Poker machines in Victoria making AFL clubs Millions

[ParraEelsNRL]

I love how the media and AFL fans shove the pokie thing down RL's throat, it shows every damn one of you as hypocrites.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22833608-2862,00.html

POKIES venues controlled by AFL clubs are stripping punters of more than $130 million a year.

The gambling blitz is led by league powerhouse Collingwood, whose 298 machines rake in about $27.5 million.

Victoria's 10 AFL teams now control 1414 pokies at 20 suburban venues -- 5 per cent of the market.

Those figures could surge again next year, when reigning premier Geelong is expected to take charge of a new 80-machine venture at Point Cook.

Annual player losses on each of the state's 27,500 pokies have climbed to $92,472 -- handing AFL-licensed venues $130.75 million for the past financial year alone.

The spoils are shared between the AFL clubs, the State Government, and pokies operators Tattersall's and Tabcorp.

Cats president Frank Costa yesterday conceded gaming machines were the lifeblood of his club.

Mr Costa said about $1 million of the club's $1.8 million profit from its record-breaking premiership season was derived from the 100 pokies at Skilled Stadium.

"Without that business going over the last 20 years, we wouldn't have a football club at all," he said.

"I wouldn't say we wouldn't have survived. We would have perhaps hung on but been one of those Melbourne clubs that is now threatened with demise or possible transfer."

Anti-gambling crusader the Rev Tim Costello last night called on AFL clubs to reduce their pokies dependence.

"Footy clubs are part of the community. They only function because of community trust in them," Mr Costello said.

"Pokies are tearing the fabric of those communities apart.

"Why don't we have club presidents with the moral leadership of Russell Crowe and Peter Holmes a Court, who have the courage to go cold turkey?"

Crowe and Holmes a Court, co-owners of the South Sydney Rabbitohs NRL side, have announced plans to dump all 160 pokies from the team's refurbished social club, which could cost the club several million dollars a year in lost revenue.

Melbourne, which controls 192 machines, is the second-ranked AFL club.

Punters have lost almost $18 million at its two venues.

Essendon is third, with losses of $17.6 million.

Battlers the Kangaroos trail the field on $3.7 million from a league-low of 40 machines, based at Telstra Dome.

Geelong is rated seventh, on $9.25 million, but recently won approval from the Victorian Commission for Gambling Regulation for a new social club at Point Cook.

It is awaiting final approval from Wyndham City Council.

Carlton yesterday announced a record $2.94 million profit, partly from its pokies interests.

Blues president Dick Pratt will learn early next year whether the VCGR will approve his application for a state gaming licence.

Mr Pratt, Australia's third-richest man, was fined $36 million last month for his role in a five-year cardboard box price fix with rival Amcor.

The VCGR must decide whether he is a suitable person to hold a gambling licence.

Were is the noise about this?

Why are AFL clubs being allowed to rake in Millions every year and nothing is said while RL clubs have been bashed over the head for decades?

Why are the NSW clubs the only ones getting these new taxes but the Victorian one are not?

I think it's a bit hypocritical of the people involved in AFL either being a fan, running a club, the code, or the media who bag RL for poker machines, yet they actually know how much money their own code rakes in from the same sources.

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/footballs-gaming-jackpot/2008/03/02/1204402272162.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

CARLTON
Machines 108
Gambler losses $10m
Community Benefit $1m

COLLINGWOOD
Machines 298
Gambler losses $28m
Community Benefit $2.5m

ESSENDON
Machines 100
Gambler losses $9m
Community benefit $1.5m

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Machines 138
Gambler losses $13m
Community benefit $1.8m

GEELONG
Machines 100
Gambler losses $9m
Community benefit $1m

HAWTHORN
Machines 75
Gambler losses $7m
Community benefit $1.8m


MELBOURNE
Machines 92
Gambler losses $9m
Community benefit $1m


NORTH MELBOURNE
Machines 40
Gambler losses $4m
Community benefit $0.1m

RICHMOND
Machines 157 Gambler losses $15m
Community benefit $1.8m

ST KILDA
Machines 83
Gambler losses $8m
Community benefit $1.1m

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/ffximage/2008/03/02/svPOKIES_wideweb__470x458,0.jpg

[Hoops]

Get with the program ParraNOID, you might of wanted to join the discussion 3 months ago.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418873&highlight=pokies

[anti.]

its funny because no one really gives a shit about NRL.

