Coache's priorities

[TheDon35]

Interesting that Knights mentioned on numerous occasions when he was appaointed that his key priority was improving the skill level at the club.

I know things don't change over night but you'd have to say that if that has been his and the coaching staff's priorty then they've failed misserably.

I won't go through them all but our skill level is still pathetic and close to the bottom 3 in the league.

[Enki]

http://www.angryflower.com/aposter3.jpg


Also, in a totally unrelated segue I'd just like to relate my anger and disappointment about Essendon picking Skipworth up, VFL level hack.

Also, we won't at all miss Welsh as he is a dud.

That is all.

[thebigboy]

http://www.angryflower.com/aposter3.jpg


Also, in a totally unrelated segue I'd just like to relate my anger and disappointment about Essendon picking Skipworth up, VFL level hack.

Also, we won't at all miss Welsh as he is a dud.

That is all.

Fair enough.

[Ben the Gooner]

http://www.angryflower.com/aposter3.jpg


Also, in a totally unrelated segue I'd just like to relate my anger and disappointment about Essendon picking Skipworth up, VFL level hack.

Also, we won't at all miss Welsh as he is a dud.

That is all.

Started so well, finished so poorly.

[Enki]

Started so well, finished so poorly.

You mean it wasn't funny? Or I didn't make it clear enough that my comments were just a parody of some of TheDon35's hilariously inaccurate/over-critical statements?

[Ben the Gooner]

I'm sorry, I'm so tired I didn't even pick it up.:o

[bipolarbeaR]

It's not you Ben, It's me.. wait a minute...

Things don't just happen over Knight, but they will happen Don35.

HEEEEEEEEEEY MACARENA! Sorry, painted my room this afternoon, red and black and I am more hypo than a nine year old on red cordial and helium!

[Spikey]

Also, in a totally unrelated segue I'd just like to relate my anger and disappointment about Essendon picking Skipworth up, VFL level hack.

Also, we won't at all miss Welsh as he is a dud.

That is all.

We can always replace Welsh with Slatts can't we?

No?

Ok, what about with Winderlich?

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

Interesting that Knights mentioned on numerous occasions when he was appaointed that his key priority was improving the skill level at the club.

I know things don't change over night but you'd have to say that if that has been his and the coaching staff's priorty then they've failed misserably.

I won't go through them all but our skill level is still pathetic and close to the bottom 3 in the league.

I'd put more blame on the personnel rather than Knights.

[Lance Uppercut]

You mean it wasn't funny? Or I didn't make it clear enough that my comments were just a parody of some of TheDon35's hilariously inaccurate/over-critical statements?

thank christ, I was sure that's how you meant it

[Ben the Gooner]

thank christ, I was sure that's how you meant it

It would have been much easier if I waited, then referred to my sig.:D

[ant555]

Interesting that Knights mentioned on numerous occasions when he was appaointed that his key priority was improving the skill level at the club.

I know things don't change over night but you'd have to say that if that has been his and the coaching staff's priorty then they've failed misserably.

I won't go through them all but our skill level is still pathetic and close to the bottom 3 in the league.

I know they have done a heap of skills work over summer. That is a fact.
Not sure how you can hold Knights responsible for poorly skilled players picked up in drafts before he was coach or had a say.
Skills are skills. You can only ever improve them by 10 to 15% at most.
It works out that if you are drafting players who have a kicking eff of 60% then chances are you are only going to end up with an average skilled player.

It is a fact that you can only make limited changes to a players kicking style. The muscle in the leg are conditioned through how kids learn to kick from juniors. If they have a slightly faulty action it is too late to change it by time they are 18.

[daffo]

I hate when people like Nash, Houli, Fletcher etc make simple kicking errors, as I believe these sort of players have the best kicks in our side. They seem at times not 100% sure whether to kick or handpass, then make mistake due to rushing their kicks.
Hopefully another year getting used to the new game plan will get our kicking efficiencey up.

[stugots]

poor skill levels are the unfortunate legacy of poor drafting over too many years

best we can hope from knights for now is that he has the courage of his convictions & continues to clear out the deadwood when necessary & keep pushing the youth bandwagon

[kelvin_sheedy]

I hate when people like Nash, Houli, Fletcher etc make simple kicking errors, as I believe these sort of players have the best kicks in our side. They seem at times not 100% sure whether to kick or handpass, then make mistake due to rushing their kicks.
Hopefully another year getting used to the new game plan will get our kicking efficiencey up.

