View Full Version : Is Sam Lonergan now officially our best youngster?
kelvin_sheedy
28 Feb 2009, 13:24
The kid just seems to be getting better and better and always does the right thing.
Tough as nails, puts his head over the ball and doesn't seem to waste a possession.
Has he moved ahead of every other <22 player?
ghostdog
28 Feb 2009, 13:34
The kid just seems to be getting better and better and always does the right thing.
Tough as nails, puts his head over the ball and doesn't seem to waste a possession.
Has he moved ahead of every other <22 player?
I don't know that 'official' would ever be the case... a B&F might be the only thing to confirm that, or a Brownlow.
I agree with you on his toughness at the ball though. Lonergun could play his Round 1 today as though we were five rounds in. He's ready to go and it's a credit to him and the trainers.
Ludwig van Bertstare
28 Feb 2009, 14:41
Yes.
warney7
28 Feb 2009, 15:02
What I love most about this guy is that he is becoming so good, and noone outside of Essendon seems to have noticed.
The way he works into space and spins around players before finding a target 40m away is remarkable for a guy who should only get better.
monfries_monster
28 Feb 2009, 15:12
Very much up there with the best youngster I think. Thought he was nearly our best last night, and is emerging with all the attributes of a quality midfielder, and best of all he can find it and use it. His evasive running and ability to shrug tackles around the ball was very good last night.
Hopefully he can improve even more to be a player that other clubs did not think he would be and just an added bonus to what other youngsters we have coming through.
I would probably prefer Ryder.
Lance Uppercut
28 Feb 2009, 15:31
I think he is. He's certainly the best performed. He's an out and out gun with a massive future
Yes. I have spoken. :cool:
bomber69
28 Feb 2009, 16:28
My boy:D. Definately the hardest worker of all the young blokes.
Sigmund
28 Feb 2009, 18:43
Yes. I have spoken. :cool:
:D..
Shane Hird
28 Feb 2009, 19:28
Yes. He's on top of the list when it comes to rating our young players.
Looking like he might become a 200 gamer for us. Has the aggression and the footy brain.
I don't think it's humanely possible to not love Sam Lonergan. :D
windyhill
1 Mar 2009, 00:05
Fantastic to see J.Johnno`s number go to a bloke like Sammy, similar work ethic.
Longy413
1 Mar 2009, 03:03
Ryder has him covered x100
bipolarbeaR
1 Mar 2009, 07:18
Ryder has him covered x100
Not that he actually ever does anything except take marks, it's about time we stop going on about this kid till he does something I believe.
kelvin_sheedy
1 Mar 2009, 07:35
Ryder has him covered x100
In reality yes, in the world of bigfooty no.
Ryder will always cop a bit of flak because he'll be playing against the best forwards and will get beaten from time to time.
In reality yes, in the world of bigfooty no.
Ryder will always cop a bit of flak because he'll be playing against the best forwards and will get beaten from time to time.
Even the radio commentators after the game were giving him (Ryder) a bit of stick.
I think a lot of people forget that he's still yet to turn 21...and it's not as if he's playing on your dime-a-dozen third tall's, he's playing on the Bradshaw's, Brown's and Franklin's of the world.
bipolarbeaR
1 Mar 2009, 08:55
Anyhow. Back to Lonergan.. I remember the lack of contact in basketball used to annoy him. Bit of a tough customer, ball use isn't the best sometimes but slips tackles and finds tha ball.
I absolutely love the way this young fella plays.
Does the hard work in close, doesn't give opponents any easy kicks, Stands up in tackles and still gets the ball away.
Hes playing great footy.
Ryder has him covered x100
Ant has to stop posting drunk.
Might have to start taking your own advice :D
Ryder will always cop a bit of flak because he'll be playing against the best forwards and will get beaten from time to time.
LOL when does he ever win?
Might have to start taking your own advice :D
LOL when does he ever win?
He beat Cameron Mooney once....
He beat Cameron Mooney once....
Also played very well on Jonathon Brown, who got 2-3 easy goals off very bad turnovers from our midfield.
Also played very well on Jonathon Brown, who got 2-3 easy goals off very bad turnovers from our midfield.
Brown kicked 4 or 5 that night from memory, think it was 5, and if Paddy had of played him the respect he deserved it should have been 2.
I remember Essendon supporters arguing on the MB that he beat Brown that night, yet had 5 kicked on him.
Of course you are going to get burned when you play off your man and he can get the jump on you.
Defenders need to stay switched on and close to their man, that's one of the reasons why he gets burned time after time after time.
kelvin_sheedy
1 Mar 2009, 10:08
LOL when does he ever win?
Micky O, Mooney, curtailed Browns influence and beat him one on one a number of times, was good on Fev when he was tearing us apart.
Has only really been towelled up by Franklin adn one or two others but has generally held his own pretty much one out all the time.
It seems your another one that's lost all perspective and now just trots out the the same old silly bigfooty logic.
ghostdog
1 Mar 2009, 10:13
Brown kicked 4 or 5 that night from memory, think it was 5, and if Paddy had of played him the respect he deserved it should have been 2.
I remember Essendon supporters arguing on the MB that he beat Brown that night, yet had 5 kicked on him.
Of course you are going to get burned when you play off your man and he can get the jump on you.
Defenders need to stay switched on and close to their man, that's one of the reasons why he gets burned time after time after time.
