View Full Version : June 2008 - Where We're At
konstas_87
14 Jun 2008, 17:54
After watching the mighty Lions get soundly beaten by a far-superior Doggies outfit, where does everyone think we are at?
Personally I'm certainly not panicing, but there are a few things that are very obvious about where the team is at.
*Obviously our A-grade midfielders are all slow, but that's never going to change so all we can really do is wait for the likes of Sherman and Corrie to develop into full-time midfield players.
*We are not going to cause any damage against top 4 teams if Brown OR Bradshaw aren't playing. Mitch Clark's future has alot of upside but he's currently inadequate when it comes to holding up a key position post.
*We are a MUCH better side with the inclusions of Ash Mcgrath and Josh Drummond.
The commentators spent half the game claiming Drummond was having trouble kicking out, but i thought he did really well considering we were getting flogged around the ground.
Ash Mcgrath is at the mature stage of his career now where he is consistently performing. He runs through the guts, has great pace, and more often than not top notch disposal to hit up a forward target.
*Stiller found alot of the ball today, but seemed a bit lazy with his disposal at times, and was not strong enough in the contested situation in comparison to someone like Corrie, who showed great strength at the contest.
*Shermo is back, but as was rightfully pointed out by the commentators, he needs to finish off his hard work with good disposal more consistently
*Notting and Johnstone are both at the stage of their careers where they should be playing well consistently, and they have been. Both of them still have the tendancy to have really quiet games though, which they perhaps need to work on a bit.
obviously alot of these points are criticisms, but most of them are things i think can be improved on which is a positive.
what's everyone else's thoughts??
BigCat2
14 Jun 2008, 17:59
The "draft quick midfielders with good skills" bandwagon?
TheBrownDog
14 Jun 2008, 18:00
The "draft quick midfielders with good skills" bandwagon?
Steele Sidebottom. :thumbsu:
konstas_87
14 Jun 2008, 18:02
i don't think our forward or back halves could have done much different today (obviously besides another forward target).
it was in the middle that we got slaughtered.
Vipertooth
14 Jun 2008, 18:13
i don't think our forward or back halves could have done much different today (obviously besides another forward target).
it was in the middle that we got slaughtered.
I concur
Gabbatoir
14 Jun 2008, 18:42
I believe this loss could affect us one of two ways.
One:
This belting/shallacking hits Brisbane's pride, and we see a VERY VERY VERY big bounce-back next week to play out of our skins.
Two:
We go into our shells similar to last season against Richmond and the long losing streak.
We need it to be option one.
Good players v. the dogs.
Sherman
Stiller: Managed to find the footy. Not many of the side were able to do so. Disposal was poor, but then, whose wasn't?
Corrie: Hard at it, committed.
Drummond: 14 rebound 50s says it all.
Brown: Tried his heart out as usual.
Power: 16 contested posessions, only player to really hold his own around the contests.
God I wish they had have given him something more special for his 150th. He tries his guts out week in week out.
We missed Riska.
notting18
14 Jun 2008, 18:46
We are in the 8, but not there ready to match it with the Big Boys in the 4 yet. Sometimes ladder positions can be a little deceptive on a team's "true" place, but I think our 6th to 8th is about right.
William C
14 Jun 2008, 19:59
Cooney absolutely tore us apart. Game was won in the midfield, they smashed us in most 50-50 situations ... also their rebounds from their defensive half was brilliant.
For the lions, we still have problems with skill level .. we missed far too many targets which were costly against the hard running dogs.
Given that the kangas just lost to freo, we should be able to make the finals.
5th or 6th is what we should be looking at. Im afraid today just proved to us that were not a top 4 team :(
I know that sherman was great today, but how good was cooney? .. we really needed someone to shut him down with a heavy tag, (which selwood tried??)
That was our 7th Fourth quarter loss in a row iirc? :confused: .. very disappointing . :thumbsd:
Hopefully we can turn it around with bradshaw and riska back next week
EurekaKid
14 Jun 2008, 20:11
Dogs, hawks, cats, swans have us covered. Crows we will find out next week and Collingwood are on about par. In other words our ladder position is a pretty good reflection of where we are at.
Smashed in the midfield, yes. I didn't hear the commentators bc was at the game but if they were potting Drummond then they're having a wank, he was our best IMO. He didn't "struggle" with the kick ins, he just took his bloody time. Often, our boys were not giving him a target, so he waited for one to present. Far more often than not he found a target. He was the shining light back there.