[woosh_era]

Yes, there are too many AFL clubs in Victoria... just like RL clubs in Sydney. They cant generate a large enough slice of traditional revenue streams so both groups court the one armed devil and its dirty cashflow rather than take the tough structural decisions...

[Northern_Swan]

Why are the NSW clubs the only ones getting these new taxes but the Victorian one are not?

Because the New South Wales government runs the state of New South Wales, and therefore makes policies and laws that are relevant to the New South Wales people, and hence the licensed clubs in Sydney. All of the clubs/pokies that you have mentioned are in Victoria where a different set of laws are in place for the Victorian people and Victorian clubs.

[genghiskhan]

Because the New South Wales government runs the state of New South Wales, and therefore makes policies and laws that are relevant to the New South Wales people, and hence the licensed clubs in Sydney. All of the clubs/pokies that you have mentioned are in Victoria where a different set of laws are in place for the Victorian people and Victorian clubs.

You might need to post a map of Australia and point out NSW and Victoria to him, then show that there is a state line between the two.

[littleduck]

I love how the media and AFL fans shove the pokie thing down RL's throat, it shows every damn one of you as hypocrites.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22833608-2862,00.html



Were is the noise about this?

Why are AFL clubs being allowed to rake in Millions every year and nothing is said while RL clubs have been bashed over the head for decades?

Why are the NSW clubs the only ones getting these new taxes but the Victorian one are not?

I think it's a bit hypocritical of the people involved in AFL either being a fan, running a club, the code, or the media who bag RL for poker machines, yet they actually know how much money their own code rakes in from the same sources.

Excellent thread. You nailed it. One of your best.

[zero]

Excellent thread. You nailed it. One of your best.
paranoid, self obsessed, and with spelling errors...a fairly typical parraeels post.

the difference is by degree, AFL clubs make a small part of their income from pokies, and dont rely on them at all. they certainly wont go to the wall if they were taken away.

and really, who cares? a few puritcanical tossers like fatprick smith might be all up in arms about the evils of gambling but the average football fan couldnt give a stuff if NRL and AFL clubs make some of their revenue off them... i sure dont.

good luck to em all, and good luck to the government if they decide to tax the hell out of em too, i couldnt care less

[zero]

and by the way, what has this got to do with the expansion of the AFL?

oh ____ all, shouldnt this perhaps be over at TFC?

[Professor Knowall]

Excellent thread. You nailed it. One of your best.
:D:D:D
You know things must be going bad for LD when he's praising parraNOID.

"... Why are the NSW clubs the only ones getting these new taxes but the Victorian one are not? ..." :D:D:D

Something to do with the state border, I guess!! And Victoria already had the extra taxes in place, you fool. Yep, parraNOID really nailed it.:rolleyes:

Just read the article properly. There's only 1414 pokies between all the AFL Vic clubs. How does that compare to the Panthers alone - never mind all the rest. And did you note in the article the almost $14 million going to the local community from the AFL venues (as a result of Victoria's pokie laws that have been in for years?)? I thought not.

The fact is that pokies still contribute only a very small part of AFL club revenue - small beer (or chips) compared to what we take in from gate takings and sponsorship. It doesn't dominate club revenue like the giant pokie palaces that keep the NRL clubs in Sydney alive with multi-million dollar handouts - a different level altogether.

BTW - This news is 2 months old. Did it take that long to sink into parraNOIDS sponge.

[Hodgepodge]

Why don't you post this in the bigrugby thread or wherever you nimrods go to swap brain cells?

