View Full Version : What do we need to do to get back to #1
3 home odi series losses in a row, struggling in test cricket, what needs to be done?, why wasnt there ready replacements for Warne, McGrath, Gilly and co?
Because those players are once in a generation players we probably won't see another Warne for 15-20 years same goes for Gilly and Mcgrath we probably were not expecting all 3 to retire so close together and it hit us quite hard.
Not a lot to change be honest wait till we have our full playing list available from injury and then assess.
There is no shame in being beaten by a better side look at Ashes 2005 if we had mass culled the list after that loss as many experts predicted we should i mean ffs there was calls of Ponting being sacked the 2006 series might of ended differently.
Because those players are once in a generation players we probably won't see another Warne for 15-20 years same goes for Gilly and Mcgrath we probably were not expecting all 3 to retire so close together and it hit us quite hard.
Not a lot to change be honest wait till we have our full playing list available from injury and then assess.
There is no shame in being beaten by a better side look at Ashes 2005 if we had mass culled the list after that loss as many experts predicted we should i mean ffs there was calls of Ponting being sacked the 2006 series might of ended differently.
05 was different, it was great cricketers playing poorly, not ordinary players playing poorly. Do you really think with our players injured we are that much better a side, Lee and Clark arent that good.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
26 Jan 2009, 21:00
Mate, Warne and co are once in a generation players.
The problem here is simple. We have had too many injuries and we have been outplayed.
Stuart Clark was a massive blow coming into the test series, for whatever reason his absence was not given enough coverage which would have offered perspective to the post test series analysis. SA actually based their plans around Clark being the spearhead so that indicates how much the opposition rate him.
Brett Lee lost form which is hardly surprising considering he contracted Giardia, which is taxing F/O transmitted organism. If you get Giardia you are going to be weak for sometime after your body has recovered. Brett also was hampered by an injury in his foot. His form however was poor.
Mitchell Johnson was superb but his only been in test cricket for 1 year and is still relatively inexperienced.
Shaun Tait is coming back from a layoff and is going to have to build into his form.
Hilfenhaus is an emerging player.
These guys just cant come in and start dominating straight away. The positive is that in the test series we were in all 3 games and it took some pretty special performances to beat us.
We won the last dead rubber with 2 rookies in Bollinger and Mcdonald contributing 5 wickets between them which is 5 wickets we werent getting in the first 2 matchs.
Peter Siddle is another loss from the one day team, he was orignally selected in the squad.
Bryce McGain is another who is the best spinner in the country.
Andrew Symonds and Michael Clarke, along with Ponting, are probably the best 3 ODI batsmen in the country. Losing Symonds and Clarke was a massive blow.
Having 2 rookies opening the batting mean that we are going to fire one day and fail the next. The addition of Phil Jacques to the lineup will provide firepower and a consistent performance.
Nathan Bracken was also injured.
We have had an injury list that is mounting up. YOu can bring in one or 2 rookies as long as they are surronded by experienced players. Once you start having the majority of the batting lineup consisting of inexperienced playeds (at international level) like Warner, Marsh, David Hussey, Cameron White and James Hopes you are going to have games when they fire and look a million bucks and you are going to have games when they tank miserably.
Marsh and Warner will realise that hitting the ball in the air will not consistently work. They will realise that if you take 2 boundaries off the first 2 balls of the over you dont have to keep playing reckless shots in that over. Both of those 2 players fell to poor shots.
Brad Haddin let his side down today for an experienced player, but his performed well this summer. In the test series he counter-attacked at crucial times and while he didnt get massive scores in the last 2 games he did provide impetus at crucial times of the match.
SA may get a nice little surprise if we tour with a full strength squad because at full-strength i think we will push them very hard. They will now be the favourites in the return series and history has shown that SA do not like the favourites tag. Refer to the 2003 WC and the 2007 WC Semi-Final.
Faithful Hawk
26 Jan 2009, 21:34
Mate, Warne and co are once in a generation players.
The problem here is simple. We have had too many injuries and we have been outplayed.
Stuart Clark was a massive blow coming into the test series, for whatever reason his absence was not given enough coverage which would have offered perspective to the post test series analysis. SA actually based their plans around Clark being the spearhead so that indicates how much the opposition rate him.
Brett Lee lost form which is hardly surprising considering he contracted Giardia, which is taxing F/O transmitted organism. If you get Giardia you are going to be weak for sometime after your body has recovered. Brett also was hampered by an injury in his foot. His form however was poor.
Mitchell Johnson was superb but his only been in test cricket for 1 year and is still relatively inexperienced.
Shaun Tait is coming back from a layoff and is going to have to build into his form.
Hilfenhaus is an emerging player.
These guys just cant come in and start dominating straight away. The positive is that in the test series we were in all 3 games and it took some pretty special performances to beat us.
We won the last dead rubber with 2 rookies in Bollinger and Mcdonald contributing 5 wickets between them which is 5 wickets we werent getting in the first 2 matchs.
Peter Siddle is another loss from the one day team, he was orignally selected in the squad.
Bryce McGain is another who is the best spinner in the country.
Andrew Symonds and Michael Clarke, along with Ponting, are probably the best 3 ODI batsmen in the country. Losing Symonds and Clarke was a massive blow.
Having 2 rookies opening the batting mean that we are going to fire one day and fail the next. The addition of Phil Jacques to the lineup will provide firepower and a consistent performance.
Nathan Bracken was also injured.
We have had an injury list that is mounting up. YOu can bring in one or 2 rookies as long as they are surronded by experienced players. Once you start having the majority of the batting lineup consisting of inexperienced playeds (at international level) like Warner, Marsh, David Hussey, Cameron White and James Hopes you are going to have games when they fire and look a million bucks and you are going to have games when they tank miserably.
Marsh and Warner will realise that hitting the ball in the air will not consistently work. They will realise that if you take 2 boundaries off the first 2 balls of the over you dont have to keep playing reckless shots in that over. Both of those 2 players fell to poor shots.
Brad Haddin let his side down today for an experienced player, but his performed well this summer. In the test series he counter-attacked at crucial times and while he didnt get massive scores in the last 2 games he did provide impetus at crucial times of the match.
SA may get a nice little surprise if we tour with a full strength squad because at full-strength i think we will push them very hard. They will now be the favourites in the return series and history has shown that SA do not like the favourites tag. Refer to the 2003 WC and the 2007 WC Semi-Final.
Do you think the reason we are experiencing so many injuries at the present time, is because the depth is not there and the same players are having to play each form of the game. This seems to be even more a problem when they are also playing IPL on top of the current schedule.
Maybe more development needs to be put into developing players in the ilk of Warner who are only used for the shorter forms of the game.
themuddy#3
26 Jan 2009, 21:45
Bat in the middle order.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
26 Jan 2009, 21:45
No its just the way it is. I think the depth is there. The problem is that if you replace half the team with "inexperienced" but talented players then your performance will not be as consistent until these players get that experience. Sure SA had Duminy and he performed straight away but he had established players around him.
We are an inexperienced team, the depth is there but these guys just cant replace half the side and keep performing there will be a lag as these new players find their feet. Bringing in the odd new player to replace someone who is injured is a lot easier then replacing half a team.
There is a distinct difference. An inexperienced batting lineup may fire one day and then the next they may all get out to awful shots and look crap, as what happened today. That is part and parcel of the game.
Johnson#26
26 Jan 2009, 21:48
For a start, persist with Dave Warner.
themuddy#3
26 Jan 2009, 21:50
For a start, persist with Dave Warner.
