Recruiting Wallace Vs Frawley, a real eye opener

[Tiger67]

Too often we compare our recruiting against other teams.
While we stumbled our way through draft days with hasbeens and never will be's during the Frawley years both the Doggies and the Hawks made some excellent selections with very early picks on draft day.
If you look at the players we have on our list then it is very clear that our rebuild did not start until 2004
Both Hawthorn and the Dogs started earlier than us and as they had participated intelligently in every draft by using selections on young players to build a team with, they are reaping the rewards ahead of us.
In the time that Danny Frawley was coach this is a list of the recruits that came to the RFC.
Those listed in red are what I would class as B & C graders
Those in Blue are the only A Graders
and the green is players that would fall into the B - C but are no longer at the club.
You may not the proliferation of hacks that never made it elsewhere and achieved no more with us.

2003 21 Alex Gilmour Richmond
2003 37 Thomas Roach Richmond 2003 53 Daniel Jackson Richmond
2003 64 Shane Morrison Richmond 2003 70 Brent Hartigan Richmond 2003 73 Shane Tuck Richmond
2003 76 Andrew Raines Richmond
2003 79 Simon Fletcher Richmond 2003 81 Kyle Archibald Richmond 2002 12 Jay Schulz Richmond
2002 41 Tim Fleming Richmond
2002 47 Bill Nicholls Richmond
2002 62 Daniel Sipthorp Richmond
2001 33 David Rodan Richmond
2001 63 Adam Houlihan Richmond 2001 68 Chris Hyde Richmond
2001 77 Martin McGrath Richmond 2000 9 Kayne Pettifer Richmond
2000 25 Mark Coughlan Richmond 2000 40 Chris Hyde Richmond
2000 41 Andrew Krakouer Richmond
2000 55 Chris Newman Richmond
2000 57 Steven Sziller Richmond 1999 3 Aaron Fiora Richmond
1999 22 Ezra Poyas Richmond 1999 39 Scott Homewood Richmond
1999 52 Andrew Mills Richmond
1999 78 Ty Zantuck

The list below are the players recruited via the draft since TW took control. I think the list speaks for itself.
Add to the list below the names Cotchin, Rance, Putt and Gourdis and you have some idea of the way the talent pool has improved.
I have not included the colour coding on several players on the second list who I still believe will make it and some of the Red players on the bottom list could well become A graders.

2006 13 Jack Riewoldt Richmond
2006 26 Shane Edwards Richmond
2006 58 Daniel Connors Richmond
2006 60 Carl Peterson Richmond 2006 73 Andrew Collins Richmond
2005 8 Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls Richmond
2005 24 Cleve Hughes Richmond
2005 40 Travis Casserly Richmond 2004 1 Brett Deledio Richmond
2004 4 Richard Tambling Richmond
2004 12 Danny Meyer Richmond 2004 16 Adam Pattison Richmond
2004 20 Dean Polo Richmond
2004 36 Luke McGuane Richmond
2004 52 Dean Limbach Richmond 2004 65 Mark Graham

[nut]

you can see that Spud traded alot of early picks..... TW did benefit from the first draft from spuds wooden spoon.

TW success rate looks alot better.

Nice work:thumbsu: shows a lot of wasted years with spud the dud...

[UpTheGuts]

Miller hasn't done the job...

2001-2003 = very poor

[darcytiger]

haha Marty McGrath, 5 goals on debut then he dissapeared off the face of the earth

[nut]

Miller hasn't done the job...

2001-2003 = very poor

Miller did get us some very high priced recruits in Brown, Johnson in this period too... which costs as a few picks and Thorney.

[Calcium Man]

Miller hasn't done the job...

2001-2003 = very poor

It was very poor in that time, but then again Miller isn't a a recruiter he is a negotiator. Unfortunately for us we had to give him to job of recruiter because we couldn't afford a full time one.

[UpTheGuts]

It was very poor in that time, but then again Miller isn't a a recruiter he is a negotiator. Unfortunately for us we had to give him to job of recruiter because we couldn't afford a full time one.

