End of Year Planning

[The Punter]

Apologies for bringing down the mood of the board for a few moments, but with two months remaining in the season (hopefully plus finals), it is about time to start thinking about any list changes for the off-season.

The list of players who are out of contract at the end of the year (according to Saintsational) are:

Xavier Clarke
Leigh Fisher
Max Hudghton
Fraser Gehrig
Michael Gardiner
Matthew Ferguson
Shane Birss
Charlie Gardiner
Brad Howard
Andrew McQualter
James Gwilt
Robert Harvey
Jarryd Allen
Clinton Jones
Luke Van Rheenan
Robert Eddy
Jarryn Geary
Jayden Attard
Stephen Milne

Firstly, let's actually admit the un-admit-able and assume Robert Harvey is retiring at the end of the year. Let's also assume that rookie elevation Robert Eddy gets another contract. With Connors and Maguire back on the senior list, that leaves us with four more players (at least) to delist, without assuming that we elevate Luke Miles. At that stage we have 39 listed players, and five rookies.

Who is likely to get delisted?

Xavier Clarke - is a required player, although often injured
Leigh Fisher - in trouble
Max Hudghton - obviously a year-to-year proposition, but should go round again
Fraser Gehrig - almost certainly will retire
Michael Gardiner - form warrants another year, body may not
Matthew Ferguson - four games since being delisted previously, would seem in trouble
Shane Birss - can't seem to get a game
Charlie Gardiner - would seem a little hasty to delist after one year, but not getting younger
Brad Howard - development not happening as we would like
Andrew McQualter - seems to have saved career
James Gwilt - many still not convinced, many think being played at wrong end of the ground
Robert Harvey - likely to retire
Jarryd Allen - would appear safe
Clinton Jones - would appear safe
Luke Van Rheenan - need to open up another rookie spot, so in trouble
Robert Eddy - would appear safe
Jarryn Geary - would appear safe
Jayden Attard - likely to be retained, but would need to be elevated
Stephen Milne - would be disappointed if delisted

So, in short, Leigh Fisher, Matthew Ferguson and Fraser Gehrig appear gone, along with Robert Harvey's sad and premature retirement. Add LVR to that list of the rookies. With the permanent elevation of McQualter, Eddy and Attard, that would leave one spot open on the senior list. Still need two others.

The next group most likely would be Birss, C Gardiner, Gwilt & Howard. Giving Howard another year would mean it would likely be C Gardiner, Birss or Gwilt. Birss is the only one not playing at the moment, and we'll add C Gardiner to the list.

So:

Elevate: McQualter, Eddy, Attard
Delist senior: Harvey, Gehrig, Ferguson, L Fisher, Birss, C Gardiner
Delist rookie: LVR
Retain rookie: Miles, Chivers, Haretuku

Senior list: 35 (including veterans)
Rookie list: 3

We may be able to get around this by having our veterans outside of the 38, but I'm not sure of the rules regarding that. I'm also not sure of when Lenny Hayes becomes an eligible veteran (Hayes & Baker are both in their 10th season at the club).

(PS: Having said all this, Rix and Fiora are under contract for 2009. The Saints delisted McQualter last year despite his being under contract for 2008. Their salary still counts against the salary cap although they are not on the list.)

[Sir Robert]

Gees good work Punter.

I think you have been very busy judging by what I saw on the main boardas well as this.

Really delistings are also going to depend on where we finish.

Being optimistic if I said 4th, then we'd have picks 13,29,45,61,76.

I would not imagine we'd use 61 and 76 unless it was a good draft (I am unsure of the depth of this years draft... Anybody???). So we'd only require 3 spots.

From Nexus Helen's point of view if we finished 10th, we will get picks 7,23,39,55,71,87. (I would assume we'd use the first 4 picks, so effectively need 4 spots).

Of the delistings mentioned I think Birss will be quite safe, and some of the guys getting a game are getting one to try figure out whether they will be worth a spot come seasons end (Chucky G and Gwilt come to mind).

I think C Gardiner, Gwilt and Howard to go (try re-draft Howard as a rookie). Also agree LVR and L Fishers time may be up which is a shame as he (L Fish) is sometimes quite serviceable.

Fiora's form is cause for him to be looking in the positions vacant section even if it means paying out his contract. Can't drop Dal Santo for effort and hardness and leave this guy on the list.

[Squizzy1970]

Some real good analysis, but too far out for mine.

Attard will be back soon, and assume he will need to show something in the games with Casey.

A number of others need to show plenty before the season is out.

I would prefer that the Saints make some calls, rather than keep guys on the list who aren't likely to get senior game time. I don't have any problem with cutting someone even if they have only been on the list for a year (if they have a 1 year contract then they don't get another year out of sympathy).

I'd also prefer the rookie list to not be used for ruckmen, as unless they are top under-age performers they can make 5 years to develop.

[TassieSaint]

Fiora and Rix must go, surely they can't be on that much that it would effect our salary cap that badly. Birss deserves another go, he is second only to Baker and maybe Blake as a shutdown player and is better than both of them at tagging half backs. Personally I think we should go for a big clean out and, on top of the guys you mentioned (minus Birss), delist blokes like McQualter and Gwilt. Sure Mini and to a lesser extent Gwilt have improved slightly, but I have still seen nothing to suggest they will be anything else but good VFL players. List cloggers if I ever saw them. We'll have 5 usable picks in the National Draft, but I'd also like to see us trade non-essential players for picks allowing us to pick 7-8 kids to build on for the future.

[SaintsSeptember]

Fiora and Rix must go, surely they can't be on that much that it would effect our salary cap that badly. Birss deserves another go, he is second only to Baker and maybe Blake as a shutdown player and is better than both of them at tagging half backs. Personally I think we should go for a big clean out and, on top of the guys you mentioned (minus Birss), delist blokes like McQualter and Gwilt. Sure Mini and to a lesser extent Gwilt have improved slightly, but I have still seen nothing to suggest they will be anything else but good VFL players. List cloggers if I ever saw them. We'll have 5 usable picks in the National Draft, but I'd also like to see us trade non-essential players for picks allowing us to pick 7-8 kids to build on for the future.

I think you are pretty right. Also I suspect that Birss is being kept down while some of the others are given a good tryout.
Also if I was the coach I would be trying to get Banger and Max to go again, rather than push them out.

If the salary cap can stand it.
Fiora , Rix, Ferguson, Fish
These players are no better than some of our new rookies, and the rookies may develop a lot more over the next couple of years.

Younger guys who may still develop but are developing too slowly.
McQualter, Gwilt, R Clarke . They are all getting a run this year and if they don't look like taking the next step they may be gone.

Young guys who havent made the grade, Howard.

Hard choices. Goose, it kills me to put him here but will he play a season again? And Van Rheenan, a developing ruckman rookie, but he lost the whole season this year.

IMO there are plenty of players that can go, without affecting our main playing group, and we should make as much room as we need to get a full draft. and some new rookies.

No need to push out Max and Harves, they are too useful. :)

[ChrisFooty]

St.kilda made a big boo boo in giving both Fiora and Rix contracts beyond 2008.

Rix might be retained. What happens if all of Kosi, King and Gardiner are injured. It could happen, as these three players have been shown in the past to have injury problems. They seem all good this year (Great work from Mission) but it could possibly happen. If all three go down, you would have Macca and Blake doing the ruck work. Big trouble. Macca will only be in his second season (still developing) and Blake should never ever do centre bounce ruck work.

With Fiora - both his NAB cup and senior appearances in the season proper have been quite poor.

[ChrisFooty]

Dempster was given a two year contract (interesting) Charlie Gardnier, Ferguson and L. Fisher are the ones in big trouble. Gwilt and Mcqualter both have their chance to prove themselves in the senior team in coming weeks.

[SaintsSeptember]

St.kilda made a big boo boo in giving both Fiora and Rix contracts beyond 2008.

Rix might be retained. What happens if all of Kosi, King and Gardiner are injured. It could happen, as these three players have been shown in the past to have injury problems. They seem all good this year (Great work from Mission) but it could possibly happen. If all three go down, you would have Macca and Blake doing the ruck work. Big trouble. Macca will only be in his second season (still developing) and Blake should never ever do centre bounce ruck work.