Agreed, But Hussey's cant have the same amount of chances.
Trial Ronchi.
The Reaper
26 Jan 2009, 22:14
Don't bother with Ronchi
Not great as a keeper and unreliable with the bat
Paine would be a better option
Piss of one of the Husseys and replace with North
North has a cool head which is what we need in teh middle order at the moment
We also have to accept that it wil be two or three years before we can claim to be #1 again
Johnson#26
26 Jan 2009, 22:18
Oh, and ditch Haddin. Seems a nice bloke, but I don't know if he's able to stick it out for an innings and not play the shots of a headless chook, particularly when we're in trouble.
The Reaper
26 Jan 2009, 22:19
Oh, and ditch Haddin. Seems a nice bloke, but I don't know if he's able to stick it out for an innings and not play the shots of a headless chook, particularly when we're in trouble.
Paine is the best choice as keeper
What we should do is look around the country for some blokes with some mongrel and ticker (aka Langer) and give them a bat
themuddy#3
26 Jan 2009, 22:27
Paine is the best choice as keeper
What we should do is look around the country for some blokes with some mongrel and ticker (aka Langer) and give them a bat
take away Hayden, langer, Pidge and warnie we have a hard time intimidating the opposition.
The Reaper
26 Jan 2009, 22:30
take away Hayden, langer, Pidge and warnie we have a hard time intimidating the opposition.
im not talking about intimidation
Im talking about ticker
The blokes who will perform well when the chips are down
Think Collingwood last ashes series or Warne in 2005
Langer, Waugh, Border the batsmen who with their backs against the wall would fight to the bitter end
We need guys like that in the middle order
What we don't need is what we have at the moment where they try to slog their way out of trouble
That is why I am a strong advocate for North's selection
Bond,ShaneBond
26 Jan 2009, 22:56
For a start, persist with Dave Warner.
What makes him so special that so many seem to consider him a saviour? While a big hitting opener is a valid team structure in ODIs, for them to be truly useful they need other strings to their bow. Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Gayle all contribute with other skills which helps in two ways:
1)When they fail there is less pressure on them because they complete another role,
2)When they fail there is an extra batsman in the side to cover.
You can't afford a hit-and-miss player with a weak middle order. If Australia want to persist with him, they should come out and say they are playing him with a view to when they have a stronger side, and are willing to lose before then.
potatomasher
26 Jan 2009, 23:11
What makes him so special that so many seem to consider him a saviour? While a big hitting opener is a valid team structure in ODIs, for them to be truly useful they need other strings to their bow. Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Gayle all contribute with other skills which helps in two ways:
1)When they fail there is less pressure on them because they complete another role,
2)When they fail there is an extra batsman in the side to cover.
You can't afford a hit-and-miss player with a weak middle order. If Australia want to persist with him, they should come out and say they are playing him with a view to when they have a stronger side, and are willing to lose before then.
I strongly agree, Warner should be out. He might win a game off his own bat, but the problem is, if he doesn't win the game off his bat, he'll have minimal to no contribution to the team for that match. That's just a waste of a spot in the XI.
I reckon Haddin should open, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I think Haddin is being held back by his position in the team at the moment. He is a big-hitter, and one of the best ones in the country at that. Sometimes he might come in with an opportunity for a slog, but too often he is coming in just needing to stem the flow of wickets, and that's not really his game.
Secondly, while you are saying we shouldn't have a hit-and-miss player opening, I think the last thing we want is another Marsh at the top. If Shaun Marsh is going to play the anchor role, which I don't have a problem with, we'll need someone at the other end who is going to worry the opposition bowlers with aggression. Haddin might be hit-and-miss similarly to Warner, but I reckon he'll hit more often than Warner does, and if he misses, well, at least it's our keeper who's getting out, and not a specialist batsman.
Good post LtD - very true.
Jimthegreat
27 Jan 2009, 06:38
Do you think the reason we are experiencing so many injuries at the present time, is because the depth is not there and the same players are having to play each form of the game. This seems to be even more a problem when they are also playing IPL on top of the current schedule.
Maybe more development needs to be put into developing players in the ilk of Warner who are only used for the shorter forms of the game.Doesn't matter how good the next level is you can't bring so many in at once that are not experienced at that level. That takes time. Maybe good enough but until you adapt at that level consistency will always be an issue.
Depth is alot better than other countries just a matter though of playing at that level. Take 5 or 6 of the best out of SA and they would be smashed, not to mention the retirements.
As for the IPL before we critcise the players who here would knock back that type of money. You have one career lasting a few years. You do need the opportunity to set yourself up financially.
It's why the injured players are ahead of them, because they're better at that level at this point of time.
As for the OP, you don't replace Warne, McGrath, Gilly and Hayden no matter how much development you do. That with all the current injuries decimates a team.
Jimthegreat
27 Jan 2009, 06:49
What makes him so special that so many seem to consider him a saviour? While a big hitting opener is a valid team structure in ODIs, for them to be truly useful they need other strings to their bow. Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Gayle all contribute with other skills which helps in two ways:
1)When they fail there is less pressure on them because they complete another role,
2)When they fail there is an extra batsman in the side to cover.
You can't afford a hit-and-miss player with a weak middle order. If Australia want to persist with him, they should come out and say they are playing him with a view to when they have a stronger side, and are willing to lose before then.Gilly was a little hit and miss opening the batting in ODIs. Brilliant, scintillating but also made many low scores hitting against the new ball. Same with Jaisuryria from Sti Lanka. That's the nature of that type of batsman. Not that I compare Warner to Gilly but there's potential match-winner in ODI once he develops over time. May be in and out a few times, as 22yo's are, but IMO in time will be important at the top of the order.
People on here need to realise we're going through a trough and players will be inconsistent as they develop.
I'd place a question mark on every players position on the team, including Ponting (at the very least his standing as captain needs to be addressed).
They need to look at Haddin and figure out if it is worth persisting with him, you can't expect everyone to by Gilly....... but while he's leaked a few runs while keeping behind the stumps, there has also been questionable shot selection on his part while batting.
Don't be afraid to drop those who are not performing up to standard to state or suburban level if need be (#1 candidate = M.Hussey!). Promote those that are excelling in the domestic comps.
I'd like to see Ponting have a sit down chat and hopefully learn from AB, Taylor and Waugh - ways to be a more effective captain. Covering everything from building team confidence with a young squad, to setting accurate field placings and implementing bowling changes correctly.
jko'neal
27 Jan 2009, 08:16
We can start by stopping to rate 20/20 Shit's and Giggles Cricket so highly at both World and State level:thumbsu:
themuddy#3
27 Jan 2009, 10:18
Gilly was a little hit and miss opening the batting in ODIs. Brilliant, scintillating but also made many low scores hitting against the new ball. Same with Jaisuryria from Sti Lanka. That's the nature of that type of batsman. Not that I compare Warner to Gilly but there's potential match-winner in ODI once he develops over time. May be in and out a few times, as 22yo's are, but IMO in time will be important at the top of the order.
People on here need to realise we're going through a trough and players will be inconsistent as they develop.
Agreed, and we need some stability in the team, get consistent games into our top order, the top order is the least of our worries.
Middle order can chop and change but ATM Hussey is a real liabilty. You cannot afford to have a player take balls to set them selves, then fail.
By the time Hussey is getting back any form itll be time for him to retire. And ill middle order will go to shit again.
But look at it like this.
Gayle,
Sehwag,
Gilchrist,
Jaya,
Hayden (in his late career)
Big hitting openers have been sucessful, especially when they specialise as an opener.