I get that - though Miller is happy to bring up Carey and Longmire anytime folks ask about his recruiting prowess.

That pick 35 for Ty Zantuck would've been OK too.

[Wally Matera]

As much l love Patto's heart... we shouldve done so much better out of the Ottens trade. We owned that draft and we are still :confused: as to whether we've got anything but Deledio.

[UpTheGuts]

As much l love Patto's heart... we shouldve done so much better out of the Ottens trade. We owned that draft and we are still :confused: as to whether we've got anything but Deledio.

Yep - Egan and Wood would've been nice...

2004 - pretty crappy draft so far as depth though

1 13 Matthew Bate Eastern Ranges Melbourne
1 14 Angus Monfries Sturt Football Club Essendon
1 15 Lynden Dunn Calder Cannons Melbourne
1 16 Adam Pattison Northern Under 18s Richmond
1 17 Andrew McQualter Gippsland Power St. Kilda
1 18 Cameron Wood West Adelaide Football Club Brisbane Lions
1 19 Ryan Willits Northern Under 18s Port Adelaide
2 20 Dean Polo Gippsland Power Richmond
2 21 Thomas Murphy Sandringham Zebras Hawthorn
2 22 Jesse Wells Tasmanian Devils Football Club Western Bulldogs
2 23 Sean Rusling West Adelaide Football Club Collingwood
2 24 Nathan Van Berlo West Perth Football Club Adelaide
2 25 Adam Hartlett West Adelaide Football Club Carlton
2 26 Matthew Little Calder Cannons Hawthorn
2 27 Pat Garner Western Magpies Brisbane Lions
2 28 Chad Gibson Norwood Football Club Adelaide
2 29 Matt Rosa North Ballarat Football Club West Coast Eagles
2 30 Andrew Lee Tasmanian Devils Football Club Essendon
2 31 Jarred Moore Dandenong Football Club Sydney Swans
2 32 Brent Prismall Western Under 18s Geelong
2 33 Cain Ackland Port Adelaide Football Club St. Kilda
2 34 James Ezard Calder Cannons Port Adelaide
2 35 Fabian Deluca Eastern Under 18s Port Adelaide
3 36 Luke McGuane Broadbeach Football Club Richmond
3 37 Mark LeCras West Perth Football Club West Coast Eagles
3 38 Damien McCormack Dandenong Football Club Western Bulldogs
3 39 Travis Cloke Eastern Under 18s Collingwood
3 40 Ivan Maric Calder Cannons Adelaide
3 41 Luke Blackwell Swan Districts Football Club Carlton
3 42 Jesse W. Smith Calder Cannons Kangaroos
3 43 Michael Newton Murray Bushrangers Melbourne
3 44 Mitch Morton Claremont Football Club West Coast Eagles
3 45 Justin Sherman Clarence Football Club Brisbane Lions
3 46 Henry Slattery West Adelaide Football Club Essendon
3 47 David Spriggs Geelong Sydney Swans
3 48 Nathan Ablett Modewarre Geelong
3 49 Mark McGough Collingwood St Kilda
3 50 Jayden Attard Dandenong Football Club Brisbane Lions
3 51 Ben Eckermann Sturt Football Club Port Adelaide
4 52 Dean Limbach Calder Cannons Richmond
4 53 Simon Taylor Box Hill Hawks Hawthorn
4 54 Stephen Tiller West Adelaide Football Club Western Bulldogs
4 55 Adam Iacobucci Calder Cannons Collingwood
4 56 Chris Knights Eastern Under 18s Adelaide
4 57 Bradley P. Smith Subiaco Football Club West Coast Eagles
4 58 Brad Moran Southport Sharks Kangaroos
4 59 Benet Copping Sturt Football Club Fremantle
4 60 Paul Thomas Central District Bulldogs Essendon
4 61 Heath James Sydney Swans Sydney Swans
4 62 Matthew Egan Geelong VFL Geelong
4 63 James Gwilt Noble Park Football Club St. Kilda
4 64 Luke Forsyth Dandenong Football Club Brisbane Lions
5 65 Mark Graham Hawthorn Richmond

[RECORDS!]