Fact is, the ball was almost constantly in the Dogs forward line. I thought, given that fact, that the backline stood up very well. Our problem today was the midfield. It's painfully obvious that we rely heavily on S.Black in the middle, and yes we did miss Rischitelli badly today.
Clearly, also, our forward line needs more than one target. Gabbatoir was right, JB tried his guts out. Unfortunately, no one else stood up in the fwd line. Mitch Clarke will not be a premiership forward. He may be a premiership roving back flanker, though. He has a future, it's just not as a band aid solution forward.
Overall, the result was disappointing but from the POV of where we're at, which is the point of this thread, it could be a blessing in disguise. The Lions are an improving side, and this shows them clearly where they need to improve now. On that note, the positives are that A) we have 10 rounds to the finals to improve, and the dogs have showed us what we need to do, and B) we didn't pencil this in as a win. We thought this was a probable loss, and we learn a lot from it, and improve further. Better this to happen now than R22 or first week of finals.
Gabbatoir alluded to the same thing, that we either learn and improve from this or go into shells. Personally, I'd take VERY short odds that this Lions outfit learns from this and improves.
This kind of thing can often be looked back at as something that helped shape an outfit. Rest assured, those Lions have ambition, and now they have a bit of wounded pride.
blackpowerlappin
15 Jun 2008, 00:22
No need to panic - they are a big chance to win the flag. It is clear after today we need to be quicker in the midfield- they had tonnes of pace that we could not match. We also got smashed in the clearances, so if you don't get it, you can look very slow. I thought we were pretty good down back as usual.
Our kicking efficiency was at 45% during the first quarter, doesn't matter what you do when your efficiency is at that level.
I think the other thing we are lacking is a Robert Murphy, Ryan O'keefe type who can run up and down the lines all day mark like key position forwards and have excellent finishing skills. One of them would be handy.
After watching sflicking through the Swans/STk and Hawks/Adel games tonight I think Sydney may have the 4th spot.
BigCat2
15 Jun 2008, 00:37
I think the other thing we are lacking is a Robert Murphy, Ryan O'keefe type who can run up and down the lines all day mark like key position forwards and have excellent finishing skills. One of them would be handy.
Good point. Looking at our list, we don't really have someone who's suited to that role in our senior side. Out of untried youngsters, perhaps Collier or Clouston could do that. Henderson would be a more traditional KPP sized lead up CHF.
Good point. Looking at our list, we don't really have someone who's suited to that role in our senior side. Out of untried youngsters, perhaps Collier or Clouston could do that. Henderson would be a more traditional KPP sized lead up CHF.
But it won't happen overnight, so long as we're patient it's OK.
speed isn't really the issue for us i think as we have plenty of that in the mid (rhan, corrie, power and sherman has a bit of toe) but disposal efficiency is severely lacking for us. the doggies get away with having no decent key forwards cause their mids can hit the crumbers lace-out and also kick goals. we really only have black, power, drummond and Macdonald who can find guys by foot with the rest having a pretty deplorable kicking efficiency, it won't be good enough come finals. Now we minimise this disadvantage with out tackling and intense pressure and very good key forwards but against a stellar midfield like the bulldogs, we just can't handle them. I think we need to find another player like drummond who has the aerobic capacity to play midfield next draft, IMHO or maybe push JMac into the midfield when begs come back.
At this point in the season there seems to be four distinct groups:
- The top three: Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs. All very much in the premiership hunt.
- The chasers: Collingwood, Sydney, Adelaide. Able to beat one of the best on their day, could be spoilers in September.
- The "not-quite-there"s: Port, Carlton, Richmond, Roos, Saints. Battling for the last top eight spot.
- The others: Melbourne, Freo, WC, Essendon. Too late for them this season.
We seem to be hovering just below the chasers without actually being one of them. We haven't beaten any of the top three, and though we seem able to challenge them for two to three quarters we can't pull off the win. The most likely reason to my mind is because pretty much all of our second string midfielders (Adcock, Brennan, Rischatelli, Sherman, Stiller, Selwood) are still ranging from solid to average to uninspiring. They've all shown the potential they have in previous years, but none of them have been living up to it on a week-in week-out basis this season.
If this season continues on in the current vein we'll probably finish sixth or seventh and be out of it by the second week of the finals. While disappointing, this isn't necessarily the end of the world. The rest of this year and those one or two weeks of finals should provide invaluable experience for those named above. Hopefully we can see the rewards next year or even earlier.
