If Sheeds was still coach

[kelvin_sheedy]

Time for some reflection and maybe a bit of fun.

How would we look if the board gave Sheeds a 3 year deal instead of the flick halfway through 06?

Drafting - I think we would have definitely drafted Rioli and Cousins in the past 2 years. No Skipworth.

Delistings - I don't think Sheeds had much time for Dyson but I think Peverill would still be playing AFL. Bradley might still be on our list.

Trading - He would have grabbed Prismall and not even bandied Lovett around.

Sheeds team 09:

Slatts Fletch NLM
Dempsey Ryder McPhee
Lovett Watson Stanton
Davey Lucas Rioli
Jetta Lloyd Neagle
Hille Cousins McVeigh

Inter: Bellchambers/Kepler, Houli, Winderlich, Lonergan

Depth and Youngsters: Pev, Monfries, Nash, Daniher, Pears, Gumby, Hurley

Best 22 injured : Laycock, Reimers, Welsh, Prismall?

That sides reads out pretty well with good balance and depth. Adding 2 class players to our list automatically makes us a top 8 side. Added depth covers us for a few injuries and I'd say we'd be in top 4 contention with that team.

Maybe Sheeds wasn't past it or a crazy old coot?

[larson]

We'd still have Kepler. It's nearly worth losing Sheeds to lose Kepler

[danzan22]

Lonergan would probably be delisted and Rioli wouldn't be as good as he is at the hawks.

[stugots]

would def have grabbed rioli, why we didnt still annoys me

no doubt Solomon would still be hanging around waiting to thump someone

[Enki]

no doubt Solomon would still be hanging around waiting to thump someone

Huh, would you care to show your work?

[Kram81]

We'd still have Kepler. It's nearly worth losing Sheeds to lose Kepler

Kepler is a million times better than Laycock ;)

[Boucks09]

Not sure if we would have Rioli as Sheedy was adament on getting Judd. Therefore we wouldve given up Lloyd, Pick # 6 (=> Rioli) and maybe one of Reimers, Pears or Gumbleton to get Judd.

So theoretically we couldve had Judd and Cousins going off this logic.

[Longy413]

no doubt Solomon would still be hanging around waiting to thump someone

Quick trivia question...

Bachar Houli played his first game in Round 7, 2007.

Who coached Essendon in that game?

[ant555]

Time for some reflection and maybe a bit of fun.

How would we look if the board gave Sheeds a 3 year deal instead of the flick halfway through 06?

Drafting - I think we would have definitely drafted Rioli and Cousins in the past 2 years. No Skipworth.

Delistings - I don't think Sheeds had much time for Dyson but I think Peverill would still be playing AFL. Bradley might still be on our list.

Trading - He would have grabbed Prismall and not even bandied Lovett around.

Sheeds team 09:

Slatts Fletch NLM
Dempsey Ryder McPhee
Lovett Watson Stanton
Davey Lucas Rioli
Jetta Lloyd Neagle
Hille Cousins McVeigh

Inter: Bellchambers/Kepler, Houli, Winderlich, Lonergan

Depth and Youngsters: Pev, Monfries, Nash, Daniher, Pears, Gumby, Hurley

Best 22 injured : Laycock, Reimers, Welsh, Prismall?

That sides reads out pretty well with good balance and depth. Adding 2 class players to our list automatically makes us a top 8 side. Added depth covers us for a few injuries and I'd say we'd be in top 4 contention with that team.

Maybe Sheeds wasn't past it or a crazy old coot?

For a start we would not have drafted Rioli. Sheedy was removed from his drafting duties in 2006. We would have picked whoever Merv Keane rated so it would still have been Myers.

The funny thing about your little fantasy is you have added two players to the side and all of a sudden we are top 4.
I think you need to get a grip.

[Dave The Man]

Agree you would of Drafted Cousins and You still would of have Johns and Bradly

[warney7]

There are many cuts that were made because they had to be and today we don't even think about it.

But the fact is, Sheedy would have tried to hold players like MJ, JJ, Heffernan, Campo, Johns, Michael etc etc.

Knights came in with a hit list and executed it.....I doubt Sheedy would have done the same.

[Bomberlicious]

no doubt Solomon would still be hanging around waiting to thump someone

Um, Sheedy traded Solly...

[KaaN10]

Judd would be playing for us and Lloyd for WCE.

[daffo]

All I can be sure about is that Cousins would be playing for us.

[BomberComfort]

Judd would be playing for us and Lloyd for WCE.


Nope, he would not. Kev could have given them anything he wanted. Judd did not want to come to us. Simple. He wanted Carlton and he would have walked into PSD before going anywhere else. Therefore an 11th hour deal would have been done with Carlton for the same as they ended up with so they did not miss out.

So still not Judd at essendon.

[Spikey]

Judd would be playing for us and Lloyd for WCE.

Please don't tell me you actually think Sheeds would had got that deal through?

[thebigboy]

Kepler is a million times better than Laycock ;)

But....

Well...

Oh your probably right.

[kelvin_sheedy]

For a start we would not have drafted Rioli. Sheedy was removed from his drafting duties in 2006. We would have picked whoever Merv Keane rated so it would still have been Myers.

The funny thing about your little fantasy is you have added two players to the side and all of a sudden we are top 4.
I think you need to get a grip.

How do you know for sure?

