Elite Kicking Skills at EFC

[yaco55]

One of my hobby horses is the poor kicking skills of AFL players.

In my opinion, EFC needs to aim for about 50% of their players to have elite skills to become a very good football team.

I have included a list of players on the Senior list ( I have not included 2008 draftees or rookie listed players ) who i believe have elite kicking skills.

I have been strict in my assessment and have not included Hurley because he has not yet played AFL football.

As an example, I am looking for a player who when breaking from the centre ( under some pressure ) can pinpoint a pass to a leading forward. Of course there are other exemples such as; spotting up a 50 or 60 metre pass from the backline ( ala Fletcher ), or the ability to consistently kick long goals from all sorts of angles ( ala Lucas ).

The players I assessed with elite kicking skills

- Fletcher
- Lloyd
- Lucas
- McVeigh
- Winderlich
- Ryder
- Reimers

Give me your opinion.

[Colin D'Cops]

My list of players from the EFC that IMO have elite kicking skills ;

Courtenay Dempsey
Dustin Fletcher
Bachar Houli
Scott Lucas
Mark McVeigh
David Myers
Jay Neagle
Brent Prismall
Paddy Ryder
Matthew Lloyd

[Sir James]

Jobe Watson:rolleyes: Sorry had to put that one in.

[The_Gunny_Bomber]

Myers should def be in there

[Jono B]

Lovett, Jetta, Houli?

[yaco55]

- Lovett is fine on the run but struggles from a set play situation and is often guilty of chipping short sideways kicks over the head of his team mate.
- Myers has a raking long left foot which his team mates haven't used to advantage but he doesnt have much range YET with short kicks.
- Houli could potentially improve his kicking to the elite level but misses too many shots on goal on the run.

All the coaches rate Hurley as an elite kick, and it appears that way from watching him in 2 Under 18 games, but we have to see how he adjusts to the AFL.

[Colin D'Cops]

All the coaches rate Hurley as an elite kick...but we have to see how he adjusts to the AFL.

Agree with that.

[yaco55]

My list of players from the EFC that IMO have elite kicking skills ;

Courtenay Dempsey
Dustin Fletcher
Bachar Houli
Scott Lucas
Mark McVeigh
David Myers
Jay Neagle
Brent Prismall
Paddy Ryder
Matthew Lloyd

We are fairly much in agreement but I am unsure how you rate Neagle as an elite kick. Dempsey kicks tend to be too much up and under to be elite. I will reserve my opinion on Prismall until he plays next year.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

My list of players from the EFC that IMO have elite kicking skills ;

Courtenay Dempsey
Dustin Fletcher
Bachar Houli
Scott Lucas
Mark McVeigh
David Myers
Jay Neagle
Brent Prismall
Paddy Ryder
Matthew Lloyd

I wouldn't say Dempsey's an elite kick. Lovett definitely is.

[Colin D'Cops]

I wouldn't say Dempsey's an elite kick..

When he takes his time and thinks about where he's kicking it, he can nail it on anyones chest IMO. Lovely low drop punt motion.

[yaco55]

When he takes his time and thinks about where he's kicking it, he can nail it on anyones chest IMO. Lovely low drop punt motion.

The key to elite disposal is also elite decision making.

Dempseys decision making still needs refinement.

[hateitorlovett13]

Lovett's kicking is amazing. If you're going to say that Lloyd's is exceptional, which is clearly just from his goal kicking, then you cannot say that Lovett's is not.

By this I'm referring to Lloyd's tendancy to miss his target away from goals, as he often lobs it over the heads of leading players and seems to have poor skills away from goals. Lovett has excellent skills on the run, shooting at goals or to players, and his set shots are not poor enough to warrant a complete absence from this list.

If Lloyd is up there for goal kicking, Lovett should be up there for his on the run kicking.

[KaaN10]

Houli has a wonderful kick.

[yaco55]

Lovett's kicking is amazing. If you're going to say that Lloyd's is exceptional, which is clearly just from his goal kicking, then you cannot say that Lovett's is not.

By this I'm referring to Lloyd's tendancy to miss his target away from goals, as he often lobs it over the heads of leading players and seems to have poor skills away from goals. Lovett has excellent skills on the run, shooting at goals or to players, and his set shots are not poor enough to warrant a complete absence from this list.

If Lloyd is up there for goal kicking, Lovett should be up there for his on the run kicking.

Read my previous post !

My query with Lovett is his kicking from a standing start ( not goalkicking ) which often misses targets. Check some old videos.

Lovett is a far more effective kick on the run.

[yaco55]

Houli has a wonderful kick.

How good is his decision making.

You need to be a good decision maker to be an elite kick.

For example, Nash has a sweet kick but his decision making fails him.

[Smyth94]

One of my hobby horses is the poor kicking skills of AFL players.

In my opinion, EFC needs to aim for about 50% of their players to have elite skills to become a very good football team.

I have included a list of players on the Senior list ( I have not included 2008 draftees or rookie listed players ) who i believe have elite kicking skills.