Old Den
15 Jun 2008, 11:04
Hey!what's with all the pessimism guys - Leigh said LAST year that during the "good run"the team played as well as any time he'd been at the club
What's changed?
Bradshaw is back
Clark is fit and showing great signs of improvement,judged over ALL his games this year
Shermo is looking a lot like the old Shermo
A lot of younger players have up to 12 games more experience under their belts
We are firmly in the eight - by 2 games in fact
Chins up everyone - look to the future with confidence!
Yeah let's not slit the wrists just yet. OK so the doggies gave us a towelling, a pasting, a football lesson.
BUT - the Lions did not play well, and the doggies are at FULL STRETCH.
The challenge for the Doggies is to hold this form for another 15 odd weeks. That's as good as they can go. No improvement left in them. In horse racing terms they're at peak fitness and peak form, the trainer has to hold their condition for the rest of the Spring.
The Lions have not yet reached their peak. Still improving. OK so we got beaten 10 lengths yesterday but we're green, may need blinkers. Clearly have ability but didn't really show it yesterday.
Be patient, the Cox Plate (GF) is still 15 weeks away. Plenty of time for the trainer to get the horse right.
Hey!what's with all the pessimism guys - Leigh said LAST year that during the "good run"the team played as well as any time he'd been at the club
The teams we beat in the run:
West Coast
Melbourne
Carlton
Collingwood
Kangaroos
We then lost to Hawthorn and Geelong in the last three weeks. With the exception of last year's WC, they were all teams that we should beat. We've basically extended the "good run" through this year - we're beating teams we should beat, and losing to teams we should lose to. Last year we were losing and drawing to teams we should've beaten.
Clark is fit and showing great signs of improvement,judged over ALL his games this year
Still hasn't shown anything when we attempt to play him at FF.
Shermo is looking a lot like the old Shermo
Minus decent finishing and any overhead marking.
I've deleted the stuff that I agree with. I think the pessimism this week is because after the last month we'd gotten ahead of ourselves. We just got firmly reminded that our Top 4 hopes were just that - hopes at the moment.
I like where we are this year. We're bridging the gap between us and the best teams, but unless everything clicks we're not going to be a threat in September and people are upset at being reminded of that. :)
Teams tend to have off days.
Geelong got towelled by 80+ doesnt mean they are not going to be a force come september. I am not rating ourselves on par with Geelong but we are way better than what was on show yesterday. There was an evident urgency among players who were close to the ball to get rid of it.
Dont remember which commentator mentioned it, the Western bulldogs created an impression that there is very less time for our players to dispose the ball off. And we got sucked into this mindset for all 4 quarters. I remember Power and Hooper trying weird stuff in F50 as if they were going to be tackled any moment now, while they had plenty of time.
As Leigh said - we dint get it right for whatever reason, have to lick our wounds and move on. But we are definitely better than yesterday's performance.
Cousin Jed
15 Jun 2008, 12:01
The teams we beat in the run:
West Coast
Melbourne
Carlton
Collingwood
Kangaroos
We then lost to Hawthorn and Geelong in the last three weeks. With the exception of last year's WC, they were all teams that we should beat. We've basically extended the "good run" through this year - we're beating teams we should beat, and losing to teams we should lose to. Last year we were losing and drawing to teams we should've beaten.
And yet 2 of those teams that we should beat played in preliminary finals.
And yet 2 of those teams that we should beat played in preliminary finals.
And that's why we're still awesome. :D
I'm just saying a fair few people got ahead of themselves after the last four weeks, and came back to earth with a bump after yesterday.
The other consideration is that we have historically struggled against teams that play a similar brand of football to us but have the stronger bodies and/or better skills through a bit more experience in the middle. This used to be (and still is) Sydney, but after watching the game yesterday I'd add the Bulldogs to that list.
Monkey Daniel
15 Jun 2008, 12:47
Talk about getting sucked in by the media.... Gerard Healy giving the Lions thumbs up for Top 4 last week, would be interested to know what he thinks now. Definitely had a shocker yesterday as all teams do. Even during the glory years of 2001 to 2004 we lost games. Remember the Carlton game before we started the streak in 2001?? Anyway at this stage we'll end up between 5th and 8th, hopefully 5 or 6 to have first up home final. If we get a good run with the injuries, look out for a huge 2009 and 2010. :)
Old Den
15 Jun 2008, 12:55
And yet 2 of those teams that we should beat played in preliminary finals.