[Father Jack]

I don't think that we bag the NRL clubs for having pokies, but moreso that they rely on them too much, meaning that when that rug is pulled out from under them, they are in trouble as they can't make money off their primary business, ie rugby league

[walhawk]

Because Geelong, for example, made $1m profit from pokies (or around 3% of the cost to run an AFL team), when the NRL clubs are getting 50% of revenue from their Leagues clubs.

[ChrisFooty]

It's a dark way of raising revenue, but it's effective. I think it sucks clubs like St.kilda and North Melbourne have the least number of poker machines, where as stronger victorian clubs like Collingwood and Richmond have more.

Something that can not be changed all that easily. Applying for extra poker machines with the current regulations would be fruitless.

[RussellEbertHandball]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/footballs-gaming-jackpot/2008/03/02/1204402272162.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

Football's $110 million gaming jackpot
Cameron Houston | March 3, 2008

VICTORIAN AFL clubs gouged more than $110 million from poker machine players last financial year and are increasingly targeting Melbourne's most vulnerable communities.

Monash University research also reveals massive rorting by clubs of their community benefit obligations, with several claiming player payments and "team maintenance" expenses in return for preferential tax treatment.

Victorian clubs retained in revenue one-third of all losses, or some $36 million, from 1191 poker machines in 18 gaming venues.

Collingwood Football Club comfortably topped the list of Victorian clubs, with pokie players losing an estimated $27.7 million at its five clubs and pubs, of which about $8.6 million was retained as revenue in 2006-07.

Venues operated by Richmond, Western Bulldogs, Carlton, Essendon and Geelong recorded pokie losses of more than $9 million and each received estimated revenue of more than $3 million.

So were did the other 2/3rds go? Vic govt pokie taxes?? Are they that high?

[JiMaRaS]

I prefer my wasted money to go to any club rather than to some greedy individuals.

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23811561-3102,00.html

Uproar at Brisbane Lions' pokie palace
James O'Loan
June 05, 2008 12:00am
BRISBANE Lions Football Club is pushing to build a ``pokie palace'' in Logan Shire, arguably the problem gambling capital of Queensland.
The multimillion-dollar club has lodged an application with Logan City Council to build an indoor entertainment facility with up to 200 poker machines, a bar, dining room and merchandise/bottle shop in the Springwood commercial zone overlooking the Pacific Motorway.

The decision was made after 130 possible sites were investigated during more than six years and, pending approvals, doors could open by mid-2010.

The site, nor details of the large-scale facility, were intended to be publicly announced for months.

Anti-gambling groups say the number of poker machines will inflict further` damage on the local community.

Counsellor and Relationships Australia Logan manager Cathy Martin said placing more pokies in the shire could devastate a community that Australian Bureau of Statistics figures show has more problem gamblers than anywhere else in Queensland.

"We see a lot of family breakdowns, job losses, clients committing fraud to service their addiction and adding more machines will just increase the incidences of problem gambling," Ms Martin said.

Queensland Treasury figures show 1342 pokies operating in Logan, with each machine gobbling up average winnings of $5221.04 in April - equating to $7 million in local punter losses.

This compared to the state average of $3350.43 a machine in the same month across 43,583 machines.

But Lions chief executive officer Michael Bowers told The Courier-Mail the proposal was an exciting development for members and it would be "really good for the area".

The Lions' March 14 application was lodged four weeks before Premier Anna Bligh announced an immediate freeze on gaming licences granted to clubs throughout the state.

Mr Bowers defended the club's application for 200 poker machines. He said the cap was "the best method to address ongoing concerns" and all guidelines for responsible gambling would be followed.

The Government is yet to advise if any club with poker machine licences can buy and then operate machines from other clubs, as happens in the hotel industry.

When asked how much money the machines would generate for the not-for-profit organisation that made $32.2 million in revenue last year, the Lion's chief said financial forecasts "were not for public consumption".

Ms Martin said 1.69 per cent of the adult Logan population, more than 3000 people, spend on average $12,000 each year on gambling.