Get games into Warner and he will bring success. I also think marsh plays better when he has free flowing runs at the other end eg. ponting, warner.
goalpie
27 Jan 2009, 10:18
M Hussey needs to be dropped to go back and find some form. His brother should be dropped as well and never brought back.
Ponting really is the only consistent performer who's strike rate fits one day cricket. Warner will probably join him with more experience and Marsh has been ok. The middle order has been a disgrace, especially the speed they have gone about it.
When we had a team full of world class batsmen Damien Martyn used to often annoy me, but we could really use him now.
Or Lehmann, someone who is good against spin and not just a 20/20 pace slogger.
We get to 2/100 after 15 then 6/200 after 40 against trundlers like Botha and Duminy its just not good enough from the middle order.
statsman74
27 Jan 2009, 10:45
I cant imagine people are talking about dropping either Hussey when the most obvious drops are Warner and White.
Warner is right now a 20/20 slogger that might one day develop into a 50/50 player - but he's got no rubber on the road, so to speak, and needs time to develop his technique and temperment. Someone else mentioned that he brings nothing else to the team aside from his batting, so basically we'll get a meaningful contribution from him once every 3 or 4 games - simply not enough. I'd prefer Hopes to open or someone like a Hughes to be tried.
Cameron White is not good enough to hold his spot as a batsman, and is not being used as a bowler. He's averaging 2 overs per match, and only 23 with the bat, just 20 when we lose. He's a downhill skiier that has failed in most opportunites to build an innings and rescue a top order collapse. His successes are generally 40's off 20 balls when the top order has set it up. I'd be looking more at North here, as he is a superior batsman and comparable bowler.
David Hussey concerns me, but at this stage I wouldnt drop him. He is showing signs of not taking the next step, but because his bowling is seemingly superior to Whites, and his success at state level, deserves more time. His bowling is definitely handy and cant be forgotten.
Mike Hussey - people need to realise it wasnt that long ago that he was carrying this team through the later overs. Perhaps the secret is moving him back to 6 as clean up man, as we know that works.
Haddin is lucky that there isnt a keeper that can bat as well as him and do it responsibily at the same time. There is no doubt he can play shots but the temperament is ordinary at times. I like Paine but I am not convinced that the upgrade as a gloveman compensates for the drop in batting quality.
Bond,ShaneBond
27 Jan 2009, 11:23
Gilly was a little hit and miss opening the batting in ODIs. Brilliant, scintillating but also made many low scores hitting against the new ball. Same with Jaisuryria from Sti Lanka. That's the nature of that type of batsman. Not that I compare Warner to Gilly but there's potential match-winner in ODI once he develops over time. May be in and out a few times, as 22yo's are, but IMO in time will be important at the top of the order.
People on here need to realise we're going through a trough and players will be inconsistent as they develop.
Read my post again. My point was that he needs another string to his bow so he can contribute when he fails, and so an extra batsman plays. If he can bowl 5 overs a match he will be more valuable' like Gayle or Jayasuriya or Gilchrist behind the stumps. If I was Warner I would do a lot of bowling practice.
balmainforever
27 Jan 2009, 11:55
It's quite simple.
Firstly the selectors have to pick a team to play One Day cricket, not T20 cricket.
There is only so many sloggers you can put in one team. There needs to be at least one batsmen who can bat for 30-40 overs. So if Warner or Ponting get going, a partnership can be created at scoring of 6 runs oper over.
This form of cricket needs good groundfielders, so TAIT CAN'T BE CARRIED IN THE TEAM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!
If the top order bats like they're supposed to, you can't carry Cam White at number 7. This spot needs to be given to a BOWLER who can bat (best case scenario would be Watson if he's fit). Currently no spinner in Australia is good enough to play One Dayers.
themuddy#3
27 Jan 2009, 12:09
Read my post again. My point was that he needs another string to his bow so he can contribute when he fails, and so an extra batsman plays. If he can bowl 5 overs a match he will be more valuable' like Gayle or Jayasuriya or Gilchrist behind the stumps. If I was Warner I would do a lot of bowling practice.
He is a gun in the field, that should be considered.
Bond,ShaneBond
27 Jan 2009, 12:21
He is a gun in the field, that should be considered.
It definitely helps, but being a gun fielder doesn't create room for an extra batsman. The guy has potential to be a match-winner, but you need to have the proper team structure around him, and he can help himself by developing his bowling.
MrNatural
27 Jan 2009, 13:01
I think we need to stop panicking straight away here
I still think its our bowling that is the major issue, especially in tests
I think we should scrap the idea of having these so called 'all rounders' in the team
Players like Hopes dont cut it for me
We have the option to use part timers to bowl (i.e D.Hussey, M Clarke)
Unless the player is performing at both bowling and batting.
I still feel Symonds is in our best 11 in ODIs.
We do need someone to steady us in the middle order
Please play HODGE FFS!
Stick with the youngsters at the top of the order!
My best 11 for ODIs:
Warner
Marsh
Ponting
Clarke
Hodge/Hussey/Hussey
Symonds(if fit, or North)
Haddin
Johnson
Siddle
Bracken
Clark (when fit.if not Tait or Hilf)
That attack looks far more potent. Part time bowling options in the middle order
If the top order fails, we have the likes of Hodge and co to steady the ship.And if need be, we have Symonds,Haddin and Johnno to slog at the end if were in a good possy
statsman74
27 Jan 2009, 15:32
I think Hodge can be left aside. Clearly he's out of favour, most likely because of a combination of age (wont be at the next 50/50 World Cup) and personality.
I still dont know how people are justifying Warner. He just doesnt have it. I'm not saying he wont develop into the player we need, but right now, being 1-10 in 75% of games isnt a good plan.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
27 Jan 2009, 15:37
I think Hopes is better suited up the order to be honest. I would have him in the team over Cameron White and David Hussey. Hussey is probably the more accomplished batsmen but from what i have seen in this series id take Hopes over him.
Bearing in mind though we have a few injuries and its probably better to just stick with this group of players until main players come back.
Id ideally like this one day side to line up against SA in a month or 2.
Jacques
Marsh
Ponting
Clarke
M Hussey
Hopes
Haddin
Johnson
Tait
McGain/Hilfenhaus
Bracken
Jacques would come in to replace Warner who can continue to develop his game at FC level. Warner is defintely good enough but Jacques i feel would offer more stability at the top order.
Clarke is an obvious inclusion. I really dont think Hopes should be classified as a 4th specialist bowler. His not good enough to perform that role. Once again however a fit Shane Watson would occupy his place.
numnumney
27 Jan 2009, 15:40
A new Captain would be a good start. Australia need a Captain that can LIFT the side, Ponting can't do that at all.
Australia need a Captain that will put the team BEFORE HIS OWN NEEDS!!!! :thumbsu:
Ponting show in India that his own selfish needs come before the team. :thumbsd:
[quote=themuddy#3;13538732]Oh yeah, that was really poor management on our behalf, clearly we should be able to replace the best spin bowler ever, the best pace bowler ever and the best keeper ever simultaneously. Not to mention two openers and a number four.
Man we really fcuked up our youth development hey?
:rolleyes:
Get used to losing mate, it'll happen.[/quote
Maybe a bad choice of words on my behalf. Warne, Gilly and McGrath were great players but that dosent mean we couldnt have good players ready to replace them. India have got it right being able to replace Ganguly with Yuvraj and Rohit Sharma waiting for Tendulkar to retire. Thats why the only way to go would be to have 3 separate sides for Test, ODI, and a specialist 20/20 side that way giving a lot more exposure to a lot more people.
themuddy#3
27 Jan 2009, 16:14
I think Hodge can be left aside. Clearly he's out of favour, most likely because of a combination of age (wont be at the next 50/50 World Cup) and personality.