With Fiora - both his NAB cup and senior appearances in the season proper have been quite poor.

It would be a disaster , but no worse than if Reiwoldt and Kosi were both injured, or if Max and S Fisher and Goddard were all injured. It would be incredibly bad luck if Kosi, King and Gardner all sustained long term injuries at the same time, and Rix as an inclusion would not necessarily fix the problem we would then have.

[NeXus_Helen]

Player
D.O.B.
Action
Steve Baker
22/05/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Jason Blake
15/03/1981
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Raphael Clarke
24/09/1985
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Xavier Clarke
28/09/1983
Trade for any pick under 25, if no takers, keep.
Aaron Fiora
19/04/1981
Trade for any pick under 45, if no takers, de-list.
Michael Gardiner
05/07/1979
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.
Fraser Gehrig
03/03/1976
Retire.
Robert Harvey
21/08/1971
Retire.
Lenny Hayes
14/01/1980
Trade for any pick under 20, if no takers, keep.
Max Hughton
02/09/1976
Retire.
Steven King
22/11/1978
Retire.
Stephen Milne
08/03/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Michael Rix
01/08/1981
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.

[Squizzy1970]

King, Gardiner, Blake and Rix to all feel the axe of the Nexus?

Good thing we will keep Schneider, as he will obviously be doing some rucking.

Getting rid of Hayes and Baker would almost be asking Riewoldt to go to the Gold Coast - why would he stay loyal if the club gets rid of popular players?

For mine :

Nexus Helen
6/6/66
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.

[goodie23]

If the extra rookie spots that was mentioned as part of the GC consolation package come through this year, that could save LVR.

I'd love to see Birss get another year and get a fair crack at the seniors. We've treated him like crap this year. He's not the fastest player on any list, but he's solid, fairly reliable and a decent kick. It's not much of a stretch to see him take on an Andrew Thompson role in the middle

I'd also prefer the rookie list to not be used for ruckmen, as unless they are top under-age performers they can make 5 years to develop.

Disagree, I think the rookie list is perfect for ruckmen. With King and Gardiner hopefully holding down the senior ruck spots for the next year or two, and Kosi, McEvoy and Rix (if he's retained) filling in that gives us the perfect chance to take a chance on a raw ruckman or two and spend that time filling out in the rookie list. Maybe Blake McGrath and Khan Haretaku (don't know if the plan's ruckman or forward for him)

[Squizzy1970]

If the extra rookie spots that was mentioned as part of the GC consolation package come through this year, that could save LVR.

Disagree, I think the rookie list is perfect for ruckmen. With King and Gardiner hopefully holding down the senior ruck spots for the next year or two, and Kosi, McEvoy and Rix (if he's retained) filling in that gives us the perfect chance to take a chance on a raw ruckman or two and spend that time filling out in the rookie list. Maybe Blake McGrath and Khan Haretaku (don't know if the plan's ruckman or forward for him)

These two are scholarship projects, so different in my view to normal rookies. There are too many pacy types around who may become good players in the short term (rather than long term prospects) to not load up on them on the rookie list.

What's the possible GC concession?

[SaintsSeptember]

If the extra rookie spots that was mentioned as part of the GC consolation package come through this year, that could save LVR.

I'd love to see Birss get another year and get a fair crack at the seniors. We've treated him like crap this year. He's not the fastest player on any list, but he's solid, fairly reliable and a decent kick. It's not much of a stretch to see him take on an Andrew Thompson role in the middle



Disagree, I think the rookie list is perfect for ruckmen. With King and Gardiner hopefully holding down the senior ruck spots for the next year or two, and Kosi, McEvoy and Rix (if he's retained) filling in that gives us the perfect chance to take a chance on a raw ruckman or two and spend that time filling out in the rookie list. Maybe Blake McGrath and Khan Haretaku (don't know if the plan's ruckman or forward for him)

Apparently Van Rheenan was looking OK, but he is injured for the rest of this season. I think we have to elevate him this year, or drop him off the list. ( Unless there is a provision for injuries ) Rotton timing for the Kid.

HL's plan is just terrific, just trade all the players for any sh**. I hope she isn't a surgeon in the real world, she would be curing colds by ripping lungs out. :rolleyes:

[goodie23]

These two are scholarship projects, so different in my view to normal rookies. There are too many pacy types around who may become good players in the short term (rather than long term prospects) to not load up on them on the rookie list.

What's the possible GC concession?
But the rookie list is designed to be more for long-term prospects. Gives us a chance to put kids on the roster with potential, or who'll take extra time to bulk up and learn the game. We'd want more pacy types on out main list, where they can be brought in at any time rather having to wait for someone to suffer a long-term injury.

With 6 rookie spots, plus the extra two promised to lessen the blow of GC (I don't know when this comes into effect), we should look to take at least 3, maybe even 4 talls and give them time to fill out in the VFL.

Then we'll still have 4 or 5 spots for more pacy types, who can come in when the inevitable injuries start to fall.
Apparently Van Rheenan was looking OK, but he is injured for the rest of this season. I think we have to elevate him this year, or drop him off the list. ( Unless there is a provision for injuries ) Rotton timing for the Kid.

HL's plan is just terrific, just trade all the players for any sh**. I hope she isn't a surgeon in the real world, she would be curing colds by ripping lungs out. :rolleyes:
I feel for LVR, but I just don't see us retaining him next year. We've got too much competition for elevation, but we might re-draft him onto the rookie list. I suppose in part it comes down to what we're grooming Haretaku to be. If Khan's going to be a ruckman, I suspect LVR is gone.

And let's all just ignore Nexus as we would any troll. We've already ripped apart and mocked her plan in her own thread, no sense wasting further space on it here too.

[NeXus_Helen]

King, Gardiner, Blake and Rix to all feel the axe of the Nexus?

Good thing we will keep Schneider, as he will obviously be doing some rucking.

Getting rid of Hayes and Baker would almost be asking Riewoldt to go to the Gold Coast - why would he stay loyal if the club gets rid of popular players?

For mine :

Nexus Helen
6/6/66
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.
You're an idiot. Did you read the whole post? Did you read the highlighted parts? It says if we don't get what we want half the palyers mentioned we keep and the other half are either de-listed or retired. Of course I assumed you could read. Obviously not. Below is the end result if everything worked out.

Losses & picks gained in brackets

Steve Baker (25)
Jason Blake (30)
Raphael Clarke (29)
Xavier Clarke (24)
Aaron Fiora (40)
Michael Gardiner (45)
Lenny Hyes (19)
Stephen Milne (28)
Robert Harvey
Fraser Gehrig
Max Hughton
Stephen Kimg

Picks in the upcoming 2008 National Draft....
Assuming we finish 10th this year we also get pick 7,22,37,52. We would go into the Draft with 7,19,22,24,25,28,29,30,37,40,45,52. That's a proper re-build which will see us bottom out over the next 3 years and get some more high draft picks. But by 2012 we will be back and ready to challenge for the flag again.

[SaintsSeptember]

The other way to get out of the delisting/contract/salary cap problem is to find a trade.
By trading for a late round pick the other team can get a player virtually for nothing. While it relieves the Saints of the contract. ( Of course the player needs to agree ).

It may be an advantage for someone like the Bombers or the Demons who are basically using underdone players at the moment.
I would think they would definitely be interested in the likes of C Gardner, or L Fisher, but I'm not so sure about Rix or Fiora or R Clarke.

[Hugh Jars]

Any St.Kilda supporter who wishes to trade Lenny Hayes relinquishes their right to call fellow Saints supporters idiots.

Surely you jest NH :confused:

If not - well I think we know who the real idiot is...

[wheels4]

Any St.Kilda supporter who wishes to trade Lenny Hayes relinquishes their right to call fellow Saints supporters idiots.

Surely you jest NH :confused:

If not - well I think we know who the real idiot is...

agreed;)

[The Punter]

What NH fails to appreciate in her posts is that a footy club is more than a collection of talent. Removing Baker, Hayes, Blake, Harvey, Gehrig, Clarke, Maguire along with a few others ALL AT THE SAME TIME would tear the heart out of the club.

