View Full Version : Gilly in doubt for 1st Test
Just heard it on Channel 10, an elbow injury apparently.
Who would replace him if he wasn't fit?
No doubt it would be Brad Haddin, for no other reason than he comes from NSW and we all know how NSW-centric the selectors are.
If you wanted to be sensible you would give the gig to Darren Berry, who else has had as much experience keeping to the world's greatest ever spin bowler?
IF this is the case you would think that the selectors would go for either Berry or Seccombe, both are great gloveman.
But because of what Gilly has done for our game the selectors would probably go for the best batsmen who can keep a big. It isn't Haddin so maybe Ryan Campbell would be the next in line if that were the criteria.
bunsen burner
4 Nov 2002, 15:42
I reckon they will go with Campbell, with Clingeleffer being the smokie. No point in using Berry or Seccombe. They will never have a career for Australia, so it would be pointless.
bunsen burner
4 Nov 2002, 15:44
Just saw the news report. Would be surprised if Gilly didn't play.
Would suprise if Gilly doesn't play.
I really hope they go for Sean Clingeleffer if it Gilchrist can't get up for it though.
Between him, Haddin and Campbell and there are pro's and con's for all 3.
If you want the best keeper go for Seccombe.
If you want the best young keeper go for Clingeleffer.
If you want the best keeper batsman go for Haddin.
I wouldn't take Berry, I've never been overly impressed with his keeping. One thing that sticks in my head is two missed stumpings - one an absolute gift - in the shield match against NSW last summer. Incidently I heard Berry was very pi$$ed off when Haddin played in the Australian one-day side the summer before last.
If you want the worst keeper go for Campbell.
Originally posted by DaveW
If you want the best keeper go for Seccombe.
If you want the best young keeper go for Clingeleffer.
If you want the best keeper batsman go for Haddin.
Agree with the first two but Clingeleffer is a better batsmen then Haddin.
Scored many more runs than Brad last season and Haddin is very overrated IMO.
Originally posted by hourn
Agree with the first two but Clingeleffer is a better batsmen then Haddin.
Scored many more runs than Brad last season and Haddin is very overrated IMO.
Yeah probably not as much in it as I thought, Clingeleffer, averaging 40+, did have a better season with the bat than Haddin last season. Overall Haddin's first-class career average is in the low 30s, Clinge high 20s. I'd still rate Haddin the better bat - he's scored a lot more 50s.
Originally posted by DaveW
Yeah probably not as much in it as I thought, Clingeleffer, averaging 40+, did have a better season with the bat than Haddin last season. Overall Haddin's first-class career average is in the low 30s, Clinge high 20s. I'd still rate Haddin the better bat - he's scored a lot more 50s.
yer but that average in the 20's is probably mainly due to the fact he had a shocker in his first year (10 matches, 203 runs at 15.61, 21 ctchs 4 stpgs) which is probably expected to a certain degree as he was just 20 for that season, so he may have been put in a bit early and been abit overrawed.
GoEagles
4 Nov 2002, 17:42
I'd like to see either Seccombe or Campbell get the nod if Gilly isn't up to playing.
I know the selectors have given Campbell international duties before in the one day game, and he's more than handy with the bat.
EagleBlue
4 Nov 2002, 18:16
Berry for mine, if not then Seccombe.
Originally posted by DaveW
If you want the best keeper go for Seccombe.
If you want the best young keeper go for Clingeleffer.
If you want the best keeper batsman go for Haddin.
I wouldn't take Berry, I've never been overly impressed with his keeping. One thing that sticks in my head is two missed stumpings - one an absolute gift - in the shield match against NSW last summer. Incidently I heard Berry was very pi$$ed off when Haddin played in the Australian one-day side the summer before last.
If you want the worst keeper go for Campbell.
Are you serious or what???? Every keeper stuffs up now and then, Gilchrist is nowhere near the quality of keeper that D. Berry is. Can Gilchrist stand on the stumps to the medium pacers and do a as good a job as Berry? No. Gilly is a batsmen 1st then a keeper he has changed the game so lesser keepers will get a go because they can bat.
Ofcourse Berry was ****ed off but especially when looking at the 1 day team they will always go for a Batsmen who can keep rather than the other way around.
Haddin is a dud, between him and Manou for the worst keeper in 1st class cricket in Auz.
As Ryan Campbell was the last stand in for Gilly (if i'm not mistaken) you would think that he would be the replacement for this test match, highly unlikely as you would think Gilly would get over the elbow injury.
Clingeleffer should be the next main stay in the test arena, very good keeper and still improving, can handle the bat and is very young. Should be peaking just in time when Gilly retires.
bunsen burner
4 Nov 2002, 18:46
Berry is 33 and Seccombe is 31. Could not see the selectors going with either of these options. The selectors know the team is old and know that for the next few years they have to go for the younger players. Although both keepers are arguably the two best sate keepers, it makes more sense to blood a younger player.
Originally posted by bunsen burner
Berry is 33 and Seccombe is 31. Could not see the selectors going with either of these options. The selectors know the team is old and know that for the next few years they have to go for the younger players. Although both keepers are arguably the two best sate keepers, it makes more sense to blood a younger player.
They went for Lehmann though, so they've shown they dont just lok for the best potential. They're looking for who can perform now.
IMO that is Clingeleffer still, but in some others here they think it should go to either Seccombe or Berry.
Originally posted by Arch#11
Can Gilchrist stand on the stumps to the medium pacers and do a as good a job as Berry? No. Gilly is a batsmen 1st then a keeper he has changed the game so lesser keepers will get a go because they can bat.
.
standing up to the stumps to medium pacers proves time and time again to be the wrong option. we saw jon moss find the edge of mark waughs bat last weekend only to fly past berry, when had he been standing back like he should have, it would have been a dolly.
Originally posted by nicko18
standing up to the stumps to medium pacers proves time and time again to be the wrong option. we saw jon moss find the edge of mark waughs bat last weekend only to fly past berry, when had he been standing back like he should have, it would have been a dolly.
yep i'm with ya there, standing up to the keepers is a waste of time. Might get the odd stumping but your bound to miss a catch before you get it.
Originally posted by Arch#11
Are you serious or what???? Every keeper stuffs up now and then, Gilchrist is nowhere near the quality of keeper that D. Berry is. Can Gilchrist stand on the stumps to the medium pacers and do a as good a job as Berry? No. Gilly is a batsmen 1st then a keeper he has changed the game so lesser keepers will get a go because they can bat.
Ofcourse Berry was ****ed off but especially when looking at the 1 day team they will always go for a Batsmen who can keep rather than the other way around.
Haddin is a dud, between him and Manou for the worst keeper in 1st class cricket in Auz.
As Ryan Campbell was the last stand in for Gilly (if i'm not mistaken) you would think that he would be the replacement for this test match, highly unlikely as you would think Gilly would get over the elbow injury.
Clingeleffer should be the next main stay in the test arena, very good keeper and still improving, can handle the bat and is very young. Should be peaking just in time when Gilly retires.
I've never been thoroughly impressed with Berry's keeping in general and I cited an example of that. Berry is not in Seccombe's league. I rate Gilchrist higher than Berry.
I agree Haddin is not a good keeper, but he is an exciting batsman. (some cynical people say thats all that counts these days :))
Manou is an okay keeper, what really counts against him compared to the likes of Clingeleffer is his batting.
Campbell is a rubbish keeper, certainly doesn't help that he has a dickie knee. If it weren't for his batting he wouldn't be keeping for WA. And that's why he got into the one-day side - he's a keeper batsman. And those speaking about age should note that Campbell is 30. I'd be amazed if he was picked for the test side.
As a keeper myself I think that you create wickets indirectly by standing on the stumps.
You may not be able to get to a catch every now and then, as a keeper it is your responsibility to move your slips fieldsmen into the right place.
There is nothing better than a leg side stumping off a medium pace bowler.
Many times you creat wickets by making the batsmen un easy, they don't want to fully extend so they dont drag their feet, they have to come back inot their crease when they are used to batting out of their crease (I hate it when keepers do that to me) and the added bonus of being able to assault the batsmen with a verbal barrage and the umpire knowing no better.
Darren Berry is the best gloveman in Auz up at the junk, Seccombe the best all around keeper.
Keepers should be judged on their glove work 1st, then the batting is a bonus.
bunsen burner
4 Nov 2002, 19:52
Originally posted by hourn
They went for Lehmann though, so they've shown they dont just lok for the best potential. They're looking for who can perform now.
IMO that is Clingeleffer still, but in some others here they think it should go to either Seccombe or Berry. They're different scenarios though. Lehmann isn't filling in for 1 test, he has a chance to claim a genuine spot. He has also played 5 tests already and has been waiting in the wings. There is no chance that Seccombe or Berry will ever have a career for Australia, therefore it would be pointless giving them 1 test, when they could put someone else in who will probably still be around when Gilly retires.
bunsen burner
4 Nov 2002, 19:58
Originally posted by Arch#11
Keepers should be judged on their glove work 1st, then the batting is a bonus. That is bias from a keeper's perspective. There is a balance. You can have a guy who maybe a 10% better keeper than Gilly, but with a batting average than may be 45% worse. Doesn't take a triple heart bypass surgeon to work out which is the better option.
Gilly's keeping is good enough for test level. There maybe be keepers who are slightly better, but to throw away a guy with a 60 run batting average would be pure idiocy. Maybe if you were comparing Berry to Seccombe (and even Campbell and Clingeleffer) you wouldn't worry too much about their batting, but the likes of Gilly, Flower and Stewart tell a different story.
EagleBlue
4 Nov 2002, 20:48
Originally posted by Arch#11
Can Gilchrist stand on the stumps to the medium pacers and do a as good a job as Berry?
How many "medium pacers" do Australia have ???? I would say Berry would not stand up to any of McGrath, Lee,Bichel, Gillespie
Haddin is a dud, between him and Manou for the worst keeper in 1st class cricket in Auz.
I think youre overrating Shane Deitz there !!!!
As Ryan Campbell was the last stand in for Gilly (if i'm not mistaken) you would think that he would be the replacement for this test match, highly unlikely as you would think Gilly would get over the elbow injury.
Campbell was a replacement for a ODI. That means you would probably go for a batsman/keeper, rather than a test match where you need a keeper first/batsman second. Berry would probably get the nod marginally because of the Warne factor but Seccombe did tour England last year and the reserve keeper.
Clingeleffer should be the next main stay in the test arena, very good keeper and still improving, can handle the bat and is very young. Should be peaking just in time when Gilly retires.
Havent seen much of him but there are big wraps for him and his batting improved immensley last season.
Originally posted by Arch#11
As a keeper myself I think that you create wickets indirectly by standing on the stumps.
You may not be able to get to a catch every now and then, as a keeper it is your responsibility to move your slips fieldsmen into the right place.
There is nothing better than a leg side stumping off a medium pace bowler.
Many times you creat wickets by making the batsmen un easy, they don't want to fully extend so they dont drag their feet, they have to come back inot their crease when they are used to batting out of their crease (I hate it when keepers do that to me) and the added bonus of being able to assault the batsmen with a verbal barrage and the umpire knowing no better.
Darren Berry is the best gloveman in Auz up at the junk, Seccombe the best all around keeper.
Keepers should be judged on their glove work 1st, then the batting is a bonus.
well, as a medium pacer, i hate it when keepers stand up to my bowling. i have NEVER had a stumping, but i dont care to remember how many faint nicks i've got only to see it fumbled and dropped or race past for 4.
nowdays if our keeper decides to show off how good he thinks he is by standing up to the stumps, i wont bowl till he moves back.
and as a batter who stands a good 15cm outside his crease, i dont mind it at all if the keeper comes up, infact i love it. any tickle i manage i know will result in runs, no risk of being caught behind.
(dont think that i have it in for keepers though arch11, i have been used as a reserve keeper before, and there is no harder work than having to crouch and run into the stumps after every ball, i prefer lazy 2nd slip ;))
wagstaff
4 Nov 2002, 21:15
If Gilchrist doesn't come up, who the selectors will pick will be one of the more interesting choices in recent years. The fact that no suggestion of any sort has been given of who would replace Gilchrist suggests that they don't have a specific replacement in mind.
I heard David Hookes say on the radio tonight (obviously biased on this issue) that, since it would be a one-off and not a long-term investment, Berry should be chosen.
I would agree that in a situation like this, that you would have to err towards a keeper more then a batsman/keeper. For me it would be narrowed down to Seccombe and Berry as they are regarded as the best keepers going around Australia at the moment (even though I wasn't impressed with some of Seccombe's keeping in a domestic one-day earlier this season). Clingleffer seems to be shaping up as a long-term investment and I'm not sure he would be the right choice as a one-off Test replacement.
Considering it's at the Gabba, you would have to favour Seccombe.
Originally posted by Arch#11
There is nothing better than a leg side stumping off a medium pace bowler.
this is typical of the attidude of many keepers who stand up to the stumps. the longshot dream of a legside stumping.
IMO a lot of keepers stand up to the stumps for selfish reasons. it makes them look better, but does not help out the team
wagstaff
4 Nov 2002, 21:26
Originally posted by nicko18
this is typical of the attidude of many keepers who stand up to the stumps. the longshot dream of a legside stumping.
IMO a lot of keepers stand up to the stumps for selfish reasons. it makes them look better, but does not help out the team
Good point. That goes through my mind too whenever you see a keeper now do the almost routine 'stand up to the stumps to Ian Harvey-type' bowler. Sure, it may prevent the batsman from advancing down the wicket, but it means that leg-byes and thin nicks are more likely to evade the wicket-keeper.
And certainly, the leg-side stumping is a valid weapon in one-dayers, but there have been plenty of occasions where the attempted leg-side stumping merely leads to a wide, or even worse, the keeper missing it and going for a total of 5 wides.
I don't have any problem with keepers standing up to medium-pacers, but it is overrated and on the verge of being overdone.
bluechampion
5 Nov 2002, 08:48
You'd have to give Berry a go. He's a fine keeper and especially good at keeping to Warne. As it would be a one off, you wouldn't want to throw in a kid - what if they have a bad game and their confidence is affected? Berry deserves a single test for years of excellent keeping.
I do admit he lacks something as a batsman, but do we seriously think that should be a coinsideration against England? He'll never have to bat, as Hayden and Langer will be enjoying double century opening stands all summer long.
I mean if Phil Emery got to play a test why not Berry?
eagleskickass
5 Nov 2002, 20:53
Gilly is fine and fit to play:)
Nige_Bix
5 Nov 2002, 21:27
Haddin's always a chance - he's from NSW!
Interesting poser - one game fill-in v long term prospect - I'd go for Berry i think.
So who would get the nod if they chose a touring party now and they went for a second keeper?
BTW - Shane Dietz kept for SA in the Pura Cup and Manou in the ING - last season it would have been the other way around if tehy made a choice - in most games they both played!
goal_umpire
7 Nov 2002, 07:27
Gilly is right to play in the first test.
I wasn't saying that Gilly isn't a good keeper, playing in world cricket at the moment he is probably the best keeper but there are better glovemen in the Sheild Comp at the moment. Gilly is deffinitley a better bat and would play in the team even if he didnt keep.
Don't get me wrong Gilly is a gun, Berry is better.
I was commentating on who I thought was the better Glovemen not all around cricketer, that would be Gilly
With the way the Aussie team is batting at the moment you could afford to bring in a keeper that is not as able with the bat if Gilly ever became unavailable.
I can honestly say I only stand up on the stumps when I believe there is a chance of a stumping, the added pressure just ***$es of alot of batsmen, may not work for others. It is also where keepers are found out, if they aint got it at the stumps, they aint got it.