Gilham and Murphy? A big improvement needed come finals time ....

[BuddyHawkers]

I seen a lot of games this year and I still go back to the backline we need to improve more to be in the Grand final. Gilham needs to step up and Murphy I would drop.
What are your thoughts?

[Davo23]

I seen a lot of games this year and I still go back to the backline we need to improve more to be in the Grand final. Gilham needs to step up and Murphy I would drop.
What are your thoughts?


Disagree.


.

[Shanhawk]

I seen a lot of games this year and I still go back to the backline we need to improve more to be in the Grand final. Gilham needs to step up and Murphy I would drop.
What are your thoughts?

Gilham is struggling, no doubt.

Murphy has been alright in my opinion.

Guerra being out for a month, croady injured and Birch being fairly quiet recently probably has unsettled the backline a fair bit.

[raff23]

Backline is and is going to be our achilles heel come finals time make no mistake about it. far to many marks taken in one on one situations, some players appear to be rabbits caught in headlights not knowing what to do, a worrying sign. Still won by 10 goals despite but needs to be looked at.

[jaygee]

Time to get real. First half of the year. Gillam looks an average defender. Lewis desposes of the ball to slow. Clarke cant kick 5 Mts. Ladson has to play midfield becouse lacking midfield talent. Renouf kills us (But is Young). Young cant beat his sister. Ellis needs to take the next step. Burchell needs to play an attacking winger. Rioli needs a rest. Williams shoot at the big sticks.
+ time Hodge, Mitchell, forward line, Croad, Osbourne, Cambell.
All good and stiil time to fix all things for the finals. J

[crawf_legend]

I would like to see Gilham build up his muscle and become a key defender. I think Murphy needs to step up or else its goodbye for him.. :(

[raff23]

Time to get real. First half of the year. Gillam looks an average defender. Lewis desposes of the ball to slow. Clarke cant kick 5 Mts. Ladson has to play midfield becouse lacking midfield talent. Renouf kills us (But is Young). Young cant beat his sister. Ellis needs to take the next step. Burchell needs to play an attacking winger. Rioli needs a rest. Williams shoot at the big sticks.
+ time Hodge, Mitchell, forward line, Croad, Osbourne, Cambell.
All good and stiil time to fix all things for the finals. J
was nearly back to the first 8 or so games tonite, could have taken mark of the year as well.

[lethalselbow]

I would like to see Gilham build up his muscle and become a key defender. I think Murphy needs to step up or else its goodbye for him.. :(

Don't think Gilham is quite tall enough for the key role. He's going okay though.

Murphy isn't quite tall enough, also, and the we've got the small defenders to handle the jobs. I'm still yet to make up my mind on whether i like him. He's had some good games and some ordinairy games.

[FriarTuck]

Brown on Hansen shows where Gilham and Murphy are rated. The only backman that can win a one on one is Croad. Our backline is thin to say the least.

[BuddyHawkers]

Brown on Hansen shows where Gilham and Murphy are rated. The only backman that can win a one on one is Croad. Our backline is thin to say the least.

Spot on:thumbsu:

[CouchPotato]

Our backline has worried me from round 1. As soon as the ball comes in fast and long and it is a one on one contest we lose out far more times that we win won. Other clubs are now starting to realise this ie. kangas who deliberately kicked it long and we were constantly caught out of position.

When it is one on one, Gilham always seems to be 1/2metres behind his man in the marking contest and he just isn't physically strong enough in a contested situation. Jury is still out on Murphy, does some good things but again is not physically strong.

[Flamin Joe]

was nearly back to the first 8 or so games tonite, could have taken mark of the year as well.

Exactly. :thumbsu: Getting so sick of calls for him to be dropped so he can be "rested". He'll come good with game time, not sitting in the stands wishing he was out there. He's young, it's his first year, you can't expect him to be consistent every single game. He's hit a form slump, but that's to be expected, he stills need to adjust to AFL level and with more game time he'll get there.

I don't know what the hell it is in the "modern" era where we've become so precious over players. :rolleyes:

[Davo23]

Brown on Hansen shows where Gilham and Murphy are rated.


Perhaps Brown on Hansen shows where Hansen is rated.

Sure, Hansen kicked a couple of goals, but he is NOT rated.


.

[The Kipster]

Gilly has played some cracking football this year, kind of reminds me if that Midnight Oil song 'Short Memory" :rolleyes:

Murphy is too slow but we don't have that extra option yet.....

Lighten Up, 12 & 2 and beat the Woosies by 10 goals :)

[Chrissie90]

Don't think Gilham is quite tall enough for the key role. He's going okay though.

Murphy isn't quite tall enough, also, and the we've got the small defenders to handle the jobs. I'm still yet to make up my mind on whether i like him. He's had some good games and some ordinairy games.

I think that Gilham is taller than Croad - and he is much taller than Brown who gets the big guys. I think he needs to go to the gym and work out with Clinty and Xman over Christmas so they can all bulk up and play good footy in 09.

[Flag08]

They wont get any better. We just gotta hope we kick more at the other end.

[Roughie]

Gilhams problem is pace, he gets exploited in this area way to much. His size is fine, he can wrestle with most forwards, but when it comes to straight leads he is dead.

[croady_fan24]

Both of them need to step up.

Gilham hasn't really shown much this year, despite being the most improved player last year.

[JoeHawk]

Time to get real. First half of the year. Gillam looks an average defender. Lewis desposes of the ball to slow. Clarke cant kick 5 Mts. Ladson has to play midfield becouse lacking midfield talent. Renouf kills us (But is Young). Young cant beat his sister. Ellis needs to take the next step. Burchell needs to play an attacking winger. Rioli needs a rest. Williams shoot at the big sticks.
+ time Hodge, Mitchell, forward line, Croad, Osbourne, Cambell.
All good and stiil time to fix all things for the finals. J


A bit harsh I reckon. Most of these blokes you mentioned are still young and are starting to show some fatigue in a season where we being the hunted. To maintain that hardness week in week out is a big ask. The weeks break will do them a world of good.

We are most vulnerable with the younger players who still need to mature. Another pre-season for Gilham, Birchall, Murphy, Young, Renouf, Ellis, Rioli, and co is still needed.

But agree that players like Williams and Boyle need to find some of that old form.

If you recall, Franklin and Roughead weren't instant stars either. Both needed to be sent back to the reserves at various stages.

But, at 12-2, this is far beyond my expectations this year. Just be patient and enjoy the ride.

[Hawk0373]

I think we might have found a solution to strengthen the backline.

Renouf was impressive on Friday night both in the ruck and his work around the ground. He has 6-8 games to cement a finals berth - he knows it and I reckon he can do it if the club went this way..

The setup
Taylor & Renouf to ruck most of the day, Robbie Campbell to assist Croad in the Gorilla dept.

Why Rob Campbell?
He has proven time and time again that when he plays defence he is more than capable and has the required agression, size, tank & skills to be very effective for us. He can crash packs, thump the ball, take contested marks, chase/tackle and link up the runners.

Possible backline
Gilham (192cm) Campbell (199cm) Brown (180cm)
Guerra (178cm) Croad (190cm) Birchall (193cm)

Defensive support crew
Bateman, Hodge, Dew, Ladson, Ellis, Osbourne, Sewell, Mitchell

All of a sudden this looks a good mix of talls, grunt & polish.

Positives
Gilham plays on 3rd "tall"
Taller, bigger backline more capable of controlling balls bombed in long.
Ladson allowed to play a sweeper role.
Renouf gets fast tracked ruck experience

Negatives
Ruck quality?
Not a lot of time to trial, could be risky.

With 8 rounds left I don't think our current backline, 22 or gameplan will take us far into September.
I think at full strength we can beat anyone but I also know that we need a plan B that covers long kicking into the defensive 50 and contested footy in general.

[mess]

I think we might have found a solution to strengthen the backline.

Renouf was impressive on Friday night both in the ruck and his work around the ground. He has 6-8 games to cement a finals berth - he knows it and I reckon he can do it if the club went this way..

The setup
Taylor & Renouf to ruck most of the day, Robbie Campbell to assist Croad in the Gorilla dept.

Why Rob Campbell?
He has proven time and time again that when he plays defence he is more than capable and has the required agression, size, tank & skills to be very effective for us. He can crash packs, thump the ball, take contested marks, chase/tackle and link up the runners.

Possible backline
Gilham (192cm) Campbell (199cm) Brown (180cm)
Guerra (178cm) Croad (190cm) Birchall (193cm)

Defensive support crew
Bateman, Hodge, Dew, Ladson, Ellis, Osbourne, Sewell, Mitchell

All of a sudden this looks a good mix of talls, grunt & polish.

Positives
Gilham plays on 3rd "tall"
Taller, bigger backline more capable of controlling balls bombed in long.
Ladson allowed to play a sweeper role.
Renouf gets fast tracked ruck experience

Negatives
Ruck quality?
Not a lot of time to trial, could be risky.

With 8 rounds left I don't think our current backline, 22 or gameplan will take us far into September.
I think at full strength we can beat anyone but I also know that we need a plan B that covers long kicking into the defensive 50 and contested footy in general.

Robbie Campbell is nowhere near quick enough off the mark to go with a decent Full Forward.

Isn't time Zac Dawson was brought back in? He's not the same Napoleon Dynamite lookalike that got rag-dolled by Rocca all those many rounds ago(was that 2006?). What was the point of throwing him to the Silverbacks back then if we're not now going to give him an opportunity to step up when we're short exactly one dominant tall defender and he's now gained the size and match practice to be able to make that role his own?

As you say, there's 8 rounds left and we're guaranteed September action. Time to give Zac the opportunity to get the match practice he needs at the elite level to be able to win his position in the finals.

[mess]

Gilly has played some cracking football this year, kind of reminds me if that Midnight Oil song 'Short Memory" :rolleyes:

Murphy is too slow but we don't have that extra option yet.....

Lighten Up, 12 & 2 and beat the Woosies by 10 goals :)


That was when opposition midfields couldn't find a quick and direct route to the forward line, people are finding ways to negate the Cluster now, and our backmen can't expect to have the sit on their opponents 80% of the time.

Gilham hasn't won a contest against a decent full-forward getting decent delivery all year, and I don't see that he's likely to.

He's a good defender, but not a key defender.

[lethalselbow]

I think we might have found a solution to strengthen the backline.

Renouf was impressive on Friday night both in the ruck and his work around the ground. He has 6-8 games to cement a finals berth - he knows it and I reckon he can do it if the club went this way..

The setup
Taylor & Renouf to ruck most of the day, Robbie Campbell to assist Croad in the Gorilla dept.

Why Rob Campbell?
He has proven time and time again that when he plays defence he is more than capable and has the required agression, size, tank & skills to be very effective for us. He can crash packs, thump the ball, take contested marks, chase/tackle and link up the runners.

Possible backline
Gilham (192cm) Campbell (199cm) Brown (180cm)
Guerra (178cm) Croad (190cm) Birchall (193cm)

Defensive support crew
Bateman, Hodge, Dew, Ladson, Ellis, Osbourne, Sewell, Mitchell

All of a sudden this looks a good mix of talls, grunt & polish.

Positives
Gilham plays on 3rd "tall"
Taller, bigger backline more capable of controlling balls bombed in long.
Ladson allowed to play a sweeper role.
Renouf gets fast tracked ruck experience

Negatives
Ruck quality?
Not a lot of time to trial, could be risky.

With 8 rounds left I don't think our current backline, 22 or gameplan will take us far into September.
I think at full strength we can beat anyone but I also know that we need a plan B that covers long kicking into the defensive 50 and contested footy in general.

Good post, but I completely disagree. I don't think Campbell is up to the job down back and it would also cripple our ruck combination which has been working beautifully all season. I like seeing both Campbell and Taylor dropping back there during games to fill the space. They've both taken some game saving marks.

I like all our backline players, but think that it may be time for Dawson to be given a try in the mix. Croad is the key to the whole set up and that was obvious again on Friday night.

Someone also mentioned that they didn't think Campbell Brown was having as good a year as last year. I reckon that's right. He's still been really good, but maybe a shade down on last season.

[ViperV10]

Isn't time Zac Dawson was brought back in?

Absolutely not. He doesn't have the smarts or skills to play at AFL level.

[mess]

No? Dominated all year at VFL, kept Cleve Hughes mute the other week, how smart does he have to be? Does he get confused at the last minute of a marking contest with the old "Hey! Is that Elvis?" trick? Get distracted chasing seagulls?

If he can soundly beat an opposition full forward in a one on one he's got one up on Gilham. Put him in, I say.

[Hawk0373]

Good post, but I completely disagree. I don't think Campbell is up to the job down back and it would also cripple our ruck combination which has been working beautifully all season. I like seeing both Campbell and Taylor dropping back there during games to fill the space. They've both taken some game saving marks.

I like all our backline players, but think that it may be time for Dawson to be given a try in the mix. Croad is the key to the whole set up and that was obvious again on Friday night.