The depth is there - we are all discussing dropping blokes like Eddy, Allen, McQualter and Gwilt for Friday night's game, despite all playing well over the last fortnight. We still have a number of players to return. Shane Birss, Leigh Fisher and Jarryn Geary have been dominating for Casey, and can't get a look in, along with Michael Rix. Ben McEvoy could only manage one game, replaced by Justin Koschitzke, who was handy v North.

While I believe some tough decisions need to be made on players such as Fiora, L Fisher, Ferguson and Brad Howard, we certainly do not need a major gutting of our list, turning over 10-15 players in the space of one off-season.

[Squizzy1970]

Agree.

The thread got hijacked again :rolleyes:.

[SaintsSeptember]

We have to remember that any draft pick ( or any job interview for that matter ) is a hit and miss process. The Saints are not public service and the flow of players does not have to be in at the bottom ( draft/rookies) and out the top ( retirement ). I think we have been guilty of persisting with poor picks when we should have said goodbye. I think it is vitally important to get a full compliment of rookies, ( look at the potential we have in Miles and Geary ) and at least three in the draft.
PS please dont feed the NH.

[NeXus_Helen]

What NH fails to appreciate in her posts is that a footy club is more than a collection of talent. Removing Baker, Hayes, Blake, Harvey, Gehrig, Clarke, Maguire along with a few others ALL AT THE SAME TIME would tear the heart out of the club.

The depth is there - we are all discussing dropping blokes like Eddy, Allen, McQualter and Gwilt for Friday night's game, despite all playing well over the last fortnight. We still have a number of players to return. Shane Birss, Leigh Fisher and Jarryn Geary have been dominating for Casey, and can't get a look in, along with Michael Rix. Ben McEvoy could only manage one game, replaced by Justin Koschitzke, who was handy v North.

While I believe some tough decisions need to be made on players such as Fiora, L Fisher, Ferguson and Brad Howard, we certainly do not need a major gutting of our list, turning over 10-15 players in the space of one off-season.
Where did I say MacGuire?

[The Punter]

I apologise for this factual error. Everything else in my post still goes uncriticised.

[NeXus_Helen]

If we don't do a full re-build like the one I am suggesting we will keep finishing between 8th and 11th for the next few years. I am not trying to be a troll. I am being serious.

Stkilda will not play in a Grand Final for at least 5 years. With that in mind, we should trade any player who is over 28 and at least get something for them. The added bonus is that that will clear the way for McEvoy and Eddy and the like to get games under their belt. It will also bottom us out for 3 years which means more high draft picks.

That's the only way for us to win a flag. Don't look at Geelong because they are a special and lucky case. They didn't have to bottom out because they got 4 father son picks with 2 being the equivelent of top 5 picks by using picks in the 40's.

If we keep recruiting and trading for the now we could go on a be mid table for the next 5 years. What is the point!!!!

[goodie23]

Trying to get this back ontrack, I wouldn't elevate McQualter. We had a massive player turnover last year (9 players, not counting Gehrig), and the list is going to be even more crowded with several rookies on the 'crap or get off the pot' list.

Eddy deserves to be elevated, Attard should be if he can recapture his form, and Miles is a possibility. Chivers may be given another year, don't know much about him, and LVR is in trouble.

So that's two, possibly three elevations, plus we have to draft at least three, which means we have to find at five or six spots. I know we have a decent length fringe, but given the way the axe was wielded last year I'd be loathe to do it again.

I would definitely like to see us retain Birss.

So I'd keep McQualter on the rookie list for another year, he's still eligible, and gives us a player we know can step up at the first LTI.

[dg102]

I dont think everyone should bag NH. Whos to say what those type of changes would do for the club. Nobody knows. Maybe shes right. Maybe completely rebuilding with good young drafts would get us a super team in 2013.

I also want to add that I dont think stkilda should carry injury prone players again, players like x clarke and mcguire in my opinion should be traded or delisted. Injury costs premierships and these guys get injured every season.

[The Punter]

My main point is still ignored by NH. She seems to think this is like Footy Fanatic - you just collect talent. Imagine what would have happened if we had got rid of Robert Harvey after the 1999 season - when he turned 28.

Any mass exodus of players will have a longer term effect on the club. Even if we brought in an incredible amount of talent, the soul of the place would be empty and it would take longer than five years to get back.

Footy clubs are built on comraderie, teamwork and attitude. Dismissing players such as Lenny Hayes, who would be captain of a lot of clubs and displays all the attributes one wants in a clubman as well as a footballer would be incredibly short-sighted.

NH, I don't think you're a troll. I just think your plan would be the worst case scenario.

[SaintsSeptember]

My main point is still ignored by NH. She seems to think this is like Footy Fanatic - you just collect talent. Imagine what would have happened if we had got rid of Robert Harvey after the 1999 season - when he turned 28.

Any mass exodus of players will have a longer term effect on the club. Even if we brought in an incredible amount of talent, the soul of the place would be empty and it would take longer than five years to get back.

Footy clubs are built on comraderie, teamwork and attitude. Dismissing players such as Lenny Hayes, who would be captain of a lot of clubs and displays all the attributes one wants in a clubman as well as a footballer would be incredibly short-sighted.

NH, I don't think you're a troll. I just think your plan would be the worst case scenario.

I agree , Sam Fisher recently discussed ( in an interview) how much he had learnt from Max Hudgeton. I don't think that the elder statemen of HN's team ( Fiora? , R Clarke? ) would impart the same wisdom.
I also don't think our list is too bad at the moment, they need to play together better. The word is "TEAM".
There are also enough passengers on the list without pushing our best 22 out the door. Assuming that HN's trades were made they would make their own room on the list. Otherwise we have others who will not make the grade that can be delisted. If Harvey and Hudgeton choose to retire than so be it, but we dont need them to make space so why push them out?

[just a line monkey]

Player
D.O.B.
Action
Steve Baker
22/05/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Jason Blake
15/03/1981
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Raphael Clarke
24/09/1985
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Xavier Clarke
28/09/1983
Trade for any pick under 25, if no takers, keep.
Aaron Fiora
19/04/1981
Trade for any pick under 45, if no takers, de-list.
Michael Gardiner
05/07/1979
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.
Fraser Gehrig
03/03/1976
Retire.
Robert Harvey
21/08/1971
Retire.
Lenny Hayes
14/01/1980
Trade for any pick under 20, if no takers, keep.
Max Hughton
02/09/1976
Retire.
Steven King
22/11/1978
Retire.
Stephen Milne
08/03/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Michael Rix
01/08/1981
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.

May as well throw away any centre clearances for the next couple of seasons

[ChrisFooty]

You're an idiot. Did you read the whole post? Did you read the highlighted parts? It says if we don't get what we want half the palyers mentioned we keep and the other half are either de-listed or retired. Of course I assumed you could read. Obviously not. Below is the end result if everything worked out.

Losses & picks gained in brackets

Steve Baker (25)
Jason Blake (30)
Raphael Clarke (29)
Xavier Clarke (24)
Aaron Fiora (40)
Michael Gardiner (45)
Lenny Hyes (19)
Stephen Milne (28)
Robert Harvey
Fraser Gehrig
Max Hughton
Stephen Kimg

Picks in the upcoming 2008 National Draft....
Assuming we finish 10th this year we also get pick 7,22,37,52. We would go into the Draft with 7,19,22,24,25,28,29,30,37,40,45,52. That's a proper re-build which will see us bottom out over the next 3 years and get some more high draft picks. But by 2012 we will be back and ready to challenge for the flag again.

It's laughable. No club is going to give up a top 30 pick for Raph Clarke or Jason Blake. Pick 40 for Fiora? Top 25 pick for Baker? Suggesting to trade Lenny Hayes?

Sorry to break the news but clubs are not going to offer top 30 picks for ordinary players or good players well past their prime and physical peak. (they will not want injury prone players)

[dg102]

It's laughable. No club is going to give up a top 30 pick for Raph Clarke or Jason Blake. Pick 40 for Fiora? Top 25 pick for Baker? Suggesting to trade Lenny Hayes?

Sorry to break the news but clubs are not going to offer top 30 picks for ordinary players or good players well past their prime and physical peak. (they will not want injury prone players)


What did we give up last year for Shnider and Dempster? You talk in certanties but you dont know shit

[NeXus_Helen]

Attention ChrisFooty

Which of the below trades is laughable, (as you put it)?

