View Full Version : Brett Lee
Is he a passenger in the Australian side...
thoughts???
Yes. 'Gold-pass' if I've ever seen one. The problem is probable replacements. Anyone?
Adelaide Hawk
7 Oct 2002, 16:33
I think so long as McGrath and Gillespie are bowling well, then Lee should continue to play. The more test cricket he plays the better he will be.
However, should either McGrath or Gillespie lose form, and Lee dosen't step up, then the selectors may need to look at an alternative.
Lee at full throttle is no doubt a test bowler.
Personally I believe that while McGrath and Gillespie are doing there thing and Warnie is still taking wickets Brett Lee should be able to run in and bowl as fast as he wants.
It many not be the case that Brett Lee takes a bagfull but the bloke at the other end will benifit from this aswell as Bowling is just as much about partnerships as batting.
Brett Lee is definitley the biggest free loader in the Aussie team at the moment, with the Waugh's probably not that far behind.
The only thing with Lee is that there is no real ready made replacement, could give Watson a go chances are he couldn't do any worse than what Lee is at the moment and the Kid can really bat.
Interesting really...
redi/whitei
7 Oct 2002, 18:20
Yes.
Done nothing for 18mths - 2 years.
Dizzy done a calf today so he will be picked again.
I wish Brad Williams was up and firing.
GoEagles
7 Oct 2002, 20:43
Originally posted by Guey_34
I wish Brad Williams was up and firing.
Lets hope Willo and Nichelson have a big summer! Lee is far too expensive and doesn't bring home the goods when needed - he'll get picked again due to Gillespies injury
clucas91
7 Oct 2002, 20:52
I posted a thread on this a while ago, I don't think Brett Lee is of the standard required of a test bowler judging by his form over the last 18 months. He is far too expensive and only ever chips in with 1 tailend wicket. Will admit, he will improve and become a great player, but should not be picked on such a regular basis IMO.
Agreed, Brett really hasn't done anything for a while, AND i also think there a number of suitable replacements.
If you want to go for experience, Michael Kasprowicz is well up to the task i reckon. Brad Williams is also starting to come of age, as is Stuart Clark.
Paul Rofe is really looking like he's gonna be an awesome bowler. He has a nice straight actoin and bowls stump to stump.
Matt Inness - funny actoin, but has the numbers on the board. Is a better bowler than Bracken.
I recokn any of those 5 are capable of doing just as good job as Brett Lee is at the moment.
Originally posted by hourn
Agreed, Brett really hasn't done anything for a while, AND i also think there a number of suitable replacements.
If you want to go for experience, Michael Kasprowicz is well up to the task i reckon. Brad Williams is also starting to come of age, as is Stuart Clark.
Paul Rofe is really looking like he's gonna be an awesome bowler. He has a nice straight actoin and bowls stump to stump.
Matt Inness - funny actoin, but has the numbers on the board. Is a better bowler than Bracken.
I recokn any of those 5 are capable of doing just as good job as Brett Lee is at the moment.
Agreed you could list off a whole number of bowlers who should be in the side ahead of Lee.
Add to that list Andy Bichel, Ashley Noffke, Matty Nicholson, etc.
I hated the way the selectors discarded Damien Fleming in favour of then unproven and still unproven Lee.
Hopefully Flembo can put the performances on the board for the mighty Redbacks and get back his right spot in the Australian side! (Or, failing that, help South Australia to a sheffield shield... yes I still call it that)
Yeah i reckon Brad Williams will fire up and he should get a game in the test side. He has proven he is quality over the last couple of seasons breaking into the one day side before breaking his finger.
Williams, Nicholson, Wilson, Angel, Carey, Hoggy.. our bowling line up looks much better this season and im looking forward to it.
wagstaff
7 Oct 2002, 23:50
Since the start of the 2001 England tour, Brett Lee has played 15 Tests for 44 wickets at the poor average of 38.40 (with a high economy rate of 3.78). It's incredible to think that he hasn't been dropped once in this period.
Lucky for him the class of McGrath, Warne and to a lesser extent Gillespie have covered up his deficincies.
And as others have pointed out in their posts, there are plenty of capable replacements for Lee, although most definitely one of them isn't Kasporwicz. Simply not up to the task of Test cricket, and unlike some others mentioned, has had a few opportunities to prove himself.
Kenny_01
8 Oct 2002, 03:01
Originally posted by wagstaff
Since the start of the 2001 England tour, Brett Lee has played 15 Tests for 44 wickets at the poor average of 38.40 (with a high economy rate of 3.78). It's incredible to think that he hasn't been dropped once in this period.
Lucky for him the class of McGrath, Warne and to a lesser extent Gillespie have covered up his deficincies.
And as others have pointed out in their posts, there are plenty of capable replacements for Lee, although most definitely one of them isn't Kasporwicz. Simply not up to the task of Test cricket, and unlike some others mentioned, has had a few opportunities to prove himself.
I agree about Kasporwicz. I couldn't stand to see him selected again.
Lee is fine for the time being.
bluechampion
8 Oct 2002, 13:38
You should go for variation with your third paceman.
- Fleming because he can swing the ball and handle a bat.
- Innes or Bracken for the difference in angle provided by left-armers.
- Watson because he's a good batsman and future prospect.
Brett Lee should concentrate hard on his batting and try and become a bowling all-rounder. It's the only way he'll be able to justify his place in the side if his pace drops off.
But I'm a massive wrap for Flemmo, and a little bit of me will die when he plays for SA for the first time.
What was Hookes thinking getting rid of him? He deserves to be playing for Australia. He can bat and bowl and is a top team-man.
Grrr.
Originally posted by bluechampion
You should go for variation with your third paceman.
- Fleming because he can swing the ball and handle a bat.
- Innes or Bracken for the difference in angle provided by left-armers.
- Watson because he's a good batsman and future prospect.
add to that Paul Rofe - he is the best young quick bowler in the land at the moment, and has had a proven season at SS level in which he finishe in the top 5 wicket takers.
He also has a good action, and run up that suggests he could really step it up into the next level.
Yep sure is a passenger as he hasnt done much for 12 to 18 months and is getting a game based only on the fact that he can bowl fast but he cant bowl accurately enough to take wickets.
Mcgrath doesnt bowl that fast but he knows where to put the ball in the right spot to take wickets.
The problem with Lee is he is trying to break world speed records and not achieving much else.
Nige_Bix
9 Oct 2002, 01:21
I've been patient with him personally - always expecting the "next test" will see him come of age! My patience is running out
I'm still p****** off with the way he bowled to the tailenders in Australia recently - especially in Adelaide.
cjwalkley
9 Oct 2002, 12:13
Get Matthew Inness in there and that would really improve the line - up.
I guess for Inness to get a game though he would have to move to NSW.
bluechampion
9 Oct 2002, 17:18
I agree. The side desperately lacks a Victorian pacebowler.
Brett Li
9 Oct 2002, 17:31
Originally posted by bluechampion
I agree. The side desperately lacks a Victorian pacebowler.
Did you say Simon O'Donnell?:confused: :confused:
Originally posted by bluechampion
I agree. The side desperately lacks a Victorian pacebowler.
Victoria desperately lacks a pace bowler.
Brett Lee is not up to the highest level.
I've noticed a couple of things about him lately.
1. He has bowls fast and that's it. It's rarely accurate and consistently concedes large amounts of runs. When he tries to change pace his slow ball is too slow and has no effect at all compared to the slow ball of say an Ian Harvey. His one speed only is easily played at by the batsmen. He has no variety like a good paceman, such as McGrath has.
2. When hit for a few runs he starts behaving like a spoilt little brat by aiming for the head of the batsmen, he starts bowling garbage, which is a stark constrast from the garbage he usually bowls. He starts firing returns at the batsmen, this saw many of the Pakis run away fearing a cricket ball right between the eyes. When frustrated he concedes run after run easily and the batsmen know they have him on ice. It is very similar to McGrath and the way he sooks when things don't go his way.
As for passenger, that is the most accurate assessment of him I've seen for a while.
Originally posted by cjwalkley
Get Matthew Inness in there and that would really improve the line - up.
I guess for Inness to get a game though he would have to move to NSW.
Yeah, your dead right. I'm surprised Damien Fleming didn't consider moving there, going to SA isn't going to increase your chances of a recall to the Aussie team.
bluechampion
10 Oct 2002, 20:08
Originally posted by Brett Li
Did you say Simon O'Donnell?:confused: :confused:
I meant it in the nicest way possible...
Santos L Helper
11 Oct 2002, 00:39
Originally posted by Catman
Brett Lee is not up to the highest level.
I've noticed a couple of things about him lately.
1. He has bowls fast and that's it. It's rarely accurate and consistently concedes large amounts of runs. When he tries to change pace his slow ball is too slow and has no effect at all compared to the slow ball of say an Ian Harvey. His one speed only is easily played at by the batsmen. He has no variety like a good paceman, such as McGrath has.
2. When hit for a few runs he starts behaving like a spoilt little brat by aiming for the head of the batsmen, he starts bowling garbage, which is a stark constrast from the garbage he usually bowls. He starts firing returns at the batsmen, this saw many of the Pakis run away fearing a cricket ball right between the eyes. When frustrated he concedes run after run easily and the batsmen know they have him on ice. It is very similar to McGrath and the way he sooks when things don't go his way.
As for passenger, that is the most accurate assessment of him I've seen for a while.
I agree with most of this except that he is no longer capable of bowling real fast. Gillespie get's em up to the 140's as often as this over rated hack.
I repeat that Lee is a HACK!
Originally posted by Santos L Helper
I repeat that Lee is a HACK!
And I may as well start it, he's a chucker too. Him and Shoaib I feel are only allowed to play because of the outcry and controversy that would arise if they were found to be chuckers.
Lee out...Fleming In.
Dont know how he got out of favour in the first place, a much better bowler in my opinion.
Arch#11
11 Oct 2002, 11:12
Flemming is a gun, but he is injury prone.
Can't even play for the redbacks this week because he went over to England bowled 4 overs and stuffed his neck.
When fit he is still Australia's 2nd best fast bowler.
GOALden Hawk
11 Oct 2002, 11:32
What's Bichel done wrong? His form in tests when given the opportunity has been pretty good.
Certainly if the pitch isn't a raging turner today I hope he gets his chance. One bad game though and I bet he gets the arse before Lee!
Still, could be worse - imagine it was Shane Lee in the test team!
Santos L Helper
11 Oct 2002, 12:25
Originally posted by Catman
And I may as well start it, he's a chucker too. Him and Shoaib I feel are only allowed to play because of the outcry and controversy that would arise if they were found to be chuckers.
Watching the first test, the 'slow mo' replays showed their arms were as bent as Robbie Waterhouse.
boom boom.
wagstaff
11 Oct 2002, 13:44
Originally posted by jod23
Lee out...Fleming In.
Dont know how he got out of favour in the first place, a much better bowler in my opinion.
Agreed, constant injuries hurt him but he was very unlucky not to get more Test opportunities then he has.
Pathetic that he didn't get to play in at least one Ashes Test ahead of Lee in 2001.
dougthelegend
11 Oct 2002, 14:18
Originally posted by Catman
And I may as well start it, he's a chucker too. Him and Shoaib I feel are only allowed to play because of the outcry and controversy that would arise if they were found to be chuckers.
one difference btweem lee and shoab... shoab is a magnificent strike bowler in full flight, and has a great inswinging yorker.
Originally posted by dougthelegend
one difference btweem lee and shoab... shoab is a magnificent strike bowler in full flight, and has a great inswinging yorker.
True. Lee has no arsenal. Just a wayward fast ball that the batsmen play easily.
Brett Lee is an important part of the ACB Marketing plan.
Bulldog1954
18 Oct 2002, 18:28
Brett Lee is a over rated over hyped dud who's, quicker ball is a throw
Started with an average of 20, since then would be averaging mid thirties
Brett Li
18 Oct 2002, 19:18
Originally posted by Bulldog1954
Brett Lee is a over rated over hyped dud who's, quicker ball is a throw
Started with an average of 20, since then would be averaging mid thirties
things don't bode well for Oz bowling attack in the future...where is the young talent that will take over the mantle when Glenn and Warnie retire? Lee was supposed to be that man, but you are right, he is far too wayward.
If I were you guys I'd wrap McGrath in cotton wool after every game.
Originally posted by Brett Li
things don't bode well for Oz bowling attack in the future...where is the young talent that will take over the mantle when Glenn and Warnie retire? Lee was supposed to be that man, but you are right, he is far too wayward.
If I were you guys I'd wrap McGrath in cotton wool after every game.
The young Australian bowers are as strong ast hey have been now for the past few years.
Spinners:
Cameron White - pretty good bowler and very handy with the bat. Not a prodigious turner of the ball, but gets a lot of bouncer and is very awkward.
Nathan Hauritz - excels in the much easier craft of finger spin. Nothing really that special, but will cause oposition batsmen some troble.
Quicls:
Paul Rofe - Probalby the best young quickie going around at the moment. Finished number 4 in the SS wickettakers last season and has a nice simple action, unlike some of the other guys goign around (ala Inness). Born in 1980.
Matt Inness - As already mentioned has an ordinary actoin which is probably one of the reasons he hasn't been mentioned in Test selections yet but he has the numbers on the board picking up 160 FC wickets already from 40-odd games at 24. including 31wkts at 19 last season in SS. Born in 1978.
Aaron Bird - Hasn't played in first class cricket yet, but has been absolutely brilliant since moving into first grade cricket in Sydney. The quickest bowler i have ever faced and i'm very happy that i only faced a couple of balls from him when he was about 14. Born in 1983.
Shane Jurgensen - Good quickie from Tasmania, has played a dozen or so first class games and nearly taken 50 wickets at around 25. Have only seen him bowl a handful of times but he looks like he can do the job at any level. Born in 1976.
Scott Brant - Made his debut last year for Queensland and has been very impressive since then. Best figures were 3 for about 20 and has shown that he can match at this level at just 18 years of age. Born in 1983.
There is defintealy plenty of talent coming through in the bowling department, and there are a few others who i didn't include in there such as Nathan Bracken (i dont reckon he has the talent the other 5 do), Damien McKenize (only played one first class game and i haven't actually seen him yet) and William Carr from Victoria (only played a few games, born in '76, but has made an immediate impact).
I would be very comfortable with putting an Australian 2nd XI bowling attack against any batting line-up in the world. I dont know whether they would EVERY team in the world, but there isn't a team that would think they had a walkover victory against them.
also, Shannon Tubb is a useful left arm leggie from Tasmania.
Brett is brilliant, especially his fantastic celebrations he puts on when he gets another number 11 batsman out!
Where's Scott Muller when we need him. :p
Originally posted by Davo23
Brett is brilliant, especially his fantastic celebrations he puts on when he gets another number 11 batsman out!
So true, I cringe every time I see him jump 20 metres in the air after yorking the Number 11 with an average of 3.
Brett Li
18 Oct 2002, 20:21
Originally posted by hourn
also, Shannon Tubb is a useful left arm leggie from Tasmania.
sounds terrible
Wishinman
19 Oct 2002, 00:27
Originally posted by scmods
Brett Lee is an important part of the ACB Marketing plan.
Would not look good for Weetbix if Lee was dropped, and a few screamin teens would lose interest in the game.
GoEagles
19 Oct 2002, 01:45
Originally posted by Brett Li
sounds terrible
sounds terrible because the 'Tubb' makes him sound fat? Or Shannon is too much like a chicks name?
Funny how in the early-mid 90s, Tasmania used to have really FAT guys playing for them. There was some bloke that was about 3 times bigger than David Boon
Brett Li
19 Oct 2002, 01:53
Originally posted by GoEagles
sounds terrible because the 'Tubb' makes him sound fat? Or Shannon is too much like a chicks name?
Funny how in the early-mid 90s, Tasmania used to have really FAT guys playing for them. There was some bloke that was about 3 times bigger than David Boon
The whole package really....
1. A Tasmanian
2. Tubb - not the sort of name to strike fear into batsmen. I can only imagine the nicknames
3. Shannon - palpably a chicks name
4. left arm leggie? not exactly a truck load of successful Left arm unorthodox bowlers thru history. no doubt some anorak will come up with a couple that took a few way back (cue BoozeHound/Dipper)
Originally posted by Brett Li
4. left arm leggie? not exactly a truck load of successful Left arm unorthodox bowlers thru history. no doubt some anorak will come up with a couple that took a few way back (cue BoozeHound/Dipper)
Beeeeeeeeeeeeevoooo :D:D:D for about 6 tests then he was exposed for the part timer he really is.
My own uncle did allright for NSW in the 70's :D
ummmmmmmm not to many others though.
wagstaff
21 Oct 2002, 22:45
I would say there's a fair chance that Brett Lee won't be in the first Test team to play England at the Gabba in a couple of weeks.
While he hasn't been performing for a while now and still getting picked, the difference is Jason Gillespie's injury. Presuming he's fit, he'll have to come into the side and replace someone.
It will be between Bichel and Lee. I'm not Bichel's biggest fan but if he wasn't picked ahead of Lee this time, he would be entitled to be very, very harshly dealt with.
sandeano
21 Oct 2002, 22:57
I've been watching Lee bowl during this series and it is obvious he has no plan whatsoever in his attack.
He simply runs in and bangs the ball in. Full toss, half volley, skewing down legside, veering way outside off. Every now and again (as the law of averages states) he'll get one on the spot, but the batsman by this point is watchful and aware and plays even the good balls quite comfortably.
It has been something of a mystery to me why this lad has held his place for so long. I'd compare him to Patrick Patterson, a Windies bowler of the mid 1980s. Full of pace but without a clue as to how to 'fox' out top-class batsmen. The classier hitters use his pace to their advantage and club him to all corners of the oval. Sure he started out in a balze of glory as the great white hope of Australian fast bowling. But his game has not developed to any degree in the ensuing years.
If we are forced to 'carry' a bowler, let it be Bichel. He may not look as flash scoffing down a bowl of brekkie cereal, but he at least has some strategy in his game, is relatively inexpensive and (lately) takes the odd wicket.
wagstaff
21 Oct 2002, 23:05
Originally posted by sandeano
It has been something of a mystery to me why this lad has held his place for so long. I'd compare him to Patrick Patterson, a Windies bowler of the mid 1980s. Full of pace but without a clue as to how to 'fox' out top-class batsmen.
Pretty good comparison that. Patterson was a fairly limited bowler although he was well known for bowling some brutal spells (one against Australia in 1988/89 at the MCG comes to mind). However when he came here in 1992/93 and his pace had dropped a bit, he was finished.
Devon Malcolm and Shoaib Akhtar would be other valid comparisons. For all the hype about Malcolm and the occasional devastating Test performance, his Test average of 37 is a very poor one
And I've never been a fan of Akhtar either, almost as overhyped as Brett Lee. Certainly, he bowled a devastating spell in the First Test, but didn't have much of an impact in the Second and didn't play in the Third, according to various accounts, with an injury you apparently get when things get too hard for you.
Still want to know why Bichel isn't permanetly picked in front of him? He is as good with the ball and more consistent too, as well as the fact his batting is better than Lee's.
Brett Lee.
He started so well but has fallen away so badly. His bowling is very ordinary and has been for some time now.
Assuming Gillespie is fit for the Gabba, it should be McGrath, Gillespie and Bichel.
As for the others, Noffke, Innes, Bracken, Clark and maybe Nicholson are promising. Rofe might be another season or so away yet. Williams looks a bit limited to me.
I think Fleming's finished unfortunately, too many injuries.
wagstaff
23 Oct 2002, 00:28
I managed to see two or three overs Lee bowled today and they weren't impressive to say the least. To tailenders such as Sami and Kaniera, all he was able to deliver were a succession of predictable yorkers, with the odd short ball added in for variety.
Seemed incapable of bowling a good length delivery.
The Pakistanti batsmen didn't seem unduly fussed by his bowling and if the stats they showed were accurate, he wasn't even bowling that fast anyway.
Looked distressed at the end of his spell, and I doubt the weather was the only cause.