Trading for Picks

[OldSchool]

Just read an article where it apppears the Dogs are looking to off load a player or two to improve our draft selections.

There may not be too many player for player swaps made by us, but player for draft picks will be considered

[The Doctor]

one article suggested we would be prepared to trade Alvey for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. That would be completely stupid imo. I can understand wanting to get some extra draft picks but the positioning of those is what is important. I really doubt that a 3rd pick would deliver us a player the calibre of Alvey. We would be lucky in the extreme. Same goes for the 2nd rounders. Too risky for mine.

[Templeton31]

I agree Doc. I nearly choked on my weeties when I read trade Alvey for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

I should point out however that Alvey is in trouble on the following basis:

2000 - Number on my jumper: 34, Mark West
End of Season: Delisted

2001 - Number on my jumper: 19, Adam Contessa
End of Season: Delisted

2002 - Number on my jumper: 31, Mark Alvey


I think there is a trend there. :( :D

[stefoid]

Ill have a go at guessing their logic...

1) we need to reduce player payments.
2) Alves is going to find it difficult to get a regular gig in the senior side this year. Perhaps Rhodes has had a look at the less accountable players on the list that do not fit his new game plan. 3) we have scotty clayton now, but maybe not when his contract expires, so the more draft picks he gets to use, the better
4) we may need extra picks to trade if a keating or lade becomes available

[Westy_Boy]

FFS, I'm sick of the club putting 5 years of development into players, finally see them finding their feet at senior level with 50 odd games under their belt, only to then see us offload them for next to nothing in return. Absolutely sick of it. :mad:

Unless it's a very high second round pick (earlier than at least selection #25), that's not enough to make me want to part with him - injuries permitting, Alvey's got at least another 150 games left in him - the same can't be said for, say, selection 40 - who'll most probably need a further three to five years of development invested in him 'til he gets to Alvey's level anyway!

He's originally a first round pick himself, came top 6 in our disposals, #1 in inside 50s, has absolutely elite skills by foot, averages over a goal a game, and in contract terms, comes with half the price tag of the Blumfields, Heath Blacks, Johnstones and Power's of the comp, despite being younger and having similar or superior output.

Given his (and our) low profile, this is the worst time to trade him - Get a good deal or keep him.

[stefoid]

Originally posted by Westy_Boy
FFS, I'm sick of the club putting 5 years of development into players, finally see them finding their feet at senior level with 50 odd games under their belt, only to then see us offload them for next to nothing in return. Absolutely sick of it. :mad:

Unless it's a very high second round pick (earlier than at least selection #25), that's not enough to make me want to part with him - injuries permitting, Alvey's got at least another 150 games left in him - the same can't be said for, say, selection 40 - who'll most probably need a further three to five years of development invested in him 'til he gets to Alvey's level anyway!

He's originally a first round pick himself, came top 6 in our disposals, #1 in inside 50s, has absolutely elite skills by foot, averages over a goal a game, and in contract terms, comes with half the price tag of the Blumfields, Heath Blacks, Johnstones and Power's of the comp, despite being younger and having similar or superior output.

Given his (and our) low profile, this is the worst time to trade him - Get a good deal or keep him.

I understand exactly what your saying, but he is also lacking in physical presence and fairly loose. Im not saying he has no improvement left, but if he cant get a game in the seniors, is it worth keeping him?

I reckon he is behind MacMahon, Guido, Robbo and maybe Johno and Gilbee in laying claim to a spot on the wing. Tough times call for tough decisions.

I really cant see loosing both Alvey and Eagleton having a huge impact on our side in 03, unless it is a +ve impact by way of securing a Keating type of player.