Lenny Hayes, for National Draft Pick 19
Xavier Clarke, for National Draft Pick 24
Steve Baker, for National Draft Pick 25
Stephen Milne, for National Draft Pick 28
Raphael Clarke, for National Draft Pick 29
Jason Blake, for National Draft Pick 30
Aaron Fiora, for National Draft Pick 40
Michael Gardiner, for National Draft Pick 45

Assuming we finish 10th this year we also get pick 7,22,37,52. We would go into the 2008 National Draft with picks 7,19,22,24,25,28,29,30,37,40,45,52. Let us analyse what we would have lost. Lenny...champion player but will be 29 next year. Xavier.....always injured. Baker...starting to get injured and tribunal problems and will be 29 next year. Milny....inconsistent goal sneak and will be 29 next year. Blake....puts in 100% but is a terrible kick for goal, not in our best 22 and will be 28 next year. Fiora....too soft, not in our best 22 and will be 28 next year. M. Gardiner....injury prone, past his best and turned 29 a couple of days ago.

Final analysis....

If we can trade 8 players who are either turning 29 next year or are injury prone, and in return we got National Draft Picks 19,24,25,28,29,30,40 and 45, I would say that would be a huge win for the Saints. Whether the above players are worth those draft picks is up for debate though. I thnk they are.

Please discuss, analyse and criticise but above all, provide your reasons. Don't just dismiss as laughable, not mentioning any names.:rolleyes:

[goodie23]

Overlooking that you've just listed reasons why teams would not make those trades, do you understand the draft system?

Pick 19: Unless 3 teams earn priority picks this year, a highly unlikely event, this'll belong to one of the bottom teams. Do you see them trading it for a 29 year old midfielder? Or the premier? On top of that Lenny is our vice captain, and a long term servant of the club. His service and his form deserve far better than for him to be booted out on his arse because he's above a certain age.

Pick 24: 2nd round pick to a mid-table team, who is unlikely to want an injury prone player with potential. Carlton might possibly nibble, but is unlikely.

Pick 25: Again, mid-table team. Baker was the best, but suspension and injury are likely to frighten off suitors. And players his age don't get traded for early picks any more (Ben Hudson was traded for less last season, despite ruckmen being at a premium).

Pick 28: Probably a team in the mid-to-lower half of the 8. Milne is erratic and unpopular. Sydney are probably the only ones who would consider, and their sights are set on Fevola and getting their house in order.

Pick 29: For Raph? You think we'd get a latish second round pick for Raph? No chance of getting that, no shot, no way, no how. Even Fremantle wouldn't do that deal.

Pick 30: Probably a top 4 team. Blake isn't really regarded outside of our club. Great motor, but ordinary skills and is best used in specific jobs. There's too much competition on top 4 lists for them to spend a second round pick on Blake.

Pick 40: 3rd rounder, bottom team. Teams down there are thinking longer term than a late 20's midfielder with no heart, and are trying to weed out chaff rather than add to it.

Pick 45: Mid-table team. This is the most likely trade to pull off, but why would we? We went to the trouble of acquiring decent ruckmen in King and Gardiner, why on earth would we piss that away? I don't know about anyone else, but I liked seeing our midfield getting some decent service for the first time in years. Not to mention the mentor value to McEvoy, Haretaku, McGrath, etc.


And that's just a straight analysis, overlooking the emotional aspect of ripping the heart and soul out of the football club because of an arbitrary age line. Accomplishing all of the above would not be a win, but a disaster.

[SaintsSeptember]

What did we give up last year for Shnider and Dempster? You talk in certanties but you dont know shit

It was draft pick 26 for both of them , what is your point?
Schneider was considered a good player on his own, and both are relatively young.:confused:

[The Punter]

OK, but I am still here waiting for NH to address my concerns. NH is still arguing like this is a computer game, and you can just trade anyone for anything and not have a non-talent related effect on a footy club.

Lenny Hayes for pick 19 would be terrible for St Kilda because the player who we pick with pick 19 would not be able to replace Lenny's leadership and presence at the club immediately. Same for almost all the others.

[Squizzy1970]

It was draft pick 26 for both of them , what is your point?
Schneider was considered a good player on his own, and both are relatively young.:confused:

I think that's his point - you don't know what clubs will trade if they are under cap pressure. Both were young premiership players who we got for a mid 20s pick. Prior to draft time, I would never have expected to get another (well performed) premiership player in Steven King for pick 90.

Some good discussions in the thread though. The hijacker has provoked an actual debate for a change - wonders never cease.

[SaintsSeptember]

I think that's his point - you don't know what clubs will trade if they are under cap pressure. Both were young premiership players who we got for a mid 20s pick. Prior to draft time, I would never have expected to get another (well performed) premiership player in Steven King for pick 90.

Some good discussions in the thread though. The hijacker has provoked an actual debate for a change - wonders never cease.

But thats my point, if the current market is such that you can get Steven King and C Gardner for pick 90 why would you trade any pick for R Clarke or A Fiora. If we started trading multiple players for draft picks we would empty our list ( you can only pick up so many during the draft ).
And what is the point of retaining McQualter , Ferguson, Howard, Gwilt who at best will only go on to become average players?

When you see discussions about Carlton and Chris Judd, they don't talk so much about how well Judd plays, as much as his leadership, and the example he sets.

My other gripe is that RL was not contracted to rebuild the team, and I would consider it an extremely low act to come into a competative team, make them uncompetative, then announce that you were ripping the team apart to rebuild. If such a rebuild is necessary than I consider that RL should be the first one out.

[Squizzy1970]

Yeah, I agree with you and Goodie.

But funnier things have happened.

And agree on the RL issue. Our recruiting last year :

Gehrig
Schneider
Gardiner C
Dempster
King
along with signing Fiora for 2 years
was all about topping up for a tilt at it, so a major clean out would be an admission that things have been cocked up.

[Persevering Saint]

We have to remember that any draft pick ( or any job interview for that matter ) is a hit and miss process. The Saints are not public service and the flow of players does not have to be in at the bottom ( draft/rookies) and out the top ( retirement ). I think we have been guilty of persisting with poor picks when we should have said goodbye. I think it is vitally important to get a full compliment of rookies, ( look at the potential we have in Miles and Geary ) and at least three in the draft.
PS please dont feed the NH.
I didn't feed anybody, did I? (I know, I know... just couldn't resist the joke...)

[SaintsSeptember]

The other thing is that if we traded out all of our good players in such a blatent fashion, it would be evident that we were tanking at an unprecedented level.
That would raise a bit of an outcry, and possibly result in the AFL changing the drafting rules to make it backfire on us while we are at rock bottom.

[dg102]

It was draft pick 26 for both of them , what is your point?
Schneider was considered a good player on his own, and both are relatively young.:confused:

IM SAYING. We gave up pick 26 NOT 30+ for Shnider at age 23 and Dempster at age 24. For example Raph is 23 and L Fish is 24. Now Im not saying that they are gonna be traded and they might not be as good as Shnider but. Sydney got rid of em. Meaning they wernt required players and we picked em up for pick 26. SO DONT SAY THAT THOSE TYPE OF TRADES CANT HAPPEN YOUR WRONG. THEY DO HAPPEN. and they probably will happen at the end of the year.

[NeXus_Helen]

IMHO, if we don't trade away certain players for draft picks then we awill be stuffed for the next 6 years. By this I mean, we will hang around 8th - 12th for a while and then crash to the bottom. If that does take 6 years to occur, (which I think it will), then all our current stars who are now mostly in their mid 20's will be on their last legs as well.

This big clean out is so we can challenge again before Rooey, Kosi, Fisher, Gramy, Goddard, Montagna, Bally can have another shot at a flag. If St kilda keep going down RL's path, by the time we are challenging again all of the above players that I have mentioned will have retired.

[The Punter]

IMHO, if we don't trade away certain players for draft picks then we awill be stuffed for the next 6 years. By this I mean, we will hang around 8th - 12th for a while and then crash to the bottom. If that does take 6 years to occur, (which I think it will), then all our current stars who are now mostly in their mid 20's will be on their last legs as well.