I have been strict in my assessment and have not included Hurley because he has not yet played AFL football.

As an example, I am looking for a player who when breaking from the centre ( under some pressure ) can pinpoint a pass to a leading forward. Of course there are other exemples such as; spotting up a 50 or 60 metre pass from the backline ( ala Fletcher ), or the ability to consistently kick long goals from all sorts of angles ( ala Lucas ).

The players I assessed with elite kicking skills

- Fletcher
- Lloyd
- Lucas
- McVeigh
- Winderlich
- Ryder
- Reimers

Give me your opinion.

I pretty much agree with that list and also believe that with some refinement the following players can also make that list:

Hurley (doesn't need refinement, just needs to show it in the AFL)
Myers
Dempsey
Houli
Neagle (his set shots are supberb)

The problem is that three of the players in the OP's list are going to retire in the next few years so we need some players stepping up in the A+ kicking stakes.

[The Donners]

Houli has a wonderful kick.

How good is his decision making.

You need to be a good decision maker to be an elite kick.

For example, Nash has a sweet kick but his decision making fails him.

I have to agree with you both. I'm a huge fan of Houli's, I think he's in for a huge '09!

[dave_27]

Dempsey DOES NOT have elite kicking skills.

Need to see more of Pears but on what Ive seen so far his footskills are bloody clean.

Pears, Myers and Riemers have punishing footskills.

[Smyth94]

If you read the most recent training report on BBlitz it reports on Hurley already kicking 50-60m passes directly to the chests of players out of defence - honestly this kid's skills are unreal.

[eth-dog]

Neagle
Monfries
Jetta
Winderlich
Prismall
McVeigh
Lovett
Reimers
Nash
Lloyd
Myers
Lucas
Davey
Ryder
Fletcher
Houli

[yaco55]

Neagle
Monfries
Jetta
Winderlich
Prismall
McVeigh
Lovett
Reimers
Nash
Lloyd
Myers
Lucas
Davey
Ryder
Fletcher
Houli

You are a touch generous !

[Bombermania]

One name I would add and yes he is on the rookie list but Magin appears to be a very good kick, in the few games he has played I don't recall him missing any targets.

[ant555]

Dempsey DOES NOT have elite kicking skills.



Agree. On the run his kicking can be very patchy.

[B-Bomber]

Thats what happens when you try to kick at the same time as a sonic boom :D

[eth-dog]

You are a touch generous !
I am, aren't I

[bombersno1]

Myers
Houli
Reimers
Hurley (note, on U18 form)

Those would be the 4 I would say are elite, then a patch of players at A garde footskills including Lovett, Jetta, etc.

[The_Young_Gun]

Neagle has a very penetrating kick... I'd consider him as an elite kick.. His set shot is one of the best in the AFL, right up there with Lloyd, Bradshaw and Pavlic, though it hasn't really been huge a standout goal wise, mainly cause he's barely put many games together, but 2009 should be good for him...

[Colin D'Cops]

Reimers

I like Reimers as a player as most would know, but after many people in this thread saying he has elite skills, I just have to respond here.

On the run, kicking to the leading forwards, Kyle struggles with that concept. You would expect Myers, McVeigh & Houli to nail them for example, but Reimers for me didn't stand out in that regard. There were numerous times throughout the year where are turn-over would occur from his boot, but as a fan I bit my lip because he's still young and I know it takes time to adjust to AFL football. He should get better in that regard but at the moment, I wouldn't name him in the elite bracket by any stretch of the imagination.

[Lacey]

Dempsey DOES NOT have elite kicking skills.

Need to see more of Pears but on what Ive seen so far his footskills are bloody clean.

Pears, Myers and Riemers have punishing footskills.
agreed, Dempsey can kick a ball really well, but cant be called elite. same goes for Nashy. they can both kick some absolute gems, whether in the field of play or through the sticks. but decision making needs some refinement (Nash more than Dempsey though). only then would we even consider them being close to elite

as for Pears, he is exactly what we need in a midfielder. will take him as a defender though :P

Watching him reminded me of watching Scotty Pendlebury. it always seemed like he had ages to dispose the ball, even when he was under heavy pressure. very cool, calm and collected, and an excellent decision maker. watch him in '09

[The_Young_Gun]

Nash is probably our best kick... But is just shithouse under pressure... which takes him out of the elite list..

[Enki]

Based on comprehensive kicking skills (field, set shot, over a mark, short AND long, under pressure etc.) my list would be thusly:

Matthew Lloyd
Dustin Fletcher
Scott Lucas
Mark McVeigh
Paddy Ryder


Maybe Prismall but I'd like to wait and see when he starts to play for us and starts getting more attention than at Geelong. And Winderlich may have snuck in by now if he wasn't injured so much.

Of course once again I find my definition of the word "elite" is probably different to some on big footy. I believe we have a quite few youngsters who can reach elite but for different reasons are not quite there yet.

[SirJimi05]

Neagle
Monfries
Jetta
Winderlich
Prismall
McVeigh
Lovett
Reimers
Nash
Lloyd
Myers
Lucas
Davey
Ryder
Fletcher
Houli


Take the bolded players out and you will be closer to the mark.

Houli and Prismall are the best kicks on our list. Houli's kicking will be rated as highly as Luke Hodge once he gets his confidence up.

[yaco55]

Dont understimate Fletchers kicking skills.

You really appreciate his kicking skills if you have a vantage point behind the goals.

[hateitorlovett13]

Read my previous post !

My query with Lovett is his kicking from a standing start ( not goalkicking ) which often misses targets. Check some old videos.

Lovett is a far more effective kick on the run.

I think you miss my point.

If Lloyd is in there, then it must be for his set shot kicking, which is amazing. However, his kicking on the run is poor.

Lovett's set kicking, on the other hand, is not as good as his kicking on the run, and has much room for improvement, but is not poor by any means.

I'm saying if Lloyd is there purely for set shots, then Lovett should be there for his kicking on the run.

[Smyth94]

I like Reimers as a player as most would know, but after many people in this thread saying he has elite skills, I just have to respond here.

On the run, kicking to the leading forwards, Kyle struggles with that concept. You would expect Myers, McVeigh & Houli to nail them for example, but Reimers for me didn't stand out in that regard. There were numerous times throughout the year where are turn-over would occur from his boot, but as a fan I bit my lip because he's still young and I know it takes time to adjust to AFL football. He should get better in that regard but at the moment, I wouldn't name him in the elite bracket by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmmmm... that's definitely not the impression I got watching Reimers kick the ball this year.

His kicking on the run was a highlight

Of course he's going to stuff up here and there - who doesn't

I think you miss my point.

If Lloyd is in there, then it must be for his set shot kicking, which is amazing. However, his kicking on the run is poor.

Lovett's set kicking, on the other hand, is not as good as his kicking on the run, and has much room for improvement, but is not poor by any means.

I'm saying if Lloyd is there purely for set shots, then Lovett should be there for his kicking on the run.

Sorry - I can't tolerate that comment. Lloyd's kicking is beautiful, I don't know what you're playing at saying his field kicking is poor, he has a textbook fluent kicking style and normally always hits his targets.

[dave_27]

Sorry - I can't tolerate that comment. Lloyd's kicking is beautiful, I don't know what you're playing at saying his field kicking is poor, he has a textbook fluent kicking style and normally always hits his targets.

Spot on Smythy.

May I add Mal Michael had bloody great footskills. For a bloke who is mainly pigeon holed as a gorilla FB, his footskills were exceptional when he got it.

[yaco55]

I included Lucas as an elite kick because his kicking for goal outside the 50m arc from all angles is fantastic and his field kicking is usually reliable.

[yaco55]

Hmmmm... that's definitely not the impression I got watching Reimers kick the ball this year.

His kicking on the run was a highlight

Of course he's going to stuff up here and there - who doesn't



Sorry - I can't tolerate that comment. Lloyd's kicking is beautiful, I don't know what you're playing at saying his field kicking is poor, he has a textbook fluent kicking style and normally always hits his targets.

I based my assessment of Reimer's kicking skills on AFL games,and also from watching him at training sessions last July.

You can usually obtain a good guide of a players skill level at training.

[ant555]

I like Reimers as a player as most would know, but after many people in this thread saying he has elite skills, I just have to respond here.

On the run, kicking to the leading forwards, Kyle struggles with that concept. You would expect Myers, McVeigh & Houli to nail them for example, but Reimers for me didn't stand out in that regard. There were numerous times throughout the year where are turn-over would occur from his boot, but as a fan I bit my lip because he's still young and I know it takes time to adjust to AFL football. He should get better in that regard but at the moment, I wouldn't name him in the elite bracket by any stretch of the imagination.

I think you are reading way too much into it. There where a few times in the year where through lack of experience he did not really kick to the best spots in the forward line but he is generally a great kick and does hit targets.
You can not read mistakes made by kids with under 20 games of AFL expereince as not being elite. Lets face it the players you mentioned as guys who would nail them have made the same mistakes. Myers and Houli both had ordinary turnovers at various stages and i think that Reimers is actually a lot better than Houli disposal wise.
If you cant put Reimers in the elite bracket then you can not put Myers or Houli in either.

[ant555]

Hmmmm... that's definitely not the impression I got watching Reimers kick the ball this year.

His kicking on the run was a highlight

Of course he's going to stuff up here and there - who doesn't



Sorry - I can't tolerate that comment. Lloyd's kicking is beautiful, I don't know what you're playing at saying his field kicking is poor, he has a textbook fluent kicking style and normally always hits his targets.

I agree that Lloyd is a great kick but his style is not textbook. He does kick a lot of shots for goal with a slightly bent knee. Does not affect his kicking ability though.
I think his field kicking looks poor when he holds onto the ball for too long and then tries to hit impossible options. More of a decision making thing than poor disposal.

[Smyth94]

I agree that Lloyd is a great kick but his style is not textbook. He does kick a lot of shots for goal with a slightly bent knee. Does not affect his kicking ability though.
I think his field kicking looks poor when he holds onto the ball for too long and then tries to hit impossible options. More of a decision making thing than poor disposal.

Yeah agree there, I was probably trying to refer how his kicks seem to generally be quite straight whereas most left footers have that natural "hook" about them

[HFF_07]

I wouldnt put David Myers into the group of elite kickers; yet. he has all the attributes to get there, his decision making is one that lets him down, he tended to throw it onto the boot a few times this year when in traffic, and if we all want him to become a midfielder, like a few people on here want him to be, then he will never become an elite kick, because as stated, i feel that he throws it onto the boot.

One name that is in the same category is Jay Nash, has a superb action, tends to just kick it to the wrong spots alot of the time, and when he gets his decision making to an appropriate level, then we will see how damaging his kick can be.

Fletcher is actually our best player by disposal, and is better IMO, than the league average, he hits his target more times than he doesnt, and (from herlad sun superstats) hits his target by both hand and foot 82% of the time, which IMO is one of the very best in the league.

I feel stanton is not a very effective kick like a few people on here rate him, he is a bit like Cameron Bruce in that regard (rate him higher than what he is worth) he has good disposal efficiency, but the way people talk about him, should be a little higher.

just my bit.

(QUICK NOTE: GO TO GOOGLE. TYPE IN THE PLAYERS NAME AND SUPERSTATS, AND THERE WILL BE A LINK TO A PAGE ABOUT THAT PLAYER AND HIS SEASON FROM LAST, INCLUDING DISPOSALS, EFFICIENCY, UNCONTESTED/CONTESTED POSSESIONS, MARKS, TACKLES, ALOT OF INFORMATION PEOPLE ON HERE COULD USE, SO GO TO GOOGLE, AND TYPE IN, example "DUSTIN FLETCHER SUPERSTAT" AND IT WILL COME UP WITH A LINK LIKE THIS http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/960197.html IS LIKE THAT WITH AND AFL PLAYER, TRY IT WITH SOME OF THE OTHER PLAYERS)

[yaco55]

Based on comprehensive kicking skills (field, set shot, over a mark, short AND long, under pressure etc.) my list would be thusly:

Matthew Lloyd
Dustin Fletcher
Scott Lucas
Mark McVeigh
Paddy Ryder


Maybe Prismall but I'd like to wait and see when he starts to play for us and starts getting more attention than at Geelong. And Winderlich may have snuck in by now if he wasn't injured so much.

I

Of course once again I find my definition of the word "elite" is probably different to some on big footy. I believe we have a quite few youngsters who can reach elite but for different reasons are not quite there yet.

I agree with your thoughts about Prismall and Winderlich, although I included Winderlich in my list, because I have seen him play enough times.

I doubt that there could be much debate about what constitutes elite kicking.

Think of Tim Watson.

[HFF_07]

I agree with your thoughts about Prismall and Winderlich, although I included Winderlich in my list, because I have seen him play enough times.

I doubt that there could be much debate about what constitutes elite kicking.

Think of Tim Watson.

i wouldnt include him, he seems to be a bit up and under with anything over 40 metres, if you watched them closely enough, but that would of been a while ago cause he hasnt been on the park for a while now has he ;)

[yaco55]

I think you are reading way too much into it. There where a few times in the year where through lack of experience he did not really kick to the best spots in the forward line but he is generally a great kick and does hit targets.
You can not read mistakes made by kids with under 20 games of AFL expereince as not being elite. Lets face it the players you mentioned as guys who would nail them have made the same mistakes. Myers and Houli both had ordinary turnovers at various stages and i think that Reimers is actually a lot better than Houli disposal wise.
If you cant put Reimers in the elite bracket then you can not put Myers or Houli in either.

I agree with your thoughts about Reimers.

My only minor point of disagreement is that sometimes he misses handball options, ( which would be a better choice ), although this could be because he has confidence in his kicking.

[DoubleO7]

Q. With regards to Essendons playing style, wouldn't you guys prefer players with elite hand balling skills?

[Colin D'Cops]

If you cant put Reimers in the elite bracket then you can not put Myers or Houli in either.

From watching plenty of U/18 games like yourself ant then watching them in their first couple of seasons in the AFL, I think I can draw a line between a player or two in regards to skills. I definitely think Myers & Houli are both better kicks than Reimers, but Reimers's skills are by no means poor. Most probably above average.

[Smyth94]

From watching plenty of U/18 games like yourself ant then watching them in their first couple of seasons in the AFL, I think I can draw a line between a player or two in regards to skills. I definitely think Myers & Houli are both better kicks than Reimers, but Reimers's skills are by no means poor. Most probably above average.

Fair enough - although I vehemently disagree with your observations - from what has been shown at AFL level Reimers is ahead of Houli and Myers in the kicking stakes ATM.

[yaco55]

Fair enough - although I vehemently disagree with your observations - from what has been shown at AFL level Reimers is ahead of Houli and Myers in the kicking stakes ATM.

I believe that Myers has good kicking skills but hasn't shown himself to be elite YET.

[Smyth94]

I believe that Myers has good kicking skills but hasn't shown himself to be elite YET.

IMO Myers needs to work on his shorter kicking (<30m), when he gets genuine depth on his kicks they are normally precise (see: to Lucas v Hawthorn; and to Lloyd v Carlton)

[Colin D'Cops]

Fair enough - although I vehemently disagree with your observations - from what has been shown at AFL level Reimers is ahead of Houli and Myers in the kicking stakes ATM.

That's fair enough too, that's why we have a forum for Aussie Rules. There are many observations/opinions that can be made.

[yaco55]

IMO Myers needs to work on his shorter kicking (<30m), when he gets genuine depth on his kicks they are normally precise (see: to Lucas v Hawthorn; and to Lloyd v Carlton)

I agree 100% with your observation.

In saying that the forwards need to be smarter when Myers has the ball in his hands.

Two forwards should always be leading up and taking their defenders, whilst another forward should be running back so that Myers has 2 options.

This will create space if Myers plans to kick longer.

[ant555]

From watching plenty of U/18 games like yourself ant then watching them in their first couple of seasons in the AFL, I think I can draw a line between a player or two in regards to skills. I definitely think Myers & Houli are both better kicks than Reimers, but Reimers's skills are by no means poor. Most probably above average.

Would have been hard to watch Riemers play a lot of under 18 footy unless you lived in Perth.;) Not like he had much exposure before he came over here.
I diasgree. One of the early things that everyone who saw pre season training in Reimers first year commented on was how good and sharp his right foot kicking was. It commented on by everyone i spoke to.
I know what you are commenting on , the kicks that go into the forward line over players heads or to the opposition. They have nothing to do with his skills. They have more to do with inexperience, poor forward set up and average decision making on the run. Myers was just as guilty in this area in an number of games. Houli is ahrder to judge becasue he does not kick long very often.
The kid has great kicking skills .

[ant555]

Q. With regards to Essendons playing style, wouldn't you guys prefer players with elite hand balling skills?

We can hold onto the ball ok. What burnt us the most last year was trun overs coming out of half back.

[mick4]

I wouldnt put David Myers into the group of elite kickers; yet. he has all the attributes to get there, his decision making is one that lets him down, he tended to throw it onto the boot a few times this year when in traffic, and if we all want him to become a midfielder, like a few people on here want him to be, then he will never become an elite kick, because as stated, i feel that he throws it onto the boot.

One name that is in the same category is Jay Nash, has a superb action, tends to just kick it to the wrong spots alot of the time, and when he gets his decision making to an appropriate level, then we will see how damaging his kick can be.

Fletcher is actually our best player by disposal, and is better IMO, than the league average, he hits his target more times than he doesnt, and (from herlad sun superstats) hits his target by both hand and foot 82% of the time, which IMO is one of the very best in the league.

I feel stanton is not a very effective kick like a few people on here rate him, he is a bit like Cameron Bruce in that regard (rate him higher than what he is worth) he has good disposal efficiency, but the way people talk about him, should be a little higher.

just my bit.

(QUICK NOTE: GO TO GOOGLE. TYPE IN THE PLAYERS NAME AND SUPERSTATS, AND THERE WILL BE A LINK TO A PAGE ABOUT THAT PLAYER AND HIS SEASON FROM LAST, INCLUDING DISPOSALS, EFFICIENCY, UNCONTESTED/CONTESTED POSSESIONS, MARKS, TACKLES, ALOT OF INFORMATION PEOPLE ON HERE COULD USE, SO GO TO GOOGLE, AND TYPE IN, example "DUSTIN FLETCHER SUPERSTAT" AND IT WILL COME UP WITH A LINK LIKE THIS http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/960197.html IS LIKE THAT WITH AND AFL PLAYER, TRY IT WITH SOME OF THE OTHER PLAYERS)

I think that his kicking has improved from his first couple of seasons simply because he seems to taking time to compose himself before kicking rather than trying to kick the ball whilst running flat out, which highly difficult thing to do. His kicking over longer distances is very good IMO, its more his shorter kicking game that is not as go missing at time

[Colin D'Cops]

Would have been hard to watch Riemers play a lot of under 18 footy unless you lived in Perth.;)

I didn't watch a heap of Reimers's or Myers's time in the WAFL, just some clips on them in the round reviews, etc but I watched every game at the Champs when both where playing. Reimers was a half forward type and Myers was a HBF that was the sweeper for WA. I'm not like BNO1, when I comment, I mean it mate. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of my opinions on these young group of players, but they were my observations but I can understand where people are coming from.

[DoubleO7]

We can hold onto the ball ok. What burnt us the most last year was trun overs coming out of half back.
I understand.:thumbsu:

[yaco55]

I didn't watch a heap of Reimers's or Myers's time in the WAFL, just some clips on them in the round reviews, etc but I watched every game at the Champs when both where playing. Reimers was a half forward type and Myers was a HBF that was the sweeper for WA. I'm not like BNO1, when I comment, I mean it mate. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of my opinions on these young group of players, but they were my observations but I can understand where people are coming from.

I am touch confused as to where this thread is heading.

We are talking about AFL football and not the Under 18's.

Everybody talks about Hurley's elite kicking from his coaches at Northern Knights, to his Vic Metro Under 18's coach, to all the draft experts, recruiters and more recently Dodoro and Knights but it doesnt make him an elite kick at the AFL level YET.

[ant555]

I didn't watch a heap of Reimers's or Myers's time in the WAFL, just some clips on them in the round reviews, etc but I watched every game at the Champs when both where playing. Reimers was a half forward type and Myers was a HBF that was the sweeper for WA. I'm not like BNO1, when I comment, I mean it mate. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of my opinions on these young group of players, but they were my observations but I can understand where people are coming from.

I know what you comment on you think you mean and i do rate your judgment but remember this. Even the best recruiters only have a 70% succes rate and you are only 20 years old. You do not know everything despite the fact that you know more than most. I come acroos as being an arrogent prick a lot of the time too but i have always said that i am happy to be getting around 60 to 65% right.
You may not care less what others think about your observations but you have to remember you are never too old to learn. I push a lot of peoples opinions and rub them the wrong way simply to get at what angle they see things. makes it easier to go back and look at different games and pick up on things that may have been missed. I never appologise for it but it has helped me develop my footy knowledge along the way.
The fact that in the AFL both Reimers and Myers have a disposal eff of around 65% says that both of them have suffered similar problems early on.
As far as comparing them through the under 18 champs givne they played in different years in different roles you can not draw a direct comparison.The other thing was Reimers only played a couple of champ games in 2006 including one where he only had 4 disposals so it is a bit hard to be making serious judgmnets on that. The game where he had 15 disposals was in the wet against SA and he kicked at 70% eff that day. He did not play against Vic Metro in the last game..His under 16 champs where he averaged 19 possesions and kicked at 80% eff would have been a better line to look at.
For interest sake Myers playe three games in the 2007 champ series and his kicking eff was 70%. From what i have seen they have had similar rating all the way through bar the under 16 where Remiers was a touch higher.

[Colin D'Cops]

I am touch confused as to where this thread is heading.

We are talking about AFL football and not the Under 18's.

Aren't we talking about elite skills at the Essendon Football Club?

Taking into consideration their skills at U/18 level and a season or two in the AFL is all you can judge the players Ant555 & I were talking about on at the moment.

[Colin D'Cops]

You do not know everything despite the fact that you know more than most..

I most definitely do know I don't know everything. That's why I only open my mouth on the topic/boards that I have knowledge into. If I didn't have any knowledge on the topic on any particular board, I'd sit back and admire for the most part.

[Colin D'Cops]

Everybody talks about Hurley's elite kicking from his coaches at Northern Knights, to his Vic Metro Under 18's coach, to all the draft experts, recruiters and more recently Dodoro and Knights but it doesnt make him an elite kick at the AFL level YET.

Agree, that's why I didn't add Hurley to my list in my first post.

[yaco55]

My argument is that as a 'rule of thumb' a good kick in the juniors should translate to a good kick in the AFL.

Of course there are exceptions where good kicks in the juniors have struggled in the AFL and there are fewer exceptions of average kicks in the juniors suddenly becoming elite kicks in the AFL.

The one area that we haven't discussed in detail is the " hurt factor ' of a players foot skills.

We all know that even the best players turn the ball over from time to time, but how much hurt does their best kicks give to the opposition.

A player like Hodge has his share of clanger kicks but his effective kicks can kill the opposition.

This is why I have rated Tim Watson's kicking highly.

[Colin D'Cops]

The one area that we haven't discussed in detail is the " hurt factor ' of a players foot skills.
We all know that even the best players turn the ball over from time to time, but how much hurt does their best kicks give to the opposition.

Dempsey can hurt any team badly when he's not under the pump, so he'd have to be right up there in the 'hurt factor' stakes.

[yaco55]

Dempsey can hurt any team badly when he's not under the pump, so he'd have to be right up there in the 'hurt factor' stakes.

Dempsey's kicking is a work in progress.

He hurts teams with his reading of the play, ability to break lines and his fitness to run for 4 quarters ( when he finishes a game ).

[Slattery_20]

Dempsey's kicking is a work in progress.

He hurts teams with his reading of the play, ability to break lines and his fitness to run for 4 quarters ( when he finishes a game ).
LOL

How many minutes has he ever spent on the AFL field?

At the very least that should read "if he finishes a game"

[Slattery_20]

IMO Myers needs to work on his shorter kicking (<30m), when he gets genuine depth on his kicks they are normally precise (see: to Lucas v Hawthorn; and to Lloyd v Carlton)
If you ask me he seems to always be looking for the damaging long kick. Very much an "eyes up" type
Hard to call it a criticism after 5 games though

[yaco55]

If you ask me he seems to always be looking for the damaging long kick. Very much an "eyes up" type
Hard to call it a criticism after 5 games though

I agree he does prefer the long kick. but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is up to the players upfield to read his kick and Myers will be more damaging.

[azza_24]

McVeigh is the best kick in our team to a player on the lead IMO

[yaco55]

McVeigh is the best kick in our team to a player on the lead IMO

I would be confident with McVeigh, Winderlich or Reimers kicking to a leading forward.

[Kong]

Bump.

Right now I'd say these guys have top-shelf kicking skills:

Dyson (most of the time)
Winderlich
Pears
Hurley
Fletcher
Reimers (though prone to shank one at various stages)
Houli (see Reimers)

[lamaros]

Bump.

Right now I'd say these guys have top-shelf kicking skills:

Dyson (most of the time)
Winderlich
Pears
Hurley
Fletcher
Reimers (though prone to shank one at various stages)
Houli (see Reimers)

Not including Ryder? That's got to be an oversight.

[Kong]

No, I don't think Ryder's skills are top-notch.

They're reliable, but not oustanding, IMO.

[Smyth94]

No, I don't think Ryder's skills are top-notch.

They're reliable, but not oustanding, IMO.

Sorry Whomb, but that's an oversight - maybe because Ryder doesn't get enough of the ball but he has one of the better kicks for a big man you'll see.

[leng jai]

Ryder
Williams
Hurley
Fletcher
Hille (2008)
Winderlich
Monfries

[The Dustbin]

Jay Neagle. He can kick it long and straight, and can hit a moving target.

He just needs to play seniors, and get the ball!

[SirJimi05]

Whomb, Ryder is a brilliant kick of the football. Definitely elite skills.

[SirJimi05]

Jay Neagle. He can kick it long and straight, and can hit a moving target.

He just needs to play seniors, and get the ball!

Excellent pick up. Most people probably don't realise this.

[Kong]

I'm clearly in the minority, but I just don't think of him as having top-notch (and I keep using that word because I hate how overused the word 'elite' is) skills.

I don't think he's at the level of a Welsh, or even Stanton, but I'd put him at the 2nd level. He rarely produces a kick that completely misses the target, so perhaps I'm being unfair, but I just don't think he can split the field over 40-50 metres the way the likes of Fletcher, Winderlich, Hurley and co. can.

Having said that, he's probably on par with Pears, so perhaps I'd have the two of them just below the others.

[SirJimi05]

I'm clearly in the majority, but I just don't think of him as having top-notch (and I keep using that word because I hate how overused the word 'elite' is) skills.

I don't think he's at the level of a Welsh, or even Stanton, but I'd put him at the 2nd level. He rarely produces a kick that completely misses the target, so perhaps I'm being unfair, but I just don't think he can split the field over 40-50 metres the way the likes of Fletcher, Winderlich, Hurley and co. can.

Having said that, he's probably on par with Pears, so perhaps I'd have the two of them just below the others.

He has better penetration than Pears but i do agree that he doesn't kick as many long balls as some of the others. Still reckon he is elite though, always hits his targets and has a beautiful kicking action.

[yaco55]

Bump.

Right now I'd say these guys have top-shelf kicking skills:

Dyson (most of the time)
Winderlich
Pears
Hurley
Fletcher
Reimers (though prone to shank one at various stages)
Houli (see Reimers)

I would add Ryder and Neagle.

But unfortunately they dont get the ball often enough.

[Slattery_20]

IMHO Pears is amongst our very best kicks, with Winderlich etc.
Doesn't scrub many and he's under a lot of pressure a lot of the time.

I think our issues are more to do with execution and decision making under pressure than anything else. Guys like Dyson and Houli are nice kicks but they just make terrible decisions too often.

[Towno78]

Bump.

Right now I'd say these guys have top-shelf kicking skills:

Dyson (most of the time)
Winderlich
Pears
Hurley
Fletcher
Reimers (though prone to shank one at various stages)
Houli (see Reimers)

Surely Williams? Mcveigh must be there abouts.
And whilst Zaka has been disappointing in front of goals so far, I would have placed his field kicking in this category.
Either way, I'd say your point is there aren't many names on that list, and that's definitely a problem!

[daffo]

I don't think he's at the level of a Welsh, or even Stanton, but I'd put him at the 2nd level. He rarely produces a kick that completely misses the target, so perhaps I'm being unfair, but I just don't think he can split the field over 40-50 metres the way the likes of Fletcher, Winderlich, Hurley and co. can.


You can't be serious?? Welsh? He turns the ball over by foot at least twice a week.

I'm still a fan of Fletch's kicking skills and I'm a big believer in Houli's skills. I also think players such as Pears, Neagle, Winderlich, Zaka all have above average skills. What do we class as elite??? I would say top 10 in the AFL. I don't think we have anyone at that level.

[Slattery_20]

You can't be serious?? Welsh? He turns the ball over by foot at least twice a week.

I'm still a fan of Fletch's kicking skills and I'm a big believer in Houli's skills. I also think players such as Pears, Neagle, Winderlich, Zaka all have above average skills. What do we class as elite??? I would say top 10 in the AFL. I don't think we have anyone at that level.
I think he was saying "XXX is not as bad as Welsh"

[mark1881]

What's upsetting is we don't have anyone with the kicking skils of a Gilbee, Drummond, Hodge, Rich, Hill. That is, long, sharp and penetrating kicks. Lovett was close.

Remiers is there abouts, same with Houli if he didn't panick everytime he got the ball.

[Phat Toni]

Bump.

Right now I'd say these guys have top-shelf kicking skills:

Dyson (most of the time)
Winderlich
Pears
Hurley
Fletcher
Reimers (though prone to shank one at various stages)
Houli (see Reimers)

It's not just about having 'elite' skills and/or technique, it's about having composure to make the right decision. With that in mind I would defiantly take Houli out, he must have shares in HBA or something keeps sending out hospital passes. I would love to see T Slattery in the seniors, from what I have seen in NAB cup and the couple of VFL games I’ve seen, I quite like what I've seen from his decision making and kicking skills.

[Kong]

You can't be serious?? Welsh? He turns the ball over by foot at least twice a week.I think he was saying "XXX is not as bad as Welsh"Yep.

[AS9]

Ryder is the best kick in the team.

[mark1881]

Melksham looks like he's got pretty good foot skills.

[Towno78]

It's not just about having 'elite' skills and/or technique, it's about having composure to make the right decision. With that in mind I would defiantly take Houli out, he must have shares in HBA or something keeps sending out hospital passes. I would love to see T Slattery in the seniors, from what I have seen in NAB cup and the couple of VFL games I’ve seen, I quite like what I've seen from his decision making and kicking skills.
:thumbsu:

[bipolarbeaR]

Colyer, Travis - Takes the game on but seems nervous when kicking
Davey, Alwyn - Average/Good, can moonball it.
Dempsey, Courtenay - Loopy kick, good though
Dyson, Ricky - Penetrating left boot, kicks to good targets
Fletcher, Dustin - 55m target hitter
Gumbleton, Scott - Average kick, leans back when kicking a 25m pass
Hille, David - Reliable kick
Hocking, Heath - Good kick
Hooker, Cale - Decent kick, hesitates too much sometiimes
Houli, Bachar - Piercing kick, much better than his handballs
Howlett, Ben - Very good kick, from what I have seen, low drill pass into fwds
Hurley, Michael - Best kick in the team, elite on both feet
Jetta, Leroy - Good kick, poor decision maker.
Lonergan, Sam - Better handpasser, average kick
Lovett-Murray, Nathan - Good kick
McVeigh, Mark - Very good kick
Melksham, Jake - Great kick, good decision maker
Monfries, Angus - Average kick, very good at goal
Myers, David - Either amazing or terrible, no in betweens
Neagle, Jay - Very good
Pears, Tayte - Great kick, lacks penetration though, like Stanton
Prismall, Brent - Usually an excaptional kick
Reimers, Kyle - Strange kicking action, dips the ball onto his foot but is good.
Ryder, Patrick - Elite kick
Slattery, Henry - Reliable kick
Stanton, Brent - OK kick, lacks penetration
Still, Michael - Good kick for goal, not sure about his field kick
Watson, Jobe - Average kick, has improved.
Welsh, Andrew - Crab crab crab
Williams, Mark - Best kick for goal in the AFL
Winderlich, Jason - Very good kick
Zaharakis, David - Flat drill pass, brilliant into the forwards, needs to improve goal kicking.

[Skeeta Olly]

Pointed out by BPB.

There is a difference between an elite kick, a great kick and a good kick.

[Ben the Gooner]

Lol, Whomb, you missed the best two in the team: Ryder and Williams.

[Kong]

Fletch/Hurley/Winders > Ryder.

Williams is a fabuous set-shot, but I've seen him shank a few in general play.

[vast]

In my opinion Ryder is the best kick in our side, he very composed whether its
a pass, a goal on the run or set shot. His gets good distance and usually chooses the best option and executes it perfectly. He just needs to get more of the ball and Knights said.

[bipolarbeaR]

He managed a fair chunk of the ball last year when Hille went down.

[Slattery_20]

I'd love to be as bullish as BpB on our kicking. Unfortunately we're a poor kicking side.

H Slatts is OK if he's on his left. Very one-sided tho.
Hocking's not a great kick either - better than he was, but not good.
NLM scrubs quite a few.
Melksham has scrubbed about a third of the kicks he's taken. Action looks ok but just misses.
Howlett (like Melksham) has missed a few kicks in his short spell in the 1s.
Davey can kick 25m and not at goal. Not sure how he qualifies as average let alone 'average/good'.
Dunno about Paddy being 'elite'. As good as most ruckmen going around, but wouldn't be in the top 60 in the league... 'very good' IMHO.
And I think you vastly, vastly under-rate Pears. IMHO our best kick. Often spots up a 30m-50m target in traffic under pressure.
And i'd say the last thing Stanton lacks is penetration. Has a fair long boot on him - when he gets space on a flank he can often switch 50m or 55m with no probs - but makes a few mistakes routinely every week,

[russea]

I love hocking and dyson when they get onto there lefts great long kicks they've got:thumbsu: