Wisden's greatest test cricketers EVER!

[Jim Boy]

Batsmen:
1. Don Bradman (Australia)
2. Sachin Tendulkar (India)
3. Vivian Richards (West Indies)
4. Garry Sobers (West Indies)
5. Alan Border (Australia)
6. Jack Hobbs (England)
7. Ken Barrington (England)
8. Sunil Gavaskar (India)
9. Greg Chappell (Australia)
10. Brian Lara (West Indies)


Bowlers:
1. Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
2. Richard Hadlee (New Zealand)
3. Sydney Barnes (England)
4. Shane Warne (Australia)
5. Clarrie Grimmett (Australia)
6. Glenn McGrath (Australia)
7. Dennis Lillee (Australia)
8. Malcolm Marshall (West Indies)
9. Imran Khan (Pakistan)
10. Courtney Walsh (West Indies)


Thoughts?

[Zombie]

Originally posted by Jim Boy
Thoughts?

Lara is lucky to be there, sure he has the highest Test and First Class scores ever but he was a batsman that never really lived up to his full potential.

Steve Waugh should have his spot.

[DaveW]

Muralitharan at number one is a joke. Sydney Barnes number one for mine.

And Viv Richards the best West Indian bat of all time? Ahead of Sobers, Walcott, Weekes and Headley? Hmmm... Likewise Lara shouldn't be ahead of these guys either.

Good to see Border getting the credit he deserves, but five may be a little too high. Greg Chappell is surely Australia's second greatest bat.

And I thought most people who saw O'Reilly and Grimmett rated O'Reilly superior. Although as a South Australian I don't mind seeing Grimmett ranked higher. :D

Lindwall was better than Lillee.

Ambrose was better than Walsh.

Ok, I'll stop bitching and say Tendulkar at two was a good choice!

[Zombie]

Originally posted by DaveW
Muralitharan at number one is a joke. Sydney Barnes number one for mine.

And Viv Richards the best West Indian bat of all time? Ahead of Sobers, Walcott, Weekes and Headley? Hmmm... Likewise Lara shouldn't be ahead of these guys either.

Good to see Border getting the credit he deserves, but five may be a little too high. Greg Chappell is surely Australia's second greatest bat.

And I thought most people who saw O'Reilly and Grimmett rated O'Reilly superior. Although as a South Australian I don't mind seeing Grimmett ranked higher. :D

Lindwall was better than Lillee.

Ambrose was better than Walsh.

Ok, I'll stop bitching and say Tendulkar at two was a good choice!

Murali is a chucker, but if you ignore that then he is the clearly the best bowler of all time and may end up being considered a rival to Bradman, although obviously with the ball.

It seems to me the selectors put in players who not only had high averages but also did it for a long time, which is why Border is so high. It seems they went for Lara because of his milestones.

Personally I don't understand how you could have a top 10 batsmen without George Headley and Graeme Pollock. Pollock and Headley should have been in at 2 & 3 for me.

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Zombie
Murali is a chucker, but if you ignore that then he is the clearly the best bowler of all time and may end up being considered a rival to Bradman, although obviously with the ball.

Clearly, how? Explain. Barnes's statistics look a lot more impressive to me.

And there's no way Muralitharan is anything near to bowling what Bradman is to batting.

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by DaveW
And there's no way Muralitharan is anything near to bowling what Bradman is to batting.

True, for example Murali's weakness against left-hand batsmen over the years (except if they're named Langer). Not only has a great batsman like Brian Lara chopped him up in Sri Lanka, but even Graham Thorpe was able to blunt him when England toured there a couple of years ago.

And without looking at his stats in-depth, his record would probably be much more impressive at home then overseas. The best ever bowler shouldn't have such flaws in his record.

[DaveW]

Originally posted by wagstaff
True, for example Murali's weakness against left-hand batsmen over the years (except if they're named Langer). Not only has a great batsman like Brian Lara chopped him up in Sri Lanka, but even Graham Thorpe was able to blunt him when England toured there a couple of years ago.

And without looking at his stats in-depth, his record would probably be much more impressive at home then overseas. The best ever bowler shouldn't have such flaws in his record.

Good point. Muralitharan a far better bowler in Sri Lanka.


(6 ball overs) Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
overall 78 4357.4 10281 437 9/51 16/220 23.52 2.35 59.8 36 11
home 44 2480.4 5595 270 9/51 13/115 20.72 2.25 55.1 24 8
away 34 1877 4686 167 9/65 16/220 28.05 2.49 67.4 12 3


Whilst an average of 28 is still quite reasonable, it isn't 'great'.