Fletcher?? :confused:

[efcboy]

neagle - very good kick for goal.

dyson - i'm sure ant would concur his skill level has improved significantly in his last two outings.

gumby - we haven't seen enough to judge.

watson - has definitely improved his skills both with hand and foot over the last 18 months.

stanton - certainly hasn't gone backwards. if anything his foot skills have improved.

monfries - skill level is ok but tends to play with too much flair which often results in errors. needs to be disciplined again to reduce this (this is happening)

jetta - reasonable skills (doesn't miss many targets when he has the ball)

winderlich - skills have improved significantly in recent years.

prismall - skilled player recruited to club under knights.

mcveigh - skills have improved under knights. took his game to a new level before injury curtailed in 08.

zaharakis - skilled player recruited to club under knights.

welsh - skill level improved in midfield in 08.

lovett - skills have looked good in pre-season 09.

lonergan - work in progress.

dempsey - has decent skills. his turnovers are not normally skill related but decision making ie being run down.

nash - has decent skills. again decision making not always the best.

lloyd - good at field and goal kicking.

hille - his foot skills around the ground cannot be questioned.

slattery - average skills. needs to be worked on.

skipworth - reasonable skills, good goalkicker.

hurley - skilled player recruited to club under knights.

myers - skilled player recruited to club under knights.

j.williams - has ok skills but doesn't get it enough.

lucas - with age he is declining but still a good shot on goal.

hooker - ordinary skills need to be worked on.

laycock - reasonable kick of the footy for a ruckman.

daniher - reasonable skills still being worked on.

davey - very skilful.

ryder - great kick.

fletcher - skills as good as ever.

mcphee - skills ok, decision making needs improving.

magin - skills ok, doesn't get it enough.

still - don't know.

t.slattery - skilled player recruited to club under knights.

reimers - has excellent skills developed under knights.

atkinson - skills are reasonable, decision making not always the best.

hocking - skills average, still being worked on. did show improvement last match.

lovett-murray - skills are reasonable, decision making not always the best.

houli - a decent left foot kick. skills aren't an issue.

bellchambers - needs to work on his skills but what raw ruckmen doesn't?!

overall i think knights has done a reasonable job improving the players skills. the bigger priority now is getting all the players up to speed on the game plan to reduce poor decision making. perhaps a more mobile target than lucas currently may reduced turnovers also - we can only pray that gumby gets right.

[FandangoDingo]

I know they have done a heap of skills work over summer. That is a fact.
Not sure how you can hold Knights responsible for poorly skilled players picked up in drafts before he was coach or had a say.
Skills are skills. You can only ever improve them by 10 to 15% at most.
It works out that if you are drafting players who have a kicking eff of 60% then chances are you are only going to end up with an average skilled player.

It is a fact that you can only make limited changes to a players kicking style. The muscle in the leg are conditioned through how kids learn to kick from juniors. If they have a slightly faulty action it is too late to change it by time they are 18.

I disagree with the bolded statement. IMO, if you're prepared to put the hard yards in practice, skill improvements greater than 15% are possible.... not that a 15% improvement would be insignificant!

I'd be more inclined to say that a footballer's "physical" attributes, such as speed, strength, awareness and ability to read the play, have more limitations to improvement than a player's skills.

Practice, practice, practice!!! :thumbsu: You CAN teach old dogs new tricks. It's just more difficult and takes greater application... and more practice.

Geelong have taught Tom Hawkins a new running style this summer to protect his foot. Balme said Hawkins had undertaken a program that addressed "how he runs, how he kicks, etcetera."

Many golfers have re-learned their swing well after the age of 18, and I'd suggest that a golfer's swing is more deeply grooved in muscle-memory than a footballer's kick (There are far more variables in football than a golf swing - still/motionless ball, set-up each shot as desired/in your own time, it's basically one "swing" with which you use different clubs Vs the myriad of scenarios a footballer encounters when disposing of a football).

I think it really comes down to the amount of practice a player is prepared to do, coupled with the level of expertise/advice/coaching they receive.

[efcboy]

tom hawkins is not a very good example - his kicking was atrocious on friday night! ian baker-finch tried to re-invent his swing with disastrous results and lost all confidence.

i tend to agree with ant - kicking skills are learnt at a young age. its very difficult to turn a right footer into a left footer and vice versa for this reason. there's no doubt that training should improve it but in a way it becomes intrinsic. when players start thinking about it too much it puts them off - think of richo kicking for goal. like golfers half the battle is in your head to calm your nerves.

[FandangoDingo]

tom hawkins is not a very good example - his kicking was atrocious on friday night! ian baker-finch tried to re-invent his swing with disastrous results and lost all confidence.

i tend to agree with ant - kicking skills are learnt at a young age. its very difficult to turn a right footer into a left footer and vice versa for this reason. there's no doubt that training should improve it but in a way it becomes intrinsic. when players start thinking about it too much it puts them off - think of richo kicking for goal. like golfers half the battle is in your head to calm your nerves.

I'm pretty sure IBF's confidence and game started to deteriorate before he started tinkering with his swing. The tinkering was the response to his game going to the shizenhausen.

I think it's a little early to judge the Tommahawk. If he plays 18+ games this year, then i think his skill re-learning, with regard to preserving his foot, could be deemed a success.

I guess my point is that, as with strength, fitness, endurance, decision making, confidence and poise, all facets that clearly develop with time, work and experience, skills can certainly be developed after 18 years of age.

I think there would be very few elite AFL players that haven't significantly improved their skills since the age of 18.

The clubs certainly believe skills are coach-able, so I just think it's a bit of a cop-out to say they aren't, especially if it's a clearly stated goal of our coach. Why put it out there in the public arena as a stated goal if it's not considered possible??

Skills as a percentage are pretty difficult to measure. Is anyone playing AFL at "0% skills"? Anyone at 100%? A 15% difference in skills could well be the difference between a top 4 team and those a long way off the pace.

[Shane Hird]

I regards to our below standard kicking skills- not every player is as natural and as fluent with their footskills as say a Mark Mercuri.

A good kick is a good kick. No league player can be on a list these days without being a powerful,accurate passer of the ball.

We just havn't gelled as a team yet. We are constantly attempting 30-35mtr passes and not hitting targets. Lack of confidence with alot of our younger players imo. A dozen of the them are still learning to play at the rapid pace of league footy.

In my mind, the jury is still out on Knights.

I am looking forward to seeing how he deals with out of form players. We can't afford to have a Skipworth running around and playing like sh-t and Knighta letting him play for six weeks..

[Lance Uppercut]

In my mind, the jury is still out on Knights.

I am looking forward to seeing how he deals with out of form players. We can't afford to have a Skipworth running around and playing like sh-t and Knighta letting him play for six weeks..


what an odd comment...

[ant555]

I disagree with the bolded statement. IMO, if you're prepared to put the hard yards in practice, skill improvements greater than 15% are possible.... not that a 15% improvement would be insignificant!

I'd be more inclined to say that a footballer's "physical" attributes, such as speed, strength, awareness and ability to read the play, have more limitations to improvement than a player's skills.

Practice, practice, practice!!! :thumbsu: You CAN teach old dogs new tricks. It's just more difficult and takes greater application... and more practice.

Geelong have taught Tom Hawkins a new running style this summer to protect his foot. Balme said Hawkins had undertaken a program that addressed "how he runs, how he kicks, etcetera."

Many golfers have re-learned their swing well after the age of 18, and I'd suggest that a golfer's swing is more deeply grooved in muscle-memory than a footballer's kick (There are far more variables in football than a golf swing - still/motionless ball, set-up each shot as desired/in your own time, it's basically one "swing" with which you use different clubs Vs the myriad of scenarios a footballer encounters when disposing of a football).

I think it really comes down to the amount of practice a player is prepared to do, coupled with the level of expertise/advice/coaching they receive.

I work in the TAC Cup area and it is what it is. Kids coming out of TAC Cup have a 10% to 15% improvement on skills at the most, particulary kicking.
It is different for the average kid who is not involved in an elite system. There is bigger margin for improvement there.

This is not something i have just made up as an observation. It is widely discussed at TAC Cup level and often drives TAC Cup coaches in sane when they come across kids who can play but where poorly coached early on and have poor kicking skills.
The muscles in your leg do actually train themselves to kick the same way so if you are not taught to kick properly early then you tend to kick across from right to left rather than straight through. It is not something that can be rectified.
You sight the Hawkins case well like someone else has said he is still kicking badly. I will bring up Bradley. They spent two years of special training for his kicking. They filmed him they got him coming in slowly trying to re align his kicking action but it did not work as under pressure he went back to the same style every time. Freo also did a lot of work with him in his first year over there and it is still the same.

[Andre 2000]

Absolutely agree Ant.

It's interesting that the Swans draft for good decision makers as a rule. They have never been fussed about acquiring top draft picks. But develop their kids quite well and seem to always be playing finals footy.

Is decision making more important in modern day footy, where breaking down zones is becoming the norm?

Jay Nash is a fair example. Good kicking skills on the track. But a lack of confidence at times causes him to panic and make the wrong decision in the heat of battle. (I hope he starts to believe in himself a bit more this season)

[daffo]

best we can hope from knights for now is that he has the courage of his convictions & continues to clear out the deadwood when necessary & keep pushing the youth bandwagon

This goes directly AGAINST why he was picked as coach. Knights said that our side was good enough to get into the eight with the current squad where as other people going for the job (eg : Hardwick) said that we would have to cull the list and wait until the new kids come through.

[ant555]

This goes directly AGAINST why he was picked as coach. Knights said that our side was good enough to get into the eight with the current squad where as other people going for the job (eg : Hardwick) said that we would have to cull the list and wait until the new kids come through.

That depends on how you want to read it.
When Knights got the job he was pleased with the quality and potential of the young kids. Thats what he was bullish about. He did not say he was not going to keep clearing out the list.
In fact one of the first things he said was he wanted to get games into the young players.
The difference was Hardwicke suggested that maybe we would have to look at clearing out a LLoyd or Lucas for draft picks. Clearing out Lloyd , Lucas or Fletcher is not clearing dead wood.
Kinghts thought that it would do more damage to morale than it would give improvement at a later date.
Knights never said he was happy with the whole list.
Our side is currently just good enough to make the 8 if we don't have injuries.
Its not a top 4 list and thats why a few more players need to be turned over.

Why do people get sucked into a few selective quotes and belive they are the facts when a lot more was said about the topic ?

[stugots]

This goes directly AGAINST why he was picked as coach. Knights said that our side was good enough to get into the eight with the current squad where as other people going for the job (eg : Hardwick) said that we would have to cull the list and wait until the new kids come through.

we really dont want to go down that road again, as hardwick was always my 1st choice for the gig, but at this point would the place look much different if he had been given the job?

methinks not

[willie dick]

There is no doubt the jury is still out on Knights. Hopefully we see genuine improvement this eason which in itself may be difficult to quantify.

However, according to the Chairman, as can be seen by his quotes below his expectations ae reasonably clear.

He expects Essendon to finish between eighth and 10th in 2009, a top five or six team in 2010, improve again in 2011 and challenge for the flag in 2012.
"In 2012, I reckon we can give it a real hiding," Horsburgh said.
"Go back and look at Hawthorn's history, it's not unlike what we're trying to model.
"Two and a half years ago the papers were saying Kennett wanted to sack Clarkson and they won a flag and they did it by sticking with youth."

[TheDon35]

Sorry about the Typo in the title. Most people here are already aware that my grammar is shocking.:D

[TheDon35]

I work in the TAC Cup area and it is what it is. Kids coming out of TAC Cup have a 10% to 15% improvement on skills at the most, particulary kicking.
It is different for the average kid who is not involved in an elite system. There is bigger margin for improvement there.

This is not something i have just made up as an observation. It is widely discussed at TAC Cup level and often drives TAC Cup coaches in sane when they come across kids who can play but where poorly coached early on and have poor kicking skills.
The muscles in your leg do actually train themselves to kick the same way so if you are not taught to kick properly early then you tend to kick across from right to left rather than straight through. It is not something that can be rectified.
You sight the Hawkins case well like someone else has said he is still kicking badly. I will bring up Bradley. They spent two years of special training for his kicking. They filmed him they got him coming in slowly trying to re align his kicking action but it did not work as under pressure he went back to the same style every time. Freo also did a lot of work with him in his first year over there and it is still the same.

Yea, plenty of us have been through the system or are involved in some way. I agree that improvement can be minimal in some cases but to suggest you can only improve your kicking ability by 10 or 15% is irrelevant as it's not based against anything.

Fact is, our skill level over the past few weeks and for large parts of last year are disgusting (Never more evident than our last 2 NAB cup games). No of course Knights is not responsible for our crap drafting but he does have to stand by his committment to focus as one of his main objectives, to improve our skills.

[ant555]

Yea, plenty of us have been through the system or are involved in some way. I agree that improvement can be minimal in some cases but to suggest you can only improve your kicking ability by 10 or 15% is irrelevant as it's not based against anything.

Fact is, our skill level over the past few weeks and for large parts of last year are disgusting (Never more evident than our last 2 NAB cup games). No of course Knights is not responsible for our crap drafting but he does have to stand by his committment to focus as one of his main objectives, to improve our skills.

Gee it can be like flogging a dead horse when it comes to you.
How many times do you need to be advised that they did do a heap of skills work over the pre season.
If they have not got the improvement in them then it does not matter how much skills work Knights puts into them they won't improve.
They have not invented the magic skills wand yet :rolleyes:
The coach can only take it so far before he starts giving te worst offenders the chop.
The fact that in the press conferance after the Pies game Knights said the skills where not good enough and he was very disapointed given the work we have put inot skills in the pre season indicates he is standing by that and is still working on it.
**** me do you guys hide under a rock and just jump out every now and then when a randon thought enters your head .....

[yaco55]

Can I shift the discussion onto a slight tangent !

If we accept that skill level can onle be improved by 10 or 15% - What improvement can me made to a players speed over 20 to 50 % ? Is it quantifiable ?

[thebigboy]

I think a lot of our skill errors is down to a lack of composure under pressure.

A lot of our players seem to panic under pressure, leading to turnovers or, if they can't immediatly spot an good target, there decision making is rushed and they turn the ball over.

This will probably improve over time (you'd hope).

Be mindful that a lot of the players have had interrupted pre-seasons and that its still only the nab cup.

If it continues to happen through out the season, then there is a cause for concern.