More defensive mentality

[Blasé]

First of all, the Adelaide game was one of our best wins of this year, but due to having so many wins thus far, it's hot competition for no.1.

But I think that the game illustrated the problem that we're going to have continually this year unless we try to improve certain areas.

We play a zone pretty much the whole game. Effective yes, because we are able to out number the opposition and create a turnover.

Having said that, does it have a price in putting masses of players behind the ball constantly?

One would think that if players are going to push right back, then to create options in front of the ball, it would require a lot of sprinting, which is quite exhausting. Obviously it's easier and natural for players to stay behind the ball sometimes to rest and just fill space for a moment rather than sprinting to try to create. So this is the first problem: not having options up front, which then makes you reliant upon your forwards.

Fortunately, and in actual fact, extremely fortunately, we have a freak called franklin, who can do a mountain of work, and compete against more opponents and still kick goals. This, to me, is the only reason why we get away with this constant flooding. Before every game now, the opposition automatically has to put an extra man back, which then allows us to put our free man in defence.

The other fallout from this reliance on franklin, is what all should have noticed against Adelaide, but is seen statistically in this year and last. We got killed in clearances last night, and have had the problem throughout this year. I've heard mention of our rucks being the problem over the preseason, yet now our rucks are getting the credit they deserve by the media, so noone is piping up about that. but we still remain weak in this area.

This is the answer, which could be seen last night. We have less players at the clearance because we have an extra number behind the ball. The rationale is, despite the opposition getting the clearance, we can put them under pressure and then create a turnover, where we can launch an attack. Not really new, because it's a tactic that Malthouse has been using at Collingwood which has been quite effective.

The solution for us to improve at clearances is to remove the player behind and have him at the contest.

This is another fallout from zoning, in that we're in the mindset of occupying space. My problem with this, and other flooding, is that players aren't being tested enough in the one on one contests, which is high stakes football; finals football, which we'll face in septembr against higher calibre opposition than Adelaide.

Having Croad out last night forced us to zone, so I have no problem on this occasion, but when Croad is in, we need to become more accountable, because otherwise, we're going to have great difficulty getting clearances and scoring goals against very good opposition.

With plenty of injuries right now, it's very much survival and notching wins anyway possible, which was why it was such a brilliant victory.

We need to aim high to win the flag, and so we need as many players as possible beating their opponent and pressuring and spoiling their opponent.

Right now, to me, there are a number of players reaping the benefits of having franklin creating the loose man in the backline. A number of players last night left Adelaide players free for easy goals, and on a couple of occasions, players lost their feet in going to ground which cost goals.

While trying not to single him out, there was an occasion last night in the 3rd quarter, where Adelaide just kicked a goal, then got a centre break which was a quick kick. Ladson was contesting against Porplyzia, Ladson tried to mark, lost his feet, and Porplyzia ran into an open goal. Very easily, people can write this off as Porplyzia being a strong quality player, and Ladson not having enough muscle, but that wasn't the case. Ladson tried to mark the ball, and a defender should spoil to bring the ball to the ground and definitely not loose your feet. To us traditionalists, this is fundamental basics of football, but this happens quite often. Players aren't prioritising neutralising the threat, but instead continually are in the mindset of rebounding. As a consequence, our spoiling and body on body work is fairly poor, and we rely on players blocking out to take uncontested marks.

This is an area where we are well behind Sydney and Geelong and with them looking likely top 4 teams, could easily be our 1st opponents.

We need to get better at the basics of defending and stop being reliant on this zone that has players being sloppy and lazy.

Right now we're going great and are a real shot at the premiership, but it's not a formality; we have to improve to beat these high quality teams. Otherwise, we're just going on the hope that we'll get a full list at the end of the year, and these other threats are going to get crippled with injuries.

The fact is, these teams have very good defences, and they've won a premiership.

[macdaddio]

I think once we get our full list back it will all gell together and our game plan will work but we need our best 22 before finals come so can be garunteed top 2........

[Unique]

I think we need to keep the zone we have at the moment due to the personel in the backline.

Look, people keep saying our defence is underrated but their success is due to this zone. If we take this away they will be exposed.

Until our current backline gets more experienced both physically and mentally or until we breed or trade in a mature and gorilla like, true FB, this zone is nothing but effective and positive for our success.

[macdaddio]

I think we need to keep the zone we have at the moment due to the personel in the backline.

Look, people keep saying our defence is underrated but their success is due to this zone. If we take this away they will be exposed.

Until our current backline gets more experienced both physically and mentally or until we breed or trade in a mature and gorilla like, true FB, this zone is nothing but effective and positive for our success.