The clubhouse will complement the Lions Den clubhouse at Woolloongabba for its growing 32,000 membership base. The proposed clubhouse will also include a merchandise store, cafe, lounge and 331 car parks and also courtesy buses.

Clubs, codes and people can see what is happening in Sydney now, why are sports clubs still trying to get pokie palaces?

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23817138-3102,00.html

Lions push tax break to buy gear for squad

Tuck Thompson and James O'Loan
June 06, 2008 12:00am

THE Brisbane Lions are asking members to use a little-known tax break to pay for playing equipment for the AFL club's multimillion-dollar squad.
And the Lions are not ruling out using some of the donations to help fund the licensed club it hopes to build at Springwood.

The football club, which reported a $1.1 million profit last year, has already received "several hundreds of thousands" of dollars though the federal Australian Sports Foundation.

The foundation was set up by the Hawke Labor government in 1986 so tax-deductible donations could be made to "non-profit" sporting groups.

Donors send tax-deductible contributions to the foundation with the option of naming their preferred beneficiary. The foundation, which has most of its operating expenses covered by taxpayers, has since handed out tens of millions of dollars in donations.

A total of 14 of the 16 AFL teams, playing in a competition that generates hundreds of millions of dollars in revenues, are now registered with the foundation.

Other registered organisations include the Queensland Rugby Union, schools such as Brisbane Grammar and Nudgee College and some of the nation's most prestigious golf clubs. No NRL clubs are registered.

Lions general manager Michael Bowers, in a recent letter to members, asked them to approach the foundation with donations to pay for equipment.

"We need ice vests, low-impulse magnetic machines for post-game rehabilitation and GPS watches to give players individual training programs," he wrote.

"Please note, donations of $2 or over ... will be tax deductible."

The Lions have declared themselves a non-profit organisation even though their annual report shows they reaped a $1.3 million profit last year. Because the money was not paid to shareholders and was ploughed back into the organisation, they could claim a tax-exempt status.

The club is under fire for pushing to build a clubhouse with 200 poker machines in a shire with arguably the worst problem gaming in Queensland.

Mr Bowers has acknowledged the facility could be financed with money from the foundation.

Sports Minister Kay Ellis has no plans to reform the program, saying she supports measures "to get more sports money flowing into sporting facilities."

The foundation has no obligation to inform the public of where its donations are distributed.

"That's a confidential arrangement," foundation general manager Rod Philpot said.

The foundation board decides on where donations are directed but any requested beneficiaries are kept in mind.
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Hmmmm

[Beaussie]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23817138-3102,00.html



Hmmmm

Let me guess, Tuck Thompson and James O'Loan are Rugby League journos who like many of their colleagues in NSW and QLD in the media are threatened by anything to do with the AFL in the northern states. :rolleyes:

[ParraEelsNRL]

Let me guess, Tuck Thompson and James O'Loan are Rugby League journos who like many of their colleagues in NSW and QLD in the media are threatened by anything to do with the AFL in the northern states. :rolleyes:

Conspiracy theories huh Bea?

[Beaussie]

Conspiracy theories huh Bea?

Just more paranoid articles from Rugby League journos in NSW and QLD. You'd think they would be writing about their centenary of league but no, just the evil AFL and its plans for expansion in NSW and QLD.:rolleyes:

What I get from that article is NRL clubs have been stupid not to follow the lead of AFL clubs regarding the establishment of these foundations. No surprises there though.

[Ice-Wolf]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23817138-3102,00.html

A total of 14 of the 16 AFL teams, playing in a competition that generates hundreds of millions of dollars in revenues, are now registered with the foundation.

Hmmmm

AFL clubs are Not For Profit clubs all money they generate goes back into the club to improve facilities provide better service to members, run community programs ect. AFL clubs are owned by their members and the members do not receive dividends.

NRL clubs setup the same way could do the same, unfortunately the NRL clubs don't own their leagues clubs.