You are right, I never knew just how shit a draft that was depth wise. Funny to see Jarred Moore was taken in that draft, just starting to make inroads this season. Imagine he was on the tiger list and only staring to play league footy now - public enemy number 1!:D

[tigertiger]

They made the same mistake that the saints are making now they thought they were close to a flag so bet everything on the next couple of years. When it all fell apart it came crashing down

[Carlton_Blues]

They made the same mistake that the saints are making now they thought they were close to a flag so bet everything on the next couple of years. When it all fell apart it came crashing down

Yes, I can see how the Saints draft tactics were based on them being close to a flag, but I'm not convinced that the Tigers recruiting was for the same reasons. I feel with Frawley stepping in it may have been for some short-sighted on-field success.

I think TW's plan (which wasnt executed till AFTER his first year in office) is more long-term and now better calculated. I also believe you would benefit from men with vision like Frank Costa and someone of Greg Swanns calibre in our administration. But you ARE getting there, because I see that youre slowly identifying shortcomings and fixing them as you are moving towards "2011".

[Roachy8]

[quote=Tiger67;11426083]
2003 21 Alex Gilmour Richmond
2003 37 Thomas Roach Richmond 2003 53 Daniel Jackson Richmond
2003 64 Shane Morrison Richmond 2003 70 Brent Hartigan Richmond 2003 73 Shane Tuck Richmond
2003 76 Andrew Raines Richmond
2003 79 Simon Fletcher Richmond 2003 81 Kyle Archibald Richmond 2002 12 Jay Schulz Richmond
2002 41 Tim Fleming Richmond
2002 47 Bill Nicholls Richmond
2002 62 Daniel Sipthorp Richmond
2001 33 David Rodan Richmond
2001 63 Adam Houlihan Richmond 2001 68 Chris Hyde Richmond
2001 77 Martin McGrath Richmond 2000 9 Kayne Pettifer Richmond
2000 25 Mark Coughlan Richmond 2000 40 Chris Hyde Richmond
2000 41 Andrew Krakouer Richmond
2000 55 Chris Newman Richmond
2000 57 Steven Sziller Richmond 1999 3 Aaron Fiora Richmond
1999 22 Ezra Poyas Richmond 1999 39 Scott Homewood Richmond
1999 52 Andrew Mills Richmond
1999 78 Ty Zantuck

Even though it has been pointed out many times, it still makes me shudder to see this "Rouges Gallery" of names.
Spud's damage to the RFC was almost terminal with his horrible recruiting and list management. :mad:

[tigertiger]

Yes, I can see how the Saints draft tactics were based on them being close to a flag, but I'm not convinced that the Tigers recruiting was for the same reasons. I feel with Frawley stepping in it may have been for some short-sighted on-field success.

I think TW's plan (which wasnt executed till AFTER his first year in office) is more long-term and now better calculated. I also believe you would benefit from men with vision like Frank Costa and someone of Greg Swanns calibre in our administration. But you ARE getting there, because I see that youre slowly identifying shortcomings and fixing them as you are moving towards "2011".

The rebuild definetly started in his first year we culled 13 players from our list at the end of 2004 for TW first year as coach I would say that was the begining of the rebuild.

[RECORDS!]

Tiger 67, do you have the info at your fingertips to do a similar thing for Hawthorn, comparing the Schwab recruiting to Clarkson. This would, I am sure dispel the myth that Clarkson has succeeded where Wallace has failed. I would bet that the core of the Hawthorn team at the moment was recruited before Clarkson even got there.

