Worsfold: We dont Tank and we never Will!

[Eagle Ant]

Well that puts that arguement to bed!:rolleyes:

He did seem a little upset that Barra would even ask him that Question.
I think Grant Thomas May have bitten of more than he can chew on this 1.

[Eagle Ant]

EAGLES hard-man Beau Waters and assistant coach Peter Sumich have reaffirmed West Coast's winning culture as the AFL's 21st century ritual of 'tanking' speculation gathers momentum for season 2008.
The Eagles, sitting 15th on the ladder with just two wins for the season, took an inexperienced side to Telstra Dome on Friday night, eventually succumbing to Essendon by 22 points.
It seems to have been the result to trigger the first serious debate about AFL sides losing with an eye on top-end draft picks, but Waters said draft selections were the last thing on West Coast players' minds.
"Over 15 teams there might have been situations and scenarios that it might have transpired," Waters said.
"But I think if you're sort of implying anything towards the West Coast Eagles, we're a very powerful club and a very proud club and we play the game to win.
"We go through pre-season, we train six or seven days a week and draft selections are the last thing on our mind.
"We're all about tomorrow and we've got two games coming up against Geelong and Hawthorn, and then for the rest of the season we're still very excited about what's to come."
Sumich defended the decision to rest premiership players Daniel Kerr (calf), Michael Braun (knee) and Chad Fletcher (back), while Ash Hansen continued his search for form in the WAFL.
Playing Braun and Kerr in particular, Sumich said, was a risk the club was not willing to take.
"[Kerr] was declared out, unfit, now as a player you'll always say yeah, yeah I could have got through," Sumich said.
"Daniel tears his calf in the first 10 minutes I suppose the media will be looking at it saying, 'why'd you play him?'
"[Braun] probably shouldn't have been playing over the last month, so to his credit he has kept going. People don't know he's had some injections in his knee. So how far do you want to take a 29-year-old and maybe ruin another year for him?"
Sumich said all three midfielders were likely to regain their spots for this Saturday's clash with ladder leaders Geelong, while form and fitness would determine whether Waters returns immediately after serving a two-match suspension.
Regardless of the selected side and the club's ladder position, Sumich said there was much more to be gained from winning than losing in the second half of the season.
"The benefits in winning are Brad Ebert, (Chris) Masten, (Tim) Houlihan, (Ryan) Davis - that they get the experience of winning at this club," Sumich said.
"We've got a couple of tough games coming up with Geelong and Hawthorn, but to pinch one of those games, how good would that be for those young kids?
"Either way, we're just going out, like I said, each week to win.
"Where that puts us on the ladder, we don't know in 10 weeks time, but I think the media or the scribes will write what they want about how we finish and where we finish throughout the season.
"I'd hate to think we'd lose the next 10 home and away games. I'd be pretty devastated and I think the club would and I think the fans would."

[refresh]

sounds like ratten last year

[Cuzz09]

.
"I'd hate to think we'd lose the next 10 home and away games. I'd be pretty devastated and I think the club would and I think the fans would."

Yeah Id hate it if we lost the next 10 games.... but if we lost 7.5 out of 10 and finished with under 5 wins I think it would be win-win. As long as we are having a crack, which is what the kids are doing.

At the moment I think we would be tanking by NOT playing the kids, they have been great :thumbsu:

[Masten2McKinley]

of course they are going to say that, but i dont think we are tanking at all we are trying to win with a young side of the future and imo that is not called tanking at all

[Trump]