Brown's goals that night weren't all stock-standard lead-mark-goals. Ryder was a definite burden on Brown and out marked him more than once. With anyone else Brown may have kicked 8 or 9 and we wouldn't have won the game.
What's Ryder, 20 years of age? He'll be a star.
Micky O, Mooney, curtailed Browns influence and beat him one on one a number of times, was good on Fev when he was tearing us apart.
Has only really been towelled up by Franklin adn one or two others but has generally held his own pretty much one out all the time.
It seems your another one that's lost all perspective and now just trots out the the same old silly bigfooty logic.
No loss of perspective and have been saying for awhile now that Ryder is massively overrated by Essendon supporters and i doubt he will ever be a capable defender on the last line. CHB is his spot in the backline
I have my own views on issues and generally go against BF views, but continue to follow your own delusions, you are very good at that.
Brown kicked 4 or 5 that night from memory, think it was 5, and if Paddy had of played him the respect he deserved it should have been 2.
I remember Essendon supporters arguing on the MB that he beat Brown that night, yet had 5 kicked on him.
Of course you are going to get burned when you play off your man and he can get the jump on you.
Defenders need to stay switched on and close to their man, that's one of the reasons why he gets burned time after time after time.
It as nothing to do with respect, he didn't run off him, any defender can get left high and dry from a bad turnover in an open forward line, especially in a shoot out type match like it was that night. Paddy won most 50/50 contests that night.
Sure he has impropvements in him but he has also shown a lot of good aspects as well.
I remember being at that brisbane game and thinking how well Ryder was doing. He comprehensively beat Brown that night; there were a few bad turnovers that gifted Brown with goals. Brown lost most contests to Ryder, and relying on statistics such as Brown's 5 goals is naive and misleading.
It as nothing to do with respect, he didn't run off him, any defender can get left high and dry from a bad turnover in an open forward line, especially in a shoot out type match like it was that night. Paddy won most 50/50 contests that night.
Sure he has impropvements in him but he has also shown a lot of good aspects as well.
It has everything to do with paying respect.
Ryder is continually burned by players on the lead not in one on one contests, although this does happen sometimes but that is to be expected at this early stage of his development.
When you are a defender whos job it is to stop goals then you have to play in a defensive mindset and not give your opponent 1 mm of space and you need to sacrifice you own game of gathering possessions to make sure you do not have a goal kicked on you. Watch how many times Ryders man is in front of him when the ball is in the midfield.
Ryder zones off his man or stands too far off him and is nowhere near defensive enough.
Watch all the goals Ryder gets kicked on him the majority come from him being led to the ball when the forward gets the jump on him, hence why he shouldn't play deep.
I am not calling him a dud but he far from the superstar he has been labeled as by many.
I remember being at that brisbane game and thinking how well Ryder was doing. He comprehensively beat Brown that night; there were a few bad turnovers that gifted Brown with goals. Brown lost most contests to Ryder, and relying on statistics such as Brown's 5 goals is naive and misleading.
If you think that a DEFENDER that is in a side that pumps the other, yet has 5 goals kicked on him "comprehensively beat Brown", then you are not only naive but in a state of delusion.
Maybe my naivety has come from watching footy for almost 40 years.
Anyway i have hijacked this thread enough and will leave it at that.
If you think that a DEFENDER that is in a side that pumps the other, yet has 5 goals kicked on him "comprehensively beat Brown", then you are not only naive but in a state of delusion.
Maybe my naivety has come from watching footy for almost 40 years.
Maybe. I know what I saw that night.
bipolarbeaR
1 Mar 2009, 10:48
I remember being at that brisbane game and thinking how well Ryder was doing. He comprehensively beat Brown that night; there were a few bad turnovers that gifted Brown with goals. Brown lost most contests to Ryder, and relying on statistics such as Brown's 5 goals is naive and misleading.
Was the first game of live AFL in my life, I was sitting on the wing just above the two, Ryder needs to play on forwards like that ALL the time.
Was a high scoring affair, the ball went in the direction of Ryder and Brown close to twenty times, Ryder won that day. (one of the only times since)
I do love Ryder, he is a nice bloke and he has loads of XFactor but really should be playing ruck or roaming tall more so than a focussed defender, UNLESS he actually uses his athleticism for once instead of getting in muscle on muscle contests.
Houli2Gumbleton
1 Mar 2009, 10:51
Once Bachar Houli strings some games together, he will be our best. The kid is a star. Must play in the midfield rather than half back.
It has everything to do with paying respect.
Not always, not every single goal he concedes is due to the fact he isn't paying enough respect. Sometimes it's his fault, sometimes it's his teammates fault, sometimes it's just footy and you'll concede to good players every now and then.
My point was 2 of Jon Browns goals were he's teammates fault and was impossible to stop, and he did beat him in most if 50/50 contests, despite the outcome and despite the free flowing football match that was played he did play well that night.
Watch all the goals Ryder gets kicked on him the majority come from him being led to the ball when the forward gets the jump on him, hence why he shouldn't play deep.
This I agree with, CHB is his better position and hopefully Hurley can cement a spot down deep, but good forwards get a jump on the best defenders, it's not easy watching the play and your opponent at the same time, that being said he could improve his ball-watching a little more.
Ryder has only played key back for 2 years. Considering his age and his relative inexperience in his task he has done very well. Comparing him with his peers he stacks up quite well. He did give away 43 goals in 22 matches in 2008, in comparison Nathan Brown (Collingwood) gave away 52 goals in 23 matches. I know Ryder played a few games in the ruck but Nathan Brown had a lot more support.
Garland did a lot better but otherwise there is not many defenders who have done better defensively than Ryder at the same age/experience level.
Ludwig van Bertstare
1 Mar 2009, 10:55
It has everything to do with paying respect.
Ryder is continually burned by players on the lead not in one on one contests, although this does happen sometimes but that is to be expected at this early stage of his development.
When you are a defender whos job it is to stop goals then you have to play in a defensive mindset and not give your opponent 1 mm of space and you need to sacrifice you own game of gathering possessions to make sure you do not have a goal kicked on you. Watch how many times Ryders man is in front of him when the ball is in the midfield.
Ryder zones off his man or stands too far off him and is nowhere near defensive enough.
Watch all the goals Ryder gets kicked on him the majority come from him being led to the ball when the forward gets the jump on him, hence why he shouldn't play deep.
I am not calling him a dud but he far from the superstar he has been labeled as by many.
Well said Merv. I question whether Ryder should/could play CHB permanently.
Well said Merv. I question whether Ryder should/could play CHB permanently.
who should take his place?
Ludwig van Bertstare
1 Mar 2009, 11:12
who should take his place?
Pears/Daniher
Houli2Gumbleton
1 Mar 2009, 11:21
Pears/Daniher
Just because Ryder has developed early, it doesn't mean we should have extremely high expectations of him. He is still only 20 and with more experience, he will only improve. Ryder is way ahead of Pears and Daniher atm.
Ludwig van Bertstare
1 Mar 2009, 11:39
I'm not saying Pears/Daniher could and should take his place because they're obviously un-proven - Ryder, IMO just doesn't have that defensive mentality to be a lockdown CHB/FB. Even if he's still developing you either have it or you don't. Judging from footage of Hurley in the u/18's and reports he does have that mentality where he just wants to destroy his opponent.
loopy_cam
1 Mar 2009, 14:34
Lonergan is one of our most important players.
kelvin_sheedy
1 Mar 2009, 14:36
lol at the thoughts on Ryder.
His first 4 games last year were great. He would have been in the best few CHB's in the league - not far off AA type form if he got a bit more of the pill.
He then played ruck and forward for a bit of the season, came back to CHB and got mauled by Franklin then finished off the season poorly as we were getting smashed and all of a sudden there's a concern about his defensive ability.
*Sigh*.... the collective minds of the bigfooty community is always good for a laugh.
It as nothing to do with respect, he didn't run off him, any defender can get left high and dry from a bad turnover in an open forward line, especially in a shoot out type match like it was that night. Paddy won most 50/50 contests that night.
Sure he has impropvements in him but he has also shown a lot of good aspects as well.
Spot on. Merv's mostly, but not completely wrong though. There's no question that Ryder could be great, whether it be at CHB or elsewhere. There's also no doubt that he's been hung out to dry on a number of occasions. The 2 areas of concern with Paddy are intensity (he still seems to fall asleep from time to time) and finding the footy. I couldn't care less if a bigger, stronger opponent beats him, but it's time for Paddy to start generating some play by running off his opponent and demanding the footy. 10 possessions a week isn't good enough. If you're poorly skilled and have nothing going for you i.e. Prestigiacomo, 10 touches or less is fine. When you've got speed, skill and agility, touching the footy so intermittently is a waste.
Not to mention his vision, skill and penetrating kick.
bomberstomake8
1 Mar 2009, 17:35
lol at the thoughts on Ryder.
His first 4 games last year were great. He would have been in the best few CHB's in the league - not far off AA type form if he got a bit more of the pill.
He then played ruck and forward for a bit of the season, came back to CHB and got mauled by Franklin then finished off the season poorly as we were getting smashed and all of a sudden there's a concern about his defensive ability.
*Sigh*.... the collective minds of the bigfooty community is always good for a laugh.
completely agree, and is anyone taking the style of play that we played last season into account?, it was ridiculous our midfield had no accountability... There is literally nothing any defender can do in that situation. there is so much talent now in the afl that elite midfeilders can place a pass onto the chest of leading forwards with absolutely nothing any defender can do about it and unless you put pressure on the ball carrier so that the kick is not perfect then the defenders are going to get destroyed.
bomberstomake8
1 Mar 2009, 17:38
Spot on. Merv's mostly, but not completely wrong though. There's no question that Ryder could be great, whether it be at CHB or elsewhere. There's also no doubt that he's been hung out to dry on a number of occasions. The 2 areas of concern with Paddy are intensity (he still seems to fall asleep from time to time) and finding the footy. I couldn't care less if a bigger, stronger opponent beats him, but it's time for Paddy to start generating some play by running off his opponent and demanding the footy. 10 possessions a week isn't good enough. If you're poorly skilled and have nothing going for you i.e. Prestigiacomo, 10 touches or less is fine. When you've got speed, skill and agility, touching the footy so intermittently is a waste.
i have to say i completely disagree with the common need from supporters for paddy to get a lot of the ball. he is a KP defender, we have players like myers, dempsey, nash, slattery, fletcher etc down back who are more then capable of finding the footy and using it well. in an ideal world paddy would get 30 touches and keep his opponent goalless, but his job isnt to setup play, its to stop his opponent.
i have to say i completely disagree with the common need from supporters for paddy to get a lot of the ball. he is a KP defender, we have players like myers, dempsey, nash, slattery, fletcher etc down back who are more then capable of finding the footy and using it well. in an ideal world paddy would get 30 touches and keep his opponent goalless, but his job isnt to setup play, its to stop his opponent.
