Kreuzer vs Leunenberger...Who's been better so far?

[Juddernaut08]

If you asked me this at round 4; I would've said the 'berger' in a heart-beat. When people talked about expectations for Kreuz this year; i thought that even being a no.1 pick; as a big-man he'd be spending most of 2008 in the 2's.
On the otherhand; there was word going round the big L was the next Cox; and I thought in his second year he would give Kreuz something to aspire to in 09.

Yet after 11.5 rounds; I look at Leue play; he struggles to get possessions; and when he does his effectiveness is abysmal. Also; his tap-work hasn't set the world on fire either.
So after 11.5 almost 12 rounds...Kreuzer or Leueneberger?

[Juddernaut08]

Seriously...why isn't Brisbane playing him? Is that other young ruckman better?

Kreuzer is only in his 1st season; bu has already played more games then the Berger. Krezuer has already one a game off his own boot (3 goals in the last quarter)
I think it's pretty safe to say the Big K has already eaten the berger...

[smiddaz123]

Josh Fraser (Kruezer Sr) had better stats in his first couple of years than Cox (Luenberger Sr).

[Hodgepodge]

Leuenberger/Natanui will be the two best ruckman next year, Kreuzer reminds me of Josh Fraser in that he's neither a great ruckman nor a great forward.

[BlueDW]

Leuenberger/Natanui will be the two best ruckman next year, Kreuzer reminds me of Josh Fraser in that he's neither a great ruckman nor a great forward.

And you remind me of a person with an iq of 12!

[BlueDW]

Leuenberger/Natanui will be the two best ruckman next year, Kreuzer reminds me of Josh Fraser in that he's neither a great ruckman nor a great forward.

What is it with your infatuation with the Carlton footy club mate? Being a Hawthorn supporter, were you born on Grand Final Day 1987 or something? Why dont you focus more on Hawthorn and perhaps less on Carlton, you may enjoy your life more if you do that! :confused:

[delirious1]

Seriously...why isn't Brisbane playing him? Is that other young ruckman better?

The season ending Knee Injury?

He has been playing well, a few factors however.

1.Leuenberger started playing football at 16
While Kruezer has more "Football Ability" Leuenberger is an Athlete who has shown he is VERY capable being drafted at No 4 in the "Super Draft"

You forget that not only does this bloke is as athletic as a mid, hes quicker then a lot of them.

2.Carltons Ruck Stocks, Its easy to out-shine Cloke, while Brisbane still have Charman.

Fraiser V Hille, Dominating as an 18 year old isnt the end all for being the better ruckman

However if i was a carlton supporter i would be pleased with Kruezer, I would probably still want Leuenberger over him

[Hodgepodge]

What is it with your infatuation with the Carlton footy club mate? Being a Hawthorn supporter, were you born on Grand Final Day 1987 or something? Why dont you focus more on Hawthorn and perhaps less on Carlton, you may enjoy your life more if you do that! :confused:

What are you talking about? I just think Leuenberger's a better ruckman, am i not allowed to vote for him?

[BlueDW]

What are you talking about? I just think Leuenberger's a better ruckman, am i not allowed to vote for him?

Sure you can. But your blatant dislike for everything Carlton football club, is boring in the least.

Is even commented on by non Carlton supporters, as in the Judd v Buckley thread. In which you suggest that you have a soft spot for CFC. You lie through your teeth mate, and the more you go on with it, the more stupid you appear!

But having said that, we do live in a democracy, in which everyone has an opinion. Just wish you could be more balanced in your views. If your views are going to be so blatantly biased, please post on Bay 13, for that is what it is for I believe.

[Hodgepodge]

Sure you can. But your blatant dislike for everything Carlton football club, is boring in the least.

Is even commented on by non Carlton supporters, as in the Judd v Buckley thread. In which you suggest that you have a soft spot for CFC. You lie through your teeth mate, and the more you go on with it, the more stupid you appear!

But having said that, we do live in a democracy, in which everyone has an opinion. Just wish you could be more balanced in your views. If your views are going to be so blatantly biased, please post on Bay 13, for that is what it is for I believe.

