregors form has apparently been good, but he's been played as a defender, not as a forward, when his defensive ability is not questioned, its his ability to play as a forward which was the reason he was dropped. Because of this and the fact that Gill and Hentschell shouldn't be far away, we may opt to give Sellar another taste of AFL footy, see if he can't make a better fist of it second time round. The other thing which may work against Mcgregor is that he plays a very similar game to Tippet and they both tended to get in each others way a little.

Tippet definitely needs some help from another tall, as really, he is our only forward who requires a KPD, the rest are often better matched up on by smaller players with the pace and athletic ability to keep up. A tall CHF would definitely come in handy, Gill IMO is our best option with Hentschell perhaps better suited closer to goal, but if Gill isn't ready I'd go Sellar and tell him to lead as often as he can, if he gets tired then perhaps he can swap with a Stevens or Maric/Griffin.

[Vince Van Mackay]

Playing Maric or Griffin up forward is a recipe for disaster, you know things are going bad when that happens, both are 'ok' pinch hitting on occasion, but neither are forwards.

[GlaCial]

No surprise that Tippett is struggling to perform week in week out in his debut year. He'll need some big bodies to take the heat off him.

Right at the moment I don't see where the help is going to come from. McGregor looks lost, and I'm not sure if he has a future.
Gill and Hentschell are not quite fit.
Sellar is not ready for AFL.

Who else is there?

[Kennyrocks]

Few have the sheer brilliance and match winning capabilities of Burton when he is on fire, so I don't see why you are counting this against Gill. The bloke whilst not Brett Burton, IMO is pretty close to it, his athletic ability is very good, he is quick and has hands to equal Porplyzia, he is also the ideal height for a mobile key forward. His major downfall last year was his kicking, but then if you take his first game out of it, it was no worse than what Burton dishes up on a regular basis. I would love to see him back out on the park because he is a very dangerous player, just seems to struggle to keep fit.

Yes, there is basically only one Brett Burton in the AFL with all his freakish talents combined into one gangly high flying package on this we agree. You're missing my point though, I'm saying that these factors mean we can forgive Burton for some slightly off kicking, whereas with Gill we cannot. I don't think Gill is close to Burton but thats my opinion.
Also, if you take out a reasonable percentage of a players games where they kick particularly badly then its naturally going to improve their stats on accuracy :cool:

[Kennyrocks]

Have you actually seen Gill's high marking? It's a feature of his game and on par with Burton. And his aerobic capacity is very good, easily the best at North Adelaide and up there at the Crows. His kicking is poor but then Burton didn't inspire in this department last night so we wouldn't miss much there.

If he's fit, he's got to be a better bet than Ken Z-factor McGregor.
Right, good on you :rolleyes:
Anyway, I was saying that McGregor would be good for Tippet, in case you hadnt noticed Tippet has been comprehensively smashed in the last 2 games, mostly because he has a) had the best defender on him or b) been outnumbered. This is most probably for two reasons-the rising star award has raised his profile meaning he gets more attention, and because he is the only tall contested marking option-Burton does not count because his contested marking is so typically random. Tippet is only young and very inexperienced. We are already asking too much of him IMO, he will have to work through the extra attention and the added expectation but now he needs some help. He's only just played 10 games for crying out loud.

Now, McGregor is very good at contested marking, even if he does not mark it he brings the ball to ground in the best spot for our crumbing forwards. He also is very good at holding out not only his defender but a team-mates, allowing them a better chance at a grab, often resulting in a very easy mark.
Now, lets put these two things together... Can you see the logic?

PS Putting Gill in the same category as Burton is just ridiculous.

[Kennyrocks]

Agree with this. We've asked an awful lot of Tippett the last couple of weeks against Glass and Fletcher. Getting a first year player to repeatedly stand under the footy and provide a contest for us is unfair IMO.

Unlike others on here, I would like to see Tippett split his time between key forward and ruck. Setting aside the fact that he already looks a more than handy ruckman, it allows him to get involved in the play, to run himself into the game and to get some touches and confidence.