Someone also mentioned that they didn't think Campbell Brown was having as good a year as last year. I reckon that's right. He's still been really good, but maybe a shade down on last season.

Fair enough, we at least agree there's a need to tinker between now and Sept. Not sure about Dawson, if he can't get a game when Croad is out he won't get one when all are in - says plenty.

Brown has been beaten a few times by bigger opponents this year. Gilham has been exposed one on one a few times also.

Finals footy becomes more contested where more balls are bombed in long. With the abovementioned deficiencies there might be a need for a bigger body down back - I'd lose half my beer through shaking watching Dawson under a high ball.

I think Robbie can fill this void nicely if/when required - yep, but it depends on how well Renouf settles in.

Another factor is the missing mids - our bold ball movement through the corridor requires skilled runners, get Crawf, Hodge, Mitch, Sewell & Changa all playing together and the defence won't be under as much pressure.

[mess]

Finals footy becomes more contested where more balls are bombed in long. With the abovementioned deficiencies there might be a need for a bigger body down back - I'd lose half my beer through shaking watching Dawson under a high ball.


I shake watching Gilham. Dawson is taller and stronger than Gilham. Probably quicker too.

[Hawk0373]

I shake watching Gilham. Dawson is taller and stronger than Gilham. Probably quicker too.

So is Quentin Lynch. There's more to a defender than size.

The last time I looked, Gilham has it over Dawson in

Marking
Kicking
Handball
Link/Running to create
Decision making
Spoiling
Below the knees
Awareness/reading the play
Tackling

Would be happy to be proven wrong as this would mean that Zac is ready for a recall.

[mess]

When was the last time you looked?

Dawson has been amongst BHH's best all last year and all this year, and hasn't been beaten by an opposition forward for a while. Gilham may well be more skilled delivery wise (althought I don't know that he is) but he can't stop a quality forward. We have enough skill and polish in our backline, what we don't have and desperately need is stopping power. If the selectors thought Dawson wasn't a prospect in this regard he wouldn't have been played on the big'uns 2 years ago when he was 70 something kilos wet. He did OK in all categories bar strength contests as I recall, and was made to look foolish. Won't happen again.

[bryan_1981]

like it or not we do need a zac dawson type, someone a bit bigger and stronger to play on those big forwards... I really hope Zac makes it his own I really do

[boozeDragon]

When was the last time you looked?

Dawson has been amongst BHH's best all last year and all this year, and hasn't been beaten by an opposition forward for a while. Gilham may well be more skilled delivery wise (althought I don't know that he is) but he can't stop a quality forward. We have enough skill and polish in our backline, what we don't have and desperately need is stopping power. If the selectors thought Dawson wasn't a prospect in this regard he wouldn't have been played on the big'uns 2 years ago when he was 70 something kilos wet. He did OK in all categories bar strength contests as I recall, and was made to look foolish. Won't happen again.

Maybe Zac has improved heaps but Clarkson is very hesitant to bring him back into the AFL after all his mental scarring? He might personally feel guilty and he wants to make sure that he's 100% ready for the top level...?

[lethalselbow]

I think that Gilham is taller than Croad - and he is much taller than Brown who gets the big guys. I think he needs to go to the gym and work out with Clinty and Xman over Christmas so they can all bulk up and play good footy in 09.

He is 1-2cm taller than Croad, but doesn't look it. I think he's going to be a great player for us, but currently think he struggles when he's got the No. 1 Forward.

[lethalselbow]

Maybe Zac has improved heaps but Clarkson is very hesitant to bring him back into the AFL after all his mental scarring? He might personally feel guilty and he wants to make sure that he's 100% ready for the top level...?

Interesting point. :thumbsu:

[mess]

Maybe Zac has improved heaps but Clarkson is very hesitant to bring him back into the AFL after all his mental scarring? He might personally feel guilty and he wants to make sure that he's 100% ready for the top level...?

How big a factor this is depends on Zac's maturity as a person, but arguably his performances and physical growth since his debut few matches indicate he's fully dedicated preperation-wise and mustard keen to get another crack.

If you want to help the bloke get over 'mental scarring', show some faith in him and give him a job. Personally I think a game on O'Loughlin would be an ideal start for his second foray into AFL football.

[Nightwolf]

Why cant we ever just find a young backman who looks capable. In my book, Gilham has been shaky since day one.

Watching players like Garland, Patful etc. just makes me want to put Thorp there and leave him there.

[mess]

I just reckon it's rough we put Zac in the deep end at a young age when he was clearly going to get severely out muscled, then when he gets severely out muscled we shrug our shoulders, say "experiment failed" and send him to the two's indefinitely.

Why hasn't he got a game since?

[Brownie_30]

Gilham and Murphy both strike me as perfect 3rd tall defenders, not quite big enough to take the monsters but able to do a job on a tall or mid size forward. Both are great going the other way, and rarely make a wrong decision.

I think they are, in the long term, playing for the one position in the team. But in the interim, unless Zac comes back in (and I am not opposed to trying this for a couple of weeks), they are the best we have and I don't have the stats on me but I wouldn't think Gilham would be leading the "reverse Coleman".

I also wonder how much this intense training which we are currently undertaking is affecting all players?

[mess]

Certainly not in contention for the Reverse Coleman, but few sensible people would argue he's as quality a key defender as Lake, Merrett, Glass, Ryder or even Nathan Brown, who are on the list. Arguably North's Gibson and Firrito are more effective in contests in spite of their size.

Hawthorn have the fewest Inside 50's conceded in the league, this has helped our backline a lot.

[bEnJi]

Gilham and Murphy are struggling and Brown is not in the form he was last year because of 1 reason OUR GAME PLAN!!!

It leaves our last line of defence which is more often then not these 3 boys terribly exposed with to much space infront of them. Changing the game plan or bringing in Dawson is not the answer, the cluster works well because we conceed the fewest inside 50 in the comp, and i think we should work on improvng on that.

[Brownie_30]

Certainly not in contention for the Reverse Coleman, but few sensible people would argue he's as quality a key defender as Lake, Merrett, Glass, Ryder or even Nathan Brown, who are on the list. Arguably North's Gibson and Firrito are more effective in contests in spite of their size.

Hawthorn have the fewest Inside 50's conceded in the league, this has helped our backline a lot.
I get your point, but I must say Gilham is alright without excelling when in a contest.

Fewest inside 50's is to do with the "zone".

As I said before its not a long term solution. Also, I would consider Gilham as our third defender, its unfair to consider him against teams best defenders like Lake, Glass and Merrett. Brown and Ryder are a fairer comparison.

[mess]

The Cluster is HOW we conceded the fewest Inside 50's. But because teams are coming to terms with the Cluster, and because this tactic leaves our back line exposed when it breaks down, is exactly why imo our last line needs strengthening. This is why we need a full back who can dominate one-on-one, with this gameplan. As servicable as he is as a defender, Gilham can't really consistantly do this. Croad can, but he's too good at Centre Half Forward. Dawson just seems the clear best bet this season.

Brown's been playing very well under increased pressure & responsibility this season. With our half backs moving upfield to attack with the ball and form a zone without it he's been left to carry the can a bit, and he's done it well. It's just that there's less fanfare.

[mess]

As I said before its not a long term solution. Also, I would consider Gilham as our third defender, its unfair to consider him against teams best defenders like Lake, Glass and Merrett. Brown and Ryder are a fairer comparison.

It's not unfair because 2nd key defender is the role he's being asked to play. I am not advocating dropping Gilham, but playing him as the third defender, where he would excel.

[Brownie_30]

The cluster is the reason we look so bad down back. Players keeping the zone are unable to pick up there opponents in time or with enough time to get in best position.

[mess]

^True.

[Time Machine]

Why hasn't he got a game since?Maybe its because he is no good, he struggles at VFL level, out of 44 players on our list he would be 36th in ability.

[rumblah]

I am one of Gilhams' biggest fans, I also really like Murphy as a backmen. Gilham, in his 2nd full season has looked almost lost down back so far this year. He tries his heart out and definately has great foot skills.

Personally, I think the expectation is a bit too high on these players, something that I think should change. Not by the club, but supporters. I hope they can both turn it around.

[GoBuddy]

I seen a lot of games this year and I still go back to the backline we need to improve more to be in the Grand final. Gilham needs to step up and Murphy I would drop.
What are your thoughts?

All seriousness Gilham is very weak and clumzy. It seems like everytime the ball is kicked to a one on one contest he tries to find body contact instead of attacking the ball. He also looses his footing too much. I think he needs to just attack the ball hard and dont worry about his man. Croady is beauty we looked poised wen his down there. I wonder how our backline will function when we play the saints round 16 as they have a very tall forward line.

[BuddyHawkers]

All seriousness Gilham is very weak and clumzy. It seems like everytime the ball is kicked to a one on one contest he tries to find body contact instead of attacking the ball. He also looses his footing too much. I think he needs to just attack the ball hard and dont worry about his man. Croady is beauty we looked poised wen his down there. I wonder how our backline will function when we play the saints round 16 as they have a very tall forward line.

Yes, That will be a big ask for Murphy and Gilham.
We need another Croad big and strong.

[Kebab]

[quote=CouchPotato;11530089]Our backline has worried me from round 1. As soon as the ball comes in fast and long and it is a one on one contest we lose out far more times that we win won. Other clubs are now starting to realise this ie. kangas who deliberately kicked it long and we were constantly caught out of position.quote]

I would think that this would be the case for 95% of defenders across the competition...If the ball is coming in quickly, we are going to struggle.

As a TEAM we are rated about 4th in defense (about the same in attack, but thats another thread), which in my reckoning is pretty good. Especially when compared to other 'super' defences of Sydney/Adelaide/Geelong...

Murphy's efficiency is about 99%, and Gilham's would probably be about 90% as well, so there disposal can not be questioned, although I would agree that Murphy sometimes makes the wrong decision in his disposal.

With the zone that we play, it is always going to be hard for our defenders when the ball is moved over the zone quickly, and more often then not, these players are completely out of position due to their zoning, rather then matching up directly with the opponents. This is a directive from the coaching staff and the way we play. Teams have fewer inside 50's because of these tactics, but it is inevitable that when they do get it inside their 50, they are going to score more often then any other side.

I don't think that Dawson (or anyone on our list), Thorp looked completely out of place from what I saw on Saturday in the VFL, although admittedly I didn't see the entire game, would do any better then the back 6 that we have at the moment.

Oh yeah, and didn't we keep the opposition to 69 points on Friday. And yes, I know it was West Coast, but it was 69 points. Thats a pretty impressive stat...

[mess]

Maybe its because he is no good, he struggles at VFL level, out of 44 players on our list he would be 36th in ability.

Nonsense.

[Time Machine]

Nonsense.you rate him, where is he on our list? nonsense well sounds like you watch BHH as I do, we must be watching different teams, for those who get spooked if Gilham or Murphy has the footy you will be crapping yourself if Zac gets back, he is a very ordinary footballer, no footy brain, can't kick...his only asset is he sometimes and thats not often can punch the ball in a marking contest.

[WaxHawk]

[quote=CouchPotato;11530089]Our backline has worried me from round 1. As soon as the ball comes in fast and long and it is a one on one contest we lose out far more times that we win won. Other clubs are now starting to realise this ie. kangas who deliberately kicked it long and we were constantly caught out of position.quote]

I would think that this would be the case for 95% of defenders across the competition...If the ball is coming in quickly, we are going to struggle.

As a TEAM we are rated about 4th in defense (about the same in attack, but thats another thread), which in my reckoning is pretty good. Especially when compared to other 'super' defences of Sydney/Adelaide/Geelong...

Murphy's efficiency is about 99%, and Gilham's would probably be about 90% as well, so there disposal can not be questioned, although I would agree that Murphy sometimes makes the wrong decision in his disposal.

With the zone that we play, it is always going to be hard for our defenders when the ball is moved over the zone quickly, and more often then not, these players are completely out of position due to their zoning, rather then matching up directly with the opponents. This is a directive from the coaching staff and the way we play. Teams have fewer inside 50's because of these tactics, but it is inevitable that when they do get it inside their 50, they are going to score more often then any other side.

I don't think that Dawson (or anyone on our list), Thorp looked completely out of place from what I saw on Saturday in the VFL, although admittedly I didn't see the entire game, would do any better then the back 6 that we have at the moment.

Oh yeah, and didn't we keep the opposition to 69 points on Friday. And yes, I know it was West Coast, but it was 69 points. Thats a pretty impressive stat...

Like this post.
I think that Gilham and Murphy both struggle in one on one contests which they have to do a lot with the game plan that we have.
The plusses as pointed out above is the kicking efficiency of the duo, which is important to the game plan.

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Brown on Hansen shows where Gilham and Murphy are rated. The only backman that can win a one on one is Croad. Our backline is thin to say the least.

Completely agree. People have brown and gold tinted glasses about Gilham. He's best match-up seems to be on a medium sized defender that is slow and not good one-on-one. He doesn't get enough of the pill to be a third tall and not great when as a third tall, he has to play on a tall.

Cam Mooney might even kick goals on him !!

[mess]

you rate him, where is he on our list? nonsense well sounds like you watch BHH as I do, we must be watching different teams, for those who get spooked if Gilham or Murphy has the footy you will be crapping yourself if Zac gets back, he is a very ordinary footballer, no footy brain, can't kick...his only asset is he sometimes and thats not often can punch the ball in a marking contest.

You said he struggles at VFL level. Nonsense. Everytime I hear about a BHH game he is mentioned as a Hawks standout. He has a very specific job, and by all credible report, he excels at it at VFL level.

I don't get spooked when Gilham or Murphy have the footy, I get spooked when it's up to them to win the footy against a quality forward in a marking contest. Let Dawson be a spoiler and dish out/create crumbs for those with good skills (of which we have an abundance in our backline) to move it up the ground. It's called teamwork.

[Alabama Hot Pocket]

I have been possibly the boards biggest Zac hater but I think its time. Gilham needs to gain some perspective with the mustangs. Dawson in for a week or two and Gilham out for a few weeks

[HawkXNtric]

Slightly off-topic, but I've been thinking a lot lately about what high expectations we have for our players these days. Watching the game on Friday night it struck me how good a player Croad is and how much we miss Croady when he is out of the team. I only saw him get beaten once against the Eagles, and that was by the umpire (not that there was anything wrong with the free) rather than by his opponent.

Croad has now been playing AFL footy for more than 10 seasons and has played over 200 games. He is, quite simply, one of the best key defenders in the competition. Gilham comes nowhere near him, but then again Gilham has only played 30 games or so. I remember that Croady in his first couple of seasons quite often looked like a fish out of water.

My point is that Gilham may well become a gun defender in 5 years' time after he has 100 - 150 games under his belt. But look at other players (particularly key position players and ruckmen) on our list. Campbell and Taylor are only just now developing into a top ruck duo, at the ages of 25 or thereabouts and after having been around for a while. What high expectations we have on the likes of Bailey, Renouf, McEntee & Walsh. Some of these kids may become guns IF they survive on our list until the age of 25.

It seems to me that key defender and ruck are two positions that really require players with adequate bulk and experience - two values not often seen in 18 year-old rookies.

Anyway, I've gone right off-topic now, but I guess my point is that many players are late-developers who get lost to AFL footy simply because they don't turn into Chris Judd or Lance Franklin in their first 3 seasons.

Hopefully at least one of Gilham or Murphy will stay around on our list for long enough to develop into a quality 2nd or 3rd defender.

[borgo]

I dont think Gilham will be in our 22 come round 22, 2009

[Unique]

I dont think Gilham will be in our 22 come round 22, 2009

He is turning 24 this year. Always a misconception about his age.

He ain't getting any younger.

Unless he can put on some muscle I somewhat agree.

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

I dont think Gilham will be in our 22 come round 22, 2009

If Dowler and Thorpe come on, he could be in trouble, because I'd be amazed if we don't add a quality key defender to our list before then.

[lethalselbow]

I dont think Gilham will be in our 22 come round 22, 2009

He is turning 24 this year. Always a misconception about his age.

He ain't getting any younger.

Unless he can put on some muscle I somewhat agree.

lol. I think borgo was talking about player numbers and rounds, not age. :D

[Unique]

lol. I think borgo was talking about player numbers and rounds, not age. :D

I know that! LOL.

That had nothing to do with my post.

I was just agreeing with him.

[apiro]

I am one of Gilhams' biggest fans, I also really like Murphy as a backmen. Gilham, in his 2nd full season has looked almost lost down back so far this year. He tries his heart out and definately has great foot skills.

Personally, I think the expectation is a bit too high on these players, something that I think should change. Not by the club, but supporters. I hope they can both turn it around.

I would echo these sentiments.

Yes both players have looked out of sorts at times, especially when Croady was unavailable. Both are young and we should be more patient especially given we are 12-2 despite these observations.

Another point to note is that only 3 other teams have better defensive record - Sydney, Geelong and Adelaide.

Finally, I suspect with Clarko's gameplan, our backmen are part of a larger defensive network designed not to catch our backmen one out against a bigger opponents.