This big clean out is so we can challenge again before Rooey, Kosi, Fisher, Gramy, Goddard, Montagna, Bally can have another shot at a flag.... who won't feel secure in their positions at the club as anyone could go at any time. They'll also find the club a soulless place with no regard for those who have put their bodies on the line for the jumper.

Still waiting...

[SaintsSeptember]

IM SAYING. We gave up pick 26 NOT 30+ for Shnider at age 23 and Dempster at age 24. For example Raph is 23 and L Fish is 24. Now Im not saying that they are gonna be traded and they might not be as good as Shnider but. Sydney got rid of em. Meaning they wernt required players and we picked em up for pick 26. SO DONT SAY THAT THOSE TYPE OF TRADES CANT HAPPEN YOUR WRONG. THEY DO HAPPEN. and they probably will happen at the end of the year.

The only players traded for first round picks last year were pretty good players. The Lenny Hayes trade is feasible. I dont think you would get a 2nd round pick for Fish ( although the way he is playing this year a third round trade might be good). I dont think you would get anything for R Clarke.

The trouble with the HN idea, is that she seems to assume that all or neally all of the trades she suggested would happen. There would have to be a much bigger trade week than we have ever seen before. In reality we would expect that our better players would be snapped up leaving us with the average ones.

[Squizzy1970]

seems to assume that all or neally all of the trades she suggested would happen. There would have to be a much bigger trade week than we have ever seen before.

In a year where teams would be expected to go for youth pending GC concessions.

[NeXus_Helen]

The only players traded for first round picks last year were pretty good players. The Lenny Hayes trade is feasible. I dont think you would get a 2nd round pick for Fish ( although the way he is playing this year a third round trade might be good). I dont think you would get anything for R Clarke.

The trouble with the HN idea, is that she seems to assume that all or neally all of the trades she suggested would happen. There would have to be a much bigger trade week than we have ever seen before. In reality we would expect that our better players would be snapped up leaving us with the average ones.
All of the trades would not happen...I am aware of that. But if they did happen the way I have suggested the Saints would be able to re-build properly, not stuff around like RL is doing.

[dg102]

Ok enough squabling. Hayes, Baker and the likes are required players and will definately not be traded at years end. end of story. IMO if i had control of the list these are the players I would try and trade (due to underperfomance or injuries) Ive said it before I dont like injury prone players i think they cost a footy club dearly. And before you go off I know the likes of Gehrig and most of these wont be tradeable. But then I would definatley delist them. But some clubs might be interested in some of these younger guys and I would take highest drafts possible for them.

Birss, Blake, R Clarke, X Clarke, M Fergson, a Fiora, l Fisher, M Gardiner, C Gardiner, F Gehrig, J Gwilt, J Kosi, M Maguire, A Mqualter, M Rix.

Then with all the above players out and myabe + 4-5 top 30 drafts. Plus the young talent we already have (Armo, Allen, Eddy, Mc Evoy) We will easily replace thos above gone and have a real solid mix of youth coming through.

[NeXus_Helen]

Ok enough squabling. Hayes, Baker and the likes are required players and will definately not be traded at years end. end of story. IMO if i had control of the list these are the players I would try and trade (due to underperfomance or injuries) Ive said it before I dont like injury prone players i think they cost a footy club dearly. And before you go off I know the likes of Gehrig and most of these wont be tradeable. But then I would definatley delist them. But some clubs might be interested in some of these younger guys and I would take highest drafts possible for them.

Birss, Blake, R Clarke, X Clarke, M Fergson, a Fiora, l Fisher, M Gardiner, C Gardiner, F Gehrig, J Gwilt, J Kosi, M Maguire, A Mqualter, M Rix.

Then with all the above players out and myabe + 4-5 top 30 drafts. Plus the young talent we already have (Armo, Allen, Eddy, Mc Evoy) We will easily replace thos above gone and have a real solid mix of youth coming through.
Not a bad idea but you are not going to get high picks for that lot.

[Joffa 5]

Everyone seems to be assuming the players we pick with these early draft picks will blossom into superstars... Our club hasn't always used their draft picks wisely.

[TassieSaint]

If we retire King and trade Michael Gardiner, who do you suggest should ruck? You can't expect a second year ruckman in McEvoy to be first ruck he would get smashed every week and it would ruin his confidence and development. Kosi's tapwork is disgraceful and should never be first ruck and is better used elsewhere, same goes for Blake. LVR is a rookie who will be coming off a broken foot and Haretuku can't get a game in the VFL seniors. Same goes for Goose and KP back.

Assuming we finish 8th, my trades would be something along the lines of:
X. Clarke and R. Clarke -> Pick 30 odd to a West/South Australian club (closer to their family in the top end). Won't get much better than that for them I don't reckon, not even from Freo.
L. Fisher/Ferguson/Dempster/Gwilt/McQualter + pick 41 -> Pick 30-40. Essentially any combination of non-essential players and our 3rd round pick for a higher 3rd round pick.

This would leave us with:
9, 25, 30, 35, 57 as usable picks, which is plenty enough to build upon. Add Silvagni as a 5th round/PSD/rookie pick and we have a fairly good group of talented youngsters without trading away core players.

[Squizzy1970]

If we retire King and trade Michael Gardiner, who do you suggest should ruck?


I think "we" (NH) decided on Schneider in the end. :D

[dg102]

Not a bad idea but you are not going to get high picks for that lot.

like i said if we dont get the picks we want then we delist them. Im not 100% sure but if we finish in 9th i think, then we get 10th, 27th, 43rd picks, thats already 2 top 30 picks.

Add to that trade from Kosi + McQualter = maybe another top 30 draft
Then maybe X Clarke + L Fisher = Maybe another top 30 draft

and theres others in that list that are still young that might get some interest. So there you have it. 4-5 top 30 drafts. We could end up with something like.
Picks 10, 20, 25, 27. 43

And I tell ya, after watching the under 18s today. I think we would want to be very active. Some of these kids look very good.

[HoldenMCaulfield]

I don't know about you, but reading this thread (which developed from an interesting start with good work from the Punter into a satirical farce) somehow gives me an urge to cover my head with my underpants...

[Squizzy1970]

Oh shisenhausen, HMC. Fehring's got an automated "underpants-on-the-head" comment search function on his PC, so he'll be all over us again :D.

[Persevering Saint]

I don't know about you, but reading this thread (which developed from an interesting start with good work from the Punter into a satirical farce) somehow gives me an urge to cover my head with my underpants...
Well said Holden. Punter has every right to feel ripped off for having such hard work and insight ruined by petty arguing about impossiblilities.

[SaintsSeptember]

Some of you guys are quick to accuse supporters of looking through Rose colored glasses if we suggest the Saints might win anything.
Well I suggest some of the trade idea's are really looking through Rose colored glasses. Every other team selecter would have to have an attack of the stupids.
IMO the best trades you could expect would be:
Birss - No reason to suspect he will get better than pick 59 that we traded for him.
Blake - I would rank similar to Birss
R Clarke, - Nothing
X Clarke - Maybe a second round pick , but injuries may devalue him.
M Fergson - You could throw him in with X to try to get the deal
A Fiora - Probably nothing based on recent performance.
M Gardiner and C Gardiner together Pick 90 ( the same as we traded for King / Gardner )
l Fisher and Rix together maybe a second round pick.
F Gehrig - Nothing , he will retire anyway so stop carrying on about getting rid of him. J
Kosi, - Second round pick. May need to throw in Gwilt or McQualter
Gwilt , McQualter only have much value if combined with another trade.
M Maguire - Subject to medical examination, but I suspect not tradeable for early round picks.

So you lose 15 players of the list, you gain ( at most ) 3 second round picks and 4 or 5 picks at 3rd round or worse. ( -8). We still have players on the list like Conners and Howard who may not do much.
So in three years time you have a very average team in its prime.
Ross Lyon does not strike me as someone who will try something this radical.
Can we please assume that this type of radical trading will not occur and return the thread to its original form.

[Look2Me4Guidance]

like i said if we dont get the picks we want then we delist them. Im not 100% sure but if we finish in 9th i think, then we get 10th, 27th, 43rd picks, thats already 2 top 30 picks.