It has been a pity for Tippett that McGregor's form was so poor and that Gill has struggled with injury.
Agree 100%. We have to help the bloke out by doing at least one but hopefully both of these things:
1. Tippet rotates more into ruck, getting him on the ball is important to get a touch and boost up a bit of confidence. The form of Griffen has been poor recently, meaning this is more likely.
2. Bring in an experienced tall marking forward to help the poor kid out, I suggest McGregor, he is more experienced, has a cooler head and is more suited to this role than Gill. Hentschel needs time more than anything and will probably be in the same boat (or at least he's parked in the same harbour) as Tippet. This looks more likely as Birdman is looking at around a months holiday it seems.
Its not fair to expect so much from a guy whos only just broken into double figures on his games played count, I think Craigy has gotten a bit carried away with Kurt and thrown him in a little too deep. This is easily forgiven, as it would be very very easy to do and Craig's development of players is usually spot on. However, I think we need to re-think how we're managing the big guy as his development is crucial to his future.

[Klug]

Difference in the last couple of weeks is our midfielders have been given limited time to look up, and spot forward targets. So they just bang it long on the boot on the head of Tippett and often 2 defenders, and expect a miraculous mark.

Earlier in the season they were looking up to spot options around CHF, and who can then either take the shot on goal, or pass to a Burton/Goodwin/Porplzyia on the lead.

I would like to see Gill owning the CHF zone as a leading forward, who would give us a good target. Plus he would be far enough away from goals to make his suspect goalkicking a non-issue

[GlaCial]

The way I see it, if Burton is suspended (and I am not convinced that he will be), then Jericho is the likely replacement.

Gill is not ready to come into the side, as I have doubts about his fitness and form. Right at this moment Hentschel is as good of a chance as Gill. Longer term, a fit Hentschel would get the job before a fit Gill.

[James_37]

Yes, there is basically only one Brett Burton in the AFL with all his freakish talents combined into one gangly high flying package on this we agree. You're missing my point though, I'm saying that these factors mean we can forgive Burton for some slightly off kicking, whereas with Gill we cannot. I don't think Gill is close to Burton but thats my opinion.
Also, if you take out a reasonable percentage of a players games where they kick particularly badly then its naturally going to improve their stats on accuracy :cool:

Thanks for explaining your point there because it wasn't particularly clear in your original post. I do think though that you are being extremely harsh on Gill, whilst he isn't Burton, he's pretty close to it IMO, and whilst they are on par with regards to goal kicking, Gill's field kicking has never really been in question, where Burton's quite often lets him down. The role required of Gill wouldn't be to kick the goals however, it would be to play as a link man between our half backs and our deeper forwards and frankly he has many more weapons than your man Mcgregor to fill this role, as in pace, equally if not stronger hands than Mcgregor, ability below his knees etc.

As for your last comment, surely you can't be that stupid:confused: Yes the bloke's only played 7 games, but the reason I take out his first game is for the reason that it was his first games, nerves would be high and wouldn't have been the first one to have a horrendous first game in front of the big sticks.

Mcgregor will probably be the one recalled, not that I necessarily agree with it because I don't think he and Tippet blend well at all, but I do hope he does well and rids the tag of "depth player", I just don't see it happening though.

[boffo]

we could play Stevens forward - think he did a bit of that on friday night

[Carl Spackler]

Just having a look at Richmond's forward line today - Kayne Pettifer, Nathan Brown, Joel Bowden, Shane Edwards... and there aren't really a couple of good match ups for Rutten and Bock.

Richardson is obviously their main target, but he is playing all over the place. Occasionally we saw Jay Schultz or Jack Reiwoldt up there but they spent their time predominantly in defence and aren't exactly power forwards anyway. Bassett or Stevens could easily cover them. Essentially Richmond are a small forward line.

So, is there an opportunity to use Rutten or Bock as a key forward this week? Particularly if Burton is absent.

[seababoon]

ah.. thinking outside the box.. i like your style..

i think bock would go to bowden if he is playing up forward, and rutten might play on whatever tall they'll rotate through the forward line? simmonds..?.. richo when he goes forward..

[James_37]

Just having a look at Richmond's forward line today - Kayne Pettifer, Nathan Brown, Joel Bowden, Shane Edwards... and there aren't really a couple of good match ups for Rutten and Bock.

Richardson is obviously their main target, but he is playing all over the place. Occasionally we saw Jay Schultz or Jack Reiwoldt up there but they spent their time predominantly in defence and aren't exactly power forwards anyway. Bassett or Stevens could easily cover them. Essentially Richmond are a small forward line.

So, is there an opportunity to use Rutten or Bock as a key forward this week? Particularly if Burton is absent.

We could try Rutten up forward, I think Bock's probably the best match up we have for Richo, as he's too strong for Stevens and probably too athletic/mobile for Bock and Bock would make him accountable. Not sure that we'd do it but really Rutten isn't necessarily required, Stevens and Basset could take Schulz and Riewoldt, maybe Neil could throw a spanner in the works and play Rutten forward.

[Scott Van Persett]

Our main problem in the last 2 weeks has been kicking accurately rather than anything else. 22 scoring shots against West Coast and 29 scoring shots against Essendon.

We basically have to kick straighter. One thing I am worried about is our set shots for goal. All the players walk in to kick rather than run in with some momentum. At the time they are kicking they are tending to lean backwards so the ball is going higher and shorter and they are not kicking straight through the ball from a virtual standing start so behinds are the result.

Also I think the night conditions with dew and slippery ball have not suited Tippett with his marking etc as at the moment he is inexperienced and has been up against Glass and Fletcher. However, unless it is raining, the daytime conditions at the MCG should suit him next week-look for a 4-5 goal haul if he plays in the forward line.

[James_37]

Our main problem in the last 2 weeks has been kicking accurately rather than anything else. 22 scoring shots against West Coast and 29 scoring shots against Essendon.

We basically have to kick straighter. One thing I am worried about is our set shots for goal. All the players walk in to kick rather than run in with some momentum. At the time they are kicking they are tending to lean backwards so the ball is going higher and shorter and they are not kicking straight through the ball from a virtual standing start so behinds are the result.

Agree here, watching a few of our blokes kick for goal, they looked very awkward and as you saw were leaning back a lot.

[GlaCial]

Our main problem in the last 2 weeks has been kicking accurately rather than anything else. 22 scoring shots against West Coast and 29 scoring shots against Essendon.

We basically have to kick straighter. One thing I am worried about is our set shots for goal. All the players walk in to kick rather than run in with some momentum. At the time they are kicking they are tending to lean backwards so the ball is going higher and shorter and they are not kicking straight through the ball from a virtual standing start so behinds are the result.

Also I think the night conditions with dew and slippery ball have not suited Tippett with his marking etc as at the moment he is inexperienced and has been up against Glass and Fletcher. However, unless it is raining, the daytime conditions at the MCG should suit him next week-look for a 4-5 goal haul if he plays in the forward line.

I don't care how they get the job done, as long as they get it done. Buddy Franklin hooks the ball like no-one else, but he still kicks 5 goals a game, because he knows he'll hook the ball consistently. Some of our guys change their kicking action every kick they take, so it's no wonder they don't kick goals under pressure.

And this is the very reason why I don't see why people like the idea of Gill coming into the side. Gill, like Burton is all over the place from set shots. Great athlete, tries hard, but gee I wouldn't be placing any bets on where the ball is going to go!

[subaru]

Told everyone who would listen we would miss Welsh ...............mmmmm:cool:

[smoovy]

I don't think there is anything wrong with our forward line, it is the same old chesnut...the way the ball is coming in. Over the last few weeks we haven't been coming through the corridoor enough and have been bombing the long ball in for Burton and Tippett. Our problem then has been a lack of a decent forward line crumber. Porps and douglas are the ones we have down there, but none of them are the classic small nippy forward.

If I had one criticism of our forwards it is that they don't take enough marks with their arms strethced out in front of them. Too many times on leads we get our marks spoiled when we attempt to take it on the chest.

[subaru]

Would it be possible to have two huge targets made up at each goal end and have supporters running behind the last row of seats to help the player line up - what is going on - i heard today 14 goals 37 points last 3 games - is that right.?????:eek:

[Vader]

For Pete's sake, we had 29 shots on goal. It's not like our forwards weren't finding the ball. The problem is their inability to kick it between the big sticks.

[Dogga79]

For Pete's sake, we had 29 shots on goal. It's not like our forwards weren't finding the ball. The problem is their inability to kick it between the big sticks.

Thats the key statistic. Being conservative at least 50% of the 20 behinds we kicked were genuine chances. We could have absolutely blown them out the water, even though we played a very average game.

[Carl Spackler]

For Pete's sake, we had 29 shots on goal. It's not like our forwards weren't finding the ball. The problem is their inability to kick it between the big sticks.
Vs Essendon.

At home.

In perfectly still conditions.

[Willis]

Vs Essendon.

At home.

In perfectly still conditions.

All reports suggested it was very dewy which made it harder so the conditions definitely weren't perfect. Not an excuse for the terrible kicking overall though.