View Full Version : Collingwood vs Adelaide!
PrideofSA
15 Sep 2002, 14:17
After both teams have travelled interstate in their last matches and come away with memorable victories! So could be a very big and interesting match next Saturday at the MCG!
The big Questions!
Was Collingwood's victory just a fluke and did Port actually lose that match or are the Pies the real deal?
Will Adelaide's fantastic victory over the Demons spark their confidence and send them on their way to bigger and better things or have the played their GF already?
I have a good feeling about this one.
Crows must be tired, that last quarter they played was awesome, but it must of taken its toll a little.
The pies have had a week off, and that would help players like Rocca and Tarrant would would both be fired up for this game.
And of course Buckley coming back in is a huge bonus.
I think it will be a close game, but i would expect the pies to get up.
molos_girl_14
15 Sep 2002, 15:25
even thought im a melbourne supporter and have a very strong disliking towards collingwood i hope u thrash adelaide next week. u are victorias only hope for the grand final and lets be serious here, how many victorians are gonna watch the GF if it is between two interstate teams? i certainly wont. So c'mon pies kill those crows coz they deserve it.
oh and by the way PrideofSA dont u have anything better to do with ur time than to annoy the oppositions supporters,GET A LIFE!!!
Hey Molos girl. Pride of SA wasn't annoying us, just....well i dont know what exactly what he was doing but it wasnt annoying.
King Crow
15 Sep 2002, 18:25
Originally posted by jabso
Hey Molos girl. Pride of SA wasn't annoying us, just....well i dont know what exactly what he was doing but it wasnt annoying.
Its a kind of tradition that has developed that u post a game thread in the other teams board..to discuss the game.
And Ron...we arent worried..the players have 7 days to recover from last nights game :cool:
I wanna win. But I gotta bad feeling about this game.:(
Please feel free to convince me otherwise.
molos_girl_14
15 Sep 2002, 20:45
hey jabso i wasnt just saying that he was annoying u in particular i was just saying that he was annoying in general for posting on the upcoming oppositions board saying that they are gonna win against u this weekend, because he has been posting on the melbourne board about the loss last night and its just pathetic he obviously thinks that the crows are gonna beat the pies,WHATEVER!!! im gonna take much pleasure wathing the game and seeing the pies s.h.i.t all over the crows
Hurricane75
15 Sep 2002, 21:05
Originally posted by Nic
I wanna win. But I gotta bad feeling about this game.:(
Please feel free to convince me otherwise.
Well they were very lucky to beat Melbourne and were already showing that they were running out of legs.
Whats another interstate match gonna do to them especially playing a fresh legged Collingwood team?
Then there's Macleod, he's injured (I think).
My only concern is that they have a history of winning these ones and we haven't been great on the MCG this year.
Having said that, I was barracking for them cuz I really think the travel factor will play a big part this week.
Hopefully our boys are still hungry to win, even though we have done well to get where we are.
Originally posted by Hurricane75
Then there's Macleod, he's injured (I think).
He had a noticeable limp when they showed the Crows leaving for Adelaide at the airport. :)
I don't think it really matters - we have the insumountable LICA!
PrideofSA
16 Sep 2002, 08:35
Originally posted by Hoggy
He had a noticeable limp when they showed the Crows leaving for Adelaide at the airport. :)
I don't think it really matters - we have the insumountable LICA!
Yeah, hopefully he will be alright though, would give us a little bit of an extra chance if he does play, but we have enough quality players to cover hime anyway!
Andrew McLeod had X-Rays This Morning and they have revealed that he has three cracked bones in his foot!!!!!
Been told its a 10 day injury and may not come up for the GF if the Crows get through!!!!!!!
Will not play Saturday
Originally posted by jabso
Hey Molos girl. Pride of SA wasn't annoying us, just....well i dont know what exactly what he was doing but it wasnt annoying.
Apparantly Melbourne supporters are precious little things that don't like opposition supporters on their boards, even if to discuss an upcoming match......
Originally posted by Davo75
Andrew McLeod had X-Rays This Morning and they have revealed that he has three cracked bones in his foot!!!!!
Been told its a 10 day injury and may not come up for the GF if the Crows get through!!!!!!!
Will not play Saturday
If he plays he plays - nothing the Pies can do about it so their planning will be about the things they can control.