Add to that trade from Kosi + McQualter = maybe another top 30 draft
Then maybe X Clarke + L Fisher = Maybe another top 30 draft

and theres others in that list that are still young that might get some interest. So there you have it. 4-5 top 30 drafts. We could end up with something like.
Picks 10, 20, 25, 27. 43

And I tell ya, after watching the under 18s today. I think we would want to be very active. Some of these kids look very good.

They always look good under that environment mate. It's quite a leap to the big stage.

[Squizzy1970]

Good to see this bloke coming back :

Attard back on track

IT hasn't been an easy road for young Saint Jayden Attard.
He was drafted then delisted by the Brisbane Lions after just five games over two seasons, rookie-listed by St Kilda, played 20 games last year, was expected to be upgraded to the senior list – then was forced to undergo a knee reconstruction after suffering the injury in round 21 last year.
Attard said he was down at the time, but support from the club and teammates helped him get through it.
"When it initially happened I was pretty devastated," he sold saints.com.au. "I thought I was going to be on the senior list this year, but it wasn't to be.
"I had heaps of the boys come and visit me when I had my operation, and had plenty of support from my family and friends.
"It was definitely a tough situation for me – I didn't know where I stood and what was going to happen, but as soon as the club said they were going to do everything they could to help me get back on my feet and give me another opportunity, I was rapt.
"They could have quite easily said; 'Sorry, you've done your knee and we need a fully-strong list', but the club believed in me which I really value."
The 22-year-old is hoping to play at least a couple of VFL games this year. His knee played up again last week, but again, support has been in abundance.
"I'm travelling really well, just chipping away at it. Last week it blew up after not handling some contested training too well, so I've had this week off while we get the fluid out of my knee.
"When it happened I was pretty down and frustrated, but I was told by the physios that it was a normal thing.
"Lenny Hayes found out about it, and he was saying to me that when he was trying to come back his knee was always blowing up, so it was more comforting to hear that it was a normal occurrence, and it wasn't a down thing, it was just a normal thing that I had to go through."
As is often the case with major injuries, life lessons resulted.
"I found that I needed to have something away from football, so I'm doing a personal training course," he said.
"I'm doing that today, and I'm almost finished, almost fully qualified. It's great, it just keeps me ticking over. I've also bought a bit of land, just to get the other side of my life going.
"It didn't make it seem so bad when I have a bit of balance in my life."

[SaintsSeptember]

Good to see this bloke coming back :

Attard back on track

IT hasn't been an easy road for young Saint Jayden Attard.
He was drafted then delisted by the Brisbane Lions after just five games over two seasons, rookie-listed by St Kilda, played 20 games last year, was expected to be upgraded to the senior list – then was forced to undergo a knee reconstruction after suffering the injury in round 21 last year.
Attard said he was down at the time, but support from the club and teammates helped him get through it.
"When it initially happened I was pretty devastated," he sold saints.com.au. "I thought I was going to be on the senior list this year, but it wasn't to be.
"I had heaps of the boys come and visit me when I had my operation, and had plenty of support from my family and friends.
"It was definitely a tough situation for me – I didn't know where I stood and what was going to happen, but as soon as the club said they were going to do everything they could to help me get back on my feet and give me another opportunity, I was rapt.
"They could have quite easily said; 'Sorry, you've done your knee and we need a fully-strong list', but the club believed in me which I really value."
The 22-year-old is hoping to play at least a couple of VFL games this year. His knee played up again last week, but again, support has been in abundance.
"I'm travelling really well, just chipping away at it. Last week it blew up after not handling some contested training too well, so I've had this week off while we get the fluid out of my knee.
"When it happened I was pretty down and frustrated, but I was told by the physios that it was a normal thing.
"Lenny Hayes found out about it, and he was saying to me that when he was trying to come back his knee was always blowing up, so it was more comforting to hear that it was a normal occurrence, and it wasn't a down thing, it was just a normal thing that I had to go through."
As is often the case with major injuries, life lessons resulted.
"I found that I needed to have something away from football, so I'm doing a personal training course," he said.
"I'm doing that today, and I'm almost finished, almost fully qualified. It's great, it just keeps me ticking over. I've also bought a bit of land, just to get the other side of my life going.
"It didn't make it seem so bad when I have a bit of balance in my life."

Good on him. Lucky for him he put in a solid performance last year. That should give the club confidence to stick with him.:)

[Look2Me4Guidance]

I love this bloke. Always had a crack. I can't wait to see him back in the red, white and black. He'd be handy this week!

[Persevering Saint]

Yep, he was great value. Looking at a midfield in the next few years of Hayes, Ball, Dal, Armo, Jones, Attard, with Eddy and McQ possibly helping out - that's not that bad.

[dg102]

Yeah I cant wait to see Attard play again. I hope all goes well for his recovery and he can play as well as he did last year. For a first year sainter he was very good, really pacey and great in and under skills.
He may not be back this year though.

[Mick_15]

from reports the next draft should be strong and deep.

I watched the VicMetro v WA 18's game and was impressed.
I also understand that yes they are playing a low standard and against other kids but still, they can only play against what there given.

Im assuming that we are going to finish anywhere from 7th to 10th roughly.
Getting a pick say around the 10/12 mark.(so not going to include watts/natanoui/rich here)

But from the metro v wa game. I would love to see Zaharakis(no idea on the spelling), Stanton in the red black and white. they show good pace and skills something we need badly!
Other that looked good: bleese, vickory, number1(cant remember his name).
All metro players we flogged them so i dont remember many of the wa players.

Was thinking maybe someone could start a thread on perspective draftees that might be a great fit at the saints next year?

[Sir Robert]

Reading a thread on the main board - supposedly old mate Matty Rendell thinks it is a very strong draft for KPP. I would have no problem if we took another good ruckman. The McEvoy / New bloke combo could be very handy in years to come. One could always rest forward with Kosi pinch hitting as well.

Also should be able to snare a good mid with our second pick. That would be nice :)

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Natanui (or Naitanui?), Watts and Hurley I think, just to mention a few who should go top 5 to top 10. So yeah, some quality KPP's there.

BTW, I've never seen any of these guys play, and never will. So Im just goin by what everyone else says. :p

[Look2Me4Guidance]

from reports the next draft should be strong and deep.

I watched the VicMetro v WA 18's game and was impressed.
I also understand that yes they are playing a low standard and against other kids but still, they can only play against what there given.

Im assuming that we are going to finish anywhere from 7th to 10th roughly.
Getting a pick say around the 10/12 mark.(so not going to include watts/natanoui/rich here)

But from the metro v wa game. I would love to see Zaharakis(no idea on the spelling), Stanton in the red black and white. they show good pace and skills something we need badly!
Other that looked good: bleese, vickory, number1(cant remember his name).
All metro players we flogged them so i dont remember many of the wa players.

Was thinking maybe someone could start a thread on perspective draftees that might be a great fit at the saints next year?

That was Mitchell Banner mate. He played a great game but looks to be an in and under player, which we already have enough of.

Sam Blease is my pick for us. Reminds me of a young Aussie Jones.

[ChrisFooty]

What did we give up last year for Shnider and Dempster? You talk in certanties but you dont know shit

Schneider before this year was considered a good player that demanded selection in the Swans best 22. Only 23 years old.

[ChrisFooty]

IM SAYING. We gave up pick 26 NOT 30+ for Shnider at age 23 and Dempster at age 24. For example Raph is 23 and L Fish is 24. Now Im not saying that they are gonna be traded and they might not be as good as Shnider but. Sydney got rid of em. Meaning they wernt required players and we picked em up for pick 26. SO DONT SAY THAT THOSE TYPE OF TRADES CANT HAPPEN YOUR WRONG. THEY DO HAPPEN. and they probably will happen at the end of the year.

There is so many things wrong with this post. If players like L.Fisher, Raph Clarke (with his epilespy and personal issues) and Fiora can not make the current St.kidla 22, why would clubs offer top 30 picks? It will not happen.

28 year olds like M.Gardiner, Steven Baker and Milne do not attract top 30 picks. It does not happen. In fact, this would be seen as a very foolish move.

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Funny that we all considered Dempster to be a player thrown in because Sydney needed to get rid of him, who would be on the fringe of our team and hardly be selected, not do much and be pretty crap overall. Whislt Schneider would be in our best 22, kick goals every week and be an option to run through the middle.

Very happy with the Demp.

[ChrisFooty]

Funny that we all considered Dempster to be a player thrown in because Sydney needed to get rid of him, who would be on the fringe of our team and hardly be selected, not do much and be pretty crap overall. Whislt Schneider would be in our best 22, kick goals every week and be an option to run through the middle.

Very happy with the Demp.

Everyone thought at the start of the year that Schneider would do Milne's forward pocket role better.

Milne > Schneider in 2008.

[Squizzy1970]

We might have to rush this bloke through (if only for the chant):

"OOH AAH, Blake McGrath. Perhaps that will be a catchcry for the St Kilda cheer squad in two or three years.

McGrath, 17, was one of three boys from north of the border who visited Saints headquarters in Moorabbin yesterday as the club's most recent signings from its New South Wales Scholarship program.

Also signed are Josh Duncan, who played for NSW/ACT in the recent under-18 national carnival and 15-year-olds Jackson Ferguson and Kane Murphy, who will compete for NSW/ACT in the national under-16 carnival later this month.

The 208cm McGrath, a former state and national junior basketball representative, had his first kick of an Aussie rules ball less than a year ago but already has his sights set on the AFL.

"One of my mates was playing footy for Pennant Hills and he just asked me if I wanted to come down for a kick around with him one day. I said I would," McGrath said.

"Then I was asked if I wanted to have a game, have a go. I thought I would just do it, have a bit of fun."

McGrath, Ferguson and Murphy are all carefully nurtured at Pennant Hills - the club that delivered Lenny Hayes to St Kilda - by the Saints' NSW recruiter Danny Ryan, who in turn recommended them to club recruiting guru John Beveridge."

[Mick_15]

That was Mitchell Banner mate. He played a great game but looks to be an in and under player, which we already have enough of.

Sam Blease is my pick for us. Reminds me of a young Aussie Jones.

I liked Blease's game as well, but gee he would have to fill out a fair bit, with that frame he would be killed!

Zacarakis for the saints would be a nice fit.

Sure we could do with another tall ruck type, but i think the number one priority should be pace.

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Is this the last draft which GC and WS wont be in on? Or will next years be normal as well?

If this is the last year, I think we need to take a good KPP backman with our first pick, and a decent ruckmen with our second. And mids with the rest.

[ChrisFooty]

Gwilt tonight - Very poor.

Can he cut it week in and week out at AFL level? Tonight's performance will not help.

[clobba]

Surely if Gwilt doesn't blow the next game or 2 open he is gone, just been disapointing this season. Few highlights and too many winces in his field play.

[Persevering Saint]

My wife went OFF at him when he over-committed in that tackle that led to Bett's banana-goal in the last quarter. She was like, "Gwilit, GWILT, what the HELL do you think you're doing?! Get up! GET UP! G E T U P!!!... damn..." (I was so proud...)

[bomba4eva]

Gwilt must go. An absolute dud. Atrocious footballer that shouldnt get a game for the rest of the year.

[panthers]

Gwilt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>daddys boy Watson

[ChrisFooty]

Gwilt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>daddys boy Watson

Not too sure about that. :(

[SaintsSeptember]

My wife went OFF at him when he over-committed in that tackle that led to Bett's banana-goal in the last quarter. She was like, "Gwilit, GWILT, what the HELL do you think you're doing?! Get up! GET UP! G E T U P!!!... damn..." (I was so proud...)

My wife was exactly the same except she is no lady and didn't use nice words like "Hell"

She also got stuck into him over the high tackles.:D

[SaintsSeptember]

It seems that Gwilt is just not reliable enough to do the Job.
Someone like Leigh Fisher, though no star player seems to be able to play a lot more consistantly and would probably make a better backup player than Gwilt.
While I do think he has some talents I am very surprised that RL would consider him a potential full back, as I think his talents lie elsewhere.
I would put him on the same list as R Clarke, Rix, Howard, and Fiora.

[CHBench]

Robert Harvey - Retire
Fraser Gehrig - Retire
Charlie Gardiner - 1 year/Delist
Xavier Clarke - 1 Year/Possible trade, could have some value
Leigh Fisher - Delist
Brad Howard - Delist
James Gwilt - Delist
Matthew Ferguson - Delisted/ Trade, team like Melbourne could be interested.


Anybody know anything about the draft this year, like players to watch for or any KP Backs, players likely to be around for our first pick?

Definatly like the look of Sam Blease, loved his work on Tuesday. Also Stephen Hill, Non Key position utility (wingman, flanker, onball) explosive speed, gut runner, great endurance, good leap and superb tackler. Said to go late second round.

Here's some videos from under 18 carnival about 20 odd players posted up. (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461353)

[Sir Robert]

I initially said a ruckman should be our first pick, but after seeing Carltons midfield dominance and how it nearly stole the game for them, I vote 1 for a good hard running mid, then a ruckman or true KPP (as opposed to a James Frawley type).

Not 100% sold on wirey quick blokes as some tend to end up being wasted picks and soft - ie Fiora and Howard (too harsh???).

[SaintsSeptember]

I initially said a ruckman should be our first pick, but after seeing Carltons midfield dominance and how it nearly stole the game for them, I vote 1 for a good hard running mid, then a ruckman or true KPP (as opposed to a James Frawley type).

Not 100% sold on wirey quick blokes as some tend to end up being wasted picks and soft - ie Fiora and Howard (too harsh???).

I disagree, I think with Eddy, Armitage,and Miles we will not do to bad with midfielders in the near future. Meanwhile Max will need to be replaced, and it is not yet clear that Allen will be a suitable full forward.

[Squizzy1970]

Not 100% sold on wirey quick blokes as some tend to end up being wasted picks and soft - ie Fiora and Howard (too harsh???).

If you looking at the smaller guys it is skill and tackling as well as speed. They went for Howard based on athletic ability thinking they could teach him footy. Maybe they will, but it will take time (has he got long enough?). I note he did not play with Casey, so the club did not have him in the top 12 available Saints players (that did not play against Carlton). Miles was unlucky, as based on form he is in the top 12 (but is a rookie). Spoke to him briefly - he said he was "sore" - I'm sure he's disappointed he didn't play. Good to see a bunch of guys there in support. Steven was also unlucky, noting he is highly rated by the club.

[Sir Robert]

I disagree, I think with Eddy, Armitage,and Miles we will not do to bad with midfielders in the near future. Meanwhile Max will need to be replaced, and it is not yet clear that Allen will be a suitable full forward.

I think 1st class midfielders are game breakers tho. Armitage and Eddy I think both can be 1st class (altho there are no guarantees Armitage won't be at the GC in 2010), but if you look at Carlscum, Doggies and Geelong, you need many 1st class mids. Geelong don't even have a key position forward worth p!$$ing on yet they are the team to beat because they have such talent in the middle.

Agree tho that we have no solution for Maxy yet... I still hope Gilbert can be that guy - but he is also another GC product.

BTW - I hope to God the Armitgae call is incorrect!

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

I think 1st class midfielders are game breakers tho. Armitage and Eddy I think both can be 1st class (altho there are no guarantees Armitage won't be at the GC in 2010), but if you look at Carlscum, Doggies and Geelong, you need many 1st class mids. Geelong don't even have a key position forward worth p!$$ing on yet they are the team to beat because they have such talent in the middle.

Agree tho that we have no solution for Maxy yet... I still hope Gilbert can be that guy - but he is also another GC product.

BTW - I hope to God the Armitgae call is incorrect!

Better be. :mad:

I dont like the looks of it so far, he's getting hardly any game time...I hope it's due to being unfit rather than Lyon not liking him. I heard he had attitude issues last year and thats why he didnt play much, but he may have just been unfit...

Still managed to run nearly 9ks a couple weeks ago in 51 minutes (47% TOG)

Sadly I can easily seem him being poached up there if he continues to get less TOG, let's just hope by then he's well and truly a Saint, and for life.:thumbsu:

I heard someone say Gram to the midfield permanently, and Miles to replace Gram's place in the backline. I like that idea.