[dancingdoggie17]

Originally posted by Templeton31
I agree Doc. I nearly choked on my weeties when I read trade Alvey for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

I should point out however that Alvey is in trouble on the following basis:

2000 - Number on my jumper: 34, Mark West
End of Season: Delisted

2001 - Number on my jumper: 19, Adam Contessa
End of Season: Delisted

2002 - Number on my jumper: 31, Mark Alvey


I think there is a trend there. :( :D

Well, don't you DARE but 17, 13, 3, 7, 14...hang on! If we still have him next year you could get 10! lol

[OldSchool]

Originally posted by Westy_Boy
He's originally a first round pick himself,

First pick of the second round I think.

Possibly because he is out of contract makes him trade material and given we are a little over supplied on midfield types might be a further consideration for the club.
Alvey had a good season and I think it is good to test what might be on offer given that his trade value may never get higher.
Happy to keep him if there is not a suitable offer but he is expendable

[stefoid]

Originally posted by OldSchool


First pick of the second round I think.

Possibly because he is out of contract makes him trade material and given we are a little over supplied on midfield types might be a further consideration for the club.
Alvey had a good season and I think it is good to test what might be on offer given that his trade value may never get higher.
Happy to keep him if there is not a suitable offer but he is expendable

Yeah, whatever pick we used to get him doesnt really matter anyway -- its history. We might as well say, Granty was originally a 4th round pick, so he wouldnt be worth much in trade....

[Westy_Boy]

I know that he's got his limitations, and I know he's not guaranteed a spot in the top 22 next season - but the same reasoning was given for getting rid of Powell and Cox - just because they're not guaranteed a game in our structure, doesn't mean we should be content with getting ripped off in trades, or as was the case with Cox, letting them go for nothing.

Seeing so many of our players only being recognised for their true worth once they leave the club (after being picked up for next to nothing) is starting to give me the shlts ... swapping Alvey for a 3rd round pick will just continue the trend of massive trade goofs on our part, especially when considering that it's a weak draft. It's a stupid trade which achieves nothing.

[Captain Sensible]

A couple of ponts.



1. Alvey is expendable, but only for the right deal. Player of similiar quality of a type that better suits our needs or an early 2nd round or even late first round pick.

2. The Torney factor. He is out of contract and has just had his best season so that puts him in a better bargaining position. Rose mentionad maybe having to avoid bigger names and eventually having to let guys go if we simply cant afford their wage demands.(scary huh) Maybe we cant offer him what is his actual market value?

[stefoid]

Originally posted by Westy_Boy
I know that he's got his limitations, and I know he's not guaranteed a spot in the top 22 next season - but the same reasoning was given for getting rid of Powell and Cox - just because they're not guaranteed a game in our structure, doesn't mean we should be content with getting ripped off in trades, or as was the case with Cox, letting them go for nothing.

Seeing so many of our players only being recognised for their true worth once they leave the club (after being picked up for next to nothing) is starting to give me the shlts ... swapping Alvey for a 3rd round pick will just continue the trend of massive trade goofs on our part, especially when considering that it's a weak draft. It's a stupid trade which achieves nothing.

Powell, Cox, Monty.. none of these guys has gone on to set the world on fire. They have maximised their potential and been handy players for their new sides, thats about it. None of them would be walk up starts in our current side, would they? Id be complaining more about the other side of the coin...what have we got in return?

[bullish23]

Originally posted by stefoid


I reckon he is behind MacMahon, Guido, Robbo and maybe Johno and Gilbee in laying claim to a spot on the wing. Tough times call for tough decisions.


I would of thought alvey had a better year than McMahon, Guido, Gilbee and Robbo. Do agree though that MacMahon and Guido will probably be better players in the long run.

Definately agree with westy_boy about getting sick of off loading a 5th year player and seeing them do well at other clubs. Keep Alvey as he is going to be a good player in the next couple of years, when we should peak. An 18yr old in the draft will not deliver more to the team in the next 2 years than what Alvey can. These next two years are very important for the club!!

At one point during the season he was the most efficient player in the AFL in disposals. Obviously very skillful and defiantely should be retained!!

[stefoid]

Originally posted by bullish23


I would of thought alvey had a better year than McMahon, Guido, Gilbee and Robbo. Do agree though that MacMahon and Guido will probably be better players in the long run.

Definately agree with westy_boy about getting sick of off loading a 5th year player and seeing them do well at other clubs. Keep Alvey as he is going to be a good player in the next couple of years, when we should peak. An 18yr old in the draft will not deliver more to the team in the next 2 years than what Alvey can. These next two years are very important for the club!!

At one point during the season he was the most efficient player in the AFL in disposals. Obviously very skillful and defiantely should be retained!!

5 years in the system should be enough to decide whether a kid is going to deliver on his potential, which is probably why the players we got rid of where around that mark.

You reckon Alves has much improvement in him?

[OldSchool]

Originally posted by Westy_Boy
I know that he's got his limitations, and I know he's not guaranteed a spot in the top 22 next season - but the same reasoning was given for getting rid of Powell and Cox - just because they're not guaranteed a game in our structure, doesn't mean we should be content with getting ripped off in trades, or as was the case with Cox, letting them go for nothing.


Do you think Alvey might be holding back players like McMahon, Power and Gilbee who could all end up better players in the long run ?
He may not be taking games of them however, he could be taking game time of them. We moved Grgic on when he was holding back Darcy and Grgic's form was good at the time.

I really don't see any reason not to test the water with him or nearly any other player for that matter especially when we have depth in his postion.
If the right deal was on offer we would be silly not consider it.
Regarding the Powell and Monty trade, well that was driven by a coach that was obsessed although I agree that letting Simon Cox go was not a good outcome.
In general terms, I think the club has done OK with their player trades over the last few years, except the one for Eagle.
Hunter for Wira worked. Martin for Bartlett was neutral.
The Bandy trade worked. Cameron for draft picks worked although I hated to see him go.
I think the thing with trades is that you will get some wrong but in essence we have not done to bad considering that there never appears to be a lot of name players wanting to play for us.

[Westy_Boy]

Originally posted by stefoid


Powell, Cox, Monty.. none of these guys has gone on to set the world on fire. They have maximised their potential and been handy players for their new sides, thats about it. None of them would be walk up starts in our current side, would they? Id be complaining more about the other side of the coin...what have we got in return?

Monty won Port's B&F in 2000, finished in their top 10 in both 2001 and 2002, and earned All Australian selection this year.

Powell finished top 5 in Melbourne's B&F in 2000 - sat out last year with OP, slowly got back into it this year, with a couple of BOG's early in the season. Don't think you'll find many dees fans willing to trade him. To answer your question ... I reckon a harder inside midfielder like him would slot into our onball setup in a flash, IMO.

Cox finished 2nd in Hawthorn's B&F this year - Hawk fans are absolutely rapt with how he's performed. Don't know if he'd fit into our team, but if he was definitely leaving, we should have got at least something in return.

BTW: I AM complaining about the flip side of the coin - I've got no problem with trading blokes, even players I rate highly, just as long as there's some genuine and reasonable logic behind it and we get something meaningful in return.

[Westy_Boy]

Originally posted by OldSchool


Do you think Alvey might be holding back players like McMahon, Power and Gilbee who could all end up better players in the long run ?
He may not be taking games of them however, he could be taking game time of them. We moved Grgic on when he was holding back Darcy and Grgic's form was good at the time.

I really don't see any reason not to test the water with him or nearly any other player for that matter especially when we have depth in his postion.
If the right deal was on offer we would be silly not consider it.
Regarding the Powell and Monty trade, well that was driven by a coach that was obsessed although I agree that letting Simon Cox go was not a good outcome.
In general terms, I think the club has done OK with their player trades over the last few years, except the one for Eagle.
Hunter for Wira worked. Martin for Bartlett was neutral.
The Bandy trade worked. Cameron for draft picks worked although I hated to see him go.
I think the thing with trades is that you will get some wrong but in essence we have not done to bad considering that there never appears to be a lot of name players wanting to play for us.

Is there room for a 22 year old who managed 400 odd touches this year, averaged over a goal a game and is one of the best kicks in the team? I’d say yes.

As I said in my post above, I have absolutely no issue with testing the market with Alvey, Robbins or whoever– when the market says “3rd round pick” and we proceed is when I start getting plssed off. :)

I won't go into detail on our other trades, but: Despite it turning out ok in the end, we should have got a hell of a lot more for Cameron. No way known should we have given up pick 26 for Bandy, nor a second round pick for Garlick. Eagleton the biggest trade disaster the club has seen in the last decade.

Remarkably, the Martin/Bartlett trade also netted us Gia, so a big win there. Huddo for a third round pick was another big win - on trading it for Picken and Rusca a big mistake.

Despite the couple of exceptions, I've never been a fan of our negotiating or decision making in trading - just hope we turn it around now that Wallace has gone.

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by stefoid


Powell, Cox, Monty.. none of these guys has gone on to set the world on fire. They have maximised their potential and been handy players for their new sides, thats about it. None of them would be walk up starts in our current side, would they? Id be complaining more about the other side of the coin...what have we got in return?

You must be joking. All get regular games in sides that finished above us, ones an All Austrlian, one came 2nd in a best and fairest and the other has dominated a finals series. If all 3 came to the dogs next year playing how they are they would all be in our best 10 players

[jim440]

Originally posted by stefoid


Powell, Cox, Monty.. none of these guys has gone on to set the world on fire. They have maximised their potential and been handy players for their new sides, thats about it. None of them would be walk up starts in our current side, would they? Id be complaining more about the other side of the coin...what have we got in return?

I agree with stefoid. Monty can only play HBF and wouldn't get a game there before Smith or Murphy, Powell is hard as nails but is slow and can't kick. Cox can kick but is slow and soft.

I would have Monty or Powell back, for sure, but they are not the biggest losses we've ever seen.

[stefoid]

Originally posted by Bulldog1954


You must be joking. All get regular games in sides that finished above us, ones an All Austrlian, one came 2nd in a best and fairest and the other has dominated a finals series. If all 3 came to the dogs next year playing how they are they would all be in our best 10 players

We got a poor return on the talent we had this year, thats true, but for deficiencies that none of those players mentioned would have fixed. We are two quality KPP short of having a really good side -- unless youre counting Cox as a quality KPP?

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by jim440


I agree with stefoid. Monty can only play HBF and wouldn't get a game there before Smith or Murphy, Powell is hard as nails but is slow and can't kick. Cox can kick but is slow and soft.

I would have Monty or Powell back, for sure, but they are not the biggest losses we've ever seen.

Monty can also play forward, but if we still had him would play HBF and would allow either Smith to go forward or Murph through the midfield.

Powell is tough as nails, something with the loss of Libber and the ageing of Dimma we lack, he would be great to have back.

[Mr. Walker]

Originally posted by OldSchool


Do you think Alvey might be holding back players like McMahon, Power and Gilbee who could all end up better players in the long run ?
He may not be taking games of them however, he could be taking game time of them. We moved Grgic on when he was holding back Darcy and Grgic's form was good at the time.

.

OldSchool, do you really believe this "keeping out a better player" line of thought. Those of us old enough to remember the last days of Ted Whitten heard it too. EJ was forced out, presumably a younger player came in and hey presto, 15 years later (?) we made the finals.

I am a believer in cream rising to the top and if the players you mentioned are better than Alvey they will force their way in. Getting rid of a good player even in a good trade to give other players an easy ride to the top is not guaranteed a success. Say we do get a second round pick for Alvey? I am guessing that history is littered with dud second round draft picks. A bird in the hand and all that!

[Captain Sensible]

Originally posted by Mr. Walker


EJ was forced out, presumably a younger player came in and hey presto, 15 years later (?) we made the finals.




4 years later(1974), 6 years later(1976), then 15 years later(1985).

[Mr. Walker]

OK, i may have got the years wrong but the principle remains. I do not accept that one player holds another one back especially midfielders. If the others are good enough they will secure places, Alvey does not have to be traded solely to help the development of others.

and you didn't answer the question as to whether you believe it is necesaary

[dogboy23]

I think we are past the point of trading for draft choices.We have a good core of youngsters via a couple of years of rebuilding now we have to consolidate and start building them into a formidable unit.Keep the picks we have to keep refreshing the list and trade players like Alvey only if it gets you a player capable of improving your structure.It is pointless putting all that money and time into Alvey only to get rid of him for a draft pick of lesser value than what we used to pick him up.If we could get a second and third for him and then on trade them for a quality player then it would become a bit more appetising.If the reasoning for it is money problems then Eagleton should be copping the brunt of it more than Alvey.

On Powell and Monty both would be in our top 10 players easily.Monty is close to the best half back flanker going around and Powell is IMO the dees most important player bar White,Yze and Nietz.

[OldSchool]

Originally posted by Mr. Walker


OldSchool, do you really believe this "keeping out a better player" line of thought. Those of us old enough to remember the last days of Ted Whitten heard it too. EJ was forced out, presumably a younger player came in and hey presto, 15 years later (?) we made the finals.

I am a believer in cream rising to the top and if the players you mentioned are better than Alvey they will force their way in. Getting rid of a good player even in a good trade to give other players an easy ride to the top is not guaranteed a success. Say we do get a second round pick for Alvey? I am guessing that history is littered with dud second round draft picks. A bird in the hand and all that!

Yeah I do. The Grgic example is one that springs to mind.
He was a good ruckman who was an understudy to Wynd and filled in well when he had to. Darcy was next in line but could not get enough real time because of Grgic. The Dogs moved on a good player to make more room for a player that could be a great player. Alvey is a good player but guys like McMahon, Power and perhaps Gilbee should end up a lot better than Alvey ever could.
I said previously that we are overstocked on players like him and because he is just about out of contract his name is being mentioned.

I'm not sure why there is speculation on what is actually currently on offer for Mark but he might in packaged with a third round pick to secure a late first round pick. Who really knows what has been offered but it is no use for anyone to be negative of a speculative trade. Judge the trade if it gets made but at the moment we have very little facts.

[stefoid]

Dogs site says some clubs have been asking after Eagleton.

I can hardly believe it. Is it propaganda?

Alvey I can believe.

BTW. Chick to Weavils is done. Spider to Hawks is done, solidifying HAwthorn as the ruckmans graveyard. At least Darce can rest easy knowing the Hawks will give him another 2 years when he turns 35.

[OldSchool]

Originally posted by stefoid
Dogs site says some clubs have been asking after Eagleton.

I can hardly believe it. Is it propaganda?

Alvey I can believe.

BTW. Chick to Weavils is done. Spider to Hawks is done, solidifying HAwthorn as the ruckmans graveyard. At least Darce can rest easy knowing the Hawks will give him another 2 years when he turns 35.

Cant believe the Eagles coughed up a first round pick for Chick.
He is a good player but I would have tried to keep pick 10.
The Hawks appear to have made an error by giving up too much for Everitt. This has left the likes of French and Keating available for clubs like the Dogs, Essendon and Carlton.
Melbourne clubs do not seem to be able to afford Bradshaw
I would expect the majority of trades to be made on Monday

[OldSchool]

With the speculation that Carlton are still likely to have their first two picks taken off them I wonder if Richmond paid too much for Kane Johnson ?
If they knew that they could have ended up with the second pick overall by default and had a chance at grabbing Wells I am sure the lure of Johnson would not have been so clear cut.

I would be more than happy if the Doggies move two positions higher

[bullish23]

Originally posted by stefoid


You reckon Alves has much improvement in him?

Definately. The guy is only 22, and now knows what the AFL is all about. I just think if we off load him now, he will become a really good player at another club and we will regret it.

[stefoid]

I havent heard of any doggie delistings.

Has it not happened yet, or did I just miss it?