And the odds were 9 to 1 against beating West Coast before the game and they played finals football later
We also drew with Sydney who played finals football later
And drew with Port who played in the Grand Final
And I refer again to Leigh's words of praise
OK - that was last years - this year we couldn't beat Hawthorne or Geelong,but had stout efforts in those games and I would have loved to have played West coast in,say,round 6 instead of round 1
As to finishing,Shermo is not Robinson Crusoe in that regard so far this season,significant improvement in that by some others in the second half of the season will be a nice bonus
I was quite concerned about ruck depth when Beau couldn't front up but feel a lot happier after seeing what Mitch has shown there
Yeah,lets cop our kick in the bum from the Dogs - we get another crack at them at the Gabba later in the season - lets give them something to go on with then
I'm sure the post-mortems on this site after the Carlton game in 2001, and possibly the West Coast game in 2003, would have been similar to this week's.
I'm not suggesting this team is anywhere near the class of 2001 or 2003 (it clearly isn't), but I am prepared to at least see what they can do against Adelaide next week, with their backs to the wall, before judging them too harshly. You might remember that after the Carlton game in 2001 we also played Adelaide at home and just fell short with a much-improved performance- hopefully we can do something similar this week (but actually win this time!).
This thread is like a bunch of people waking up the morning after with massive hangovers and vowing never to drink again.
Games like Saturday’s are all part of a team’s growth. We occasionally copped the same sorts of thrashings leading up to our glory years.
Game to game form will always fluctuate but as the youngsters develop the overall trend is up.
The "draft quick midfielders with good skills" bandwagon?
Steele Sidebottom. :thumbsu:
No need to panic - they are a big chance to win the flag. It is clear after today we need to be quicker in the midfield- they had tonnes of pace that we could not match. We also got smashed in the clearances, so if you don't get it, you can look very slow.
<COUGH> "Roll up, Roll up! All our welcome, We have cookies!"
I'm sure the post-mortems on this site after the Carlton game in 2001, and possibly the West Coast game in 2003, would have been similar to this week's.
I'm not suggesting this team is anywhere near the class of 2001 or 2003 (it clearly isn't), but I am prepared to at least see what they can do against Adelaide next week, with their backs to the wall, before judging them too harshly. You might remember that after the Carlton game in 2001 we also played Adelaide at home and just fell short with a much-improved performance- hopefully we can do something similar this week (but actually win this time!).
Good post. After that loss to Adelaide I stated that we would never win a flag in my life time:o.
This thread is like a bunch of people waking up the morning after with massive hangovers and vowing never to drink again. Speaking of which.........:o
Games like Saturday’s are all part of a team’s growth. We occasionally copped the same sorts of thrashings leading up to our glory years.
Game to game form will always fluctuate but as the youngsters develop the overall trend is up.
Agree. I am far from despondent. I did not particularly like yesterdays effort but Mathews coached teams are not prone to put many of those in too often. Also lets all not underrate the Bulldogs who are outstanding at this time. If I was offered our present position at the start of the year as of now I would have taken it.
Warwick
15 Jun 2008, 18:00
Massive, massive game against Adelaide next week.
Carlton and Hawthorn did us a big favour by beating a couple of teams above us. Forget top 4 for now, but 5th and 6th (with a home final) is still very much in the picture.
TheBrownDog
15 Jun 2008, 18:02
Carlton nipping at our heels now though too Warwick.
They are 4 points behind us and will go in favorites for their next 3 games.
Geez we really need to beat the Crows.
I like the horse racing analogy. One thing that Leigh is a master of is peaking the team in September. I think that's the main reason for our success years. It's also something these unproven coaches (by that I mean coaches that haven't got 1-2 premerships under their belt) have to display. Can they keep it going for 15 weeks?
Warwick
15 Jun 2008, 18:12
Carlton nipping at our heels now though too Warwick.
They are 4 points behind us and will go in favorites for their next 3 games.
Geez we really need to beat the Crows.
They have a very tough draw after that.
They play Sydney, Bulldogs, Adelaide, Port, North, Brisbane, and Hawthorn in the run home.
Carlton nipping at our heels now though too Warwick.
They are 4 points behind us and will go in favorites for their next 3 games.
Geez we really need to beat the Crows.
Carlton are this weeks Brisbane
We are falling into the same trap as last season. Gameplan looks one dimensional at the moment with hoping for Browny to do it all in the forward line. IMO, if bradshaw is not coming up next week, we should try something different and play browny a little up the field. Let Clark and Hendo roam the forward line. We have to find new marking targets in our forward line. I guess unless its forced upon our mids, they will keep looking for Brown.