[SaintsSeptember]

Better be. :mad:

I dont like the looks of it so far, he's getting hardly any game time...I hope it's due to being unfit rather than Lyon not liking him. I heard he had attitude issues last year and thats why he didnt play much, but he may have just been unfit...

Still managed to run nearly 9ks a couple weeks ago in 51 minutes (47% TOG)

Sadly I can easily seem him being poached up there if he continues to get less TOG, let's just hope by then he's well and truly a Saint, and for life.:thumbsu:

I heard someone say Gram to the midfield permanently, and Miles to replace Gram's place in the backline. I like that idea.

Still early days for the Kid and I wouldn't read to much into it at this stage.
I would expect a bigger role for him next year ( especially if Harvey's spot is up for grabs ). We may find that next year McQualter, Armitage, and Eddy become mainstays in our midfield.
I am not sure if we shoud keep X on the list. He is a great player but what is the most number of games in a row he has managed to string together over the last few seasons? Is it worth having him on the list if we only get half the games out of him each year?

I am starting to appreciate the stability of our current list.

[Persevering Saint]

Xavier and Raphael are not going anywhere. They've had physical injuries in previous years, and this is compounded now by the emotional injuries of their father's serious illness and Raph's recent discovery that he has epilepsy (which is going to mess with his brother emotionally too, I would naturally expect). Lyon has made it abundantly clear that he greatly admires these two, especially with all the adversity that they have faced, and sees them as worth it all in the long term.

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

X is worth keeping, what game was it where he dominated and kicked 3 goals? If he can stay on the field for more than 2 weeks at a time he should become a very good player for us...I think he's gonna find it hard to get back into the best 22 though, and I'd rather Jones, Eddy and Armo get games than him.

[ChrisFooty]

Brad Howard? Should he be kept next year? If kept, how many senior games should he aim for in 2009?

[Kildonan]

This thread has lost a lot of it's voice recently.

With the beginnings of a Saints resurgence in the making, people are starting to see some positives in a lot of the players we have.

Every team has fringe players.

Every year every team has to turn over at least three players (via the National Draft), beyond that most changes are through promotion, delisting and drafting of rookies.

I forsee most of our changes from these sources and hope that we can continue to address the needs of our club (this year in particular) through youth as the next few years' drafts will be diluted somewhat with the inclusion of the Gold Coast team and possibly even a Western Sydney team. There has even been talk of a Tasmanian team.

[SaintsSeptember]

Xavier and Raphael are not going anywhere. They've had physical injuries in previous years, and this is compounded now by the emotional injuries of their father's serious illness and Raph's recent discovery that he has epilepsy (which is going to mess with his brother emotionally too, I would naturally expect). Lyon has made it abundantly clear that he greatly admires these two, especially with all the adversity that they have faced, and sees them as worth it all in the long term.

OK so we should keep the Clarke brothers.
So should we keep Rix because even though he is not able to be competative he is a really good bloke and he tries hard?
And we should keep Fiora because he will get upset if he is de-listed.
And we should keep Ferguson because he was a third round pick 4 years ago and he should start playing well soon.
And we should keep Gwilt because his mum is really proud of him playing AFL football.

We should de-list our top players because they will be able to get jobs at other teams and that way no one will get hurt.:rolleyes:

I think you would find that Ross Lyon would have good things to say about everyone on the list, and there is nothing wrong with that.

The reality is at the end of the year some of the players will be let go and they will be the players least likely to get a game.
X Clarke is injury prone, he is great when in the side, but it can upset the whole dynamics of the team with a player going in and out every few weeks. I think he will be retained but I am also sure that the team selecters will take his history with injuries into account when they evaluate his performance.
R Clarke is also injury prone and probably not in the best 22. So we have a back up player who may not be available for selection.

In particular I feel sorry for Raph with his recent personal problems, during a year that must surely be make or break for him.
But his performance ( in between injuries) last year was also heavily critisized. Meanwhile we have Dempster playing well and Attard, Geary, Birss, and Baker all looking for a spot in the team, and others on the way.

[Persevering Saint]

OK so we should keep the Clarke brothers.
So should we keep Rix because even though he is not able to be competative he is a really good bloke and he tries hard?
And we should keep Fiora because he will get upset if he is de-listed.
And we should keep Ferguson because he was a third round pick 4 years ago and he should start playing well soon.
And we should keep Gwilt because his mum is really proud of him playing AFL football.

We should de-list our top players because they will be able to get jobs at other teams and that way no one will get hurt.:rolleyes:

I think you would find that Ross Lyon would have good things to say about everyone on the list, and there is nothing wrong with that.

The reality is at the end of the year some of the players will be let go and they will be the players least likely to get a game.
X Clarke is injury prone, he is great when in the side, but it can upset the whole dynamics of the team with a player going in and out every few weeks. I think he will be retained but I am also sure that the team selecters will take his history with injuries into account when they evaluate his performance.
R Clarke is also injury prone and probably not in the best 22. So we have a back up player who may not be available for selection.

In particular I feel sorry for Raph with his recent personal problems, during a year that must surely be make or break for him.
But his performance ( in between injuries) last year was also heavily critisized. Meanwhile we have Dempster playing well and Attard, Geary, Birss, and Baker all looking for a spot in the team, and others on the way.
I totally see your point here. I think that's a totally fair call, especially for Fiora and Gwilt. Rix I'm a little less sure of, given his form in the Sorps, but hey, I still recognise what you're saying.

I didn't say that Raph SHOULD be kept on, I said he WILL be. To be honest, I'm not really sure one way or the other whether he should. But I think Ross has made it adundantly clear that he's keeping him on - I think he treating what's happening with Raph this year (his father, the epilepsy) like an injury. To Lyon it's the mental/emotional equivalent of a troublesome hamstring, but it'll start to see itself right next year, if it's managed appropriately. Whether that's the right approach is certainly open to debate, and there's few better places to do it than here on this forum - the more posts the better, I say!

[SaintsSeptember]

You are probably right. A Persevering Saint should know because we have certainly persevered with Raphael.
With regards to some of the other players on the short list:
Fiora was never great but his form is way off this year, I wonder if something is wrong with him, or whether he already knows something about his future.
Same with Leigh Fisher.

[Look2Me4Guidance]

You are probably right. A Persevering Saint should know because we have certainly persevered with Raphael.
With regards to some of the other players on the short list:
Fiora was never great but his form is way off this year, I wonder if something is wrong with him, or whether he already knows something about his future.
Same with Leigh Fisher.

I reckon Friday night's game spoke volumes of where we are heading. Earlier in the year Leigh Fisher would have played a negating role on Judd. However Ross decides to have Gram go head to head with him. This is showing that we are adopting a more attacking mindset.

[Squizzy1970]

Been saying for a while we need to be unpredictable, and certain players on the ground need to have the authority to see opportunities and make a move. Goddard, Gram, Sam F into the midfield are all a good start.

[ChrisFooty]

Fiora was never great but his form is way off this year, I wonder if something is wrong with him, or whether he already knows something about his future.
Same with Leigh Fisher.

Correct. Fiora form has been poor this year. Contracted until 2009, he should have less worries compared to Gwilt, Ferg, Leigh Fisher, who are all out of contract at the end of the year. At least he will get a good pay check if delisted, as we would have to pay his contract for 2009 (No idea how much he earns)

Leigh Fisher has always been a man who never been a high possession winner. How many times has got more than 12-15 possession in a match? Not Many. It happens far too often. Dempster offers a defence option, as well as having the ability to win some footy (well more effective than L.Fisher)

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

What the hell happened to Fiora? He was a revelation last year and I really liked him as a player...now he's just become useless?

[dg102]

I totally agree with SS's comment's on the Clarkes and others like that. We bloody carry these mediorocre player's far too long. Thats why were just a mediorocre football team. This reflects very badly on our coaching staff in previous years. I like how you look back and you try and remember the games that x played well in. It just shows how many there were and the coaching staff, instead of looking at the best interest for the future of the club, they try and hold on to these shit players thinking there gona get better. What the F@K does St Kilda FC owe x or Raf. What does the club owe Gwilt or Fiora or Rix or any of the others that have been tried and tried and tried again and still dont get better. And they take up valuable game time from kids. We have got to make some serious changes at the end of the year. WAY TOO MANY DUDS!