Compared to Warne:


(6 ball overs) Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
overall 107 4979.3 12624 491 8/71 12/128 25.71 2.53 60.8 23 6
home 50 2338.5 5885 225 8/71 12/128 26.15 2.51 62.3 12 4
away 54 2516.4 6397 239 7/165 11/229 26.76 2.54 63.1 9 1
neutral 3 124 342 27 7/94 11/188 12.66 2.75 27.5 2 1


Who in fact has a home record slightly worse than his overall record.

[Diego]

Love to see this chucker play on hard bouncy wickets. This ranking is flawed and imho is iirelavent.

Sorry murri but your a chucker.

[roostersgal4eva]

he IS A chucker imho & i wonder how the ICC would of hadled him if he was from oz,nz,elg,wi or south african

clearing him was political imho!

having him playing @ being no.1 is a black mark on the game

[macca23]

Bowlers:
1. Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
2. Richard Hadlee (New Zealand)
3. Sydney Barnes (England)
4. Shane Warne (Australia)
5. Clarrie Grimmett (Australia)
6. Glenn McGrath (Australia)
7. Dennis Lillee (Australia)
8. Malcolm Marshall (West Indies)
9. Imran Khan (Pakistan)
10. Courtney Walsh (West Indies)

For Muralitharan to be #1, the heading should read bowlers and dart-throwers. This chucker shouldn't even be playing let alone be considered for such an honour. It is not even debateable whether he chucks or not - he chucks!!

The ICC are p*ss-weak!! Roostersgal4eva is correct correct correct. It is a political surrender to the outspoken threatening Sri Lankans and a thorough disgrace.

[hourn]

The lists are very flawed. My ass could come up with better one's than that.

For basmen:
Graeme Pollock
Everton Weekes
George Headley.

Those 3 should all be in there without argument alongside Braddles and Sobers. After that though, there is great argument for just about anyone who has an avearge of around 50 and over.

For the bowlers:
Malcolm Marshall should be higher - probably number 1. And only him and Walsh in there. I would have Ambrose and Garner in front of Walsh.
Alan Davidson should be a certain starter in there.
Apart from that the bowling doesn't look to bad and is very debatable, although Muralitharan is not number 1, but there is a case for him being in the top 10, even though he is a chucker. but i guess, if he is being allowed to play then he should be in contention for this position.

[hourn]

BTW, does anyone have the full list?

according to the SMH yesterday Steve Waugh was ranked 16th so i'm assuming that they have lists of 20 or maybe even 50???

[Jim Boy]

Originally posted by hourn
BTW, does anyone have the full list?

according to the SMH yesterday Steve Waugh was ranked 16th so i'm assuming that they have lists of 20 or maybe even 50???

Batting

1 DG Bradman Aus 80 6996 99.94 1349.0
2 SR Tendulkar Ind 165 8711 58.46 921.5
3 IVA Richards WI 182 8540 50.24 913.9
4 GA Sobers WI 160 8032 57.78 912.0
5 AR Border Aus 265 11174 50.56 911.2
6 JB Hobbs Eng 102 5410 56.95 908.8
7 KF Barrington Eng 131 6806 58.67 907.3
8 SM Gavaskar Ind 214 10122 51.12 902.2
9 GS Chappell Aus 151 7110 53.86 889.2
10 BC Lara WI 157 7572 49.49 881.9


name country innings runs average rating
11 L Hutton Eng 138 6971 56.67 879.1
12 H Sutcliffe Eng 84 4555 60.73 874.7
13 Javed Miandad Pak 189 8832 52.57 872.6
14 EdeC Weekes WI 81 4455 58.62 871.3
15 CL Walcott WI 74 3798 56.69 858.6
16 SR Waugh Aus 241 9840 49.45 850.7
17 GA Headley WI 40 2190 60.83 846.4
18 G Boycott Eng 193 8114 47.73 845.0
19 RG Pollock SA 41 2256 60.97 844.6
20 WR Hammond Eng 140 7249 58.46 844.1


name country innings runs average rating
21 R Dravid Ind 114 5483 54.29 835.3
22 GA Gooch Eng 215 8900 42.58 831.3
23 CH Lloyd WI 175 7515 46.68 830.9
24 ML Hayden Aus 60 2977 53.16 825.6
25 AC Gilchrist Aus 52 2434 57.95 825.4
26 Inzamam-ul-Haq Pak 136 6091 49.52 824.8
27 RN Harvey Aus 137 6149 48.42 818.4
28 CG Greenidge WI 185 7558 44.72 816.3
29 PBH May Eng 106 4537 46.77 812.9
30 DI Gower Eng 204 8231 44.25 803.9


name country innings runs average rating
31 RB Kanhai WI 137 6227 47.53 799.5
32 MC Cowdrey Eng 188 7624 44.07 799.3
33 KD Walters Aus 125 5357 48.26 786.7
34 DCS Compton Eng 131 5807 50.06 786.5
35 RB Richardson WI 146 5949 44.40 785.0
36 MA Taylor Aus 186 7525 43.50 784.7
37 DL Haynes WI 202 7487 42.30 782.2
38 JH Kallis SA 105 4350 50.00 777.2
39 DC Boon Aus 190 7422 43.66 774.2
40 A Flower Zim 112 4794 51.55 771.7


name country innings runs average rating
41 ME Waugh Aus 209 8029 41.82 763.8
42 AD Nourse SA 62 2960 53.82 763.6
43 AJ Stewart Eng 223 8080 39.80 761.6
44 RB Simpson Aus 111 4869 46.82 759.0
45 Saeed Anwar Pak 91 4052 45.53 756.9
46 RT Ponting Aus 97 4195 49.35 754.0
47 Yousuf Youhana Pak 67 3045 49.11 750.1
48 WM Lawry Aus 123 5234 47.15 746.0
49 GR Viswanath Ind 155 6080 41.93 744.9
50 AI Kallicharran WI 109 4399 44.43 744.1


name country innings runs average rating
51 DPMD Jayawardene SL 75 3351 47.87 743.7
52 AL Hassett Aus 69 3073 46.56 743.2
53 MD Crowe NZ 131 5444 45.37 741.8
54 FMM Worrell WI 87 3860 49.49 741.4
55 ER Dexter Eng 102 4502 47.89 741.0
56 MA Atherton Eng 212 7728 37.70 740.8
57 AR Morris Aus 79 3533 46.49 739.3
58 IR Redpath Aus 120 4737 43.46 737.2
59 MJ Slater Aus 131 5312 42.84 737.2
60 G Kirsten SA 153 6058 42.96 737.1



name country innings runs average rating
61 Salim Malik Pak 154 5768 43.70 736.2
62 MP Vaughan Eng 45 2004 47.71 732.6
63 GM Turner NZ 73 2991 44.64 732.6
64 M Azharuddin Ind 147 6215 45.04 731.5
65 SM Nurse WI 54 2523 47.60 730.0
66 TW Graveney Eng 123 4882 44.38 729.0
67 JH Edrich Eng 127 5138 43.54 728.9
68 PA de Silva SL 159 6361 42.98 722.8
69 B Mitchell SA 80 3471 48.89 721.3
70 DJ Cullinan SA 115 4554 44.21 720.1


name country innings runs average rating
71 S Chanderpaul WI 101 3863 44.40 719.0
72 DB Vengsarkar Ind 185 6868 42.13 716.5
73 AW Grieg Eng 93 3599 40.44 714.9
74 RC Fredericks WI 109 4334 42.49 714.7
75 GP Thorpe Eng 140 5109 41.88 714.7
76 RA Smith Eng 112 4236 43.67 711.3
77 SJ McCabe Aus 62 2748 48.21 710.8
78 IM Chappell Aus 136 5345 42.42 708.8
79 DM Jones Aus 89 3631 46.55 705.1
80 CC McDonald Aus 83 3107 39.33 701.7


name country innings runs average rating
81 HH Gibbs SA 69 2805 41.87 700.7
82 JL Langer Aus 93 3775 42.90 700.4
83 NC O'Neill Aus 69 2779 45.56 700.2
84 Hanif Mohammad Pak 97 3915 43.99 698.6
85 RM Cowper Aus 46 2061 46.84 698.6
86 CC Hunte WI 78 3245 45.07 697.7
87 EJ Barlow SA 57 2516 45.75 696.1
88 VS Hazare Ind 52 2192 47.65 692.1
89 DL Amiss Eng 88 3612 46.31 691.8
90 Zaheer Abbas Pak 124 5062 44.80 688.6


name country innings runs average rating
91 JG Wright NZ 148 5334 37.83 686.4
92 KC Wessels Aus/SA 71 2788 41.00 684.8
93 VVS Laxman Ind 68 2660 43.61 678.5
94 DJ McGlew SA 64 2440 42.07 680.1
95 BF Butcher WI 78 3104 43.11 679.1
96 KJ Hughes Aus 124 4415 37.42 678.4
97 C Hill Aus 89 3412 39.22 676.7
98 M Amarnath Ind 113 4378 42.50 675.6
99 WH Ponsford Aus 48 2122 48.23 675.2
100 WM Woodfull Aus 54 2300 46.00 672.7

Bowling

1 M Muralitharan SL 78 437 23.53 1320.4
2 RJ Hadlee NZ 86 431 22.30 1232.9
3 SF Barnes Eng 27 189 16.43 1209.3
4 SK Warne Aus 107 491 25.71 1195.8
5 CV Grimmett Aus 37 216 24.22 1184.8
6 GD McGrath Aus 90 420 21.36 1158.4
7 DK Lillee Aus 70 355 23.92 1153.1
8 MD Marshall WI 81 376 20.95 1143.2
9 Imran Khan Pak 88 362 22.81 1123.7
10 CA Walsh WI 132 519 24.44 1115.8


name country matches wickets average rating
11 WJ O'Reilly Aus 27 144 22.60 1111.1
12 CEL Ambrose WI 98 405 20.99 1109.4
13 AA Donald SA 72 330 22.25 1097.8
14 A Kumble Ind 76 349 27.98 1087.0
15 Wasim Akram Pak 104 414 23.62 1084.4
16 FS Trueman Eng 67 307 21.58 1082.2
17 Waqar Younis Pak 84 364 23.29 1065.0
18 IT Botham Eng 102 383 28.40 1029.7
19 J Garner WI 58 259 20.98 1025.1
20 SM Pollock SA 66 270 20.85 1018.7


name country matches wickets average rating
21 GA Lohmann Aus 18 112 10.76 1016.1
22 AV Bedser Eng 51 236 24.90 1010.6
23 CTB Turner Aus 17 101 16.53 998.8
24 CJ McDermott Aus 71 291 28.63 990.3
25 BA Reid Aus 27 113 24.64 986.2
26 D Gough Eng 56 228 27.58 984.8
27 Kapil Dev Ind 131 434 29.65 979.9
28 HJ Tayfield SA 27 170 25.91 974.0
29 MA Holding WI 60 249 23.69 960.5
30 BS Chandrasekhar Ind 58 242 29.75 956.4


name country matches wickets average rating
31 BS Bedi Ind 67 266 28.17 954.1
32 Saqlain Mushtaq Pak 45 198 28.12 952.4
33 RGD Willis Eng 90 325 25.20 951.7
34 R Peel Eng 20 102 16.81 944.2
35 JC Laker Eng 46 193 21.25 939.8
36 AK Davidson Aus 44 186 20.53 938.7
37 Fazal Mahmood Pak 34 139 24.71 938.4
38 GD McKenzie Aus 60 246 29.79 936.6
39 LR Gibbs WI 79 309 29.09 936.4
40 TM Alderman Aus 41 170 27.15 928.9


name country matches wickets average rating
41 MW Tate Eng 39 155 26.16 926.3
42 CEH Croft WI 27 125 23.30 926.0
43 MG Hughes Aus 53 212 28.38 924.8
44 AME Roberts WI 47 202 25.61 919.5
45 RR Lindwall Aus 61 228 23.03 916.8
46 R Benaud Aus 63 248 27.03 913.0
47 GF Lawson Aus 46 180 30.56 909.6
48 JR Thomson Aus 51 200 28.01 907.5
49 ARC Fraser Eng 46 177 27.32 905.6
50 DL Underwood Eng 86 297 25.84 903.1


name country matches wickets average rating
51 JA Snow Eng 49 202 26.67 901.7
52 JB Statham Eng 70 252 24.85 898.8
53 WA Johnston Aus 40 160 23.91 896.0
54 Harbhajan Singh Ind 31 139 26.88 893.8
55 WW Hall WI 48 192 26.39 894.1
56 IR Bishop WI 43 161 24.29 893.6
57 C Blythe Eng 19 100 18.63 893.1
58 AR Caddick Eng 60 220 30.03 891.8
59 H Trumble Aus 32 141 21.79 887.7
60 CL Cairns NZ 55 197 28.81 878.9


name country matches wickets average rating
61 Abdul Qadir Pak 67 236 32.81 877.9
62 MHN Walker Aus 34 138 27.48 873.2
63 Mushtaq Ahmed Pak 50 183 32.25 866.0
64 PM Pollock SA 28 116 24.19 862.6
65 SP Gupte Ind 36 149 29.55 859.9
66 NAT Ad**** SA 26 104 21.11 859.0
67 HH Streak Zim 51 180 26.97 853.7
68 MH Mankad Ind 44 162 32.32 844.0
69 J Briggs Eng 33 118 17.75 842.4
70 H Verity Eng 40 144 24.38 838.4


name country matches wickets average rating
71 DG Cork Eng 37 131 29.82 836.6
72 J Srinath Ind 67 236 30.47 835.6
73 EAS Prasanna Ind 49 189 30.38 833.4
74 KR Miller Aus 55 170 22.98 831.6
75 GAR Lock Eng 49 174 25.58 830.6
76 G Giffen Aus 31 103 27.10 828.5
77 Iqbal Qasim Pak 50 171 28.11 825.1
78 M Dillon WI 30 112 30.45 823.4
79 JN Gillespie Aus 37
137 26.18 822.9
80 S Ramadhin WI 43 158 28.98 821.0


name country matches wickets average rating
81 DK Morrison NZ 48 160 34.68 818.8
82 AL Valentine WI 36 139 30.32 816.3
83 B Yardley Aus 33 126 31.63 813.6
84 WPUJC Vaas SL 64 206 30.31 813.6
85 BR Taylor NZ 30 111 26.60 808.6
86 GR Dilley Eng 41 138 29.76 805.3
87 DR Doshi Ind 33 114 30.72 803.3
88 JH Wardle Eng 28 102 20.39 787.3
89 Sarfraz Nawaz Pak 55 177 32.76 787.2
90 AA Mallett Aus 38 132 29.85 778.0


name country matches wickets average rating
91 DL Vettori NZ 42 139 33.86 772.9
92 GG Arnold Eng 34 115 28.30 765.1
93 DA Allen Eng 39 122 30.98 758.6
94 CM Old Eng 46 143 28.11 757.6
95 AN Connolly Aus 29 102 29.23 755.8
96 DVP Wright Eng 34 108 39.11 748.4
97 RO Collinge NZ 35 116 29.25 746.2
98 PR Adams SA 36 106 31.63 738.4
99 PAJ Defreitas Eng 44 140 33.57 736.7
100 RM Hogg Aus 38 123 28.45 730.1

source was wisden.com, which is giving free three month trials at the moment.

[Wicked Lester]

OK - I too am really confused as to how the rankings were compiled.

It appears longevity is overstated as a factor.

To raise a couple - Without trying to downplay Border's greatness I regard Greg Chappell as Australia's number 2 and probably Neil Harvey as number 3.

Steve Waugh above Walter Hammond? Come on.

Needless to say one could go on and on.....

[Jim Boy]

It's a little hard to say exactly what the criteria are, but I know that some weighting is given those who have/had little support. For example Murali and Hadlee benefitted under this.

[RogerC]

From the short report on the list I heard on the radio, it appears a major consideration when compiling the list was relative worth to the player's country, which of course sends Murali and Hadlee skyrocketing in importance, and probably puts them too high IMO.

And of course it puts Border higher than he might have been; although I think his worth to our national team is routinely underrated. Though he wasn't as good a batsman as Chappell, or Harvey, he resurrected our test team virtually single-handedly. And that lifts his relative worth.

I suppose the sheer number of Walsh's wickets puts him so high, as I can think of no other reason for him to be ahead of Ambrose or Garner, or Holding.


And could Darren Gough really be the 26th best bowler ever?? Caddick ahead of Abdul Qadir??? Cork in the top 100???

[bunsen burner]

What a joke. Wisden have lost any credibility that I previously held them in.

[Rooboy 34]

Originally posted by wagstaff
And without looking at his stats in-depth, his record would probably be much more impressive at home then overseas.

Were the teams he played against taken into consideration. For statistical purposes, bowling to Bangladesh & Zimbabwe like Muralitharan has done hardly compares to someone like say Dennis Lillee who bowled to players such as Richards, Lloyd, Gower etc...

[hourn]

Had a look on the web-site, and had a look at their criteria, and it looks like they have most bases covered, however, i think they may have weighted a few things the wrong way.

There is no way Bill Ponsford is 99 in the batting and Miller at 76 in the bowling is a disgrace to one of the finest opening bowlers ever.

They definetaly have to have a look at the way their ranking system is used.

[Becker]

What pills are the Wisden people popping? They must be powerful stuff. The top 10 batting is sort of okay, but the top 10 bowlers list is an absolute joke.
Muri takes most of his wickets on the sub continent against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

[markstaners]

Originally posted by Zombie
Lara is lucky to be there, sure he has the highest Test and First Class scores ever but he was a batsman that never really lived up to his full potential.

Steve Waugh should have his spot.

Yeah and why isn't Bevan there, seriously there are about a million better than Steve Waugh he is a hack.

Muralitharan is very lucky to be no 1, Anil Kumble would have to find himself very unlucky and Donald, and Ambrose the two most feared bowlers of the 90's miss out.

5,6,7 are bloody lucky and Gavaskar and Lara should be bumped up to 5+6.

[TheMase]

24 ML Hayden Aus 60 2977 53.16 825.6

Number 24?

[peejay]

Before you all shout me down i will state that bradman is without the best batsmen ever.

But how much better? Not as much as everything thinks.

Does his ave of 99 compared to say tendulkar of 58 give him too much of an advantage.

He only ever played in Australia and England 33 in Oz 19 in England - 63 % of tests at home. Therefore he never played on the wickets in Pakistan, India, West Indes etc. He played agaisnt Sth Afr, West indies and India in th 1930's - something like playing agaisnt Bangladesh today and averaged 140 againt them - this would inflate his average.

Rather than compare averages i think if we rate him at 100/100 (as the best) then tendulkar would rate at about 90. I think that is fairer.

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by markstaners
Yeah and why isn't Bevan there, seriously there are about a million better than Steve Waugh he is a hack.


Bevan? Bwahahahaha Bwahahahahaha!

These Michael Bevan supporters just crack me up. I don't think they will ever admit that he can't cope with short bowling at international level.

As for Steve Waugh? You really do have no idea. This guy was ranked the world's #1 batsman for a number of years ahead of both Tendulker and Lara. He was not only a fine batsman, but one of the finest all-round cricketers to ever play the game:

- Test batting average of 50
- 89 test wickets
- a shiitload more ODI wickets
- won a World Cup off his own bat (he is the only cricketer in history to do that one)
- changed the direction of test cricket almost single-handedly
- has the best captaincy record in the history of test cricket

There are not too many people who can compare to this guy, and that also goes for his batting average alone.

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by peejay
Before you all shout me down i will state that bradman is without the best batsmen ever.

But how much better? Not as much as everything thinks.

Does his ave of 99 compared to say tendulkar of 58 give him too much of an advantage.

He only ever played in Australia and England 33 in Oz 19 in England - 63 % of tests at home. Therefore he never played on the wickets in Pakistan, India, West Indes etc. He played agaisnt Sth Afr, West indies and India in th 1930's - something like playing agaisnt Bangladesh today and averaged 140 againt them - this would inflate his average.

Rather than compare averages i think if we rate him at 100/100 (as the best) then tendulkar would rate at about 90. I think that is fairer. You can only compete against what you are served up. Bradman was twice as good as the next guy during his time, Tendulker is not.

If Bradman equals 100, then Tendulker equals 60.

[dr nick]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
Bevan? Bwahahahaha Bwahahahahaha!

These Michael Bevan supporters just crack me up. I don't think they will ever admit that he can't cope with short bowling at international level.

As for Steve Waugh? You really do have no idea. This guy was ranked the world's #1 batsman for a number of years ahead of both Tendulker and Lara. He was not only a fine batsman, but one of the finest all-round cricketers to ever play the game:

- Test batting average of 50
- 89 test wickets
- a shiitload more ODI wickets
- won a World Cup off his own bat (he is the only cricketer in history to do that one)
- changed the direction of test cricket almost single-handedly
- has the best captaincy record in the history of test cricket

There are not too many people who can compare to this guy, and that also goes for his batting average alone.

spot on with your steve waugh comments. i have come across so many halfwits whose memory only spans a mere 10-15 tests.

as for michael bevan, that susceptible to the short ball theory is a bit outdated. you dont average 60+ for the last few years in the pura cup without being able to play anything short.

[dr nick]

Originally posted by peejay
Before you all shout me down i will state that bradman is without the best batsmen ever.

But how much better? Not as much as everything thinks.

Does his ave of 99 compared to say tendulkar of 58 give him too much of an advantage.

He only ever played in Australia and England 33 in Oz 19 in England - 63 % of tests at home. Therefore he never played on the wickets in Pakistan, India, West Indes etc. He played agaisnt Sth Afr, West indies and India in th 1930's - something like playing agaisnt Bangladesh today and averaged 140 againt them - this would inflate his average.

Rather than compare averages i think if we rate him at 100/100 (as the best) then tendulkar would rate at about 90. I think that is fairer.

pfft... then why dont you only consider tendulkar's average only at home?? even then he is way short of the mark.

SR Tendulkar in India: ave 64.52 (played lots against SL in the early 90's.. 7 tests.. very weak, 5 tests against zimbabwe also)
DG Bradman in Australia: 99.22

not even close

[peejay]

Originally posted by nicko18
pfft... then why dont you only consider tendulkar's average only at home?? even then he is way short of the mark.

SR Tendulkar in India: ave 64.52 (played lots against SL in the early 90's.. 7 tests.. very weak, 5 tests against zimbabwe also)
DG Bradman in Australia: 99.22

not even close

As I thought - missed the point altogether.

[peejay]

Bradman was never truely yested at test level agaisnt quality spin bowling on turning wickets.

It is the only question mark hanging over his career.

[dr nick]

Originally posted by peejay
As I thought - missed the point altogether.

your point was that tendulkar has a lower average coz he has to play on traks he did not grow up on, and its true. but still nowhere near bradmans. you can try and twist it any way you like but you are clearly not going to prove tendulkar is even close. not surprisingly your "90" rating of tendulkar is just a baseless pluck out of thin air.

[dr nick]

Originally posted by peejay
Bradman was never truely yested at test level agaisnt quality spin bowling on turning wickets.

It is the only question mark hanging over his career.

again, something twisted entirely towards your bias of tendulkar, who grows up in regions entirely conducive to spin and turn.

i could equally as validly say tendlukar was never tested on uncovered pitches without a helmet

[peejay]

So are you saying average is everything - if not then believe it or not you are agreeing with me.

[peejay]

Bradman clearly is the greatest batsmen who has ever lived - i said that in my original post.

[peejay]

Originally posted by nicko18
again, something twisted entirely towards your bias of tendulkar, who grows up in regions entirely conducive to spin and turn.

i could equally as validly say tendlukar was never tested on uncovered pitches without a helmet


Actually tendulkar was a example i used - my theory applies to any of the greats - lets say the top ten in anyones book.

[dr nick]

ok, im in no mood to argue

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by Rooboy 34
Were the teams he played against taken into consideration. For statistical purposes, bowling to Bangladesh & Zimbabwe like Muralitharan has done hardly compares to someone like say Dennis Lillee who bowled to players such as Richards, Lloyd, Gower etc...

While people often question Bradman's record by saying that he only ever played in England and Australia, Lillee's record isn't that much different. All but 28 of Lillee's Test wickets were taken either in Australia or England.

In particular Lillee's record in sub-continent has little of substance. He never got the chance to tour India and his tour of Pakistan in 1979/80 was a disaster - he took 3 wickets at over 100. Admittedly the pitches were tailored to suit spinners but I always thought it was a black mark against Lillee's name that he made himself unavailable to tour Pakistan in 1982 because of this.



He never got a wicket in the West Indies because he broke down in his only series there - although he did take wickets in WSC cricket there and most likely done well had he been able to play there.

But his virtual non-existant record on the sub-continent is the great weakness in his record.

Compare this with McGrath - on spinning pitches in India he has managed to take 19 wickets at 18 in four Tests - a record few fast bowlers of recent times could match. His records in Pakistan (averaging 31) and Sri Lanka (averaging 29) are less impressive but still more then adequate for a fast bowler on these pitches.

For this reason, I think Wisden's rating of McGrath above Lillee is the correct one.

[fabulousphil]

A lot of the things i was going to say have already been mentioned................. but IMO Micheal Holding at no 28 (i think ) is a disgrace, this guy was simply poetry in motion, an absolutely fantastic fast bowler.

WTF are they doing at Wisden..... me thinks to many long lunches.

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by fabulousphil
but IMO Micheal Holding at no 28 (i think ) , this guy was simply poetry in motion

I guess that's the problem with statistical analysis like Wisden has done. The gracefulness of Holding's celebrated action wouldn't be given any consideration at all.

[fabulousphil]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
Bevan? Bwahahahaha Bwahahahahaha!

These Michael Bevan supporters just crack me up. I don't think they will ever admit that he can't cope with short bowling at international level.

As for Steve Waugh? You really do have no idea. This guy was ranked the world's #1 batsman for a number of years ahead of both Tendulker and Lara. He was not only a fine batsman, but one of the finest all-round cricketers to ever play the game:

- Test batting average of 50
- 89 test wickets
- a shiitload more ODI wickets
- won a World Cup off his own bat (he is the only cricketer in history to do that one)
- changed the direction of test cricket almost single-handedly
- has the best captaincy record in the history of test cricket

There are not too many people who can compare to this guy, and that also goes for his batting average alone.

Agree totally with you about S Waugh, the guy is one tough cookie, although i took a couple of years to warm to him and kept thinking he was certain to fail, he kept proving me wrong.

Bevan though is a very good one dayer, great average and can sum up a situation quickly, although is not a huge hitter of the ball he places it well in the middle of the innings.

[acuguy]

Look i just can't argue over this other stuff, i am stuck with murali being rated number one, he chucks plain and simple, him being named number one in our great game ANGERS ME, i don't easily get angry, sort of makes a mockery of cricket and makes me wonder why we watch it and play it.

The rest of the ratings are just arguments and opinions, god wisden might think they are the bible for cricket, but really they are not, just some more opinions, we have arguments on all peoples behalfs but it is a tedious process.

Lets just rag murali and his bowling instead

[DaveW]

Originally posted by acuguy

The rest of the ratings are just arguments and opinions, god wisden might think they are the bible for cricket, but really they are not, just some more opinions, we have arguments on all peoples behalfs but it is a tedious process.

Indeed. I hope wisden lose this moniker over time. Because they clearly don't deserve it.

[dr nick]

Originally posted by acuguy
Look i just can't argue over this other stuff, i am stuck with murali being rated number one, he chucks plain and simple, him being named number one in our great game ANGERS ME, i don't easily get angry, sort of makes a mockery of cricket and makes me wonder why we watch it and play it.

well said. how can a guy be cleared of chucking... end of story.

whatsmore, his action was scrutinised in a closed net session (very easy i would have thought to change your action without actually bowling to a batsman). from this closed net session analysis, he is able to bowl without question in tests and one dayers.

we had a similar situation at school. we had a fast bowler who went under the GPS review committee to investigate his action. his action was viewed at every which angle in a net session. all he did was bowl off 5 steps and at half pace and "voila" he was cleared.

its all a complete disgrace. this guy will probably amass 1000 test wickets and take more than my lifetime to be beaten purely because the ICC wants to play politics.

[Brett Li]

Originally posted by wagstaff
I guess that's the problem with statistical analysis like Wisden has done. The gracefulness of Holding's celebrated action wouldn't be given any consideration at all.

Where as I agree with Holding the bowler, what has gracefulness got to do with it? either he was good (and he was) or he wasn't!.

If you want grace, I recommend an old Torville and Dean video....

[Nige_Bix]

Bradman played in the era when they didnt cover wickets so he would have come across a few dodgy ones along the way and didnt wear the protective equipment that they do today.

He is by the best IMHO

Murali - #1 - a joke!! - I agree with many of the views already expressed

[ajackett110]

Originally posted by dezzmo
Bradman played in the era when they didnt cover wickets so he would have come across a few dodgy ones along the way and didnt wear the protective equipment that they do today.

He is by the best IMHO

Murali - #1 - a joke!! - I agree with many of the views already expressed


Just think it is weird that Murali is ranked #1, despite McGrath being ahead of him in current rankings since their debuts, pretty much. At the moment, McGrath is still ranked ahead of Murali who is at #2, so why are they now saying Murali is the best ever despite never being #1 in "current player" rankings???

[hourn]

Originally posted by ajackett110
Just think it is weird that Murali is ranked #1, despite McGrath being ahead of him in current rankings since their debuts, pretty much. At the moment, McGrath is still ranked ahead of Murali who is at #2, so why are they now saying Murali is the best ever despite never being #1 in "current player" rankings???

they are ranked by different organizations.

the current rankings are done by PriceWaterhouseCoopers and Wisden did these all time lists.

[hourn]

Originally posted by dezzmo
Bradman played in the era when they didnt cover wickets so he would have come across a few dodgy ones along the way and didnt wear the protective equipment that they do today.

He is by the best IMHO


THe wickets in those days were generally considered to be better than today, except when it rained and the wicket would turn to mud. Hence the expression "Sticky Wicket"

I think in everyones honest opinion Bradman is the best ;)

there are no holes you can poke in his record to suggest there was a better batsmen than him.