Going with the usual plan without Bradshaw will get us sucked into Craigy's defense tricks. Hope Leigh has something up his sleeve for Crows.
Cousin Jed
15 Jun 2008, 21:56
Carlton are this weeks Brisbane
Exactly my thoughts.
Hope Leigh and Leppa run a session with midfielders and our backline about kick-ins. It pains to see Drummond clutching the straws when looking for options.
Warwick
16 Jun 2008, 00:07
Hope Leigh and Leppa run a session with midfielders and our backline about kick-ins. It pains to see Drummond clutching the straws when looking for options.
Our kick-ins have been a problem for 4 years. We are terrible at them.
The most frustrating thing is to see us wait and wait, and then chip it to a bloke in the pocket who has less options.
Grimreepah
16 Jun 2008, 00:59
The Carlton game in 2001 is an interesting comparison. We were also 7-5 and in 7th spot that year as well.
It's fairly obvious that we are not one of the top few teams at this point in time, but some people are talking like it is destined to remain that way for the rest of the year. Teams can improve within a season.
Our kick-ins have been a problem for 4 years. We are terrible at them.
The most frustrating thing is to see us wait and wait, and then chip it to a bloke in the pocket who has less options.
The annoying bloody thing is we have a laser boot taking the kick-ins. Players have to move their a** and give him options.
The interesting thing that i noted in the Dogs game is how Eade could rejig his midget forward line. Aker was playing the small forward but in the last quarter, compared to all other mids he had fresh legs. He moved to the center and if i remember correctly got 3-4 clearances.
Is it possible for Hooper or Corrie to match it ?? not sure.
Except for maybe our last quarter where we were terrible all over the ground, I thought the first kick of our kick-ins were fairly effective. Drummo took a long time, but I don't mind seeing him wait to find that free guy if it means spotting someone up on the 50 instead of just panicing and kicking it to the pocket.
I reckon it was our second kick/ handball that quite often let us down. The dogs are such a quick and fit team, we just didn't have the legs to play on like we did against Carlton, or offer targets further up the ground, and we got smashed in the contested ball so basically there wasn't much left.
I don't think Clark deserves the bagging he's getting either. Looked like he only got a handful of opportunities, the midfield gave him very little to have a go at, and if their not honouring your leads, why bother? Can't judge him on one game where we got flogged. If he had an extended run in the forward line, I reckon we'd see some magic.
Did anyone else think that Black was spending a lot of time getting kicks in the forward or back half and very little on ball? We looked very weak without him, Riska, TJ and Poss firing through the middle.
konstas_87
18 Jun 2008, 17:16
There's a good little 3 and a half minute clip on afl.com.au at the moment of Browny talking about exactly where he thinks we are at.
Nothing earth shattering but still interesting, i think he knows we arent a top 4 team just yet.
Lions still emerging: Brown (http://bigpondvideo.com/AFLTV/58747)
if that link doesnt work just go to afl.com.au and it's under "latest videos" on the front page.
campbell
18 Jun 2008, 17:24
We are falling into the same trap as last season. Gameplan looks one dimensional at the moment with hoping for Browny to do it all in the forward line. IMO, if bradshaw is not coming up next week, we should try something different and play browny a little up the field. Let Clark and Hendo roam the forward line. We have to find new marking targets in our forward line. I guess unless its forced upon our mids, they will keep looking for Brown.
Going with the usual plan without Bradshaw will get us sucked into Craigy's defense tricks. Hope Leigh has something up his sleeve for Crows.
Agreed.
I would love Bushy in the forward line this week.
I think the next month will tell us where we really are. I dont think thats even a top 8 team the way we played on the weekend. I saw the Carlton match as well, and guess what, they were far far better than we were.I feel dirty saying that. but its true.
I think the next month will tell us where we really are. I dont think thats even a top 8 team the way we played on the weekend. I saw the Carlton match as well, and guess what, they were far far better than we were.I feel dirty saying that. but its true.
I watched that game as well, but the thing to remember with Carlton is that they always play about 25% better against Collingwood as against anyone else. Much like us, to be honest.
TheBrownDog
18 Jun 2008, 18:34
I watched that game as well, but the thing to remember with Carlton is that they always play about 25% better against Collingwood as against anyone else. Much like us, to be honest.
Yeah, agreed.
If you always use a team's worst performance compared to another team's best performance, you can pretty much make the case that the Demons are better than Geelong.
Grimreepah
18 Jun 2008, 18:52
Yeah, I don't think there's much sense in basing your opinions on how good a team is on one game.