[Ice-Wolf]

Just more paranoid articles from Rugby League journos in NSW and QLD. You'd think they would be writing about their centenary of league but no, just the evil AFL and its plans for expansion in NSW and QLD.:rolleyes:

What I get from that article is NRL clubs have been stupid not to follow the lead of AFL clubs regarding the establishment of these foundations. No surprises there though.

Not sure about stupid, they probably just don't qualify.

[Belnakor]

I like this quote

"Why don't we have club presidents with the moral leadership of Russell Crowe and Peter Holmes a Court, who have the courage to go cold turkey?"


Obviously haven't realized that AFL has expanded outside NSW/VIC.. considering noone in WA can legally own pokies.

[Ice-Wolf]

an AFL club takes 300m to run a year? that sounds incredibly high.

Maybe you should redo you maths at cause 100% works out to approx 33M

[Belnakor]

Maybe you should redo you maths at cause 100% works out to approx 33M

indeed :)

The NRL guy is right though - if a club makes X from pokies, and their profit is X*2 you could really say that 50% of their profit is from pokies.

Keeping the club financial is one thing, but you have to wonder why clubs like Collingwood feel the need to own pubs etc.

[philhawk]

NRL clubs setup the same way could do the same, unfortunately the NRL clubs don't own their leagues clubs.

Nailed it in one.

[Belnakor]

So presumably if an NRL club made like 6 million, it could go straight into someone like Rusty Crowe's pocket?

[RussellEbertHandball]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23817138-3102,00.html

That's a bit of a nothing story. The ASF has been around for years and smart sporting organisations, schools and community groups have been using the eligibility rules especially since about 1997 when the Howard government upgraded the ASF's role and expanded the eligibility criteria.

"We need ice vests, low-impulse magnetic machines for post-game rehabilitation and GPS watches to give players individual training programs," he wrote.

"Please note, donations of $2 or over ... will be tax deductible."

This equipment eligibility has to be approved by the ASF. Read a few of these pages and educate yourselves about the ASF. I did a bit of work looking at this for my old amateur club in Adelaide and setting up a Foundation.

http://www.asf.org.au/

This page tells you about how and what to apply for;

http://www.asf.org.au/how_register/apply

He's an example of how Port used the ASF for it's second eligible project. The first was to build it's main facilities building in 1997/98 and second after the 2004 flag to improve it's medical technology equipment

http://www.asf.org.au/who/case_studies/case_studies/port_adelaide_football_club

And here is the ASF's latest newsletter available on line, March 2007, showing ASF grant recipients July 2006 - January 2007 This is a list of sporting organisations, shires and councils, community groups and schools who shared in the $8.51 million that the ASF issued in discretionary grants in the period July 2006 to January 2007.

http://www.asf.org.au/information/index/newsletters/new_newsletter

Only one amateur Rugby League club was smart enough to take advantage of this program whilst around 150 sports clubs and community organisations took advantage of the program in that particular 6 months.

[Professor Knowall]

Not sure about stupid, they probably just don't qualify.
Membership based clubs (hence not run for private profit) qualify. North Melbourne is the only privately owned AFL club.

I think the NRL has a mixture, with some memberhip based, others run for private profit - which includes all the Queensland clubs.

BTW - Notice the hopelessly biased tone of that News Ltd article - " The Lions have declared themselves a non-profit organisation even though their annual report shows they reaped a $1.3 million profit last year. Because the money was not paid to shareholders and was ploughed back into the organisation, they could claim a tax-exempt status.
Yeah, well the Lions didn't "declare themselves" a non-profit organisation. The fact simple is that the Lions ARE a non-profit organisation (which is why they qualify).

This is in contrast to the Broncos, which is privately owned for private profit by - guess???

[RussellEbertHandball]

AFL clubs are Not For Profit clubs all money they generate goes back into the club to improve facilities provide better service to members, run community programs ect. AFL clubs are owned by their members and the members do not receive dividends.

NRL clubs setup the same way could do the same, unfortunately the NRL clubs don't own their leagues clubs.

There is nothing stopping RL clubs from applying for an eligible project because of the way they are set up.