Malthouse will not worry too much, unlike Williams two weeks ago who spent an inordinate amount of time takling about Nathan Buckley and whether he would play against the Power.
Originally posted by Hurricane75
Well they were very lucky to beat Melbourne and were already showing that they were running out of legs.
Whats another interstate match gonna do to them especially playing a fresh legged Collingwood team?
Then there's Macleod, he's injured (I think).
My only concern is that they have a history of winning these ones and we haven't been great on the MCG this year.
Having said that, I was barracking for them cuz I really think the travel factor will play a big part this week.
Hopefully our boys are still hungry to win, even though we have done well to get where we are.
Lucky!! WTF!
Running outta legs!! Who ran over who mate? Did you actually watch the same game as me?
Your lot will go in favourites for a number of reasons, but the fact that we were"lucky" and were "running out of legs" won't be on the list IMO.
Originally posted by molos_girl_14
even thought im a melbourne supporter and have a very strong disliking towards collingwood i hope u thrash adelaide next week. u are victorias only hope for the grand final and lets be serious here, how many victorians are gonna watch the GF if it is between two interstate teams? i certainly wont. So c'mon pies kill those crows coz they deserve it.
oh and by the way PrideofSA dont u have anything better to do with ur time than to annoy the oppositions supporters,GET A LIFE!!!
Surely virtually everyone would watch a grand final between two "interstate" teams. It is a national competition and the two teams would effectively be the best two in the nation that year, so why wouldn't you watch it? Really, was the VFL that much better than the AFL?
Cyclops
16 Sep 2002, 12:52
This game should be a pearler. The game really could go either way.
Adelaide have such great strengths. Their core midfielders are unsurpassed in the land. Only Brisbane's superb onballers match the power and skill of McLeod, Goodwin, and Ricciutto.
Add to this their experince and self belief. This is familiar territory for the Crows. They know what it takes and no odds daunt them.
The negatives for the Crows also stack up. Sustained travel, injuries and fierces contests have challenged their endurance.
Ayres is no magician like Blight. The Crows have difficulty stringing two good quarters together (although when they do its blindingly good). This issue has to be the coaches problem.
Team structure is another question mark. The Crows are seen as being short at both ends. They can kick scores, but they need to, because a tall opponent will get plenty of shots. I think the Crows win because they have good players, rather than a good system.
The Pies are almost the complete opposite. Fantastically coached, they produce good sustained performances with a variety of contributors. Young blokes are quickly moulded into team players doing their bit. 18-19 year olds slot into the system without a hiccup and play like men. The defence is no-name but effective, the forwards are all inconsistent, but coinsistently kick winning scores, and the ruck division is, well, stunning.
Our concentration is excellent, and the way the boys locked away games against Port, Brisbane and Adelaide show that they can absorb tremendous pressure despite their tender age.
The problem is our most experienced finals player is Glen Freeborn. The boys had a good taste of finals against Port and performed very well, but at some point the lack of finals experience may catch up with us.
The other problem is a paucity of stars. Bucks is a champion, but the rest of the team are either champions waiting to prove it, or good ordinary players playing really well (you know what I mean, at St Kilda they'd be hacks). Maybe we'll see a couple prove themselves on Saturday.
We have the taggers to nullify the Crows runners, and the height in attack to kick a big score. Our elastic defence should contain Adelaide, and a variety of rucks to prevent them dominating the stop plays. I'll tip a Pies win, of course, but if McLeod plays well for even two quarters he could win this game by himself.
Originally posted by Nic
I wanna win. But I gotta bad feeling about this game.:(
Please feel free to convince me otherwise.
The pies will start favs & deservedly so,
They have had a weeks rest,
Will be playing in front of 80,000 rabid supporters,
Crows will be tired from all the traveling done in recent weeks,
Crows players will be sore from last sat game against the Dees,
Pies did carve up our midfield early on in year at footy park,
But for all that the Crows belief in themselves & never say die attitude will make for a great game,
My heart & gut feeling say Crows by 7 points,
Originally posted by noddy
My heart & gut feeling say Crows by 7 points,
My heart and gut is currently turning itself inside out.
Jars458
16 Sep 2002, 16:10
Originally posted by Davo75
Andrew McLeod had X-Rays This Morning and they have revealed that he has three cracked bones in his foot!!!!!
Been told its a 10 day injury and may not come up for the GF if the Crows get through!!!!!!!
Will not play Saturday
Obviously your sources are impeccable!!! :rolleyes:
McLeod a certain starter, say Crows
3:11:54 PM Mon 16 September, 2002
Alan Shiell
afl.com.au
Adelaide has declared champion midfielder Andrew McLeod a certain starter in Saturday’s first preliminary final against Collingwood at the MCG.
Trevor Jaques, the Crows’ training services manager, said on Monday scans had cleared McLeod of any bone damage in his right ankle.
“It is only a rolled ankle, as we thought, and Andrew will play this week,” Jaques said.
McLeod, who hurt his ankle in the third quarter against Melbourne in the second semi-final at the MCG on Saturday night, but returned to the field in the last term, rested from training at AAMI Stadium on Monday.
He swam in the Crows’ heated pool and had treatment, and will train on Wednesday.
Mark Ricciuto (corked thigh) and Tyson Stenglein (ankle) also did not train and swam in the pool. Neither is in any doubt this week.
Queenslander
16 Sep 2002, 17:46
Crows by 18.....!
maccas_no1
17 Sep 2002, 10:28
The Collingwood Magpies had better be ready for the game of there lives cause we will be so tough and hard at ya's you wont know what hit ya's forget the travelling we have done we are the best travelling side in the country, forget the injuries they dont exist just believe this we are going top leave the Magpies a screaming mess in the middle of the MCG on Saturday Arvo and you just need to believe that we will show all you feral Collingwood no-hopers how to play footy:)
An attempt to bring joy to Collingwood supporters has failed!!
Didnt think a decision about McLeod would be made so quickly!
I made it all up!!!!!!!
Go Adelaide! The AFL's Worst Nightmare is in our Hands to Deliver!
PrideofSA
17 Sep 2002, 12:30
Originally posted by Davo75
An attempt to bring joy to Collingwood supporters has failed!!
Didnt think a decision about McLeod would be made so quickly!
I made it all up!!!!!!!
Go Adelaide! The AFL's Worst Nightmare is in our Hands to Deliver!
I thought the AFL's worst nightmare was a Port vs Collingwood GF!
Hurricane75
17 Sep 2002, 13:35
Originally posted by PrideofSA
I thought the AFL's worst nightmare was a Port vs Collingwood GF!
Did I miss something :confused:
MagpieJoel
17 Sep 2002, 14:19
Collingwood will win. Adelaide's defence will struggle to cover our talls and smalls. Our backline will do enough, with the only problem being Burton...Probable All-Australian, Jimmy Clement will most likely play on Burton and should do well.
Buck's will play a ripper and will have a huge impact on this game. O'Bree will continue his good form from against Port, and Lica will nullify McLeod as well as getting a few possies himself.
Fraser, Rocca, Tarrant, Nick Davis, Leon Davis, Jarrod Molloy off the bench, Didak (he will pop up for a few), and company will be hard to stop. How does Adelaide expect to stop all these guys?
The problem I see Collingwood having is in the midfield but I think we are more than capable of matching it with Adelaide. As we have proved on numerous occasions so far this year, ie against Port, against Adelaide, against Brisbane.
Collingwood to win by 17 points.
O'Bree's in blinding form....one in a row so far and looking to continue his unbeaten run.
ok.crows
17 Sep 2002, 14:50
Originally posted by MagpieJoel
Collingwood will win. Adelaide's defence will struggle to cover our talls and smalls. Our backline will do enough, with the only problem being Burton...Probable All-Australian, Jimmy Clement will most likely play on Burton and should do well.
Buck's will play a ripper and will have a huge impact on this game. O'Bree will continue his good form from against Port, and Lica will nullify McLeod as well as getting a few possies himself.
Fraser, Rocca, Tarrant, Nick Davis, Leon Davis, Jarrod Molloy off the bench, Didak (he will pop up for a few), and company will be hard to stop. How does Adelaide expect to stop all these guys?
The problem I see Collingwood having is in the midfield but I think we are more than capable of matching it with Adelaide. As we have proved on numerous occasions so far this year, ie against Port, against Adelaide, against Brisbane.
Collingwood to win by 17 points.
At the risk of stepping on toes (I hope that I don't, this is the Pies board), I'd like to reply to this in the pure spirit of discussing the game, if you guys don't mind.
Burton has been fair but not all-australian I would have said. Burton can pop up at any time though and do the inspirational thing. Welsh actually is the more prolific scorer and lead Crows goalscoring up until the time he got OP. Stevens is great value, a true hard worker, possibly the competition's most under-rated CHF.
Lica on McLeod - given their history and McLeods dubious injury status, I'd expect McLeod to wander off to a flank somewhere to take Lica out of it a bit.
Pies forward line has potential to stretch Crows defence a bit, but not that much going by recent form I would have said.
Goodwin, Ricciuto, Stenglein, Edwards, Johnson ... how does Collingwood expect to stop all these guys? :D
But I feel the real problem for Pies might begin with the ruck ... Biglands and Clarke have been dominating and winning games for Adelaide.
A 50/50 game IMO, Adelaide by a goal or two. Maybe.
Hurricane75
17 Sep 2002, 15:08
Originally posted by ok.crows
Lica on McLeod - given their history and McLeods dubious injury status, I'd expect McLeod to wander off to a flank somewhere to take Lica out of it a bit.
LOL Lica is a tagger not a possession getter. That would be an advantage to us. :p
ok.crows
17 Sep 2002, 15:16
Originally posted by Hurricane75
LOL Lica is a tagger not a possession getter. That would be an advantage to us. :p
This is my exact point, so how so would it advantage you?
Pies fans always mention the Licuria is Pies weapon to tag McLeod, but in reality Licuria is an important part of Pies drive as well.
McLeod has been distinctly less than sparkling for Crows, and now he has injured his foot as well.
So ... if Malthouse uses Licuria on McLeod, McLeod will go where the ball is not, and take Licuria with him, so neither would influence the game much. If Licuria does not follow, well ... would you leave even a slightly injured McLeod alone by himself?
If Malthouse does not use Licuria on McLeod, then McLeod is easily good enough and fit enough still to be a matchwinner without Pies best nullifier on him.
So, what was the LOL all about then?
Oh, BTW, Stenglein on Buckley I'd think.
PS:
Just a quick extract from the AFL website statistics to back up this point, possessions in 2002 :
13. Paul Licuria Collingwood 473
14. Andrew McLeod Adelaide 472
Hurricane75
17 Sep 2002, 15:37
LOL MacLeod will not be left alone. Lica will stick to him. If MacLeod decides to stand in a pocket away from the ball, Lica will stand right next to him (away from the ball). We don't need Lica to drive us.
Lica plays his best games when he gets few touches.
Suits us fine.
ok.crows
17 Sep 2002, 15:51
Originally posted by Hurricane75
LOL MacLeod will not be left alone. Lica will stick to him. If MacLeod decides to stand in a pocket away from the ball, Lica will stand right next to him (away from the ball). We don't need Lica to drive us.
Lica plays his best games when he gets few touches.
Suits us fine.
What happened to the "Lica is a tagger not a possession getter" idea when it turns out that Licuria is in fact Pies' highest possession getter?
If you don't have Licuria to get the ball very much, then you are left with Buckley & Lockyer after that, and I think you might find you are getting into territory there where Crows possession getters start to become quite numerous in comparison.
BTW, I still think you will get spanked in the ruck.
Should be an interesting contest, I can't see how your tall forwards advantage is going to help all that much if the ball doesn't go down there often enough.
Sorry to say it but LOL yourself.
Hurricane75
17 Sep 2002, 16:48
Originally posted by ok.crows
What happened to the "Lica is a tagger not a possession getter" idea when it turns out that Licuria is in fact Pies' highest possession getter?.
Maybe. I'm not sure of the stats. I still don't think that Lica needs to get a lot of possessions to be a very effective player for us. In fact, his disposal isn't the best. Last year he won our B&F, and I think a lot of people were shocked because he goes unnoticed as he's a "worker" not a possession getter
Originally posted by ok.crows
BTW, I still think you will get spanked in the ruck.
Probably
Then again, I'm a girl who's been to the football ever since I was 8 years old and I still don't know much. All I know is that its good to get the ball inbetween those big sticks. :D :D :D
MagpieJoel
17 Sep 2002, 16:55
Originally posted by ok.crows
Burton has been fair but not all-australian I would have said. Burton can pop up at any time though and do the inspirational thing. Welsh actually is the more prolific scorer and lead Crows goalscoring up until the time he got OP. Stevens is great value, a true hard worker, possibly the competition's most under-rated CHF.
Ermmm, I meant Jimmy Clement. LOL!
ok.crows
17 Sep 2002, 17:01
Originally posted by Hurricane75
Maybe. I'm not sure of the stats.
I posted them for you before, official stats from the AFL website:
Possessions in 2002 :
13. Paul Licuria Collingwood 473
14. Andrew McLeod Adelaide 472
The 13 and 14 there refer to the ranking in the overall competition. Licuria is the 13th ranked player (for possessions) in all of the AFL. McLeod is 14th.
Licuria has had 473 possessions this year, McLeod just one less with 472.
If McLeod (who is not at 100% fitness with his foot) can drag Licuria away from the contests, both Adelaide and Collingwood effectively lose their highest possession winner (on average over the year) for this game.
I'm suggesting that with the other players in Adelaides midfield line-up, (and relative to possession winners for Pies), this would in fact benefit Adelaide more than it would benefit Pies, even if after the game you can say that "Licuria kept McLeod to just ten touches".
Hurricane75
17 Sep 2002, 17:06
Sorry didn't see that you had posted that.
I think we have a pretty powerful midfield either way.
Oh well I guess we'll see what happens.
ok.crows
17 Sep 2002, 17:06
Originally posted by MagpieJoel
Ermmm, I meant Jimmy Clement. LOL!
Oh! :D
I would have gone for Benny Hart myself in that position.
topjars
17 Sep 2002, 20:24
Its hard to split 'em.
If Collingwood think we will run out of legs be it at thier own peril .
Melbourne didnt exactly stop running in that last quarter:rolleyes: we just wanted it more.
Dont underestimate the "Bickley" factor either. If we do the "one percenters " (the bickleys) and kick straight, we will be hard to toss. Ayres would be foolish not to use this line at some stage during the week / game (Win it for Bicks)
Collingwood are favourites. Their game against the odds at Footy Park a few weeks back was sensational.
The Crows know what they have to do; maybe the coaching battle could tip the game in your favour. Im still a bit bemused by the lack of Adelaides manning up when opposition appear out on their own with no one in cooee of 'em.
Our "finals" experienced players is a big plus. If we get a sniff in the last look out
Crows by a poofteenth!!
Chelsea
17 Sep 2002, 23:32
I just can't pick the difference between the 2! I mean Collingwood have had the week off and Adelaide haven't so that's where I see Collingwood levelling it up!
But Adelaide should win only from experience and prestige and I hope I am right!
Go Crows!
Originally posted by topjars
Melbourne didnt exactly stop running in that last quarter:rolleyes: we just wanted it more.
Yeah, they kept running - into each other. Not that that had anything to do with the result.
Don't worry Nic, Pies will romp it in this week....just like I told you before round 14 :)
And as for Lica playing at his best with limited possessions, wasn't he BOG and didn't he get 36 touches against Port, supplying great drive through the midfield??
I agree with crows.ok here, I think Macca might have a role deep in the forward line or on a flank somewhere and hope to replicate his 98 prelim heroics. I doubt that he will though :(
kristin5
18 Sep 2002, 13:47
Nath usually blitzes against the Crows...and the Pies are sure to be spurred on by the oversight in the AA team selection. No Collingwood players? PUHLEEZE!
Where are you all sitting at the G on Saturday? I've got front row seats (in M11)
It's all too exciting...roll on Saturday!!!
Jars458
18 Sep 2002, 14:08
Since 1997 Adelaide and Collingwood have played 8 times
The sides have won 4 games each
The average winning margin is 12 points with no game over 36 point margin.
We have played twice on the MCG - one win each.
Adelaide by 9 points in 98 and Collingwood by 11 points in 2000.
All indicators show its a 50-50 game.
If Stenglein can keep Buckley quiet I think we will win as he has dominated in almost every game between the two sides.
PrideofSA
18 Sep 2002, 14:42
yeah Buckley is the key, When Collingwood beats Adelaide, Buckley always shines, so we keep him quiet we win the game....in theory!
Hurricane75
18 Sep 2002, 19:56
Originally posted by Chelsea
II mean Collingwood have had the week off and Adelaide haven't so that's where I see Collingwood levelling it up!
:confused: Levelling Up???? Since when were we behind you? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't we beat you in Adelaide :eek:
Originally posted by Hurricane75
:confused: Levelling Up???? Since when were we behind you? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't we beat you in Adelaide :eek:
She was probably referring to the fact you finished 4th and we finished 3rd.
ok.crows
18 Sep 2002, 20:39
Originally posted by Hurricane75
:confused: Levelling Up???? Since when were we behind you? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't we beat you in Adelaide :eek:
Yes you did beat Croows in Adelaide when Adelaide had an intense training schedule. Adelaide lost a few games around that time.
Can I do one of those confused thingies as well though? :confused: Ah, there you go.
So, I'm a bit :confused: as well, didn't Adelaide finish two games ahead of Collingwood on the ladder? When did you get in front of us?
Originally posted by ok.crows
Yes you did beat Croows in Adelaide when Adelaide had an intense training schedule. Adelaide lost a few games around that time.
Can I do one of those confused thingies as well though? :confused: Ah, there you go.
So, I'm a bit :confused: as well, didn't Adelaide finish two games ahead of Collingwood on the ladder? When did you get in front of us?
Intense training schedule ........WAAAAHHH
"You only beat us because we were on a losing streak" .... funny... must use that excuse for our Essendon loss...
Ladder finishes after 22 rounds.
We both got the double chance - remind me which team needed to use its double chance?
We are now equal on the ladder.
We will get in front at 5:00pm Saturday. (I hope)
ok.crows
18 Sep 2002, 22:06
Originally posted by hotpie
Intense training schedule ........WAAAAHHH
"You only beat us because we were on a losing streak" .... funny... must use that excuse for our Essendon loss...
OK, don't believe me, what do I care?
The fact is that bracket of three games that Crows lost - they had their intense training on at that time.
Crows have done this before - in both 97 and 98, but nearer the finals. At the time (last minor round games of 97 and 98) many people did exactly the same then - just about wrote Crows off.
Then they were all surprised when the finals series panned out they way they did.
MagpieJoel
19 Sep 2002, 11:07
Collingwood will win!
Originally posted by ok.crows
Crows have done this before - in both 97 and 98, but nearer the finals. At the time (last minor round games of 97 and 98) many people did exactly the same then - just about wrote Crows off.
Then they were all surprised when the finals series panned out they way they did.
.....and everybody has written off Collingwood because their form was average in the last 4-6 weeks of the season.
Originally posted by hotpie
.....and everybody has written off Collingwood because their form was average in the last 4-6 weeks of the season.
Average...
for Carlton.
PrideofSA
19 Sep 2002, 12:29
Originally posted by hotpie
.....and everybody has written off Collingwood because their form was average in the last 4-6 weeks of the season.
Yeah but now they are writing them up, because against Port u guys had nothing to lose and all the pressure was on Port and they folded!
But now, the pressure is on Collingwood, being the only Vic team left and would have to play well esp after they defeated Port in Adelaide!
Fair enough.
We wont choke like your Adelaide neighbors I guarantee that. But we are not raging favorites either - the pressure applies equally to both teams - and forget that "last Victorian team" line because nobody in Victoria gives a rats.
Hurricane75
19 Sep 2002, 18:38
Originally posted by ok.crows
Yes you did beat Croows in Adelaide when Adelaide had an intense training schedule. Adelaide lost a few games around that time.
Can I do one of those confused thingies as well though? :confused: Ah, there you go.
So, I'm a bit :confused: as well, didn't Adelaide finish two games ahead of Collingwood on the ladder? When did you get in front of us?
Doesn't matter if you finished 2 games clear,. It doesn't mean that we are behind you, because you obviously didnt match up on us that well.
You lost to us, so you have to catch up to us. I'm not saying you can't win though, just hoping you don't. ;)
if licka plays on mcleod, ayres will push mcleod to the goal square, taking licka right out of it. MM will have to use someone like benny johnson if he goes forward(this worries me a bit). collingwood have always struggled with small, nippy forwards(ie, farmer, ph.matera, burgoyne etc). welsh isnt given enough credit. im nervous as hell about this game - wouldve much prefered the dees with their small backline. midfield is obviously the decisive factor - bucks, licka, obree, scotland, steiner, rupes V rucciuto, mcleod, goodwin, johnson, stenglein etc. some great match ups.