Just my opinion that Leuenberger is better than Kreuzer, and a lot of people agree with me. I like Carlton, i'd like to see them make the 8 one year.

[BlueDW]

The season ending Knee Injury?

He has been playing well, a few factors however.

1.Leuenberger started playing football at 16
While Kruezer has more "Football Ability" Leuenberger is an Athlete who has shown he is VERY capable being drafted at No 4 in the "Super Draft"

You forget that not only does this bloke is as athletic as a mid, hes quicker then a lot of them.

2.Carltons Ruck Stocks, Its easy to out-shine Cloke, while Brisbane still have Charman.

Fraiser V Hille, Dominating as an 18 year old isnt the end all for being the better ruckman

However if i was a carlton supporter i would be pleased with Kruezer, I would probably still want Leuenberger over him

I think they are different players mate, although I do agree with a lot of what you say.

Kreuzer will be more of a winner of the footy than Luey, and perhaps more of a goal kicking option. Luey however may be a better pure ruckman, in that he will win more tap outs etc. Depends on which is more important. As a carlton supporter I am happy with Kreuz, but I think that Lions supporters have a lot to look forward to with Luenberger.

[BlueDW]

Just my opinion that Leuenberger is better than Kreuzer, and a lot of people agree with me. I like Carlton, i'd like to see them make the 8 one year.

My arse, at least have the courage of your convictions mate. You cant talk your way out of a situation that you have behaved yourself into.

[Hodgepodge]

That's your opinion. I will certainly be cheering for your team against the Bulldogs this weekend, but i think i will be disappointed again.

[BlueDW]

That's your opinion. I will certainly be cheering for your team against the Bulldogs this weekend, but i think i will be disappointed again.

Mate, I really couldnt give a rats whether you cheered for Carlton or not, because your oninion is basically irrelevant.

[Hodgepodge]

Mate, I really couldnt give a rats whether you cheered for Carlton or not, because your oninion is basically irrelevant.

My onion is irrelevant? What? I mean i don't like onions either but i'm sure they have at least some use.

[dirtywhitepacker]

Mate, I really couldnt give a rats whether you cheered for Carlton or not, because your oninion is basically irrelevant.

Angry, angry little Ant...

Luey for me because I hate Carlton. No need to put the real reason why I think Luey because Calrton fans will just say "You voted for Luey because you hate Carlton" anyway. Nice poll, ruined by morons...

[blues4flag]

That's your opinion. I will certainly be cheering for your team against the Bulldogs this weekend, but i think i will be disappointed again.

:rolleyes:

I would feel embarassed to wear any carlton supporter gear in public now. The club's a disgrace.

[JasRulz63]

In my opinion, Leuenberger will be a better ruckman, and will be able to carry a ruck by himself, Kreuzer will be a better all-round player, but personally, don't see him as Carlton's no. 1 ruckman for his career, don't see him as being able to carry a team's ruck by himself. Kreuzer will be able to pinch hit in other positions better than Leuenberger, like CHF or something.

[murph#3]

Leuenberger/Natanui will be the two best ruckman next year, Kreuzer reminds me of Josh Fraser in that he's neither a great ruckman nor a great forward.

podgey get a life will ya? do you seriously think people care about your opinion anymore? all you do is go into EVERY SINGLE thread about carlton and bag the carlton player and praise the other(s). yes podgey, that's right people do realise after a while and people now know that it's only a matter of time before you come on to the latest carlton thread and bag the carlton player. get a life.


fwiw, i'd much prefer kreuzer over leunberger anyday. i think the only two things berger has over kreuzer is his height and his speed. other than that i think kreuzer kills him in terms of footy smarts, work ethic (though berger is also good at this), kicking skills, versatility, marking ability, one-percenters, mobility, goalkicking and is a better ruck technician. both players will be stars of the comp and i can't wait until we finally get some good ruck duels again (with berger, kreuzer and now naitanui). we haven't bloody had any since the mid 80s.

[Hodgepodge]

:rolleyes:
haha, that second quote was taken out of context :thumbsu:

[Hodgepodge]

podgey get a life will ya? do you seriously think people care about your opinion anymore? all you do is go into EVERY SINGLE thread about carlton and bag the carlton player and praise the other(s). yes podgey, that's right people do realise after a while and people now know that it's only a matter of time before you come on to the latest carlton thread and bag the carlton player. get a life.


fwiw, i'd much prefer kreuzer over leunberger anyday. i think the only two things berger has over kreuzer is his height and his speed. other than that i think kreuzer kills him in terms of footy smarts, work ethic (though berger is also good at this), kicking skills, versatility, marking ability, one-percenters, mobility, goalkicking and is a better ruck technician. both players will be stars of the comp and i can't wait until we finally get some good ruck duels again (with berger, kreuzer and now naitanui). we haven't bloody had any since the mid 80s.

And now how is your opinion less biased than mine? ;)

[Grimreepah]

IMO Kreuzer's average contribution towards games has been greater, but Leuenberger's best has been a lot better than Kreuzer's best.

[Grimreepah]

i think the only two things berger has over kreuzer is his height and his speed. other than that i think kreuzer kills him in terms of footy smarts, work ethic (though berger is also good at this), kicking skills, versatility, marking ability, one-percenters, mobility, goalkicking and is a better ruck technician.

You're kidding. Kreuzer's great strength is his motor and that he has a mature body for a young player. He may have the edge in other areas in terms of marking and mobility, but to say he kills him is nonsense. I would have thought Leuey is clearly the better ruck technician.

[tigers_of_old_08]

My onion is irrelevant? What? I mean i don't like onions either but i'm sure they have at least some use.

What a hilarious thread! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Claude Balls]

If I was a Carlton supporter at the start of this year, I would have been fairly dissappointed with how the previous two drafts had panned out. Based on Gibbs' performance in his debut year, I felt the Blues should have taken Luenberger with pick 1 in '06, and Cotchin with pick 1 in '07.

Now I feel a little less sure, though I'd still rather Berger and Cotchin.

Kruezer has been impressive, though I don't think he has shown anything that suggests he will be more than a Josh Fraser type of player. Solid up forward, solid in the ruck, and exceptionally mobile.

Luenberger is taller, faster, and from what I have seen, a better tap ruckman. He hasn't had the immediate impact that Kruezer has had, though that is due mostly to the fact that Carlton are no good and really have no one else, whereas Brisbane have a good senior ruckman in Charman.

[murph#3]

You're kidding. Kreuzer's great strength is his motor and that he has a mature body for a young player. He may have the edge in other areas in terms of marking and mobility, but to say he kills him is nonsense. I would have thought Leuey is clearly the better ruck technician.

firstly, how can you say kreuzer has a mature body and berger doesn't? one is 200cm and 94kg and has had 1 pre-season and the other is 203cm and 98kg and has had 2 full pre-seasons to get himself in shape for afl footy.

secondly, maybe i worded it wrong reading back on it now but i only meant kreuzer kills him in terms of footy smarts not the rest of the things i listed.

finally, i'm of the opinion that while leunberger will always get more hitouts this is mainly due to his height and i believe kreuzer is a better technician at what he does. even kevin sheahan said at the time of the draft that kreuzer was the best 360 degree tappper of both hands he had ever seen in juniors.

[Hodgepodge]

Josh Fraser, Matthew Kreuzer, Corey McKernan, Jeff White. Yup.

[Blueboys7]

Josh Fraser, Matthew Kreuzer, Corey McKernan, Jeff White. Yup.

tosser, wanker, hodgepodge, troll, useless. Yup.

[gandaal]

We're going to have a pretty decent decade of ruck battles coming up with these two, Nat and Cox running around aren't we? It doesn't matter who's the best now because you can just tell that both will be stars who'll have some great battles over the coming years.

[Jason_K]

If I was a Carlton supporter at the start of this year, I would have been fairly dissappointed with how the previous two drafts had panned out. Based on Gibbs' performance in his debut year,

This is begging to be shredded to pieces but I am not going to bother. Disappointed with Gibbs' performances? :rolleyes: That's the problem with opposition supporters, they look at stats whilst Carlton supporters looked at those little things and how good he looked. No Carlton fans were disappointed by Gibbs in his debut year let me tell you.....I will leave it at that.

I felt the Blues should have taken Luenberger with pick 1 in '06, and Cotchin with pick 1 in '07.

I've posted this about a 100 times, but at the time of the 2006 draft, we DIDN'T KNOW that we were going to get the number 1 pick the next year also.

At that stage we had huge deficiencies in the centre with only Murphy and Stevens there and Kouta coming to an end (we didn't have Judd). We chose to go with the combination of Gibbs + Hampson rather than Leuenberger + Jetta/Hislop/Proud - now tell me if that was the wrong decision :rolleyes:

We picked a ruckman and a mid in the 2006 draft, we didn't know we were going to have a chance to pick between Cotchin and Kreuzer the next year. Imagine if we had pick 5 or something, we'd have Leuy + Masten/Myers, don't tell me that's a better combination than Gibbs + Kreuze.

Hindsight recruiting is always wonderful but once again, how the **** were the Carlton recruiting team supposed to know we were going to get the pick of Kreuzer and Cotchin the next year? :thumbsd:

[Grimreepah]

firstly, how can you say kreuzer has a mature body and berger doesn't?

Just look at them. Isn't it obvious that Kreuzer has filled out a lot more at a younger age?

secondly, maybe i worded it wrong reading back on it now but i only meant kreuzer kills him in terms of footy smarts not the rest of the things i listed.

OK then. Still think you're reaching though.

finally, i'm of the opinion that while leunberger will always get more hitouts this is mainly due to his height and i believe kreuzer is a better technician at what he does. even kevin sheahan said at the time of the draft that kreuzer was the best 360 degree tappper of both hands he had ever seen in juniors.

Have you got a source for that? I thought it was common opinion that Kreuzer was exceptional at ground level but that his ruckwork was only OK.

[murph#3]

Have you got a source for that? I thought it was common opinion that Kreuzer was exceptional at ground level but that his ruckwork was only OK.

mate don't make me go and look for that now, just take my word for it that sheahan did say that (i think the clip may have been on youtube but not sure), i'm not bullsh1tting ya.

and i've seen from my own experience that when he does get himself in a good position to tap the ball, more often than not he taps it to the advantage of our team and a few times i've seen him do some really incredible taps (which i've also seen leunberger do in the U/18s).

do you honestly believe that apart from height and speed, leunberger has anything over kreuzer?

[McManus2Waterhouse]

berger by an absolute ****ing mile

[Grimreepah]

do you honestly believe that apart from height and speed, leunberger has anything over kreuzer?

I believe Leuenberger is the better ruckman and Kreuzer is the better forward.

[murph#3]

I believe Leuenberger is the better ruckman and Kreuzer is the better forward.

i didn't ask that. i'm asking you what qualities apart from height and speed does leunberger have that is better than kreuzer?

[Grimreepah]

i didn't ask that. i'm asking you what qualities apart from height and speed does leunberger have that is better than kreuzer?

I think he is a better ruck technician. I don't know how else to say it.

I can see you are trying to propose some sort of formulaic proof that Kreuzer is better, but I've never found that to be an accurate way to assess ability. The sum is far greater than the parts so to speak.

[murph#3]

I think he is a better ruck technician. I don't know how else to say it.

I can see you are trying to propose some sort of formulaic proof that Kreuzer is better, but I've never found that to be an accurate way to assess ability. The sum is greater than the parts so to speak.

i disagree that berger is a better ruck technician, i think you're just basing that on the fact that he gets more hitouts and that's only attributed to the height advantage he has over kreuzer.

leunberger is only better than kreuzer in 2 areas: height and speed. his height might fool you to make you think he's a better technician but in truth he isn't. anyway, i'm not arguing that leunberger won't be a marginally better tap ruckman than kreuzer. when you're 3cm taller, you'd be in trouble if you weren't winning more hit outs.

but in the modern game, just the hit out is no longer good enough and it's around the ground kreuzer is better than leunberger anywhere. you say leunberger is a better ruck and kreuzer is a better forward. that's just completely ignorant. kreuzer is better than berger all over the ground not just in the forward line. his footy smarts and understanding of footy are in a different league to berger's, his kicking is waaay better than berger's, he has him covered in terms of mobility, one-percenters, tackling, smothering, shepherding, kreuzer is a much better mark and a lot better around goals. anyway, as i said i look forward to some decent ruck battles over the next 10-15 years cause we've bloody been robbed of them for the last 20 years.

[Grimreepah]

i disagree that berger is a better ruck technician, i think you're just basing that on the fact that he gets more hitouts and that's only attributed to the height advantage he has over kreuzer.

leunberger is only better than kreuzer in 2 areas: height and speed. his height might fool you to make you think he's a better technician but in truth he isn't. anyway, i'm not arguing that leunberger won't be a marginally better tap ruckman than kreuzer. when you're 3cm taller, you'd be in trouble if you weren't winning more hit outs.

You are creating pointless distinctions to try and claim superiority where there is none. The taller you are and the higher you can jump the easier it is to have good technique. It is pointless trying to separate them because they are intrinsically linked. Anyone who has seen Leuenberger would know his great strength is his technical prowess in the ruck.

but in the modern game, just the hit out is no longer good enough and it's around the ground kreuzer is better than leunberger anywhere. you say leunberger is a better ruck and kreuzer is a better forward. that's just completely ignorant. kreuzer is better than berger all over the ground not just in the forward line. his footy smarts and understanding of footy are in a different league to berger's, his kicking is waaay better than berger's, he has him covered in terms of mobility, one-percenters, tackling, smothering, shepherding, kreuzer is a much better mark and a lot better around goals. anyway, as i said i look forward to some decent ruck battles over the next 10-15 years cause we've bloody been robbed of them for the last 20 years.

This is basically a repeat of what you posted earlier. A lot of your categories overlap and a lot of the differences are exaggerated. Kreuzer's greatest advantage is his endurance which allows him to get more game time and do more around the ground (averages 7% more game time and 1.3 disposals more per game). Kreuzer is a good kick and has very good mobility but 'waaay better' is a bit of a stretch as Leuenberger is also quite good. Kreuzer has been more effective in the forward line and having a mature body at a young age has helped him there. They both seem to have a good work ethic. How you could determine one is better than the other I have no idea. And to say Kreuzer's footy smarts is out of Leuenberger's league is just biased rubbish. Are you even trying to be objective on that one?

I also think your means of assessing players is flawed because the game is just too complex. These classifications should be used as a guide to how they play, not as a determination of how good they are.

[murph#3]

You are creating pointless distinctions to try and claim superiority where there is none. The taller you are and the higher you can jump the easier it is to have good technique. It is pointless trying to separate them because they are intrinsically linked. Anyone who has seen Leuenberger would know his great strength is his technical prowess in the ruck.



This is basically a repeat of what you posted earlier. A lot of your categories overlap and a lot of the differences are exaggerated. Kreuzer's greatest advantage is his endurance which allows him to get more game time and do more around the ground (averages 7% more game time and 1.3 disposals more per game). Kreuzer is a good kick and has very good mobility but 'waaay better' is a bit of a stretch as Leuenberger is also quite good. Kreuzer has been more effective in the forward line and having a mature body at a young age has helped him there. They both seem to have a good work ethic. How you could determine one is better than the other I have no idea. And to say Kreuzer's footy smarts is out of Leuenberger's league is just biased rubbish. Are you even trying to be objective on that one?

I also think your means of assessing players is flawed because the game is just too complex. These classifications should be used as a guide to how they play, not as a determination of how good they are.

you've said nothing that proves leunberger has anything apart from height and speed over kreuzer.

[Hodgepodge]

leuenberger is real good around the ground too, provided a great assist to help brisbane beat collingwood in rd 2 this year.

[murph#3]

leuenberger is real good around the ground too, provided a great assist to help brisbane beat collingwood in rd 2 this year.

ohh look i never doubted that. not once have i said a bad word about leunberger, i think he'll be a star. all i'm saying is that it's unfair to say he is/will be a better player than kreuzer because kreuzer imo shades him in every aspect of the game apart from height and speed. as i've said a million times now, i can't wait till they both mature so we can finally see some decent ruck duels.

[SaintsManMat]

they are both useless so i guess i will vote for Dead Even?

[murph#3]

they are both useless so i guess i will vote for Dead Even?

how's mcevoy coming along mate?

[BLUE BLEEDING]

Leuenberger/Natanui will be the two best ruckman next year, Kreuzer reminds me of Josh Fraser in that he's neither a great ruckman nor a great forward.

the two best ruckmen?
over cox, sandilands and hille? i don't think so.

i have seen naitanui twice, he is not that good. he has great tap work but does nothing around the ground. kruezer was the starting ruckman over naitanui in the 2007 all australian under 18's squad (naitanui on the bench).

you don't know much about him, you just see the radical looks and read some early year hype. this shows when you cannot even spell his name.

[BLUE BLEEDING]

Angry, angry little Ant...

Luey for me because I hate Carlton. No need to put the real reason why I think Luey because Calrton fans will just say "You voted for Luey because you hate Carlton" anyway. Nice poll, ruined by morons...

there is no reason for carlton fans to say ''you voted for Luey becuase you hate carlton'' becuase you just said you did, in the same post!

[Jeremias]

how's mcevoy coming along mate?

I think he's still concussed from being hit in the head by the ball :D

[BLUE BLEEDING]

I've posted this about a 100 times, but at the time of the 2006 draft, we DIDN'T KNOW that we were going to get the number 1 pick the next year also.

At that stage we had huge deficiencies in the centre with only Murphy and Stevens there and Kouta coming to an end (we didn't have Judd). We chose to go with the combination of Gibbs + Hampson rather than Leuenberger + Jetta/Hislop/Proud - now tell me if that was the wrong decision :rolleyes:

We picked a ruckman and a mid in the 2006 draft, we didn't know we were going to have a chance to pick between Cotchin and Kreuzer the next year. Imagine if we had pick 5 or something, we'd have Leuy + Masten/Myers, don't tell me that's a better combination than Gibbs + Kreuze.

Hindsight recruiting is always wonderful but once again, how the **** were the Carlton recruiting team supposed to know we were going to get the pick of Kreuzer and Cotchin the next year? :thumbsd:

exactly.

[TheGeneral]

Kreuzer was better than Leuenberger in his first year and exceeded my expectations for a first year ruckman.
If I was a Carlton supporter at the start of this year, I would have been fairly dissappointed with how the previous two drafts had panned out. Based on Gibbs' performance in his debut year, I felt the Blues should have taken Luenberger with pick 1 in '06, and Cotchin with pick 1 in '07.

Now I feel a little less sure, though I'd still rather Berger and Cotchin.

Kruezer has been impressive, though I don't think he has shown anything that suggests he will be more than a Josh Fraser type of player. Solid up forward, solid in the ruck, and exceptionally mobile.

Luenberger is taller, faster, and from what I have seen, a better tap ruckman. He hasn't had the immediate impact that Kruezer has had, though that is due mostly to the fact that Carlton are no good and really have no one else, whereas Brisbane have a good senior ruckman in Charman.
I could have sworn Carlton drafted Shaun Hampson and Jacobs in the 2006 draft, so we did have three young ruckman on our list to choose from.

Leuenberger's 2007 has been subpar when he's been dropped for Clarke who isn't a true ruckman.

[SaintsManMat]

how's mcevoy coming along mate?


McEvoy wasnt the #1 pick in the draft "mate" :thumbsu:

[Jason_K]

McEvoy wasnt the #1 pick in the draft "mate" :thumbsu:
And for a very good reason :thumbsu:

[Tim the Toolman]

I cannot get over how over-rated Leuey is! I must be missing something but Kreuzer for mine. :confused: