Select your best Ashes teams from past years

[Jascave]

This thread is about picking a best-ever Australian XI and also a best England side over the last 100 years of Ashes battles to take part in a one-off hypothetical Test match at Lord's.

Here's my teams:

ENGLAND

Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Geoffrey Boycott
Dr WG Grace (c)
Peter May
Ted Dexter
Ian Botham
Alan Knott (wk)
Jim Laker
Bob Willis
John Snow
Fred Trueman
Kevin Pietersen-12th man

AUSTRALIA

Bill Ponsford
Matthew Hayden
Sir Donald Bradman (c)
Allan Border
Greg Chappell
Steve Waugh
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Ray Lindwall
Glenn McGrath
Richie Benaud-12th man

[Team Mo']

No Ponting?

[RUNVS]

No Ponting?

You cant pick Ponting over S.Waugh. Waugh and Ponting have similar averages with the bat but people forget that before his back injury Steve Waugh was also a very handy bowler. Ponting on the other hand isnt a good bowler at all.

[The Reaper]

This thread is about picking a best-ever Australian XI and also a best England side over the last 100 years of Ashes battles to take part in a one-off hypothetical Test match at Lord's.

Here's my teams:

ENGLAND

Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Geoffrey Boycott
Dr WG Grace (c)
Peter May
Ted Dexter
Ian Botham
Alan Knott (wk)
Jim Laker
Bob Willis
John Snow
Fred Trueman
Kevin Pietersen-12th man

AUSTRALIA

Bill Ponsford
Matthew Hayden
Sir Donald Bradman (c)
Allan Border
Greg Chappell
Steve Waugh
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Ray Lindwall
Glenn McGrath
Richie Benaud-12th man

Hayden?

Has a substandard record over in England

also Lindwall would bat ahead of Warne

[Adelaide Hawk]

This thread is about picking a best-ever Australian XI and also a best England side over the last 100 years of Ashes battles to take part in a one-off hypothetical Test match at Lord's.

Here's my teams:

ENGLAND


Dr WG Grace (c)


Hate to tell you this, but Dr. Grace played his last Test in 1899, which is more than 100 years ago :)

[Glenno23]

You cant pick Ponting over S.Waugh. Waugh and Ponting have similar averages with the bat but people forget that before his back injury Steve Waugh was also a very handy bowler. Ponting on the other hand isnt a good bowler at all.

If you need S.Waugh to bowl after having Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall and Warne bowling, they are not doing their job

Ponting would be in for me. My team:

Simpson
Ponsford
Bradman (c)
Ponting
G.Chappell
Miller (vc)
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
Lillee
Alderman (being played in England he gets the gig)
McGrath

12th man: Benaud

[Howard Littlejohn]

Trumper? Probably for Border, certainly batting at 3 or 4.
And if you're picking Waugh partly as an all-rounder, why wouldn't you go Keith Miller? Otherwise, just pick the best batsman for the spot.

I'm not far off Glenno's selection, except Trumper for Ponting; and despite his record in
England, probably not Aldeerman.
I'd also have Healy ahead of Gilchrist, simply the best gloveman I've seen (even ahead of Marsh, who was more spectacular but that was partly because he dived for things Healy and Gilchrist got to on their feet).

Australia
Simpson (vc)
Ponsford
Trumper
Bradman (c)
G Chappell
Miller
Lindwall
Healy (w)
Warne
Lillee
Mc Grath
12th: Ponting

rest of the touring party (for a series):
Davidson, O'Reilly, Grout, Border, Woodfull, Alderman


England
Hobbs
Boycott
May (c)
Barrington
Dexter
Cowdrey (vc)
Knott (w)
Trueman
Laker
Tyson
Snow

Gooch, Botham, Larwood, Underwood

That England sides seems too 50s heavy. Grace would go in, if not for the 100 year limit.
edit: I expect that England lineup could change a bit depnding on who I've forgotten.

[Black Thunder]

if we are going on records in Ashes tests only then Ponting would be a 50/50 prospect.

Hayden wouldn't be in the frame with an average of 45. 45 in this day and age is not that crash hot. Greg Chappel also averaged only 45 v the Pom's...

I've not selected any pre WWI players with the exception of Jack Hobbs, although even he played post WWI.

The reason for this is mainly the distortion of bowling performances with the likes of George Lohmann (ave 13.01 in Ashes tests), JJ Ferris (14.25), Billy Barnes (15.54), Charlie Turner (16.53) having fairly outrageous bowling averages. It's also hard to determine where batsmen like Stanley Jackson (48.79), Rantijsinhi (44.95), Clem Hill (35.45), Andrew Shrewsbury (35.47), W G Grace (32.29) or Victor Trumper (32.79) stand in the scheme of things. So for convenience i have not considered pre WWI players (with Hobbs the exception as stated).

my teams with Ashes performances:

Australia

Arthur Morris (43 inns, 2080 runs @ 50.73, 8 100's)
Bill Lawry (51 inns, 2233 runs @ 48.54, 7 100's)
Don Bradman (63 inns, 5028 runs @ 89.78, 19 100's)
Allan Border (82 inns, 3548 runs @ 56.31, 8 100's)
Steve Waugh (73 inns, 3200 runs @ 58.18, 10 100's, 22 wkts @ 41.54, 1 5 w/i))
Stan McCabe (43 inns, 1931 runs @ 48.27, 4 100's)
Adam Gilchrist (28 inns, 1083 runs @ 45.12, 3 100's, 96 dismissals)
Keith Miller (49 inns, 1511 runs @ 33.57, 3 100's, 87 wkts @ 22.40, 3 5 w/i)
Dennis Lillee (167 wkts @ 21.00, 11 5 w/i)
Shane Warne (195 wkts @ 23.25, 11 5 w/i)
Glenn McGrath (157 wkts @ 20.92, 10 5 w/i)


England

Herb Sutcliff (46 inns, 2741 runs @ 66.85, 8 100's)
Jack Hobbs (71 inns, 3636 runs @ 54.26, 12 100's)
Len Hutton (49 inns, 2428 runs @ 56.45, 5 100's)
Ken Barrington (39 inns, 2111 runs @ 63.96, 5 100's)
Wally Hammond (58 inns, 2852 runs @ 51.85, 9 100's, 36 wkts @ 44.77, 1 5 w/i)
Maurice Leyland (34 inns, 1705 runs @ 56.83, 7 100's)
Allan Knott (57 inns, 1682 runs @ 32.98, 2 100's, 105 dismissals)
Ian Botham (59 inns, 1673 runs @ 29.35, 4 100's, 148 wkts @ 27.65, 9 5 w/i)
Fred Trueman (79 wkts @ 25.30, 5 5 w/i)
Bob Willis (128 wkts @ 26.14, 7 5 w/i)
Jim Laker (79 wkts @ 18.27, 5 5 w/i)

Possibly the hardest spot for Australia is the opening position with Justin Langer and Bill Ponsford a bit unlucky, while Keith Stackpole has an exceptional record against the Poms (over 50) despite a relatively modest overall average of 37.

a few other comments:

Bob Simpson despite averaging just over 50 in Ashes tests, only scored 2 centuries in 31 innings and his average is massively inflated by his 311. Also scored 5 ducks which is far too high a percantage for an opener.

Greg Matthews has a suprisingly great Ashes record with an average of 53 although this is boosted by 5 not outs in 16 innings. Bowling average is disastrous at over 90.

Sid Barnes and Eddie Paynter, although both averaging of 70 in Ashes i didn't feel had played enough. Especially Painter who's average is boosted by 4 not outs in 11 innings.

Terry Alderman very close to the team with 100 wkts at 21.17 in Ashes tests. Ray Lindwall similarly unlucky but given his bowling performances are on par with Keith Miller, and Miller offers far more with the bat, I went for Miller.

Alec Stewart's poor record against Australia (ave 29) means he is no use as a keeper-batsmen for England

Despite Ted Dexter's solid overall average of 47, his performances against Australia are pretty sub par averaging just under 40 and scoring just 2 tons in 35 innings. Also a similar story for Colin Cowdrey.

Ian Botham is forever the enigma of English cricket. His overall Ashes record, like his overall test record, is good but not great in the way it is for guys like Keith Miller or Imran Khan. But it's easy to forget the the last half of the 80's really doesn't do Botham justice. At one stage after 17 Ashes tests, his average with the bat was 32 and with the ball 22.

Anyway, if the two teams squared off I'd be backing Australia. England have more consistency in batting across their top six, however with Bradman in there it tilts the batting just in favour of Australia i think - although we are a bit too heavily reliant on the great man. England's entire top six averages over 50.

Bowling department Australia are far superior not just in the strongest XI's, but in terms of depth with guys like Alderman, Davidson, Thompson, Lindwall and O'Reilly on the outer of the team - all five would be shoe-in's for the English team based on Ashes performances.

The bowling stats are quite damning on England. 37 bowlers have taken 50 wickets in Ashes tests with Australia leading the way 23-14. But it's the cost of wickets that is the problem for England. 11 of those 37 have taken their 50 wickets at less than 25 wickets a piece - 10 of those 11 are Australia with only Jim Laker (18.27) to feature at the top of this list.

[Howard Littlejohn]

You make a good point regarding Simpson's lack of centuries, and I didn't even think of Arthur Morris. He goes in, Simpson out.

[CAS79]

For England

Hobbs
Suttcliffe
Hutton
Compton
Hammond
Barrington
knott
Alec Bedser
Willis
Laker
Trueman
12th: Botham
Of the two not mentioned yet here is why.


Bedser 236 wickets at @ 24.89 in 52 would have played more but WWII got in the way. With 15 5wI and 5 10WM. per matches played that on a par with the very best, a true match winner who was responsible for returning the Ashes to England for the first time after the war. He bowled at the invincibles when he was on rations after WWII.

Compton missed his best years to the war but even still averaged 50 trying to win games with risk to innings in 70 matches, 17 tons. Also won an FA cup winners medal with Arsenal. A just criticism is he could be inconsistent but for his efforts at setting up wins he's in my English team.

It is more than significant that all of us have Englands best team as Historic. Their best days have long passed and the 80s they beat us but where not the worlds strongest.

[nineteen eighty]

if we are going on records in Ashes tests only then Ponting would be a 50/50 prospect.

Hayden wouldn't be in the frame with an average of 45. 45 in this day and age is not that crash hot. Greg Chappel also averaged only 45 v the Pom's...

I've not selected any pre WWI players with the exception of Jack Hobbs, although even he played post WWI.

The reason for this is mainly the distortion of bowling performances with the likes of George Lohmann (ave 13.01 in Ashes tests), JJ Ferris (14.25), Billy Barnes (15.54), Charlie Turner (16.53) having fairly outrageous bowling averages. It's also hard to determine where batsmen like Stanley Jackson (48.79), Rantijsinhi (44.95), Clem Hill (35.45), Andrew Shrewsbury (35.47), W G Grace (32.29) or Victor Trumper (32.79) stand in the scheme of things. So for convenience i have not considered pre WWI players (with Hobbs the exception as stated).

my teams with Ashes performances:

Australia

Arthur Morris (43 inns, 2080 runs @ 50.73, 8 100's)
Bill Lawry (51 inns, 2233 runs @ 48.54, 7 100's)
Don Bradman (63 inns, 5028 runs @ 89.78, 19 100's)
Allan Border (82 inns, 3548 runs @ 56.31, 8 100's)
Steve Waugh (73 inns, 3200 runs @ 58.18, 10 100's, 22 wkts @ 41.54, 1 5 w/i))
Stan McCabe (43 inns, 1931 runs @ 48.27, 4 100's)
Adam Gilchrist (28 inns, 1083 runs @ 45.12, 3 100's, 96 dismissals)
Keith Miller (49 inns, 1511 runs @ 33.57, 3 100's, 87 wkts @ 22.40, 3 5 w/i)
Dennis Lillee (167 wkts @ 21.00, 11 5 w/i)
Shane Warne (195 wkts @ 23.25, 11 5 w/i)
Glenn McGrath (157 wkts @ 20.92, 10 5 w/i)


England

Herb Sutcliff (46 inns, 2741 runs @ 66.85, 8 100's)
Jack Hobbs (71 inns, 3636 runs @ 54.26, 12 100's)
Len Hutton (49 inns, 2428 runs @ 56.45, 5 100's)
Ken Barrington (39 inns, 2111 runs @ 63.96, 5 100's)
Wally Hammond (58 inns, 2852 runs @ 51.85, 9 100's, 36 wkts @ 44.77, 1 5 w/i)
Maurice Leyland (34 inns, 1705 runs @ 56.83, 7 100's)
Allan Knott (57 inns, 1682 runs @ 32.98, 2 100's, 105 dismissals)
Ian Botham (59 inns, 1673 runs @ 29.35, 4 100's, 148 wkts @ 27.65, 9 5 w/i)
Fred Trueman (79 wkts @ 25.30, 5 5 w/i)
Bob Willis (128 wkts @ 26.14, 7 5 w/i)
Jim Laker (79 wkts @ 18.27, 5 5 w/i)

Possibly the hardest spot for Australia is the opening position with Justin Langer and Bill Ponsford a bit unlucky, while Keith Stackpole has an exceptional record against the Poms (over 50) despite a relatively modest overall average of 37.

.....

Good post. Can't really argue with almost all of your selections re the Australian team. I don't have a lot of knowledge on English cricket so I'll stay out of that. The only swap I would probably make would be Gregory S Chappell in for Stan McCabe. Whilst Chappell's average against then poms may have marginally less than McCabe's, he was a masterful batsman and having him come in at 5 or 6 (personally I would have Waugh follow Greg at 6) bolsters an already strong batting lineup. I do like the look of the top 4 with Border coming in at 4.

[flash2]

Alderman has to be in there.

[Jimthegreat]

5 pick themselves....Bradman, Lillee, McGrath, Warne and Gilchrist

[murphy2bedabest]

5 pick themselves....Bradman, Lillee, McGrath, Warne and Gilchrist

That would almost do Bradman would bat all day, Gilly would make a quick fire 100 and Lillee and McGrath will get them early while Warney would clean them up.:thumbsu:

[courtjester]

M. Taylor (1989 style)
B. Ponsford
D. Bradman
A. Border
S. Waugh (1989 style)
K. Miller
A. Gilchrist
S. Warne
B. O' Reilly or D. Lillee (depending on wicket)
G. McGrath
T. Alderman

[Schism]

Australia:

Warne
McGrath

whoever.