EAGLES hard-man Beau Waters and assistant coach Peter Sumich have reaffirmed West Coast's winning culture as the AFL's 21st century ritual of 'tanking' speculation gathers momentum for season 2008.
The Eagles, sitting 15th on the ladder with just two wins for the season, took an inexperienced side to Telstra Dome on Friday night, eventually succumbing to Essendon by 22 points.
It seems to have been the result to trigger the first serious debate about AFL sides losing with an eye on top-end draft picks, but Waters said draft selections were the last thing on West Coast players' minds.
"Over 15 teams there might have been situations and scenarios that it might have transpired," Waters said.
"But I think if you're sort of implying anything towards the West Coast Eagles, we're a very powerful club and a very proud club and we play the game to win.
"We go through pre-season, we train six or seven days a week and draft selections are the last thing on our mind.
"We're all about tomorrow and we've got two games coming up against Geelong and Hawthorn, and then for the rest of the season we're still very excited about what's to come."
Sumich defended the decision to rest premiership players Daniel Kerr (calf), Michael Braun (knee) and Chad Fletcher (back), while Ash Hansen continued his search for form in the WAFL.
Playing Braun and Kerr in particular, Sumich said, was a risk the club was not willing to take.
"[Kerr] was declared out, unfit, now as a player you'll always say yeah, yeah I could have got through," Sumich said.
"Daniel tears his calf in the first 10 minutes I suppose the media will be looking at it saying, 'why'd you play him?'
"[Braun] probably shouldn't have been playing over the last month, so to his credit he has kept going. People don't know he's had some injections in his knee. So how far do you want to take a 29-year-old and maybe ruin another year for him?"
Sumich said all three midfielders were likely to regain their spots for this Saturday's clash with ladder leaders Geelong, while form and fitness would determine whether Waters returns immediately after serving a two-match suspension.
Regardless of the selected side and the club's ladder position, Sumich said there was much more to be gained from winning than losing in the second half of the season.
"The benefits in winning are Brad Ebert, (Chris) Masten, (Tim) Houlihan, (Ryan) Davis - that they get the experience of winning at this club," Sumich said.
"We've got a couple of tough games coming up with Geelong and Hawthorn, but to pinch one of those games, how good would that be for those young kids?
"Either way, we're just going out, like I said, each week to win.
"Where that puts us on the ladder, we don't know in 10 weeks time, but I think the media or the scribes will write what they want about how we finish and where we finish throughout the season.
"I'd hate to think we'd lose the next 10 home and away games. I'd be pretty devastated and I think the club would and I think the fans would."

They're lying.

[Footbrawler]

In order to get Rich a club must plan for the future. This means playing as many kids as possible for the remainder of the season.

[wce0632]

Well that puts that arguement to bed!:rolleyes:

He did seem a little upset that Barra would even ask him that Question.
I think Grant Thomas May have bitten of more than he can chew on this 1.

a little upset? That's an understatement! He had the crazy eyes he had when he was pissed off on the footy field for a second or two there! He was not happy at all at the suggestion.

I think, as fans, particularly those of us who belong to such forums would like to believe we're "tanking", so at least we have an excuse and something to 'strive' for (low picks) rather than accept the fact that the eagles - our team - are pretty shit right now.

The media, on the other hand, will take a swipe at the eagles because, other than the fact they like to, they aren't used to the eagles sitting 15th on the ladder and being so crap. It was unexpected, Port was expected to drop out of the 8 or just scrape in and we were expected to be a Top 6 side again - instead we're in the bottom 2.

I honestly don't think we are tanking at the moment and I can't see where we are going to get wins from for the rest of the season either - maybe 1 or 2, but that's it so I guess the tanking talk will continue but I don't think we're good enough for tanking to even be an option right now - we're just losing because we're crap!

[bzparkes]

In order to get Rich a club must plan for the future. This means playing as many kids as possible for the remainder of the season.



Get Rich or die (tank) trying, eh?

[Eagle Ant]

a little upset? That's an understatement! He had the crazy eyes he had when he was pissed off on the footy field for a second or two there! He was not happy at all at the suggestion.

I think, as fans, particularly those of us who belong to such forums would like to believe we're "tanking", so at least we have an excuse and something to 'strive' for (low picks) rather than accept the fact that the eagles - our team - are pretty shit right now.

The media, on the other hand, will take a swipe at the eagles because, other than the fact they like to, they aren't used to the eagles sitting 15th on the ladder and being so crap. It was unexpected, Port was expected to drop out of the 8 or just scrape in and we were expected to be a Top 6 side again - instead we're in the bottom 2.