I still dont know how people are justifying Warner. He just doesnt have it. I'm not saying he wont develop into the player we need, but right now, being 1-10 in 75% of games isnt a good plan.
FFS, the bloke has just a handful of games! he was consistently pulling off the miracle innings for NSW, just give the bloke a chance, sure if he was keeping watson (our best ODI opener) out of the team, yeah you would drop him, but who would you bring in ATM? Hughes?
Warner is a very exciting project, and coming into a dead rubber, i would find it nonsensocal to drop him for a less volatile player.
Australia is yet to reach 300+, that is very concerning in a series where we have batted first on flat tracks in every game. Warner can get us to 300, pretty much single handedly.
Ricketts
27 Jan 2009, 16:19
Having half our side out injured doesn't help.
themuddy#3
27 Jan 2009, 16:25
Having half our side out injured doesn't help.
your logic is deafening.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
27 Jan 2009, 16:27
^^^ Exactly, sure SA have performed admirably well on this tour. But lets be honest, we have had injuries go against us but in saying that SA can only play who is in front of them.
Reading some news sites people seem to think that SA are now number 1. Im not disputing their victory, im just asking whether some people may be getting ahead of themselves here. The cricket world seems to be in raptures at our downfall while silently in the background little snippets have appeared signalling the return of Clark, McGain and Jacques.
Adelaide Hawk
27 Jan 2009, 16:52
Yes, injuries to key bowlers haven't helped, but I also think a good start would be batsmen playing each ball on its' merits .. something we haven't seen all summer.
Wow, McGain. RSA are really scared.
davey_magik
27 Jan 2009, 17:21
They will now be the favourites in the return series and history has shown that SA do not like the favourites tag. Refer to the 2003 WC and the 2007 WC Semi-Final.
We were favourites for both games mate. The 2003 WC was hyped up because they were the hosts but they were not the favourites and we were heavy favourites in the 2007 WC, having not lost a game all tournament.
aussie1st
27 Jan 2009, 17:26
There were actually some doubts about us before the 2007 WC. We just lost to NZ 3-0 and our bowling struggled to defend big totals and I'm pretty sure we lost the Tri Series before that.
davey_magik
27 Jan 2009, 17:41
There were actually some doubts about us before the 2007 WC. We just lost to NZ 3-0 and our bowling struggled to defend big totals and I'm pretty sure we lost the Tri Series before that.
He's talking about the semi though. We steamrolled the competition all tournament and the semi was no different.
Jimthegreat
27 Jan 2009, 17:50
Read my post again. My point was that he needs another string to his bow so he can contribute when he fails, and so an extra batsman plays. If he can bowl 5 overs a match he will be more valuable' like Gayle or Jayasuriya or Gilchrist behind the stumps. If I was Warner I would do a lot of bowling practice.Happy for him to develop as a batsman. In the case of Gayle, Jayasuriya their prime job is to bat. If they couldn't bowl I'm 100% sure they'd be in the side still. It's not hard to tell by watching Warner that he has the talent. Maybe in and out of the side occasionally but I'm sure will establish himself. We're rebuilding and when you do that you persist, a be little more patient so you can, over time, develop some players and weed out the strugglers. That's the only way you find out over time if they can play. Sometimes they fire and we win, sometimes they don't and we lose. We have to get used to it, we're rebuilding.
BTW apparently Warner can bowl both a reasonable offie and leggie. Hope the paper had that right.
Jimthegreat
27 Jan 2009, 18:01
Wow, McGain. RSA are really scared.Be alot more pressure though than what SA been getting from other spinning options, and a leg spinner, which SA don't love all that much. Put he an Clark in a Test team (and Hilfenhaus maybe but that another argument not required here) and it's suddenly more difficult. Might be a bit harder making 414 or recovering from 7/198. Possibly the difference between a 1-2 loss and a 3-0 win possibly.
Johnny_Segment
27 Jan 2009, 18:52
David Hussey concerns me, but at this stage I wouldnt drop him. He is showing signs of not taking the next step, but because his bowling is seemingly superior to Whites, and his success at state level, deserves more time. His bowling is definitely handy and cant be forgotten.
He has played 9 games for 1 wicket @ 128 & 5.6 an over.
0/20 off 2 v West Indies Basseterre 4 Jul 2008 ODI
DNB v West Indies Basseterre 6 Jul 2008 ODI
DNB v Bangladesh Darwin 30 Aug 2008 ODI
DNB v Bangladesh Darwin 3 Sep 2008 ODI
1/16 off 4.5 v Bangladesh Darwin 6 Sep 2008 ODI
0/35 off 5 v South Africa Melbourne 16 Jan 2009
0/28 off 7 v South Africa Hobart 18 Jan 2009
DNB v South Africa Sydney 23 Jan 2009
0/29 off 4 v South Africa Adelaide 26 Jan 2009
What exactly has he shown the ability to do? He can't get you wickets or bowl 5-10 cheap quick overs.
I think in both the Test Team and the 1-Day Team we need a mindset shift.... we need to RELEARN how to build and graft an innings.
For the last 15 years we've been so dominate with such good players we could afford to go FULL-ON and if things didn't quite go ok we had the great players to pull us out.
Now without those GREAT players but still with good players we need to start playing test/ODI like other countries play them.
How batsmen especially... how many times during the the tests and the ODI have they thrown their wickets away??? I am specifically targetting the middle order here and our Captain who should be leading the way.
I can't recall the last time an Aussie made 100 in a ODI... I think Watson did in the WI early last year but apart from that none have come close.
He has played 9 games for 1 wicket @ 128 & 5.6 an over.
0/20 off 2 v West Indies Basseterre 4 Jul 2008 ODI
DNB v West Indies Basseterre 6 Jul 2008 ODI
DNB v Bangladesh Darwin 30 Aug 2008 ODI
DNB v Bangladesh Darwin 3 Sep 2008 ODI
1/16 off 4.5 v Bangladesh Darwin 6 Sep 2008 ODI
0/35 off 5 v South Africa Melbourne 16 Jan 2009
0/28 off 7 v South Africa Hobart 18 Jan 2009
DNB v South Africa Sydney 23 Jan 2009
0/29 off 4 v South Africa Adelaide 26 Jan 2009
What exactly has he shown the ability to do? He can't get you wickets or bowl 5-10 cheap quick overs.
And he showed in last years shield final that he struggles to score against quality bowling.
The Reaper
27 Jan 2009, 19:31
I think in both the Test Team and the 1-Day Team we need a mindset shift.... we need to RELEARN how to build and graft an innings.
For the last 15 years we've been so dominate with such good players we could afford to go FULL-ON and if things didn't quite go ok we had the great players to pull us out.
Now without those GREAT players but still with good players we need to start playing test/ODI like other countries play them.
How batsmen especially... how many times during the the tests and the ODI have they thrown their wickets away??? I am specifically targetting the middle order here and our Captain who should be leading the way.
I can't recall the last time an Aussie made 100 in a ODI... I think Watson did in the WI early last year but apart from that none have come close.
exactly
bring back some ticker
Langer, Waugh, Border etc
Even Paul Collingwood from the last Ashes series
Blokes who perform at their best when the chips are down and aren't afraid to play ugly
At the moment we have a bunch of middle order players trying to slog their way out of trouble
We're not the only country this happened to
England used to produce a lot of tough, competitive fighters yet about 20 years ago they stopped producing them
The problem I feel is that players see playing for Australia as a job and not as an honour
Bomber Bears
27 Jan 2009, 20:06
Brett Lee is a big loss in the one day arena. Only a fool/a few maniacal fans on this board would deny his bowling ability in this form of the game.
statsman74
27 Jan 2009, 22:17
He has played 9 games for 1 wicket @ 128 & 5.6 an over.
0/20 off 2 v West Indies Basseterre 4 Jul 2008 ODI
DNB v West Indies Basseterre 6 Jul 2008 ODI
DNB v Bangladesh Darwin 30 Aug 2008 ODI
DNB v Bangladesh Darwin 3 Sep 2008 ODI
1/16 off 4.5 v Bangladesh Darwin 6 Sep 2008 ODI
0/35 off 5 v South Africa Melbourne 16 Jan 2009
0/28 off 7 v South Africa Hobart 18 Jan 2009
DNB v South Africa Sydney 23 Jan 2009
0/29 off 4 v South Africa Adelaide 26 Jan 2009
What exactly has he shown the ability to do? He can't get you wickets or bowl 5-10 cheap quick overs.
It doesnt look as good as I thought it did, and perhaps I have FRC memories to form my opinion.
That said, he is certainly being used as a bowler more than White, which speaks volumes about what the leadership group think of Whites bowling.
For the record, While concedes more per over than Hussey, and at least a good chunk of Hussey's overs are against SAF which is quality opposition...5 of Whites 9 wickets (at 32 at 6.27 per over, at 50) are against the Bangers.
statsman74
27 Jan 2009, 22:24
FFS, the bloke has just a handful of games! he was consistently pulling off the miracle innings for NSW, just give the bloke a chance, sure if he was keeping watson (our best ODI opener) out of the team, yeah you would drop him, but who would you bring in ATM? Hughes?
Warner is a very exciting project, and coming into a dead rubber, i would find it nonsensocal to drop him for a less volatile player.
Australia is yet to reach 300+, that is very concerning in a series where we have batted first on flat tracks in every game. Warner can get us to 300, pretty much single handedly.
You've nailed my exact point. He has ONLY played a handful of games. He's simply not ready. Sure he can slog, and in the 20/20 format that works because he only needs to bat for 10 overs.
But in 50/50 cricket, you need technique and temperment. Best case scenario is that he comes off...but what about the other 75% of games when he doesnt?
Yes, its a dead rubber so there isnt a lot to be lost by playing him. But why not go with Hughes who looks a better overall prospect? Or open with Hopes and bring in a better batsman at 6?
If he's good enough Warners time will come.
^^^ Exactly, sure SA have performed admirably well on this tour. But lets be honest, we have had injuries go against us but in saying that SA can only play who is in front of them.
Reading some news sites people seem to think that SA are now number 1. Im not disputing their victory, im just asking whether some people may be getting ahead of themselves here. The cricket world seems to be in raptures at our downfall while silently in the background little snippets have appeared signalling the return of Clark, McGain and Jacques.
Read in the herald sun that we need to win this ODI to reamin No. 1. So i don;t kno how we get back to No. 1 when we already are No. 1?
Be alot more pressure though than what SA been getting from other spinning options, and a leg spinner, which SA don't love all that much. Put he an Clark in a Test team (and Hilfenhaus maybe but that another argument not required here) and it's suddenly more difficult. Might be a bit harder making 414 or recovering from 7/198. Possibly the difference between a 1-2 loss and a 3-0 win possibly.
That's what ive said when talking to mates, it took a near world record run chase and a once in a life tim innings from Steyn to knock us off. Full credit to SA for winning the series but if sides won't to rely on brillant performances like that to beat us every time then go ahead.
Although Aussie cricket is not at its best and most powerful it is still good cricket team. As for the ODI's wait till we get back Clarke, Lee, Symonds, Watson some very handy players their.
themuddy#3
28 Jan 2009, 15:45
You've nailed my exact point. He has ONLY played a handful of games. He's simply not ready. Sure he can slog, and in the 20/20 format that works because he only needs to bat for 10 overs.
But in 50/50 cricket, you need technique and temperment. Best case scenario is that he comes off...but what about the other 75% of games when he doesnt?
Yes, its a dead rubber so there isnt a lot to be lost by playing him. But why not go with Hughes who looks a better overall prospect? Or open with Hopes and bring in a better batsman at 6?
If he's good enough Warners time will come.
I cant see any clear flaw in Warner's technique.
He is not a slogger, he is a good batsmen with a slogger's temperament.
If you are saying that Warner doesnt have enough experience yo ucould hardly bring in Hughes.
And a bit off topic, do you think hopes is a better option to open than Hussey or Haddin?
And a bit off topic, do you think hopes is a better option to open than Hussey or Haddin?
No!!! watching hopes bat is painful.:o your not ian healy are you?
First of all, we need to get rid of this obsession with all rounders. Plain and simple, besides a fit Watson, and a sober Symonds, there is no other international standard all rounder, most certainly in the test arena, and the selectors should just forget about having one.
The One day team is full of mediocre all-rounders, and we are failing miserably. Hussey=average bat, average bowler, same with hopes except a slightly better bat. Now why the fudge are we picking Cameron White if he isn't even bowling. Makes no sense. Might as well get someone else in the side. Well Clarke comes back in for one of them, if symonds or Watson doesn't come back ,then we must find another suitable middle order batsman.
Bowling in this series has been mediocre. RSA have bowled us out twice, and got 9 and 8 wickets in the other two games. We have a record of 7,5,7 and 2, which isn't good enough. Bracken is our only decent bowler atm, Tait is okay when fit, fresh and on-song, which is like a perfect storm tbh, but likewise very rare. Clark isn't going to solve our one day crisis cause even before his injury, he wasn't a regular in that team, but will go a long way to at least healing some of our gaping wounds in tests. Johnson, good test bowler, rubbish ODI bowler, Hilfenhaus has really dissapointed me, and Siddle is too spasmodic atm, but is a defininte prospect.
And Spin, don't even get me started. Surely under Warne's influence, at least one good spinner should of been waiting to come through...
Haddin is running out of lives as well
TLDR: We are one batsman short in the middle order, a good quick bowler, and obviously a spinner are required. A more consistent wicketkeeper wouldnt go astray either.
The fast bowling I think will be mended over time, same with our batting. I don't see the spin bowling component being remedied any time soon however, and we have seen this series just how useful a good spinner can be, and Warne has shown us the beauty of a great spinner in the past.
Mate, Warne and co are once in a generation players.
The problem here is simple. We have had too many injuries and we have been outplayed.
Stuart Clark was a massive blow coming into the test series, for whatever reason his absence was not given enough coverage which would have offered perspective to the post test series analysis. SA actually based their plans around Clark being the spearhead so that indicates how much the opposition rate him.
Brett Lee lost form which is hardly surprising considering he contracted Giardia, which is taxing F/O transmitted organism. If you get Giardia you are going to be weak for sometime after your body has recovered. Brett also was hampered by an injury in his foot. His form however was poor.
Mitchell Johnson was superb but his only been in test cricket for 1 year and is still relatively inexperienced.
Shaun Tait is coming back from a layoff and is going to have to build into his form.
Hilfenhaus is an emerging player.
These guys just cant come in and start dominating straight away. The positive is that in the test series we were in all 3 games and it took some pretty special performances to beat us.
We won the last dead rubber with 2 rookies in Bollinger and Mcdonald contributing 5 wickets between them which is 5 wickets we werent getting in the first 2 matchs.