[mitch richmond]

Even though it has been pointed out many times, it still makes me shudder to see this "Rouges Gallery" of names.
Spud's damage to the RFC was almost terminal with his horrible recruiting and list management. :mad:[/quote]


The key is player development - often not who you draft. Gilmore, Hartigan, Poyas and Sipthorp might have been good (hell, they might've been guns) but we didn't develop them. They probably did 5 minutes of handballs after training with the Flea then back to the X-box!
Not defending Spud, but he probably took those recycled blokes 'cos with our history with coaches, he knew he was on borrowed time. A Preliminary Final in his 2nd year must have freaked him out!

[Sausage roll]

Jury very much out on Tambling being an A grader? Surely not yet!

Ditto for JON being a B or C grader. Try h- for hack grade!

[mitch richmond]

You are right, I never knew just how shit a draft that was depth wise. Funny to see Jarred Moore was taken in that draft, just starting to make inroads this season. Imagine he was on the tiger list and only staring to play league footy now - public enemy number 1!:D

Great call RECORDS! It's the same with people slagging JON or Cleve off. If they went to a team like the Swans, Roos and supporters would be patient with them and they'd one day be a handy inclusion to the team.
Perfect example is Daniel Currie on Swans list. Drafted from the Northern Knights 2 years ago, he won't debut until he's 20/21 and I'm tipping a very fruitful career up there. Richmond supporters would be calling for his head right now.

[tigerdan]

They made the same mistake that the saints are making now they thought they were close to a flag so bet everything on the next couple of years. When it all fell apart it came crashing down

Add Freo to that list too....

[telsor]

Yes, I can see how the Saints draft tactics were based on them being close to a flag, but I'm not convinced that the Tigers recruiting was for the same reasons. I feel with Frawley stepping in it may have been for some short-sighted on-field success.

I think TW's plan (which wasnt executed till AFTER his first year in office) is more long-term and now better calculated. I also believe you would benefit from men with vision like Frank Costa and someone of Greg Swanns calibre in our administration. But you ARE getting there, because I see that youre slowly identifying shortcomings and fixing them as you are moving towards "2011".

TW plan wasn't implimented until after his first year? What plan is that?
Considering how many picks we had in 2004, I'd suggest he started cleaning house and making changes as soon as he got in.

As for administration...I think Steve Wright is doing a rather good job actually. It's easy to look like you have vision when your team just won a premiership.

[mitch richmond]

TW plan wasn't implimented until after his first year? What plan is that?
Considering how many picks we had in 2004, I'd suggest he started cleaning house and making changes as soon as he got in.

As for administration...I think Steve Wright is doing a rather good job actually. It's easy to look like you have vision when your team just won a premiership.

Good call. Patience is the key. Costa stuck with "Bomber" Thompson and they won the Flag in his 7th year. Thompson coached Geelong to 12th in his 4th year, Wallace has us sitting 11th in his 4th year with very winnable games coming up over the final 10 rounds.

[Roachy8]

The key is player development - often not who you draft. Gilmore, Hartigan, Poyas and Sipthorp might have been good (hell, they might've been guns) but we didn't develop them. They probably did 5 minutes of handballs after training with the Flea then back to the X-box!
Not defending Spud, but he probably took those recycled blokes 'cos with our history with coaches, he knew he was on borrowed time. A Preliminary Final in his 2nd year must have freaked him out!

Too true, development is also a key & perhaps some of these guys could have made it but either way, the problem still lands squarely at Frawley's feet.
Head coach = overall responsibility for player development.

Therefore the success of some of our higher drafts & rookies over the past couple of years may actually point to a reasonable record of player development under Wallace. ;)

[tigers_of_old_08]

Am happy to see Wallace see out his contract (and beyond) if he continues to develop and play the clubs youth. However I'd love to see Richo play some finals footy, as I'm sure every other Tiger supporter would.

[mitch richmond]

We need to give Wallace time. Man I wish Brisbane weren't so red hot in '01. That Prelim. final team comprised Ray Hall, Hilton, Tivers, Sziller, Fiora, Poyas, King and Holland. If we'd won that game they would all have gained Grand Final experience and maybe have a Premiership medallion round there neck. Tony Greenberg would write articles on them instead of Dick Clay, Francis Bourke and Roy Wright.
Oh well......