I honestly don't think we are tanking at the moment and I can't see where we are going to get wins from for the rest of the season either - maybe 1 or 2, but that's it so I guess the tanking talk will continue but I don't think we're good enough for tanking to even be an option right now - we're just losing because we're crap!
I as a true blue die hard Eagles supporter I (like the rest of you) would love to win every week and I am really pissed off when we dont. I also think that this season WE ARE NOT TANKING! I think it would be fair to do it as most of the Victorian clubs have been doing it since 2000 eg Stkilda, Carlton, Richmond, Essendon, Kangeroos and Now Melbourne. I dont think their is anything wrong with it to a degree as for these clubs getting a top 5 player in the National draft and having the option to get the best unsigned player Pre-season draft could give them a chance of Playing finals footy for 5 years which could earn a struggleing club Millions in the proccess. So you way up 1 bad year against 5 good years and tell me if its woth it.
Collingwood dont need to tank as they seem to buy the best players and jag some real stars in the Draft. (though i think a bit of side play goes on)
Geelong have a host of Father-son Stars they get quite often and that has helped them out as well as Tradeing very smartly when they need to.

So as we are really the only Non- victorian team to slide real fast we get preseaved as tanking but as I said I DONT THINK WE ARE. I think we are trying to win every game but we dont had the personal at the time we still had a chance for the finals so we were forced to play young inexperianced guys, Those guys were playing so well that we cant drop them, So what do we do? keep playing them for the future build the team for next year and hope for a Quick rebound up the Ladder.

Hope we play better this week and give the cats a bit of a shake.

[Ryder Is God]

I don't believe WC are tanking. I think you'll win a couple more games before the end of the season. Although I think you'll end up with Rich.

[fryzie]

What the f*ck did people expect would happen when you take a side, any side and remove one brownlow medallist and give him to Carlton in exchange for 3 KIDS (albeit very talented kids that in the future will be superstars but atm are just raw kids) and then make us sack our OTHER brownlow medallist with no compensation whatsoever.

These are the circumstances we are in and we cannot be expected to win many games in our first season missing our 2 best players and our star ruckman playing with a broken foot. End of the day if we get a good draft pick, it might make up for being f*cked by the AFL on the Cousins business.

We did the right thing by the AFL concerning Cousins and this tanking accusation is the short sighted conclusion of a has been Victorian who if it were one of his beloved clubs, Nth Melbourne, Fitzroy or Saints, would be defending their positon before doling out accuations.

Get a hobby Grant Thomas. :thumbsd:

[arfadunger]

I don't think that we're tanking, but maybe we are. No matter what we think, the facts are that we are going to end up near the bottom of the ladder this year, and the Victorian media will accuse us of tanking.

One of the suggested solutions to tanking is to have a draft lottery whereby the teams with the first 5 or 6 draft picks draw a number to determine who gets the No. 1 draft pick, and so on, rather than the the team fininshing on the bottom of the ladder getting the No. 1 pick. The AFL have always seemed to be against this idea, however, in my opinion, the real question is whether this year they will actually consider (or implement it) if it gives them another chance to screw over the Eagles. If the Melbourne media are already accusing us of tanking I can guarantee that they will be putting a lot of pressure on the AFL to change the system.

[QL 21]

We've been very ordinary since Round 2, you don't start tanking at Round 2.

[Tuffy71]

Personaly I think "TANKING" is a load of B____sh^t, for a former senior coach to believe 22 players can go out at the highest level and deliberatley lose a game is bazzar, and this goes for all clubs wether your Carlton, St kilda or whoever.

I must say though I have been very perplexed at some of the coaching/selection descisions latley ie Braun & Fletchers omission, Mckinley playing on the weekend in the WAFL. I can't help think that had he played against Essendon he may have been the difference. I have know doubt had we been in the top 4 Braun, Fletcher and Mckinley would have played. I am a big fan of Worsfolds but some decisions this year have dented some of that admiration. These are the decisions fueling the media about the so called tanking.

