View Full Version : St Kilda's ruck structure.
ChrisFooty
12 Jul 2008, 00:46
Steven King starting to play some very good football for us. Last three weeks have been very good. His effort against Fermantle was mammoth (had to do it by himself) Followed up against good games against kangaroos and Carlton tonight (dominated the hit outs) decent kick for a big ruckman.
Kosi was good with around the ground work while rucking.
Is there room for M.Gardiner? While these two are fit, would St.kilda be more flexible with these two ruckman only? Gardiner would therefore be only in the side if one of King or Kosi got injured?
Discuss.
Persevering Saint
12 Jul 2008, 02:19
I think King has been extraordinary, and we have been REALLY pushing our luck with him. If we keep playing him like we are, he's bound to hurt himself (probably a hammy). Kosi did a pretty solid job tonight in the ruck, but we all know we want him at Full-Forward.
Mike Gardiner needs to come back in, or McEvoy needs to get more game time. This is simply unsustainable, imo.
Five years ago, I thought King was a bloke capable of winning a GF for his team, then injury intervened, but he did it anyway. Nothing I've seen since has altered that opinion.
He's a ruckman like Farmer and Nicholls. I can give no higher praise. It was a delight to watch a tradesman at work.
We look a hell of alot better if we can get a number of breaks out of the center to a leading forward through good ruckwork. That was the first time in years, King does look the goods
bubblegoose
12 Jul 2008, 09:32
I think King has been extraordinary, and we have been REALLY pushing our luck with him. If we keep playing him like we are, he's bound to hurt himself (probably a hammy). Kosi did a pretty solid job tonight in the ruck, but we all know we want him at Full-Forward.
Mike Gardiner needs to come back in, or McEvoy needs to get more game time. This is simply unsustainable, imo.
I agree PS. Makes my hangover worse to imagine if we'd always had him.
I believe that Gardiner was left out to play a more mobile player. We were always going to smash them in the Ruck with King and Kosi and with Blake to pinch hit if required. Kosi's last 5 quarters have been fantastic we need him to play Forward rather than a Ruckman. You cant just have Rooy up there by himself. Gardiner will be back next week at the expense of Allen i'd assume.
The Blues rucks are dismal...so we never needed both King and Gardi....and Kosi who in terms of ruckwork is not good is still way better than anything that the Blues have.
Kosi's around ground work is very good though.
This way too Gardi gets a week at Casey to re-build fitness.
I would be surprsied at this stage if Gardi does not come in for the Hawks match...say in place of Allen
Persevering Saint
12 Jul 2008, 16:40
The Blues rucks are dismal...so we never needed both King and Gardi....and Kosi who in terms of ruckwork is not good is still way better than anything that the Blues have.
Kosi's around ground work is very good though.
This way too Gardi gets a week at Casey to re-build fitness.
I would be surprsied at this stage if Gardi does not come in for the Hawks match...say in place of Allen
Yep, that's a one good thing that came out of Allen's game - it was so ineffectual, it shows that we could win without that other tall forward. If Gardy comes in, and Kosi sits back quietly within the goal square (with Gardy in the 50m too when King's rucking, come to think of it...), then not having Allen isn't really going to be a worry.
Squizzy1970
12 Jul 2008, 21:35
Whilst Kosi was good around the ground and up forward, his actual ruck work was very very concerning. I had flashbacks to Cain Ackland.
wheels4
12 Jul 2008, 22:23
Whilst Kosi was good around the ground and up forward, his actual ruck work was very very concerning. I had flashbacks to Cain Ackland.
did capuano pop in there aswell haha
gardiner will come back in for allen
and hopefully schneids, x man and bakes will
Look2Me4Guidance
13 Jul 2008, 15:58
Whilst Kosi was good around the ground and up forward, his actual ruck work was very very concerning. I had flashbacks to Cain Ackland.
It's not his ruck work that makes him effective in the middle, it's his ability as a follower. This is what got him into the game against the Roos. He chips in across half back and reads the play very well. If it's going to get him up and going which it has the last 2 weeks, I have no problem with it.
TassieSaint
13 Jul 2008, 18:06
Hawthorn's ruck combo is much improved, and a lot better than Carlton's. On top of that their rucks generally split their time 50/50 in the middle which gives them an endurance advantage. so we definitely need Michael Gardiner in this week.
On King, his tap work is the best I've seen at St Kilda for quite some time. It's not just recently either, he was tearing David Hille a new one earlier in the year before he did his hammy. A lot of people have had a go at us for recycling players, but Steven King for pick 90 is a bargain every day of the week.
ChrisFooty
13 Jul 2008, 22:37
Can't knock recruiting King. St.kilda needed recycled players to fill it's ruck stocks. Recruiting King and Gardiner gives us time to develop McEvoy without having to use Rix and Blake in the ruck in the meantime. We have a couple of years to play with now.
AFLOnline
14 Jul 2008, 15:41
King has some very, very decisive taps on him. He works extraordinarily in the middle with Hayes and Ball, and is one of the reasons why they have had some much clearance work this season.
Super_Dal
14 Jul 2008, 16:40
Leave Kosi in the ruck... gets him up and about and moving. When he sits at full forward he struggles to get into the game and doesnt move around as much as required.
When in the ruck he pushes forward and is very damaging. I reckon most of his contested marks in the forward line against carlton were whilst he was playing as a ruckmen...
The carlton rucks were very week. So you cannot judge much on that.
IMO we want King and Gardiner as they both can tap to advantage...Kosi has yet to demonstrate this.
But yes do allow Kosi to alos roam around the ground at times asa follower.
I would base Kosi at FF though with Roo at FF. Both should have the 007 licence to roam though.
BigManFromMiniTown
15 Jul 2008, 14:22
Kingy has been awesome in the ruck and kosi has be good as well. But for Kosi his ability to float around the ground against carlton has brilliant! He did a great job being last line of defence popping up for a few big marks to stop the ball getting into the carlton forwards. Something that the saints have lacked and needed. The combo of King and Kosi worked really well, and against the hawks with campbell and taylor if it can work again to get the ball out and also stop the ball coming into their forwards we might have a good change. Not sure where gardiner will fit in if kosi and kingy still preform really well.
HoldenMCaulfield
16 Jul 2008, 13:03
Both should have the 007 licence to roam though.
I agree - Riewoldt has shown over the last weeks that he is a genuine superstar of the AFL after all and watching Koschitzke play basically everywhere on Friday was just phantastic.
We have two very good ruckmen who should still have at least two, maybe three years left in them while McEvoy is given time to develop into hopefully the next Dean Cox.
Based on the current form of our twin towers and Milne being as dangerous as he is at the moment, there may even be room for Gehrig. I admit that Allen does try and he will be an important part of the team in the future, but let's be honest, he was basically a no show on Friday (following a very average game against North) - and I admit that I would just love to see Big Fraser a few more times !
SaintsSeptember
16 Jul 2008, 13:11
I agree - Riewoldt has shown over the last weeks that he is a genuine superstar of the AFL after all and watching Koschitzke play basically everywhere on Friday was just phantastic.
We have two very good ruckmen who should still have at least two, maybe three years left in them while McEvoy is given time to develop into hopefully the next Dean Cox.
Based on the current form of our twin towers and Milne being as dangerous as he is at the moment, there may even be room for Gehrig. I admit that Allen does try and he will be an important part of the team in the future, but let's be honest, he was basically a no show on Friday (following a very average game against North) - and I admit that I would just love to see Big Fraser a few more times !
Its very hard to judge. Allen didn't do much, but I am not sure what the opposition had to do to prevent him from having an effect. If they had a good defender on him fair enough, but if he was mopped up by some rookie, not so good.
Even when Fraser was not going well he tended to attract some pretty good defence.
Squizzy1970
16 Jul 2008, 13:15
I thought Allen was OK against North, but yeah had a shocker against Carlton.
We do need to find that third option as Chucky, Fergie, Blake and Allen have all had their moments in this role but not been consistent enough.
Sam F is still the one for me, but X is probably (realistically) the one we need in the team. Seems like he is still a week or two away, and would start with Casey anyway.
tim_saints
17 Jul 2008, 13:37
I think King definetly is our number 1 ruckman and is starting to play some really good footy i think we really need the opion of Kozi down forward becasue he takes such a great over head mark and has a good kick for goal. We either need Michael Gardnier back in the side or give Ben Mcevoy more game time in the senior side.
_Interpol_
17 Jul 2008, 19:57
Steven King starting to play some very good football for us. Last three weeks have been very good. His effort against Fermantle was mammoth (had to do it by himself) Followed up against good games against kangaroos and Carlton tonight (dominated the hit outs) decent kick for a big ruckman.
Kosi was good with around the ground work while rucking.
Is there room for M.Gardiner? While these two are fit, would St.kilda be more flexible with these two ruckman only? Gardiner would therefore be only in the side if one of King or Kosi got injured?
Discuss.
They've effed it royally now...
Ugh... Every time I think they get it right, they stuff it up
Armitage2Riewoldt
17 Jul 2008, 20:42
They must be playing it extremely safe with MG. Surprised not to see him named, but still, I'd rather him miss another week then set himself back a couple months with an injury cos he came back too early.
ChrisFooty
18 Jul 2008, 00:29
Could argue maybe St.kilda would be too tall playing all three of King, Kosi, Gardiner.
Fiora and Schendier can offer a more mobile option. Thats if they play a decent game of course.
Armitage2Riewoldt
18 Jul 2008, 00:41
At least it looks like we'll be enforcing a running game plan eh?
Lets prove Sammy Newman wrong for once, he's usually pretty good with his tipping.
SaintsSeptember
18 Jul 2008, 10:21
Maybe King was a bit lucky to be in the team when it started to look good, because I think RL is avoiding too many changes week to week. I rate King / Gardner fairly level as inclusions, both great to have in the team, King is maybe a bit better at the ruckwork, Gardner a bit better at marking and kicking. Kosi in the ruck is not great in itself, but having him follow the ball gives us an extremely good footballer close to the action all the time.
The Punter
18 Jul 2008, 11:53
Kosi plays much better when not anchored at Full Forward.
Squizzy is right - the real spot we need to fill is third option after Riewoldt & Koschitzke.
It will be interesting to see who plays FF tomorrow night when Kosi is in the ruck.
My bet is that it will be Sam Gilbert. I also wouldn't be surprised with Jason Blake.
We really need a Matthew Ferguson to plug the gap until Allen gets going. Three games for no goals ain't a great output.
Sir Robert
18 Jul 2008, 12:34
Kosi plays much better when not anchored at Full Forward.
Squizzy is right - the real spot we need to fill is third option after Riewoldt & Koschitzke.
It will be interesting to see who plays FF tomorrow night when Kosi is in the ruck.
My bet is that it will be Sam Gilbert. I also wouldn't be surprised with Jason Blake.
We really need a Matthew Ferguson to plug the gap until Allen gets going. Three games for no goals ain't a great output.
Am really thinking McEvoy could be that guy. Supposedly a decent shot at goal. RL hinted at him playing more games this year, so I am eagerly awaiting it :)
Squizzy1970
18 Jul 2008, 13:48
Maybe, but games out on the windswept VFL paddocks ain't helping!
It's getting harder to pick ruckmen for the side.
King
Koschitzke
Gardiner
Blake
McEvoy
Rix
All fit. I don't think Koschitzke will do much in the way of hitout work for the rest of the season though. Whether this means Blake pinch hits to relieve King (depends if he's needed at CHB), or Gardiner is brought into the side, remains to be seen.
ChrisFooty
20 Jul 2008, 06:50
St.kilda look more mobile when they only have one of Gardiner and King. Thoughts?
Armitage2Riewoldt
20 Jul 2008, 16:37
I think it depends who we're playing. I thought we needed MG last night, I was wrong...
But I think we should play him this week, Cox and Seaby might be too much for King and Kosi?
goodie23
20 Jul 2008, 17:42
I think it depends who we're playing. I thought we needed MG last night, I was wrong...
But I think we should play him this week, Cox and Seaby might be too much for King and Kosi?
I'd like to see Gardiner in this week, keep Kosi up forward predominately, maybe let him into the ruck against Seaby, King and Gardiner wearing down Cox
Squizzy1970
20 Jul 2008, 18:13
Agree.
King needs support, otherwise he'll get the soft tissue stuff again.
Kosi is fine around the ground but we saw how important it is to win the centre clearances - where we were smashed early.
We also lost our forward structure again when Kosi went into the ruck. Milne was the target on one occasion against three opponents at the top of the square - less than ideal.
We should be mindful that Gardiner tends to hit to advantage with his ruckwork and can get it around the ground. How much game time did he get at Casey?
Persevering Saint
23 Jul 2008, 13:44
With Kosi out this week, this becomes the million dollar issue.
Three players arenow up for selection in the face of Kosi's suspension: Allen, McEvoy, M Gardiner. With each of them, their selection would signal something about Ross Lyon's attitude to the game:
- Allen: That Blake is perfectly capable of doing another super job like last week, and all we really need from Kosi's position is a forward. It further suggests that Lyon does not rate this as a crunch game, because he's willing to bring in a youthie who has not scored a goal in several outings for the seniors so far this season. Hence, picking Allen would be a "give him a go to help learn his craft against duds" thing. Finally, a specialist forward - even a tall one - might be attractive to Lyon, since one of our key forwards (Milney) has a terrible record at Subi.
- McEvoy: by far the most unlikely of the 3, mainly because of inexperience, and the likelihood that he would get torn up by Cox. Having said that, Lyon might think that this could be good for the kid - to see another great ruck doing his thing. He also can play as a forward, so Lyon might think McEvoy is the closest thing to being able to have Kosi in the side anyway.
- M Gardiner: Imo, BY FAR the most likely choice. Ross is not going to underestimate this game. It's not going to be easy. Best bring in the professional. Add to that the whole thing of Gardiner playing on a familiar ground, with the power of history/vengeance on his mind. Gardiner's selection says, "This is no easy one - we're taking this VERY seriously."
Squizzy1970
23 Jul 2008, 13:52
Listening to an interview done with Gardi, it would appear that the club has set him for this game. The last two games with Casey (with managed game time) have been the preparation. Looks a dead cert for mine.
DirtyHarry
23 Jul 2008, 13:55
With Kosi out this week, this becomes the million dollar issue.
Three players arenow up for selection in the face of Kosi's suspension: Allen, McEvoy, M Gardiner. With each of them, their selection would signal something about Ross Lyon's attitude to the game:
- Allen: That Blake is perfectly capable of doing another super job like last week, and all we really need from Kosi's position is a forward. It further suggests that Lyon does not rate this as a crunch game, because he's willing to bring in a youthie who has not scored a goal in several outings for the seniors so far this season. Hence, picking Allen would be a "give him a go to help learn his craft against duds" thing. Finally, a specialist forward - even a tall one - might be attractive to Lyon, since one of our key forwards (Milney) has a terrible record at Subi.
- McEvoy: by far the most unlikely of the 3, mainly because of inexperience, and the likelihood that he would get torn up by Cox. Having said that, Lyon might think that this could be good for the kid - to see another great ruck doing his thing. He also can play as a forward, so Lyon might think McEvoy is the closest thing to being able to have Kosi in the side anyway.
- M Gardiner: Imo, BY FAR the most likely choice. Ross is not going to underestimate this game. It's not going to be easy. Best bring in the professional. Add to that the whole thing of Gardiner playing on a familiar ground, with the power of history/vengeance on his mind. Gardiner's selection says, "This is no easy one - we're taking this VERY seriously."
I'd go with Allen.
King is more than capable to take Cox at centre bounces and shortly after, but Cox's run around the ground would blow him up. This is what Blake is in the side for. Tag him around the ground and compete at around the ground bounces. It's too much of an ask for Blake to run around on Cox, then present up forward as a target. Rotate King/Blake off the bench specifically to negate Cox and that will hopefully work.
Kosi for Allen is a straight switch. This puts an extra game into a young player, giving him invaluable experience for the future. All he has to do is lead and present an option... something that Kosi has not always produced this year. Gardiner is now a backup ruck for King this season, not a forward option as far as I'm concerned.
Play the kids... it can only benefit us in the long run.
SaintsSeptember
23 Jul 2008, 14:16
I'd go with Allen.
King is more than capable to take Cox at centre bounces and shortly after, but Cox's run around the ground would blow him up. This is what Blake is in the side for. Tag him around the ground and compete at around the ground bounces. It's too much of an ask for Blake to run around on Cox, then present up forward as a target. Rotate King/Blake off the bench specifically to negate Cox and that will hopefully work.
Kosi for Allen is a straight switch. This puts an extra game into a young player, giving him invaluable experience for the future. All he has to do is lead and present an option... something that Kosi has not always produced this year. Gardiner is now a backup ruck for King this season, not a forward option as far as I'm concerned.
Play the kids... it can only benefit us in the long run.
If Allen is ineffective (as he has been in some games) and Milne plays badly interstate ( as has been the case in the past) we could have serious trouble scoring. For my mind we really should put Goddard in that spot.
Kildonan
23 Jul 2008, 14:19
I'd go with Michael Gardiner and swap him and Steven King in the ruck against Dean Cox. I'd also play Jason Blake as a tagger on Cox to try and reduce his effectiveness. Quinten Lynch is the wild card in this equation - we need to consider what role he will play in this match.
yeh id have to say out of the options available id go for gardiner. i know we lose a forward option but i think we could choose to operate different more open forward line with just riewoldt as the focus and if need be throw gardiner down there because lynch is currently playing a role similar to cox atm as well roaming so although blake would be handy tagging them we basically just need to win the hitouts. We saw the games where king has dominated we have won and ive always gone on the theory if we win the ruck we will win because we have a more then capable midfield and if they get first use we can attack and win easily. Cox has been racking up the possies but hasnt been helping because some of their midfielders are so young and inxeperienced hes just making up for them.
So the question will be raised whether you go forward or bring in a ruckman but if we went king n blake and king went down wed be buggerted with blake against lynch and cox and the only other huge tall left would be riewoldt to ruck so def better to have that insurance playing in michael gardiner and pleaseeee dont play rix over him RL!
A fit and in form Gardiner would bea very handy player.
He was just really starting to show some great form when he got injured again.
Still having both King and gardiner means that at least one should be there each week.
Kosi and Blake are ok to take spells in the ruck but you would not want either to be your number one ruckmen wekk in, week out.
wheels4
23 Jul 2008, 20:34
Listening to an interview done with Gardi, it would appear that the club has set him for this game. The last two games with Casey (with managed game time) have been the preparation. Looks a dead cert for mine.
Squizz, did u hear this interview on the radio or on a website
if on website could u possibly give me the site?
Squizzy1970
24 Jul 2008, 10:31
http://bigpondvideo.com/StKildaTV/66742
Squizzy1970
25 Jul 2008, 14:34
Listening to an interview done with Gardi, it would appear that the club has set him for this game. The last two games with Casey (with managed game time) have been the preparation. Looks a dead cert for mine.
Swwissshhhhhh!!! All net. ;)
ChrisFooty
27 Jul 2008, 00:21
Gardiner will be dropped after his performance against West Coast. St.kilda look better with King rucking, with Kosi and Blake as a back up. Football today is very fast. Having two non mobile ruckman may be a disadvantage. Having both in their prime in the same team would be very dangarous. However, they are not.
goodie23
27 Jul 2008, 02:05
Gardiner will be dropped after his performance against West Coast. St.kilda look better with King rucking, with Kosi and Blake as a back up. Football today is very fast. Having two non mobile ruckman may be a disadvantage. Having both in their prime in the same team would be very dangarous. However, they are not.
Agreed, Gardiner looked very ordinary out there today. We were well beaten in the ruck, admittedly Cox's form lately has been ridiculous, but around the ground Gardiner was pretty much a liability. Slow, didn't chase and couldn't hold a mark.
Did he look as flat when he played for Casey, or did he just die out there today?
ChrisFooty
27 Jul 2008, 17:33
Gardiner could not be 100% fit. Did not move very much. - 19 in the dream team scores. Ouch.
Squizzy1970
28 Jul 2008, 11:59
Did he look as flat when he played for Casey, or did he just die out there today?
Looked OK at Casey, albeit still a little hampered in the legs.
Probably not a great idea to take him over to the big ground, as Cox burned him up (and himself ending up with bad cramp).
Having said this, I think the club may well play him again this week (thankfully back at the Dome).