I'm not asking him to get a lot of the ball, I just want him to get more involved. If he's getting beaten, he can still have a positive impact on the game by providing a bit of rebound. And if we're expecting him to be our next superstar, an output of 10 touches a week will see him fall well short of that expectation.
Superstars don't just want the the ball...they demand it. Paddy has to start believing that the best place for the ball to be is in his hands. Defenders often don't have a choice but to let the contest come to them, but the best ones go beyond that and can make things happen. There's no better example of that than Fletch.
Ryder's AFL career is only 3 years old, so his game is obviously still developing. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect bigger and better things from him in 2009. And saying "his job isn't to set up play, it's to stop his opponent" is rubbish. Footy has changed and the days of playing a purely negative role are just about over. The best backmen in the league do more than just defend. Again, there's no better example of that than Fletch.
Ben the Gooner
1 Mar 2009, 19:00
Once Bachar Houli strings some games together, he will be our best. The kid is a star. Must play in the midfield rather than half back.
Not in the same breath as Sammy and Paddy yet.
At the OP, you're about 8 months too late for mine.;)
Shane Hird
1 Mar 2009, 19:32
We're talking about our best young player arn't we not?
Lonergan is streets ahead of Paddy in terms of sheer 'value' to our team.
Lonergan is in there playing like he's in his 5th season, winning the hard ball and doing very smart, creative things around the packs. He's just got that footy brain just like a Wanganeen, Rama or a Mark Harvey had.
They all quickly worked out at a very early age (their first season) how to play at league pace, how to dispose of the ball in an instant.
In Harvey's case, he flew through the air with such confidence in his early years and took so many strong marks....we couldn't believe he was only 18,19 or 20.
As Merv pointed out, Paddy gets left behind alot and allows his opponent to take marks way out in front on the lead. But one on one and fisting balls away in packs, he is a sensational young player the way he reads the incoming ball.. Sure he makes mistakes, but --k me, I'd rather have Paddy minding a Franklin than a McPhee or aanyone else in our backline atm. He's a work in progress. And I'd like to see Paddy play at CHB for the next 6 or 7 years. To me, it's the hardest position on the field.
Both Lonergan and Ryder are going to play a big part in this club's future.
I really can't split Lonergan, Houli and Ryder. All three bring something different to the team.
bomba4eva
1 Mar 2009, 20:21
Not that he actually ever does anything except take marks, it's about time we stop going on about this kid till he does something I believe.
How does cementing a KP spot in his 3rd AFL season sound to you?
bomba4eva
1 Mar 2009, 20:27
The following list are better:
Dempsey, Houli, Reimers, Ryder
That's discounting many others who haven't played enough games to prove themselves.
These would include:
Gumbleton, Neagle, Myers.
Great pick up so late in the draft:thumbsu:
Longy413
2 Mar 2009, 06:54
Might have to start taking your own advice :D
Mate, I'd rather be posting drunk than with a screaming kid.
Once Bachar Houli strings some games together, he will be our best. The kid is a star. Must play in the midfield rather than half back.
Not even close.
Gumby, Neagle, Myers, Dempsey, Ryder are all easily ahead of him.
Also worth nothing that Stanton, Prismall and Monfries are only 22.
Lonergan is streets ahead of Paddy in terms of sheer 'value' to our team.
Quite the opposite.
Lonergan has been great and is fast becoming important to us, but a midfielder is never more important than a cog in your spine.
With a full list to choose from, if Lonergan goes down we would have McVeigh, Watson, Winderlich, Prismall, Welsh all capable of winning the ball underneath.
We'd have Hurley playing at CHB if Ryder went down.
The following list are better:
Dempsey, Houli, Reimers, Ryder
That's discounting many others who haven't played enough games to prove themselves.
These would include:
Gumbleton, Neagle, Myers.
Great pick up so late in the draft:thumbsu:
Dempsey turns the ball over too much, Houli should be good but hasn't done enough to this stage, same with Reimers and Ryder is an important cog to our defence but I think Sammy has it over all them atm.
I think five rounds into this season Houli will go past him though. :thumbsu:
I think five rounds into this season Houli will go past him though. :thumbsu:
Well the coaches don't seem to be too happy with the defensive side of his game at the moment, he might go past him in a lot of fans eyes when he is chasing kicks, but probably not in the coaches eyes.
Lonergan looks like becoming a very good player but he is not as important as Ryder.
best young players at essendon:
on potential:
neagle, gumby, stanton, monfries, jetta, zaharakis, hurley, dempsey, myers, daniher, ryder, reimers, houli are all ahead of lonergan.
on exposed form at afl level:
only stanton, monfries, ryder, reimers, houli could be considered ahead of lonergan.
at seasons end 2007 i thought lonergan was a chance to be delisted - he worked really hard in 2008 saving his career and getting himself a new contract. he is a valuable member of the squad and he has a good approach to the game but is not as naturally gifted as a lot of others. i don't think he's anywhere near essendon's best young player but he certainly is a valuable contributor. i hope he takes his game to a new level again in 09 but i doubt he has the capability to become a starting midfielder ahead of the others in that brigade.
Ben the Gooner
2 Mar 2009, 13:51
The following list are better:
Dempsey, Houli, Reimers, Ryder
How can you possibly say that Dempsey, Reimers and Houli have proven more than Sammy. I love Reimers, and I've got his number on the back of my jumper, but Jesus, he's done nothing compared to what Sammy has. The difference is Reimers is a slightly flashier player. Ditto Houli and Dempsey. They will all (hopefully) become great players, but Lonergan is streets ahead of those three at this stage.
Also worth nothing that Stanton, Prismall and Monfries are only 22.
Interesting typo.:eek::p
best young players at essendon:
on potential:
neagle, gumby, stanton, monfries, jetta, zaharakis, hurley, dempsey, myers, daniher, ryder, reimers, houli are all ahead of lonergan.
How can you even consider those guys ahead of Lonergan given they have about 2 games between them, none of which were impressive? IMHO, Daniher needs to worry about keeping his spot on the list before he worries about being better than Lonergan. I disagree with most of the rest of that list, but it's opinion, so we'll get nowhere.
on exposed form at afl level:
only stanton, monfries, ryder, reimers, houli could be considered ahead of lonergan.
No they couldn't. Not at all. Neither have shown the consistant ability that Lonergan has.
at seasons end 2007 i thought lonergan was a chance to be delisted - he worked really hard in 2008 saving his career and getting himself a new contract.
An inspirational story.
he is a valuable member of the squad and he has a good approach to the game but is not as naturally gifted as a lot of others.
It's no good to have 22 Dempseys who have fantastic amounts of natural talent, but don't have the grit of a Lonergan. Watch him step up to fill the void of Welsh's injury this year. What a tough inside mid like Lonergan, who has the balls to kick two goals from 50 while concussed, brings to the team cannot be overstated.
i don't think he's anywhere near essendon's best young player but he certainly is a valuable contributor. i hope he takes his game to a new level again in 09 but i doubt he has the capability to become a starting midfielder ahead of the others in that brigade.
He's one of the first names on the teamsheet for me.
ghostdog
2 Mar 2009, 14:20
We're talking about our best young player arn't we not?
Lonergan is streets ahead of Paddy in terms of sheer 'value' to our team.
Lonergan is in there playing like he's in his 5th season, winning the hard ball and doing very smart, creative things around the packs. He's just got that footy brain just like a Wanganeen, Rama or a Mark Harvey had.
They all quickly worked out at a very early age (their first season) how to play at league pace, how to dispose of the ball in an instant.
In Harvey's case, he flew through the air with such confidence in his early years and took so many strong marks....we couldn't believe he was only 18,19 or 20.
As Merv pointed out, Paddy gets left behind alot and allows his opponent to take marks way out in front on the lead. But one on one and fisting balls away in packs, he is a sensational young player the way he reads the incoming ball.. Sure he makes mistakes, but --k me, I'd rather have Paddy minding a Franklin than a McPhee or aanyone else in our backline atm. He's a work in progress. And I'd like to see Paddy play at CHB for the next 6 or 7 years. To me, it's the hardest position on the field.
Both Lonergan and Ryder are going to play a big part in this club's future.
Yeah I like that reckless abandon about Lonergan. His resolve to get into a pack and get the ball out of there asap is terrific. Blokes like Houli could learn a lot by watching Lonergan in that regard. It's that toughness that reminds me of Harvey. I'd like to see Lonergan having beefed up a bit in a couple of years and with the experience of a couple of years.
I also agree that Paddy gets left behind a bit when a forward leads for a mark, but given that it's the forward who leads, Paddy would have to match or beat him for pace and the guy can't chop the forward's arms. Beating the forward then is a bastard of a tough job. In that respect I can understand why he plays off the man, especially if he thinks he's quicker on foot than his man, and as you say, the way he reads the incoming ball is terrific. I've seen him run into the contest from an adjacent position to cut off the mark many times. He definitely handled Brown that way more than once. Paddy's very good at what he does, but again, he doesn't have the body strength to match a standing mark against guys like Brown and Franklin. So I reckon he's more suited to CHB than FB where he wouldn't have as much room to move. Consider the body strength of a guy like Mal Michael during the premiership years at Brisbane, and he had enough to at least spoil the mark (which he mostly did very aggressively). Paddy needs to bulk up to match that defensive role, otherwise I think he's more suited to half-back. If he stays at CHB though, yeah, he needs to play closer to his man. I'd like to see Pears rotate through half-back to allow Paddy to run though. It's quite obvious he likes a bit of a paddock.
ghostdog
2 Mar 2009, 14:29
Also worth nothing that Stanton, Prismall and Monfries are only 22.
This is the bit that really makes me smile :D
Our side is so young I can only see good things ahead. Stanton especially already plays like he's older. Let's hope he keeps improving.
The sadist in me wants us to (dare I say it) tank for more and better draft picks, but of course I wouldn't dream of such a thing. Totally unsporting... and all the rest of it. Besides, I want us to kick arse now. NOW!
Shane Hird
2 Mar 2009, 14:39
Also worth nothing that Stanton, Prismall and Monfries are only 22.
Quite the opposite.
Lonergan has been great and is fast becoming important to us, but a midfielder is never more important than a cog in your spine.
With a full list to choose from, if Lonergan goes down we would have McVeigh, Watson, Winderlich, Prismall, Welsh all capable of winning the ball underneath.
We'd have Hurley playing at CHB if Ryder went down.
Stanton has played nearly 100 games. Watson has 72 games under his belt. Paddy is at 50. Monfries has 70 odd. Why would we compare these four experienced (but young) players to Lonergan?
Lonergan basically played his 'debut' season last year after spending all that time at BBs. You can't tell me Stanton,Paddy,Watson or Monfries had a better first year than Sammy just did?
Yes i agree, Paddy's CHB position is more important than a midfield role and he can't be replaced that easy if he goes down.
But what we are talking about here is which young player is our best at what he's been told to do. Lonergan has shown to me that he has what it takes to make it as a league player...and he's only played 20 matches.
And you can't get a more demanding job in football than being told to play in the guts and win the hard ball in all that heavy traffic.
Lonergan basically played his 'debut' season last year after spending all that time at BBs. You can't tell me Stanton,Paddy,Watson or Monfries had a better first year than Sammy just did?
I'd say Monfries first full season (his second year at the club) was better. I rate Reimers and Lonergan's 2008 pretty similarly. I personally rate Reimers higher, but love the way Lonergan plays.
jetta2davey
2 Mar 2009, 17:22
longy i agree with most things you say, but that's rubbish.
Lonergan is right up there along with Ryder, Houli, and Myers competing for the mantle of Essendon's best young player.
bipolarbeaR
2 Mar 2009, 17:45
Lonergan basically played his 'debut' season last year after spending all that time at BBs. You can't tell me Stanton,Paddy,Watson or Monfries had a better first year than Sammy just did?
:thumbsu: Solid point, not many players have had a better Debut season he and Reimers had screaming first years!
Sheedy didn't notice Lonergans talent, gotta love Knighter!
Ben the Gooner
2 Mar 2009, 17:53
Reimers' debut season was 07 where he had (I think) 5 games.
Shane Hird
2 Mar 2009, 17:54
longy i agree with most things you say, but that's rubbish.
Lonergan is right up there along with Ryder, Houli, and Myers competing for the mantle of Essendon's best young player.
Ya can't bring Houli or Myers into this arguement.
This is one of those threads that go around and around with 50% of people believing in one thing and the other half saying different.
Sort of on the same subject.....which player in the last 20 years has had a better debut year than Lonergan? (meaning they could have played 2 or 3 games the year before-but play a near full season in their 2nd).
Rama and Mercuri come to mind. Lonergan would be in that top group.
Yes, and Monfries did have a fine debut season. Fearless.
But was it as good as Sammy's ?
Sheedy didn't notice Lonergans talent, gotta love Knighter!
Gotta love Knighta? LOL......when Knights does 5% of what Sheedy did for this club, then he'll deserve some respect. Don't forget that if our Knighta got his way, Lovett wouldn't be in red & black anymore.
If Sheeds was still coach, who knows if Lonergan would've survived? He played some good footy for Bendigo in 2007, but just couldn't crack it for a senior game.
Reimers' debut season was 07 where he had (I think) 5 games.
And Lonergan's was in 2006. I think breakthrough season rather than debut season would be a better way to phrase it.
Ben the Gooner
2 Mar 2009, 18:46
1 game at the end of the season is a little different to 5 games though.
1 game at the end of the season is a little different to 5 games though.
Thought it was closer to mid-season (in the wet against the Saints). Sammy didn't see much of it from memory, but attacked the ball hard. He wasn't able to earn another game though.
Reimers played 3 games towards the end 2007.
Ben the Gooner
2 Mar 2009, 19:06
My memory's not great for things like that, so I'll defer to you.
I'd still have Sammy's last year over Reimers'.
bipolarbeaR
2 Mar 2009, 19:37
Don't forget that if our Knighta got his way, Lovett wouldn't be in red & black anymore
Can't say I have a massive problem with it to be honest, he skipped training twice..
How can you possibly say that Dempsey, Reimers and Houli have proven more than Sammy. I love Reimers, and I've got his number on the back of my jumper, but Jesus, he's done nothing compared to what Sammy has. The difference is Reimers is a slightly flashier player. Ditto Houli and Dempsey. They will all (hopefully) become great players, but Lonergan is streets ahead of those three at this stage.
Interesting typo.:eek::p
How can you even consider those guys ahead of Lonergan given they have about 2 games between them, none of which were impressive? IMHO, Daniher needs to worry about keeping his spot on the list before he worries about being better than Lonergan. I disagree with most of the rest of that list, but it's opinion, so we'll get nowhere.
No they couldn't. Not at all. Neither have shown the consistant ability that Lonergan has.
An inspirational story.
It's no good to have 22 Dempseys who have fantastic amounts of natural talent, but don't have the grit of a Lonergan. Watch him step up to fill the void of Welsh's injury this year. What a tough inside mid like Lonergan, who has the balls to kick two goals from 50 while concussed, brings to the team cannot be overstated.
He's one of the first names on the teamsheet for me.
Yep... on the money with most of that Ben:thumbsu:
Can't say I have a massive problem with it to be honest, he skipped training twice..
Big deal! We don't have enough match-winners to gift one away to an opposition club. Lovett's efforts so far during the preseason have proven what a foolish mistake Knights was willing to make.
Ya can't bring Houli or Myers into this arguement.
This is one of those threads that go around and around with 50% of people believing in one thing and the other half saying different.
Sort of on the same subject.....which player in the last 20 years has had a better debut year than Lonergan? (meaning they could have played 2 or 3 games the year before-but play a near full season in their 2nd).
Rama and Mercuri come to mind. Lonergan would be in that top group.
Yes, and Monfries did have a fine debut season. Fearless.
But was it as good as Sammy's ?
surely james hird and joe misiti get a mention! both played a handful of games late in 92 wearing no.s 49 and 52 from memory before winning reserves premiership then being awesome in 93 with a more significant cup.
paddy ryder is another.
wanganeen and cockatoo-collins were both very good early also.
scott cummings burst onto the scene in his first season.
slightly more than 20 years but paul salmon was pretty handy early on as well.
Big deal! We don't have enough match-winners to gift one away to an opposition club. Lovett's efforts so far during the preseason have proven what a foolish mistake Knights was willing to make.
Of course it's possible that if Knighter didn't try to trade Lovett away his efforts so far wouldn't be as good.....
I'm not a Bombers supporter, but he's a gun. I'd love him at Port.
Phat Toni
3 Mar 2009, 07:45
Brown kicked 4 or 5 that night from memory, think it was 5, and if Paddy had of played him the respect he deserved it should have been 2.
I remember Essendon supporters arguing on the MB that he beat Brown that night, yet had 5 kicked on him.
Of course you are going to get burned when you play off your man and he can get the jump on you.
Defenders need to stay switched on and close to their man, that's one of the reasons why he gets burned time after time after time.
I was reading this yesterday and went home and had a flick through the game on my HDR. I'm not disagreeing with you about Paddy being a little to relaxed about his defensive positioning, I have to admit it’s my biggest beef with him. However I will disagree with you about how brown got or deserved his 5 goals. Defiantly two and a 50/50 call on three were not Paddy's fault. There were two bad turnovers by our midfield where Paddy had instigated the run out of defense and was caught out of position on the quick rebound, one in particular Brown had nobody within 30 meters of him because he was cheating and sitting back not chasing his man. The 50/50 was just a couple of young players getting in each others way not entirely Paddy's fault.
I would argue that the contest was a draw and remember it was a power forwards day, Bradshaw kicked a few and Lloyd and Lucus must have kick around 10 between them, it was pretty free flowing and there was a lot of silver service being delivered, it would have been tough for any defender that day.
bipolarbeaR
3 Mar 2009, 18:59
Of course it's possible that if Knighter didn't try to trade Lovett away his efforts so far wouldn't be as good.....
You saved me saying it Spikey :) Thanks bro!
Of course it's possible that if Knighter didn't try to trade Lovett away his efforts so far wouldn't be as good.....
Good on him if he was just bluffing ;)
bipolarbeaR
3 Mar 2009, 19:45
I honestly think he was, funny that he aimed at the best club in the league at the moment with the tightest midfield ever and that he put such a high price for him huh? :P
Longy413
3 Mar 2009, 19:59
Stanton has played nearly 100 games. Watson has 72 games under his belt. Paddy is at 50. Monfries has 70 odd. Why would we compare these four experienced (but young) players to Lonergan?
Because this thread is about the best youngster.
Paddy was taken in the same draft.
Having experience shouldn't go against someone when assessing who is best, it's a positive.
Lonergan basically played his 'debut' season last year after spending all that time at BBs. You can't tell me Stanton,Paddy,Watson or Monfries had a better first year than Sammy just did?
He didn't, it was his third year on the list.
Being a late bloomer, or not being able to crack a game for two years (injuries played a role), don't make him better.
Stants was good enough to play finals in his first year.
Monfries second year was as good as or better than Lonergan's third.
Paddy is playing on some of the games best.
But what we are talking about here is which young player is our best at what he's been told to do. Lonergan has shown to me that he has what it takes to make it as a league player...and he's only played 20 matches.
I don't disagree, the kid is a gem and has all the makings of being a very, very good midfielder.
I just don't think he's our best young player.
And you can't get a more demanding job in football than being told to play in the guts and win the hard ball in all that heavy traffic.
What about playing on Jon Brown?
longys points are all very good ones that cannot be argued with for mine.
its an absolute joke to say a bloke is in his "first year" after 3 years at the club. surely the 2 years of professional training at a professional club put him way ahead of genuine rookies with only one summer?
Shane Hird
3 Mar 2009, 21:31
Because this thread is about the best youngster.
Paddy was taken in the same draft.
What about playing on Jon Brown?
No one is going to have an easy day on that Gorilla. He's another Carey.
I'd rather stand Travis Cloke all day than battle for the ball all day against Ablett, Bartel, Ling and Corey...
I gave up long ago debating the finer points of an arguement with you Longy. Let's just agree that I reckon he's the best player of who's played under 30 games and he's joining a very talented bunch of other future stars who are about the same age.:)
Diplomatic arn't I ?;)
Lance Uppercut
4 Mar 2009, 08:51
I was reading this yesterday and went home and had a flick through the game on my HDR. I'm not disagreeing with you about Paddy being a little to relaxed about his defensive positioning, I have to admit it’s my biggest beef with him. However I will disagree with you about how brown got or deserved his 5 goals. Defiantly two and a 50/50 call on three were not Paddy's fault. There were two bad turnovers by our midfield where Paddy had instigated the run out of defense and was caught out of position on the quick rebound, one in particular Brown had nobody within 30 meters of him because he was cheating and sitting back not chasing his man. The 50/50 was just a couple of young players getting in each others way not entirely Paddy's fault.
I would argue that the contest was a draw and remember it was a power forwards day, Bradshaw kicked a few and Lloyd and Lucus must have kick around 10 between them, it was pretty free flowing and there was a lot of silver service being delivered, it would have been tough for any defender that day.
could not agree more. Only simplistic nuffies could reasonably say Ryder was killed one on one with Buddy that day
bomba4eva
4 Mar 2009, 21:51
I honestly think he was, funny that he aimed at the best club in the league at the moment with the tightest midfield ever and that he put such a high price for him huh? :P
Except for the fact that he gave Ssydney a good crack at him also.
danzan22
5 Mar 2009, 11:10
Thought it was closer to mid-season (in the wet against the Saints). Sammy didn't see much of it from memory, but attacked the ball hard. He wasn't able to earn another game though.
Reimers played 3 games towards the end 2007.
He had 15 posession on a very rainy day, was a reasonable return for a debutee and deserved another game but got left out
could not agree more. Only simplistic nuffies could reasonably say Ryder was killed one on one with Buddy that day
Huh :p
TheDon35
5 Mar 2009, 16:29
If sam lonergan is our best youngster then we are 12 years off winning a premiership.
He is an ok mid who gets in and gets it but will rarely win a game for you.
If he's better than Myers, Ryder, Gumby, Houli, Neagle, Dempsey etc then we have recruited disgustingly and the recruiters should resign today.
Ben the Gooner
5 Mar 2009, 16:41
Can you tell me how any of those bar Ryder could possibly have shown as much as Lonergan?
He had 15 posession on a very rainy day, was a reasonable return for a debutee and deserved another game but got left out
4 possessions
If sam lonergan is our best youngster then we are 12 years off winning a premiership.
He is an ok mid who gets in and gets it but will rarely win a game for you.
If he's better than Myers, Ryder, Gumby, Houli, Neagle, Dempsey etc then we have recruited disgustingly and the recruiters should resign today.
Have you seen him play? I don't think you have.
Pevers-Legend
24 May 2009, 03:32
Not even close.
Really struglling. I like the cut of his jib - but when the injuered players return he is VFL bound.
For all his attack on the footy and guts - he still has not taken the next step. Really hope he does but if he wants to be more than a depth player he needs to. Due to the improvments of the list he is no longer a first 22 walk up.
Have to say hcking has waltzed past him at this stage.
with McVeigh, Welsh and even Prismall and Reimers to push for selection - can't see how low stats games can keep him in the team. Has to do way more.
kelvin_sheedy
24 May 2009, 07:54
Yep, not doing enough and needs to lift his game as injured players are coming back.
I thouht he'd be performing better at this stage and always looks like he's either or struggling at the moment with his body.
Ben the Gooner
24 May 2009, 10:27
Has struggled this year. I think he may be carrying a few injuries, given how many he's copped this year.
AndyLesPaul
24 May 2009, 10:28
Has struggled this year. I think he may be carrying a few injuries, given how many he's copped this year.
I agree. It looked like he got injured at the end of the match too. Like right after Dempsey did
kelvin_sheedy
25 Jul 2009, 08:50
Dropped for the run home and might struggle to get back in the side.
He hasn't stepped up after promising so much.
Where to for Sammy?
Dropped for the run home and might struggle to get back in the side.
He hasn't stepped up after promising so much.
Where to for Sammy?All he can really do is head back to Bendigo and work his arse off.
He doesn't seem to be playing midfield very much this year; hopefully he improves on his fitness, as his in-and-under work is still quite brilliant for a youngster.
The Great Barry Besanko
25 Jul 2009, 14:16
Just don't get it. HAs looked good to me. Who gives a shit about the stats, they simply do not show what this guy does.
Was one of the keys v Carlton when Watson got injured then doesn't play in the middle following week. Either was injured or buggered if I know why.
Had a poor one v Dogs but far from the only one. Just don't agree with his omission.
High Ryder
25 Jul 2009, 15:53
Just don't get it. HAs looked good to me. Who gives a shit about the stats, they simply do not show what this guy does.
Was one of the keys v Carlton when Watson got injured then doesn't play in the middle following week. Either was injured or buggered if I know why.
Had a poor one v Dogs but far from the only one. Just don't agree with his omission.
Agree with this, he adds a real inside presence and is able to get quality clearances not just scrappy kicks out of a pack. He won't be long in the 2's (hopefully).
danzan22
25 Jul 2009, 17:19
He doesn't seem to be getting much of a chance in the midfield, frustrated the hell out of me in the collingwood game where he was constantly in the foward pocket when he was obviously needed in the middle.
Lonergan needs to build up his endurance to spend greater time in the midfield.
He only averages about 70% game time.