Also the Leagues Clubs ie the licenced clubs are not for profit clubs and are exempt from income tax because of their community service status. You are incorrect on the profit/tax status, the ASF eligibility status and the Leagues clubs are a separate legal entities from the football club, so it is the football club that qualifies. AFL clubs tend to have one company for the football club and one for their social club and that hasn't stopped them setting up a foundation. Also there is nothing stopping Penrith for example setting up the Penrith Foundation Ltd.

The Port group is the PAFC Ltd, The Port Adelaide Football and Community Club inc (ie social club) and the PAFC Foundation Ltd.

[RussellEbertHandball]

Membership based clubs (hence not run for private profit) qualify. North Melbourne is the only privately owned AFL club.

I think the NRL has a mixture, with some memberhip based, others run for private profit - which includes all the Queensland clubs.

BTW - Notice the hopelessly biased tone of that News Ltd article -
Yeah, well the Lions didn't "declare themselves" a non-profit organisation. The fact simple is that the Lions ARE a non-profit organisation (which is why they qualify).

This is in contrast to the Broncos, which is privately owned for private profit by - guess???

I don't think you understand the income tax rules and the ASF eligibilty rules.

[Ice-Wolf]

Membership based clubs (hence not run for private profit) qualify. North Melbourne is the only privately owned AFL club.

I think the NRL has a mixture, with some memberhip based, others run for private profit - which includes all the Queensland clubs.

BTW - Notice the hopelessly biased tone of that News Ltd article -
Yeah, well the Lions didn't "declare themselves" a non-profit organisation. The fact simple is that the Lions ARE a non-profit organisation (which is why they qualify).

This is in contrast to the Broncos, which is privately owned for private profit by - guess???

Technically they are right the Lions at one stage were a privately owned business, They aren't anymore though.

[RussellEbertHandball]

Membership based clubs (hence not run for private profit) qualify. North Melbourne is the only privately owned AFL club.

As I said above, you don't understand the rules. From the Sept 2006 ASF newsletter, see page 4 of 8, North Melbourne Football Club, VIC, was eligible for an ASF discretionary grants issued in the period July 2005 to June 2006.

http://www.asf.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/121675/ASF_News_Sept_2006.pdf

[Glory and Fame]

So presumably if an NRL club made like 6 million, it could go straight into someone like Rusty Crowe's pocket?Technically yes, although Souths isn't making a profit at the moment.
It's one of the problems the NRL have at the moment is the governing body of the game is half privately owned. So half the NRL's profits go to News Ltd, while the AFL is able to use their profits to expand into Gold Coast and West Sydney.

As for the pokie issue, it's probably more of a factor for NRL clubs because they've got more of them; but I'm not comfortable with either sport having them. Pokies are a cancer on our society, and I'd be happier if sport was to exist without the proceeds of broken families and embezzled businesses.
But it's not really an AFL expansion issue. No-one has yet suggested that either Gold Coast or West Sydney will have poker machines; although if that is suggested at some later stage this thread may be bumped.

[RussellEbertHandball]

Technically yes, although Souths isn't making a profit at the moment.

Depends on how the Constitution and Rules of the company that owns South Sydney are written. If they say that no dividend is to be paid out of club's surpluses they will probably maintain the tax exempt status of the club. If that's the case, then Crowe and Holmes a Court don't get any of the profits. The Broncos are publicly listed, so you would think their rules allow for payment of dividends.

It's one of the problems the NRL have at the moment is the governing body of the game is half privately owned. So half the NRL's profits go to News Ltd,

That's not quiet right. In the Roy Masters article on News Ltd and the NRL, titled How News Ltd sunk its claws in League from March 2007, which I have linked plenty of times previously, he points out that News Ltd takes out profits of $8mil a year on their initial investment of $130mil in the partnership with the ARL. Not sure what the ARL take out each year to reinvest in the game at various levels. I suspect if someone stuck $130mil into the AFL they would want some form of annual dividend.