[Tiger67]

Tiger 67, do you have the info at your fingertips to do a similar thing for Hawthorn, comparing the Schwab recruiting to Clarkson. This would, I am sure dispel the myth that Clarkson has succeeded where Wallace has failed. I would bet that the core of the Hawthorn team at the moment was recruited before Clarkson even got there.

Here is the list for Hawthorn from 2001.
I'm sure you will agree there drafts through that period out weigh ours by a mile.
There is a fair share of duds but the core of the players that form the backbone of there team.
2001 in particular was a big draft for the hawks.

25 Harry Miller Hawthorn 2003
41 Zac Dawson Hawthorn 2003
51 Matthew Ball Hawthorn 2002
8 Luke Brennan Hawthorn 2002
51 Tim Boyle Hawthorn 2002
65 Lochlan Veale Hawthorn 2001
1 Luke Hodge Hawthorn 2001
16 Rick Ladson Hawthorn 2001
20 Daniel Elstone Hawthorn 2001
32 Campbell Brown Hawthorn 2001
36 Sam Mitchell Hawthorn 2001
48 Simon Cox Hawthorn 2000
21 Nick Ries Hawthorn 2000
28 Steven Greene Hawthorn 2000
43 Mark Williams Hawthorn 2000
58 Nathan Lonie Hawthorn

[Ize Of The World]

Meyer is the one. Playing Coburg Reserves, and not setting the world on fire. Pick 12 FFS, what's with this guy?

[Sausage roll]

Meyer is the one. Playing Coburg Reserves, and not setting the world on fire. Pick 12 FFS, what's with this guy?
'
Wait for all the excuses for this guy.

Hold on tight!

Like Miller and JON...he has to go

[Peter SasseGum]

Head coach = overall responsibility for player development.

Therefore the success of some of our higher drafts & rookies over the past couple of years may actually point to a reasonable record of player development under Wallace. ;)

I'd add to that and say that Wallace's player development has been nothing short of exceptional. The team is really coming together now, and everyone should not let the hiccup that was 2007 cloud their appraisal of how we've progressed since 2004

Well done to TW and the coaching staff for giving the young tiger cubs some brilliant tutelage over the last few seasons :thumbsu:

[deliberate!!]

Whatever happened to 'Bill Nicholls' ???

:confused:

[Tiger67]

Whatever happened to 'Bill Nicholls' ???

:confused:

He went to Hawthorn at number 69 in the 1999 draft then from Hawthorn to Richmond in the 2002 draft.
I thhink he was one of the players in the end of 2004 cleanout.
Not sure what he is doing these days but I'm sure that someone on bigfooty could help out.
I have heard the name Billy Nichols associated with the Ovens and Murray league (Corowa Rutherglen I think) but I am not sure if it is the same Billy Nichols.

[kolchak]

Richmond historical trading threads are the best reading on bigfooty.

[Kurtis G]

TW plan wasn't implimented until after his first year? What plan is that?
Considering how many picks we had in 2004, I'd suggest he started cleaning house and making changes as soon as he got in.

As for administration...I think Steve Wright is doing a rather good job actually. It's easy to look like you have vision when your team just won a premiership.
I think that Carlton_Blues is right.

Yeah we cleaned a few out at the end of 2004, but look at our last pick in that draft, Mark Graham. Was incredibly servicable and contributed to our positive performances that year, but playing a man like that is not in line with a consistant youth policy. It wasnt until the next few seasons that Wallace started making the hard calls and cracking down on old players, like Clarkson did in year 1. Perhaps Terry was set on interim success because he was scared of the Tiger fans reaction if we had 2007 in 2005?

We pushed the top 8 in 2005, and would have went alot closer if it wasnt for the loss of our number one goal kicker that season. Things seemed to be coming together, and we had some enjoyable wins, but for what? Wallace is inconsistant and weak, well that is harsh, but its how he comes across at times. Still, I think he may be the right man for the job and im willing to give him till atleast the end of next season.

[genghiskhan]

I think that Carlton_Blues is right.

Yeah we cleaned a few out at the end of 2004, but look at our last pick in that draft, Mark Graham. Was incredibly servicable and contributed to our positive performances that year, but playing a man like that is not in line with a consistant youth policy. It wasnt until the next few seasons that Wallace started making the hard calls and cracking down on old players, like Clarkson did in year 1. Perhaps Terry was set on interim success because he was scared of the Tiger fans reaction if we had 2007 in 2005?

We pushed the top 8 in 2005, and would have went alot closer if it wasnt for the loss of our number one goal kicker that season. Things seemed to be coming together, and we had some enjoyable wins, but for what? Wallace is inconsistant and weak, well that is harsh, but its how he comes across at times. Still, I think he may be the right man for the job and im willing to give him till atleast the end of next season.

Wallace had no need to fear. He had just signed a five-year contract and had a mandate to rebuild. He just took another strategy and it didn't work as he hoped. I am happy to give him his five-years but no matter what happens from now he has underachieved.

[Infamy]

I don't think selecting Mark Graham was a failure at all. He stopped us from playing a kid down on big forwards before they were ready. We had kids who had just been drafted and they weren't ready to play at that level. Have a look at Zac Dawson, will the kid ever play again? He was thrown around like a rag doll and his confidence was shot, possibly for good. Graham gave the kids development time, taught the kids a lot and then stepped aside for a kid to take his place on the list. It only delayed the drafting of another kid by a year.

[Kurtis G]

Yeah fair point Graham was good but the irony of drafting a player in his situation in the first year of a rebuild just doesnt add up. At the time I thought that it did, but my mind has since changed especially after the way Kelleway and Gas were treated, but thats another issue...

[Kurtis G]

Surely the biggest recruiting blunder of all time is not selecting Lance "Buddy" Franklin!?

[HBK619]

I don't think selecting Mark Graham was a failure at all. He stopped us from playing a kid down on big forwards before they were ready. We had kids who had just been drafted and they weren't ready to play at that level. Have a look at Zac Dawson, will the kid ever play again? He was thrown around like a rag doll and his confidence was shot, possibly for good. Graham gave the kids development time, taught the kids a lot and then stepped aside for a kid to take his place on the list. It only delayed the drafting of another kid by a year.
Exactly right, Will Thursfield lists Mark Graham as his biggest influence as a player, had Graham not been there, Thursfield might have had to take his position weekly, gotten thumped and not had anyone to give him the confidence to get back to where he is at right now.

Also let's not forget that if it wasn't for one persons broken leg we would have played finals that year and who knows where it would have gone from there.

[tigerdan]

I am happy to give him his five-years but no matter what happens from now he has underachieved.

Come off it. Given that it's possible he could be coach of the next two premiership sides, that would be an underachievement?

Do the assessment at the end of the 5 years, not before.

[Sausage roll]

Richmond historical trading threads are the best reading on bigfooty.


Didn't your club pass on Franklin?

Don't get too smug or we will bring up the billy nichol's of this world!

[FrangaRoo]

Miller hasn't done the job...

2001-2003 = very poor

He was still at Arden st in 2001, and at channel 7 in 2002 so i dont think he can be blamed for those years.

Id love to Roos to have some of the kids coming through at Punt Rd.

[Mr.X]

I'd add to that and say that Wallace's player development has been nothing short of exceptional. The team is really coming together now, and everyone should not let the hiccup that was 2007 cloud their appraisal of how we've progressed since 2004

Well done to TW and the coaching staff for giving the young tiger cubs some brilliant tutelage over the last few seasons :thumbsu:

Is this for real, or a piss take?

[Realistic Tiger]

Is this for real, or a piss take?
He is 100% serious, unfortunately. Sad isn't it.