We were exposed by the dogs but because we lacked personal....

[Mr Lizard]

We play a man back means we are one short in the forward line, this maths I can cope with. How does it also make us one short in the 'contest'?


We are second on the ladder (by a mere 1%), we have more wins in twelve rounds than for the 2004 and 2005 seasons combined, and I am really enjoying watching us play football. Whatever it is they are doing I hope they keep doing.:thumbsu:

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I think we need to keep the zone we have at the moment due to the personel in the backline.

Look, people keep saying our defence is underrated but their success is due to this zone. If we take this away they will be exposed.

Until our current backline gets more experienced both physically and mentally or until we breed or trade in a mature and gorilla like, true FB, this zone is nothing but effective and positive for our success.

I don't really understand why people continue perpetuating this myth that we need 'gorilla' KPP's.

With the rules as they stand, we need tall, fast and long armed defenders in the vein of Dustin Fletcher - not Mal Michaels.

A lot of posters give Zac an extreme amount of shit, and fair enough - he has a lot to learn in every way - however he is the archetypical modern footballer in so many ways.

With his build, pace and ability to play back, forward & ruck he actually could be the next Kouta if we could get something seriously happening between the ears.

That said, good post Blase - as probably per usual, I agreed with some of it and disagreed with a lot as well.

The two games where I felt we where seriously challenged this season have been North & WB. Both times they took us on by playing man on man and generally beating us at it.

North didn't have the stanima to complete the job whilst the Bullies tremendous disposal exposed us, but I certainly would not be banking on that come finals at full strength.

At this point in the season I think it is too late to be changing a game plan that is very well drilled and disciplined to one which we don't win at.

Footy has changed - get over it.

[Blasé]

We play a man back means we are one short in the forward line, this maths I can cope with. How does it also make us one short in the 'contest'?


We are second on the ladder (by a mere 1%), we have more wins in twelve rounds than for the 2004 and 2005 seasons combined, and I am really enjoying watching us play football. Whatever it is they are doing I hope they keep doing.:thumbsu:

There are a lot of scary parallels between Hawthorn and Port Adelaide. The power were an awesome regular season team, that managed to easily win the minor premier for at least 2 or 3 years. Very effective at closing opposition down and running and using polish, but did it stand up in finals? Not too well when you look at how many finals they lost, and it doesn't matter how many regular season games you win, if it doesn't translate into final's wins, it's not too good. them winning in 2003 was the decline of a powerhouse, more than a champion team.

we don't necessarily need gorrilla's in the shape of mal michael, but the point is we need another strong backman that's tall, strong, fast and has a lot of endurance. the elite backmen in that mould are scarlett, rutten, glass, lake (harris), croad, bolton, egan,.. and a few others. the point is that they're hard to find, so understandable it isn't something that grows on trees, but without doubt, the team that has 2 or more of them are very close to winning a premiership.

as i said, at this point we need to do whatever to get a win, because a key ingredient, possibly more important than another kp defender, is finishing in the top 4, and to be playing in melbourne (1-2 possibly).

as far as the mr lizard's question:

"We play a man back means we are one short in the forward line, this maths I can cope with. How does it also make us one short in the 'contest'?"

it's a good question, because i couldn't clarify this any further because i'd written another essay.

we are not forced to have a man behind the play; we choose to leave that man there constantly, regardless of whether adelaide's small forward chooses to go to the contest. we could tell the man to follow his opponent into the ballup/throwin, but we're more comfortable having an extra player filling space, to protect us from being scored against.

put simply, we don't choose to man up. we don't back a players ability to beat their man or negate them. we'd rather having an extra player to spoil, block or mark to create the turnover.

by no means should you let your opposition have massive space in their forward line to run into, because no team is invincible enough to negate that, but there reaches a point, where you have enough numbers there, so that you don't expose yourself in another area. we're exposing ourselves in the midfield and almost in the forward line if it wasn't for buddy.

mathematically, you've got 22 players on the field, and if you have a ballup about 60 metres away from their goal, how many do you need to fill that space? i wouldn't think that much.

adelaide were well aware of our tactics. in the centre bounces, they had a number of players on the wing and the half forward charging straight in from outside the box. they outnumbered us and dictated clearances. we only begun to get more clearances towards the end because the play opened up and there were less players able enough. clearly they felt that they had bigger bodies, and were the best clearance team in the comp. it should've won them the game, except for their lack of conversion, and some brilliance from the hawks.

lessons must be learnt from wins as well as losses. should hodge have missed the goal at the end, our tactics would've been looked at more closely. we can take a lot out of that game, because it was as close to finals football with the amount of presure. we should learn and try to build from this match.

the sydney and geelong matches will be great tests as well.

first step is to manage the injuries and get enough wins to make the top 4. along the way, we need to prepare the players for being more accountable and prepared to beat their man. you can't be relying on another player to save you; at some stage you will be tested, and in finals, that is the time.

[Hodgepodge]

First of all, the Adelaide game was one of our best wins of this year, but due to having so many wins thus far, it's hot competition for no.1.

But I think that the game illustrated the problem that we're going to have continually this year unless we try to improve certain areas.

We play a zone pretty much the whole game. Effective yes, because we are able to out number the opposition and create a turnover.

Having said that, does it have a price in putting masses of players behind the ball constantly?

One would think that if players are going to push right back, then to create options in front of the ball, it would require a lot of sprinting, which is quite exhausting. Obviously it's easier and natural for players to stay behind the ball sometimes to rest and just fill space for a moment rather than sprinting to try to create. So this is the first problem: not having options up front, which then makes you reliant upon your forwards.

Fortunately, and in actual fact, extremely fortunately, we have a freak called franklin, who can do a mountain of work, and compete against more opponents and still kick goals. This, to me, is the only reason why we get away with this constant flooding. Before every game now, the opposition automatically has to put an extra man back, which then allows us to put our free man in defence.

The other fallout from this reliance on franklin, is what all should have noticed against Adelaide, but is seen statistically in this year and last. We got killed in clearances last night, and have had the problem throughout this year. I've heard mention of our rucks being the problem over the preseason, yet now our rucks are getting the credit they deserve by the media, so noone is piping up about that. but we still remain weak in this area.

This is the answer, which could be seen last night. We have less players at the clearance because we have an extra number behind the ball. The rationale is, despite the opposition getting the clearance, we can put them under pressure and then create a turnover, where we can launch an attack. Not really new, because it's a tactic that Malthouse has been using at Collingwood which has been quite effective.

The solution for us to improve at clearances is to remove the player behind and have him at the contest.

This is another fallout from zoning, in that we're in the mindset of occupying space. My problem with this, and other flooding, is that players aren't being tested enough in the one on one contests, which is high stakes football; finals football, which we'll face in septembr against higher calibre opposition than Adelaide.

Having Croad out last night forced us to zone, so I have no problem on this occasion, but when Croad is in, we need to become more accountable, because otherwise, we're going to have great difficulty getting clearances and scoring goals against very good opposition.

With plenty of injuries right now, it's very much survival and notching wins anyway possible, which was why it was such a brilliant victory.

We need to aim high to win the flag, and so we need as many players as possible beating their opponent and pressuring and spoiling their opponent.

Right now, to me, there are a number of players reaping the benefits of having franklin creating the loose man in the backline. A number of players last night left Adelaide players free for easy goals, and on a couple of occasions, players lost their feet in going to ground which cost goals.

While trying not to single him out, there was an occasion last night in the 3rd quarter, where Adelaide just kicked a goal, then got a centre break which was a quick kick. Ladson was contesting against Porplyzia, Ladson tried to mark, lost his feet, and Porplyzia ran into an open goal. Very easily, people can write this off as Porplyzia being a strong quality player, and Ladson not having enough muscle, but that wasn't the case. Ladson tried to mark the ball, and a defender should spoil to bring the ball to the ground and definitely not loose your feet. To us traditionalists, this is fundamental basics of football, but this happens quite often. Players aren't prioritising neutralising the threat, but instead continually are in the mindset of rebounding. As a consequence, our spoiling and body on body work is fairly poor, and we rely on players blocking out to take uncontested marks.

This is an area where we are well behind Sydney and Geelong and with them looking likely top 4 teams, could easily be our 1st opponents.

We need to get better at the basics of defending and stop being reliant on this zone that has players being sloppy and lazy.

Right now we're going great and are a real shot at the premiership, but it's not a formality; we have to improve to beat these high quality teams. Otherwise, we're just going on the hope that we'll get a full list at the end of the year, and these other threats are going to get crippled with injuries.

The fact is, these teams have very good defences, and they've won a premiership.

Very interesting and excellent and intelligent OP. Apparently we are able to keep opposition out of our defensive 50, but once it's in, our defence doesn't hold up so well. The Buddy Experiment on Saturday night paid off in more ways than one, I hope they continue to use him a little in every game (especially in 4th quarters when he's relatively fresh and the midfielders are tired) around the ground to break the lines and get other Hawks in the game.

[Henry Jr]

Everyone knows how much pressure there is in September.

The way the cluster works means that once the opporsition have the ball, they MUST move it on quicky to break us down.

As seen against many teams this year, many have tried to play on quickly, but the benafactor of this is that the quality of their kick is hampered.

By having extra men behind the ball enables us to intercept this mis-kick.

I agree, I would like to see more contested ball won in the packs. But, if your not good at it, you might as well stick to winning the uncontested ball which we excel at.

I think we will find out more how we are travelling after playing sides like Sydney and St Kilda (whom we have typically struggled against).

Great topic and content though :thumbsu:

[Roger Rogerson]

I don't really understand why people continue perpetuating this myth that we need 'gorilla' KPP's.

With the rules as they stand, we need tall, fast and long armed defenders in the vein of Dustin Fletcher - not Mal Michaels.

A lot of posters give Zac an extreme amount of shit, and fair enough - he has a lot to learn in every way - however he is the archetypical modern footballer in so many ways.

With his build, pace and ability to play back, forward & ruck he actually could be the next Kouta if we could get something seriously happening between the ears.

That said, good post Blase - as probably per usual, I agreed with some of it and disagreed with a lot as well.

The two games where I felt we where seriously challenged this season have been North & WB. Both times they took us on by playing man on man and generally beating us at it.

North didn't have the stanima to complete the job whilst the Bullies tremendous disposal exposed us, but I certainly would not be banking on that come finals at full strength.

At this point in the season I think it is too late to be changing a game plan that is very well drilled and disciplined to one which we don't win at.

Footy has changed - get over it.

Good lord. I have heard some big statements in my time but that takes the cake. I know you said 'if' but contemplating that Zac is the archetypical modern day footballer - come on. He isn't quick, he runs like a bumbling foal and he plays all over the ground because he cant hold down a position in one spot.

Have you not seen the bloke in 23 for the Hawks??

[Hawk-in-syd]

Look sofar this year the zone has been great for us. The unanswered question is how will it stand up during finals pressure football against the best teams.

The only indicator on how the zome goes in September is unfortunatley the Crows. They've been using it for at least 3 years and their finals record is poo. So did the crows fail in the finals because of the Zone or where they just not good enough? I'm hoping the later.

I think that we should try on occasions this year playing man on man before the finals and see how we go. And yes the players will cope with a different defensive style, they all played man on man all thier life. It's not a hard concept for professional footballer.

Just think if we were in the GF and behind by 5 goals and the zones not working a plan B defensive strategy would be handy.

[Blasé]

Look sofar this year the zone has been great for us. The unanswered question is how will it stand up during finals pressure football against the best teams.

The only indicator on how the zome goes in September is unfortunatley the Crows. They've been using it for at least 3 years and their finals record is poo. So did the crows fail in the finals because of the Zone or where they just not good enough? I'm hoping the later.

I think that we should try on occasions this year playing man on man before the finals and see how we go. And yes the players will cope with a different defensive style, they all played man on man all thier life. It's not a hard concept for professional footballer.

Just think if we were in the GF and behind by 5 goals and the zones not working a plan B defensive strategy would be handy.

The immense problem with reacting, is that you get overwhelmed, and make mistakes and just freeze.

When saying this, you probably think that I'm talking about the players not handling the pressure, but that's not the only people of Hawthorn. The coaching/football staff. What do you do, when you invest so much into a game plan that has worked so well in an environment that is far less intense and it just appears invincible due to your record in the regular season.

It's not really about the gameplan becoming flawed and easily foiled.

When you play man on man, you simplify the game, players don't second guess or doubt, they just do.

don't think, do!

you remember that line, well this should be part of clarksons talk to the players every game.

whilst a gameplan can become second nature, it can still fail, and then what do you do - go to man on man which is not something the players have been working at during the year.

i just think that man on man, is just so fundamental, instinctive, to beat your man and win the ball, that it's so far easier to implement, which makes it reliable.

'you have to have players that can play man on man' people say, well that's garbage. yes, no matter how hard a players tries, there will be better opponenets that have better technique and stronger, bigger and faster, but it's not about always winning. you can still neutralise, and that it the defensive mentality i'm talking about.

the sydney game will be a great test, and playing geelong will as well, but unfortunately, the remaining games are no certainty of being tests. due to the draw and whether an opposition is in a 'backs to the wall' mindset, wear or demoralised, games aren't a definite test until finals.

finals have both teams playing for the same thing, and don't think of tomorrow.

for regular season games, it's just not the case.

getting back to reacting, the opposite is being proactive, in changing before the failure, not after.