[FiveStrings]

The bottom line is that while there is the incentive to tank there will always be a perception that the bottom sides aren't trying to win, whether it's true or not. It was the same with Carlton last year. With everything they had to gain from losing (top pick + 3rd pick) there was always going to be a public outcry whenever they lost a match, whether they were trying to lose or not.

I don't believe we're trying to lose. If we weren't trying to win games of footy then we wouldn't be picking Cox every week with a broken foot, we wouldn't be picking Glass every week with a bung knee, and we wouldn't have rushed Hunter back from injury two weeks early.

The problem is the perception that the draft system, particularly the priority picks, create that teams out of the finals running have no incentive to win. In fact they have incentive to lose. So how do you get rid of that perception?

The best way would be to introduce relegation as in the English Premier League. If the penalty for finishing in the bottom 2 was being dumped to a minor league then you could guarantee that every team would be doing their damndest not to finish at the bottom. But that's never going to happen for the simple fact that clubs like Melbourne wouldn't survive in a lesser league.

The other answer is to remove the benefits of finishing last. Axe the priority picks for a start. Give the number 1 pick to the team that finishes 13th, so at least the teams outside of finals contention have something to play for. Or just have a lottery for the first pick so the wooden spooner isn't guaranteed a Kruezer or a Naitanui.

[Mastablingbling]

As they said on the TV last night, it would be remiss of the club to actually start winning games from here. We already have the core of a premiership winning side...have picked up a #4 KPP draft pick who looks the goods, a #3 inside midfielder who also looks the goods (plus a bunch of other youngsters)...all we need now is a #2 draft pick to top it off and we will be right back in contention in a couple of years. As good as you can get in recruiting stakes over a 2 year period without sitting at the bottom of the ladder for over half a decade like Carltank. We recently won a premiership too, so it's not as though we are starved of success.

Given the quality of the players we've lost, their is almost no other option.

I'm against tanking, and it does turn the sport into a joke...but better get in now and have some success before the idiots at AFL HQ decide to change the system.

Eagles are just doing what any business would do, increasing the probability of better returns in the future. The system almost guarantees it if you're smart.

[heals]

No way in hell will the West Coast Eagles ever tank. The club sets a high standard on and off the field and tanking is just morally wrong. No player in our team can go out on the field and not want to put in 100% the suggestion is an insult.

[Mastablingbling]

No way in hell will the West Coast Eagles ever tank. The club sets a high standard on and off the field and tanking is just morally wrong. No player in our team can go out on the field and not want to put in 100% the suggestion is an insult.

It doesn't come from the players but the administration. No doubt none of the players want to go out there and lose.

Some are saying that it's morally wrong NOT to tank, as you are actually decreasing your chances of winning a flag by doing so, and hurting your members in the long run.

[Eagle Ant]

Grant Thomas when he accused the Eagles of tanking didnt really look at the facts and if you put them all into order I dont see how we could have done it either way.

1) Braun and Fletcher: Injurys, If not Injuried they are out of form and not in our best 22 like that anyway so why would you play them? I say give em a rest and see how they respond. (I said this about 3 weeks ago)
2) Kerr: Injuried. Kerr would play on 1 leg if they would let him. We gave Judd the option last year and that didnt work! they made the right option.
Remember he hurt that leg in the Allstars game.
3) Injuries to key players and back ups: Brown, Rosa, Kennedy, Cones Spangher, Hurn.
4) Players returning from injury's: Mckinley, Lecras, Butler, Hansen, McNamara, Hunter, Priddis.
5) Players out Suspended: Waters.
6) Players out of form: Graham, Nicoski, Armstrong, Staker, Stenglein.
7) Guys that have played less then ten Games at the start of 08: Ebert, Houlihan, Cones, Mckenzie, Masten, McKinley, McNamara, Schofield, S.Selwood, Spangher, Davis, Wilkes.
8) Players Carrying Injury's: Cox, Glass, Embley, Wirrapanda.
From 1 - 6 = 22 players that were either comming back or still injuried. 7 and 8 = 16 players that are either carrying injury's or young!
that leaves us 6 players to find to fill the team!
So Whoosha had no choice when you look at those stats. Do you think that we would benifit from playing: Braun, Fletcher, Stenglein, Graham, Armstrong, Staker, Nicoski or giving the young guns like Masten, Ebert, McKinley, Davis, Wilkes, Houlihan and friends a go!:thumbsu:

[Makka]

With the way this season has unfolded for us I have no problem taking losses if it means the young kids are getting some mileage under their belts. They are the future for our club. I'm sure we are not going out deliberately trying to lose matches. Those young guys have been trying their hearts out and to be accused of tanking is an insult to those guys. We have players down on form and players out injured so it's the way it goes. If other teams and supporters want to accuse us of tanking then let them. We can't convince them otherwise.

[Mastablingbling]

With the way this season has unfolded for us I have no problem taking losses if it means the young kids are getting some mileage under their belts. They are the future for our club. I'm sure we are not going out deliberately trying to lose matches. Those young guys have been trying their hearts out and to be accused of tanking is an insult to those guys. We have players down on form and players out injured so it's the way it goes. If other teams and supporters want to accuse us of tanking then let them. We can't convince them otherwise.

Leaving Kerr out was a bit of a red flag. He could have been the difference against a team such as Essendon. Players of his calibre are normally given the option to play or not, based on how well they know their body...he wasn't on friday night. Clearly said he wanted to play but the doctor ruled him out.

The tank is in full effect, and that's probably whats best for the club until the end of this season (I've actually changed my non-tank tune, because we are clearly lacking quality in the middle). The system helped Carltank nab Judd at below market value by reducing the bargaining power of other clubs and stacking the deal in their favour - i'm dirty about that. I'm also dirty that they held a gun to our head over the Cousins issue - so ____ them. Wonder what it's doing for the moral of the players when they know that the coaching staff aren't selecting the best team.

The young guys will continue to get plenty of mileage, and players will continue to be rested with minor injuries. There is nothing the AFL can do about it (this season anyway).

[garlic munchers]

Personaly I think "TANKING" is a load of B____sh^t, for a former senior coach to believe 22 players can go out at the highest level and deliberatley lose a game is bazzar, and this goes for all clubs wether your Carlton, St kilda or whoever.

I must say though I have been very perplexed at some of the coaching/selection descisions latley ie Braun & Fletchers omission, Mckinley playing on the weekend in the WAFL. I can't help think that had he played against Essendon he may have been the difference. I have know doubt had we been in the top 4 Braun, Fletcher and Mckinley would have played. I am a big fan of Worsfolds but some decisions this year have dented some of that admiration. These are the decisions fueling the media about the so called tanking.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that 22 players go out and tank. You only had to listen to Trevor Nisbett last year when asked about Carlton tanking to understand that tanking (maybe the wrong word) is about positioning your club for the future and a by-product of the artificial draft.

The draft means that those (apart from the players) at the highest levels of the club have an obligation to play kids, retire some players early and perhaps not play someone who has a niggling injury.

The novelty of just making finals and being beaten in the first week of September or consistently winning 7-11 games wears off. Clubs are judged by their ultimate success. Everyone admires the Shinboner spirit, they just won't become a member!

Blame the draft until a lottery system is brought in for the bottom 4-6 teams as in the NBA. Then there is no incentive to jockey for the bottom couple of positions.

[happy_eagle]

We are not going out to each game, purposely trying to lose. that is just pathetic and would never happen

However when you have very little to play for , winning dosnt come the number 1 priority, and the coaches wont react to a loss, the same way they do, if say we were in the top 4.

More emphasis is given to the young kids getting a game, and the future. The coaches will always try to win the game, but as far as preferences go, it wont be as important as it has been in the past.

[88mph]

Tanking/List Management = Tomata/Tomato

What ever you call it, its pretty f___ing obvious that we not 'trying' to win.

The rest of the teams in the comp and their supporters are just pissed because after the tall poppy was cut down in 2007 we have all of a sudden picked up a bunch of great new kids in the last draft and are set to do it again.

What compounds their bitterness is the value of this particular draft and the value of a young and maturing team over the next 4 to 5 seasons has increased significantly.

Everyone always wants to bitch about WCE

[rotto]

No way in hell will the West Coast Eagles ever tank. The club sets a high standard on and off the field and tanking is just morally wrong. No player in our team can go out on the field and not want to put in 100% the suggestion is an insult.
__________________

Sorry, but the Eagles did tank in 2001 when they got Judd and Sampi. At the moment the Eagles arent tanking, why would have they beaten Crows just three a week and two weeks almost won against Swans.

[88mph]

No way in hell will the West Coast Eagles ever tank. The club sets a high standard on and off the field and tanking is just morally wrong. No player in our team can go out on the field and not want to put in 100% the suggestion is an insult.
__________________

Sorry, but the Eagles did tank in 2001 when they got Judd and Sampi. At the moment the Eagles arent tanking, why would have they beaten Crows just three a week and two weeks almost won against Swans.

Just who do you go for?

[rotto]

Mick Malthouse made the claim that Eagles admin were boasting that they landed picks 3 and 6 in conversation they had with him due to tanking.

Funny enough, Worsfold wasnt at the club in 2001.

[daddy_4_eyes]

The best way would be to introduce relegation as in the English Premier League. If the penalty for finishing in the bottom 2 was being dumped to a minor league then you could guarantee that every team would be doing their damndest not to finish at the bottom. But that's never going to happen for the simple fact that clubs like Melbourne wouldn't survive in a lesser league.

There's other ways to encourage winning.

How about having a huge difference in prize money between bottom 4 and the next tier clubs? All of a sudden this makes not only avoiding the wooden spoon imperative, but also avoiding a bottom 4 finish.
Reward high ladder finishing clubs with favourable draws, including Anzac day, good friday, Queens B'day & Friday night games. Having a shit draw hurts the clubs cash flow AND aggravates their supporters.
Introduce a draft lottery system for bottom 4 teams. Suddenly finishing 16th is no better than finishing 13th, so why would a club tank? If you take away the pre-1st rd priority pick it ensures there isn't a Carlton-2007 type situation either.


The problem with financial penalties is that rich clubs can still tank. But if you were to implement all 3 of those ideas it hits the club on so many fronts that its not an option to tank.

Maybe another option would be to offer clubs a salary cap bonus based on their ladder position? Finish top 4 & you get +5% in your salary cap. Hurts the clubs financially on a different front.

These are all quick ideas just off the top of my head, and anyone can poke holes in it. But if the AFL were genuine about maintaining the integrity of their competition they'd look into this whole tanking issue.

[daddy_4_eyes]

Another idea I've brought up before, but have got little response, is the reintroduction of zoning.
If a club were allowed to draft one player each year from their zone, then it dilutes the draft talent pool. Suddenly pick #1 in the draft could net you only the 17th best player in the AFL (in the unlikely event the top 16 players are all evenly spread out in each of the 16 AFL zones :p).

It would also encourage clubs to invest more in grass roots footy. That can only be a good thing.

[BMckinley#1]

Grant Thomas just wanted attention and what team will he choose? The most popular!:cool:

[kilaw]

It may appear like tanking but I think the fact of the matter is, it doesn't work. Carlton tanked 6 years straight to get into the top 8... SIX YEARS!

In 2000, we were crap for just TWO years before we got back into the swing of things. We know it, Worsfold knows it. You don't build teams with a losing culture, you build them with a winning mentality.

Most West Coast players will go into this game thinking they have no chance. Last two years those same guys would have been confident as ever that we could take on any team.

If we develop these kids into a losing team - they will never reach their potential. One must look no further than Joel Selwood to see what a winning team can do for a young player. I don't think he was honestly that much better than the other youngsters (eg. Gibbs) - but he had the mentality they didnt experience.

IF we are tanking - it won't end soon.