Peter Siddle is another loss from the one day team, he was orignally selected in the squad.
Bryce McGain is another who is the best spinner in the country.
Andrew Symonds and Michael Clarke, along with Ponting, are probably the best 3 ODI batsmen in the country. Losing Symonds and Clarke was a massive blow.
Having 2 rookies opening the batting mean that we are going to fire one day and fail the next. The addition of Phil Jacques to the lineup will provide firepower and a consistent performance.
Nathan Bracken was also injured.
We have had an injury list that is mounting up. YOu can bring in one or 2 rookies as long as they are surronded by experienced players. Once you start having the majority of the batting lineup consisting of inexperienced playeds (at international level) like Warner, Marsh, David Hussey, Cameron White and James Hopes you are going to have games when they fire and look a million bucks and you are going to have games when they tank miserably.
Marsh and Warner will realise that hitting the ball in the air will not consistently work. They will realise that if you take 2 boundaries off the first 2 balls of the over you dont have to keep playing reckless shots in that over. Both of those 2 players fell to poor shots.
Brad Haddin let his side down today for an experienced player, but his performed well this summer. In the test series he counter-attacked at crucial times and while he didnt get massive scores in the last 2 games he did provide impetus at crucial times of the match.
SA may get a nice little surprise if we tour with a full strength squad because at full-strength i think we will push them very hard. They will now be the favourites in the return series and history has shown that SA do not like the favourites tag. Refer to the 2003 WC and the 2007 WC Semi-Final.
HAHA... Haddin experienced ODI batsmen, Hopes not... lol... dont watch much ODI cricket obviously. I rate hopes a better bat than Haddin (ATM), Haddin has thrown his wicket away too much, White does not know how to get a single and rebuidl, and Hussey (D) bats for himself. On the bowling front, we dont have a choice with the bowlers, Lee/Bracken/Clark are all injured, so we dont have a choice with the rookies bowling, we know that Tait will never be a line and length bowler. despite what we want him to be, we have choice with our batting line up. Marsh is going to be a superb opener for many years to come. Warner. I am undecided on, has all the shots, but not the temperament. we need a player like a Klinger at 5, who can rotate the strike, The two Vics in there just arent doing the job, i feel we meed to take a risk, and play a player like a Luke Pomersbach. he is still youngish (23/24) has all the shots, has runs on the board, and will be a better long term placement in the Aussie middle order.
any way. feel free to criticise or what ever.
aussie1st
28 Jan 2009, 19:02
What we are missing with our bowlers apart from Bracken is the ability to put it on that awkard line and length like what McGrath use to do and what Steyn has been doing this series. Siddle probably is our best bet for this since he has good control, speed and a bit of swing.
Clark just doesn't seem to have the variation or street smart for the ODI game as when a team wants to attack him they usually suceed.
Hilfy has been alright, hes not the type of bowler that is going to rip a team apart but neither is Bracken. His control hasn't been the best and he could start trying the cross seam to stop the swing which will cause more doubts in the batsmen mind than right now where he just swings it away so the batters can just play for that. He did show good signs leading up to his wicket where he dropped his length back and started bowling slower balls.
HAHA... Haddin experienced ODI batsmen, Hopes not... lol... dont watch much ODI cricket obviously. I rate hopes a better bat than Haddin (ATM), Haddin has thrown his wicket away too much, White does not know how to get a single and rebuidl, and Hussey (D) bats for himself. On the bowling front, we dont have a choice with the bowlers, Lee/Bracken/Clark are all injured, so we dont have a choice with the rookies bowling, we know that Tait will never be a line and length bowler. despite what we want him to be, we have choice with our batting line up. Marsh is going to be a superb opener for many years to come. Warner. I am undecided on, has all the shots, but not the temperament. we need a player like a Klinger at 5, who can rotate the strike, The two Vics in there just arent doing the job, i feel we meed to take a risk, and play a player like a Luke Pomersbach. he is still youngish (23/24) has all the shots, has runs on the board, and will be a better long term placement in the Aussie middle order.
any way. feel free to criticise or what ever.
I like your thinking with Pomersbach, i think he would be a perfect addition to the ODI side, if not him then maybe a Rob Quiney or a George Bailey. We definantly need someone who can keep up the run rate through those middle overs.
aussie1st
28 Jan 2009, 19:15
Pomersbach is a good talent but no way ready for the ODI arena. Picking a guy averaging 20 and not even in the WA 1st 11 would really push us into desperate territory. When we get Symonds back we will have a guy that can lift the run rate through the middle stages.
Quiney could be handy at number 7, can't go any worse than White has.
The Reaper
28 Jan 2009, 19:28
I like your thinking with Pomersbach, i think he would be a perfect addition to the ODI side, if not him then maybe a Rob Quiney or a George Bailey. We definantly need someone who can keep up the run rate through those middle overs.
Pomersbach should get a game for WA first
And it is not as if WA are exactly winning at the moment
We don't need a fast scorer or big hitter
We need some of the less flashy players with ticker
Pomersbach should get a game for WA first
And it is not as if WA are exactly winning at the moment
We don't need a fast scorer or big hitter
We need some of the less flashy players with ticker
I think we have that in Marsh, MHussey and Clarke, what we need is blokes to score quickly around them.
The Reaper
28 Jan 2009, 19:37
I think we have that in Marsh, MHussey and Clarke, what we need is blokes to score quickly around them.
like White and Dussey?
We need to bat out 50 overs and only be 4 or 5 wickets down when it comes to the 40 over mark
like White and Dussey?
We need to bat out 50 overs and only be 4 or 5 wickets down when it comes to the 40 over mark
Were finding out very quickly that White and DHussey arent the answer. I do agree we need to bat the 50 overs but then id also rather to be 9/251 at the end of an innings then 4/250
The Reaper
28 Jan 2009, 19:47
Were finding out very quickly that White and DHussey arent the answer. I do agree we need to bat the 50 overs but then id also rather to be 9/251 at the end of an innings then 4/250
Australia's success in the past has come down to having wickets in hand at the start of the 40 over mark.
Just based on this series we are taking the batting power play at this point.
I would much rather by 4/180 at this point than the 9/196 we were in on Australia day
Australia's success in the past has come down to having wickets in hand at the start of the 40 over mark.
Just based on this series we are taking the batting power play at this point.
I would much rather by 4/180 at this point than the 9/196 we were in on Australia day
Maybe so, but i dont think the current crop of middle order players have the ability to capitalise on a start like that. The first 30 overs of our innings havent been that bad, its been the last 20 that we seem to get stuck. If anything its certainly showing how much we relied on Symonds for the past few years.
The Reaper
28 Jan 2009, 20:00
Maybe so, but i dont think the current crop of middle order players have the ability to capitalise on a start like that. The first 30 overs of our innings havent been that bad, its been the last 20 that we seem to get stuck. If anything its certainly showing how much we relied on Symonds for the past few years.
Do you think we could move Warner to the middle order?
and open with Haddin and Marsh?
Do you think we could move Warner to the middle order?
and open with Haddin and Marsh?
You probably could. Its always amazed me why Haddins never really been used as an opener. Ive seen him do it successfully for NSW in the past.
Bond,ShaneBond
28 Jan 2009, 20:46
You probably could. Its always amazed me why Haddins never really been used as an opener. Ive seen him do it successfully for NSW in the past.
If Haddin opens then at least it won't look as bad when he goes out slogging. One pace player, if they are going to play him they might as well use him when the field is in so he can go over the top.
And to those who are looking to Pomersbach, things surely aren't that desperate. One boozy headcase is on the way out, no need to bring in another.
themuddy#3
28 Jan 2009, 21:03
No!!! watching hopes bat is painful.:o your not ian healy are you?
I agree, some of his innings have been terrible, but when put next to the rest of the middle order he looks ok.
And no, i am not Ian Healy.(just thought id clear that up)
I like your thinking with Pomersbach, i think he would be a perfect addition to the ODI side, if not him then maybe a Rob Quiney or a George Bailey. We definantly need someone who can keep up the run rate through those middle overs.
He is so far from Australian selection its not funny, can't get a game for WA he only avg's 20 in list A at strike rate of 66.
Pomersbach is a good talent but no way ready for the ODI arena. Picking a guy averaging 20 and not even in the WA 1st 11 would really push us into desperate territory.
Agreed.
robbo75
29 Jan 2009, 18:51
I strongly agree, Warner should be out. He might win a game off his own bat, but the problem is, if he doesn't win the game off his bat, he'll have minimal to no contribution to the team for that match. That's just a waste of a spot in the XI.
I reckon Haddin should open, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I think Haddin is being held back by his position in the team at the moment. He is a big-hitter, and one of the best ones in the country at that. Sometimes he might come in with an opportunity for a slog, but too often he is coming in just needing to stem the flow of wickets, and that's not really his game.
Secondly, while you are saying we shouldn't have a hit-and-miss player opening, I think the last thing we want is another Marsh at the top. If Shaun Marsh is going to play the anchor role, which I don't have a problem with, we'll need someone at the other end who is going to worry the opposition bowlers with aggression. Haddin might be hit-and-miss similarly to Warner, but I reckon he'll hit more often than Warner does, and if he misses, well, at least it's our keeper who's getting out, and not a specialist batsman.
I disagree with that. Warner hasn't been too bad so far and deserves to be given more time to prove himself. He's also pretty decent in the field. The argumentation you use for excluding him could be used for all the specialist batsmen who don't bowl which is bollocks in IMHO - if they don't get a score they don't contribute. How about if he saves runs in the field and takes that catches that come is way. Is more than can be said about Haddin so far this summer.
robbo75
29 Jan 2009, 18:55
And to those who are looking to Pomersbach, things surely aren't that desperate. One boozy headcase is on the way out, no need to bring in another.
That's a bit harsh.....just remember that Ponting was a similar boozy headcase some years back. Things and people can change. Pomersbach is a class player and at his best will definitely push for selection.
courtjester
29 Jan 2009, 19:18
Were finding out very quickly that White and DHussey arent the answer. I do agree we need to bat the 50 overs but then id also rather to be 9/251 at the end of an innings then 4/250
Hodge....
Hodge....
He has to be one of the most unluckiest cricketers in Aus, hes never actually done anything wrong while representing us, as his international stats show.
But i think now we really need to be looking at the next generation at least in the shorter forms.
Bond,ShaneBond
29 Jan 2009, 20:56
That's a bit harsh.....just remember that Ponting was a similar boozy headcase some years back. Things and people can change. Pomersbach is a class player and at his best will definitely push for selection.
Maybe, but at the moment he clearly is nowhere near his best and does not even deserve to be mentioned on this thread, let alone by the selectors.
He has to be one of the most unluckiest cricketers in Aus, hes never actually done anything wrong while representing us, as his international stats show.
But i think now we really need to be looking at the next generation at least in the shorter forms.
India 2007 one day tour was terrible.
Just a few points:
Haddin, over time, will not be Australia's keeper, throws his wicket away, way to easily.
I have been thinking that Hodge, before injury; may have come back into the fray, at the expense of a DHussey/White. As he is a proven performer.
Look at what Luke Pomersbach is doing this year, not over his career, you pick a player on what they ARE doing, not what they have done, 5th highest runscorer, 2 hundreds to date,
Have a feeling that DHussey will not make it at the highest level, seems to be too worried about losing his wicket, than even trying to turn the strike over,
Cam White: See above:
People seem to forget what Stuart Clark did in the one day game, he is a superb bowler, some people seem to forget that the bloke can bowl, him and Peter Siddle are in effect the same player, just Clark does more with the ball.
Am hoping that the Australian selectors stop picking gap fill players like DHussey and CWhite. they are not the right players to pick, go for the future.
The 747
30 Jan 2009, 15:41
People seem to forget what Stuart Clark did in the one day game, he is a superb bowler, some people seem to forget that the bloke can bowl, him and Peter Siddle are in effect the same player, just Clark does more with the ball.
:confused: Clark does more with the ball? They are essentially the same player?
Bracken is essentially the same bowler as MJ then.
The Reaper
30 Jan 2009, 17:24
J
People seem to forget what Stuart Clark did in the one day game, he is a superb bowler, some people seem to forget that the bloke can bowl, him and Peter Siddle are in effect the same player, just Clark does more with the ball.
Not much?
You seem to forget that he was not in our best ODI XI
He has not being in our best ODI XI
His One Day record is quite average
Clark's never cut it in ODIs.
As for Dussey and White, they deserved to be next in line at the start of the series (no-one was criticising their selection at the time), it's a shame White hasn't cut it - even if he had done an Albie Morkel once it would've been good to see, given he's supposed to be a big boundary hitter. Is still young but has had a disappointing series when he could've grasped his chances.
Dussey will probably get more time unless Roy comes back, his habit of not converting starts is worrying.
aussie1st
30 Jan 2009, 20:11
They both deserved their chances no doubt but this series has shown that they probably aren't up to it. Dussey has had 4 chances now to actually save Australia but he continues to throw his wicket away. He also doesn't seem to be scoring at the same rate that he does for Victoria.
krisholio14
30 Jan 2009, 20:14
You need to be patient.
Simple as that.
pieman123
30 Jan 2009, 21:22
i would prefer white over dussey tbh atleast he can clear the rope and can play a m.morkel role late in the innings like he did in the 20/20 at the gabba
The 747
31 Jan 2009, 13:43
They both deserved their chances no doubt but this series has shown that they probably aren't up to it. Dussey has had 4 chances now to actually save Australia but he continues to throw his wicket away. He also doesn't seem to be scoring at the same rate that he does for Victoria.
White is still very young and will play a lot more matches for Australia in the future I suspect. But right now, he blasts a few sixes in a hurricane innings at the death every now and then - when the pressure is on him to contribute as a genuine batsman he does not do it. However he will hopefully get better, he is good batsman that needs to get used to the pressure of international cricket.
David Hussey, hmmm I don't know about him. You are right he deserved his chance but he might have blown it. Maybe just a domestic bully.
Problem is I don't see who is demanding selection in that type of role in domestic cricket. And please nobody say Marcus North, you want a middle order of Clarke, North, Hussey? Not enough acceleration there.
Golden Duck
31 Jan 2009, 14:53
How about opening with Marsh and Hughes, with Warner moving into the lower middle order in place of David Hussey to play the pinch hitter when the late power play comes to fall. Australia badly need a aggressor in the middle order; M. Hussey, D. Hussey, White, and Clarke have all proved to be nurdlers of the ball knocking off the odd single, and with all of them following each other in the batting lineup we are getting behind on the run rate required (as shown in all five games played against South Africa where Australia has dug themselfs into a hole, too deep to escape from). We need a batsman to play the Symonds role, not caring about their own wicket or playing for themselfs, but being brave enough to take the attack to the opposition. Warner is that man, with Hughes providing that consistant platform of which to launch from.
aussie1st
31 Jan 2009, 15:03
If Symonds comes back in which I suspect he will then there is Dussey replacement. Bailey could be an option showed fight in the PM11 match and he can lift the rate. Ferguson the other one going great guns this season and scores at a very good strike rate.
Warner could well work down the order but I like him at the top where he can get us off to the flying starts. Hes the type of player that you want to give as much time as possible to make an impact and since he is an opener what bettre way to make the most of the time.
Separate Test and ODI captains, and further splitting of personnel?
How about opening with Marsh and Hughes, with Warner moving into the lower middle order in place of David Hussey to play the pinch hitter when the late power play comes to fall. Australia badly need a aggressor in the middle order; M. Hussey, D. Hussey, White, and Clarke have all proved to be nurdlers of the ball knocking off the odd single, and with all of them following each other in the batting lineup we are getting behind on the run rate required (as shown in all five games played against South Africa where Australia has dug themselfs into a hole, too deep to escape from). We need a batsman to play the Symonds role, not caring about their own wicket or playing for themselfs, but being brave enough to take the attack to the opposition. Warner is that man, with Hughes providing that consistant platform of which to launch from.
agreed too much of a liability as an opener, should be saved and used when we take batting power play late in the innings. Ie. lose a wicket 35-45 overs, put Warner in and take the power play.
Two years from the World Cup is not really a bad time to shake up your one day team, win or loss v. New Zealand, I would expect some changes after this series. I wouldn't expect Cameron White, David Hussey and Hopes to figure too highly in the selectors minds after this summer. Traditionally a lost series put a lot of pressure on the losing captain, Ponting will be under more pressure.
The Reaper
1 Feb 2009, 17:44
If Symonds comes back in which I suspect he will then there is Dussey replacement. Bailey could be an option showed fight in the PM11 match and he can lift the rate. Ferguson the other one going great guns this season and scores at a very good strike rate.
Warner could well work down the order but I like him at the top where he can get us off to the flying starts. Hes the type of player that you want to give as much time as possible to make an impact and since he is an opener what bettre way to make the most of the time.
why Symonds?
QLD would be considering dropping him surely
:confused: Clark does more with the ball? They are essentially the same player?
Bracken is essentially the same bowler as MJ then.
Not much?
You seem to forget that he was not in our best ODI XI
He has not being in our best ODI XI
His One Day record is quite average
Hm. Clark hits the seam, uses the seam, swings it. Siddle does not (at this point in time) do as much with the ball as S.Clark.
Oh, MJ and Bracken are not, I mean NOT the same bowler, if you actually watch cricket, Bracken is Australis smartest bowler, probably our best too.
As for the ODI side, Warner will not make it until he realises that he cannot hit every ball for six, I would think that Hughes could come into the team and do a very good job for the Aussie side, I have been calling for Hughes to come in for over 12 months now, and finally, I think the selectors are listening :D
next target -> Tim Paine ;)
What i think our teams should be:
Test: 1.P.Jacgues, 2.P.Hughes, 3.R.Ponting(c), 4.M.Hussey, 5.S.Katich, 6.M.Clarke, 7.T.Paine(wk), 8.M.Johnson, 9.B.Lee/S.Clark, 10.J.Krejza, 11.P.Siddle 12th N.Bracken
ODI: 1.S.Marsh, B.Haddin, 3.R.Ponting(c), 4.M.Clarke, 5.A.Symonds/S.Watson, 6.M.Hussey, 7.A.Noffke, 8.N.Bracken, 9.B.Lee/B.Hilfenhaus, 10.D.Cullen, 11.S.Tait 12th R.Quiney
20/20: 1.S.Marsh, 2.D.Warner, 3.M.Clarke(c), 4.R.Quiney, 5.L.Pomersbach/G.Bailey, 6.C.White, 7.L.Ronchi, 8.A.Heal, 9.N.Bracken, 10. S.Magoffin, 11.S.Tait 12th. B.Hilfenhaus
aussie1st
1 Feb 2009, 18:15
why Symonds?
QLD would be considering dropping him surely
His ODI form has been outstanding for Australia. Like him or hate him, we are missing his big hitting from no 5 and his experience.
The Reaper
1 Feb 2009, 18:25
His ODI form has been outstanding for Australia. Like him or hate him, we are missing his big hitting from no 5 and his experience.
he is 33
Hasn't played an ODI for 6 months
His form is in tatters
He won't be around for the world cup
Why bother?
The Reaper
1 Feb 2009, 18:26
What i think our teams should be:
Test: 1.P.Jacgues, 2.P.Hughes, 3.R.Ponting(c), 4.M.Hussey, 5.S.Katich, 6.M.Clarke, 7.T.Paine(wk), 8.M.Johnson, 9.B.Lee/S.Clark, 10.J.Krejza, 11.P.Siddle 12th N.Bracken
ODI: 1.S.Marsh, B.Haddin, 3.R.Ponting(c), 4.M.Clarke, 5.A.Symonds/S.Watson, 6.M.Hussey, 7.A.Noffke, 8.N.Bracken, 9.B.Lee/B.Hilfenhaus, 10.D.Cullen, 11.S.Tait 12th R.Quiney
20/20: 1.S.Marsh, 2.D.Warner, 3.M.Clarke(c), 4.R.Quiney, 5.L.Pomersbach/G.Bailey, 6.C.White, 7.L.Ronchi, 8.A.Heal, 9.N.Bracken, 10. S.Magoffin, 11.S.Tait 12th. B.Hilfenhaus
I wonder about Goffers in the Twenty20
aussie1st
1 Feb 2009, 18:31
he is 33
Hasn't played an ODI for 6 months
His form is in tatters
He won't be around for the world cup
Why bother?
If he can make the WC and he hasn't said he can't then I would stick with him.
The Reaper
1 Feb 2009, 18:34
If he can make the WC and he hasn't said he can't then I would stick with him.
it might not be up to him
I doubt his ability to be in our best XI at 35/36
I feel Symonds is already on the way out and it is time to say good bye and thank him for his services
roostersgal4eva
1 Feb 2009, 22:27
For starters lets get rid these bit players who are jack of all trades and masters at none - they add nothing to the team
Secondly it would be nice to stop screwing with our fast bowlers heads by rotating them in and out of the side too much and it would be nice to see them being bowl for more than 3 overs at a time
I feel that the selectors are living in the past and we are alowing players to be complacent....... there is no accontablitly anymore
I also believe most batsman are more interested in IPL money then performing for their country... if im right then bite the bullet, turf them out and get some players in who are hungry
roostersgal4eva
1 Feb 2009, 22:30
what i think our teams should be:
Test: 1.p.jacgues, 2.p.hughes, 3.r.ponting(c), 4.m.hussey, 5.s.katich, 6.m.clarke, 7.t.paine(wk), 8.m.johnson, 9.b.lee/s.clark, 10.j.krejza, 11.p.siddle 12th n.bracken
odi: 1.s.marsh, b.haddin, 3.r.ponting(c), 4.m.clarke, 5.a.symonds/s.watson, 6.m.hussey, 7.a.noffke, 8.n.bracken, 9.b.lee/b.hilfenhaus, 10.d.cullen, 11.s.tait 12th r.quiney
20/20: 1.s.marsh, 2.d.warner, 3.m.clarke(c), 4.r.quiney, 5.l.pomersbach/g.bailey, 6.c.white, 7.l.ronchi, 8.a.heal, 9.n.bracken, 10. S.magoffin, 11.s.tait 12th. B.hilfenhaus
nail hammer head!