Sheeds weilded a lot of influence and the romance of another Rioli would have been too much to pass up. It would have been the right decision anyway. Why are you so adamant in making the wrong decision?

Almost any side in the league is 2 class players away from top 4. I think that one is pretty obvious.

The bottom line is Ant we'd have a better team in 09 if Sheeds was still coach. I was one for getting rid of the old coot but he's sort of proving us wrong.

[Longy413]

And I thought Keane was a Rioli fan but Dodoro wasn't?

[peterfalcino]

we would still be stuffed. We got rid of sheey because he was too old and outdated

[bipolarbeaR]

Rioli wouldn't have broken through in Essendon like he has in the hawks, he joined a confident and good midfield, that instantly gave him confidence to do his thing.

[DapperDon]

How do you know for sure?

Sheeds weilded a lot of influence and the romance of another Rioli would have been too much to pass up. It would have been the right decision anyway. Why are you so adamant in making the wrong decision?

Almost any side in the league is 2 class players away from top 4. I think that one is pretty obvious.

The bottom line is Ant we'd have a better team in 09 if Sheeds was still coach. I was one for getting rid of the old coot but he's sort of proving us wrong.

Sheeds time was up, he was being out coached most weeks and the players had lost their love for him.

Yeah we'd have Cousins, Kepler would still be gone as Sheeds was the reason for him wanting to leave to begin with. Lonergan would have been delisted and we'd have Cyril and Yarran playing next to Lovett and Jetta in the forward line.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[stugots]

Um, Sheedy traded Solly...

my how time flies...

[stugots]

we'd have Cyril and Yarran playing next to Lovett and Jetta in the forward line.

now i wouldnt mind seeing that...just not at ess

[Wanna B Hird]

Kalvin Sheedy you are very negative towards our current team:mad:

[OzBomber]

Rioli wouldn't be playing. He would've broken his leg last year, then this year he'd have some sort of injury troubles that only an Essendon player can have.

[Tambu]

...Lonergan would be gone.

Probably Hille too.

[yodellinhank]

...Lonergan would be gone.

Probably Hille too.

I was thinking along those lines as well. I'm a big Sheedy fan, but i reckon this would have been one of his mistakes. Relationship obviously seemed to be strained between the two.

As for the Judd hypothetical, yeah, the VISY money could have swayed Judd anyway, but we would probably have been in a much better position to bargain if we had a coach at the time. Just wish more clubs had the balls Port did when they gave up Stevens.

[yaco55]

Kelvin Sheedy you tend to change your mind OFTEN.

[stay true]

I'm not sure if I should take this as an indirect swipe at Knighter or not.

The only thing Sheedy would have guaranteed us is a more "senior team". I don't think it would have benefited us in the long term.

I know it's Sheeds (I loved the guy too) but it's time to let go.

[ant555]

How do you know for sure?

Sheeds weilded a lot of influence and the romance of another Rioli would have been too much to pass up. It would have been the right decision anyway. Why are you so adamant in making the wrong decision?

Almost any side in the league is 2 class players away from top 4. I think that one is pretty obvious.

The bottom line is Ant we'd have a better team in 09 if Sheeds was still coach. I was one for getting rid of the old coot but he's sort of proving us wrong.

You will not take any info that does not fit your opinion will you.
There is no 100% guarantee but i can say with 100% accuracy that Sheedy was given less power at the recruiting table after the 2005 draft. 2007 would have been a Dodoro/Keane pick and not a Sheedy pick.
And this has nothing to do with it being the wrong pick. Where did i say that picking Rioli would have been wrong ?

The bottom line is not as clear cut as you say. The bottom line is with Sheedy as coach the only player we certainly would have had is Cousins.

[kelvin_sheedy]

You will not take any info that does not fit your opinion will you.
There is no 100% guarantee but i can say with 100% accuracy that Sheedy was given less power at the recruiting table after the 2005 draft. 2007 would have been a Dodoro/Keane pick and not a Sheedy pick.
And this has nothing to do with it being the wrong pick. Where did i say that picking Rioli would have been wrong ?

The bottom line is not as clear cut as you say. The bottom line is with Sheedy as coach the only player we certainly would have had is Cousins.

Well, of course there's no guarantee. This thread would be no fun without some speculation would it.

The things we started to hate about Sheeds - recycling and picking favourites could possibly have benefited us today if he continued on the same path.

You never know the old coot might have traded Hille and recruited a mature Steven King and got say a Nathan Brown with the resulting pick. Maybe he would have traded Hille to get Judd. Judd might have found it appealling to play under Sheeds. You never know.

For me at this point in time, it looks as though we should have kept him on a few years longer. We'd be a better side... there's no doubt about that.

[Merv]

For me at this point in time, it looks as though we should have kept him on a few years longer. We'd be a better side... there's no doubt about that.

There is plenty of doubt...

[kelvin_sheedy]

There is plenty of doubt...

Only by those with their head in the sand. ;)

[Merv]

Only by those with their head in the sand. ;)

Better to have it there than where you have yours...

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

better to have it there than where you have yours...

Lol.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Lol.

Good to see you guys patting each other on the back. :thumbsu:

Stick to the topic or stop wasting your time posting rubbish.

[lemon chicken]

What are you trying to say here Kelvin? That Sheedy was a better recruiter than Knights? Bit harsh considering Knights is only just beginning his 2nd year. If we beat Port by 10 goals will you change your mind? I think a better topic would be if the board chose to go with Hardwick instead of Knights and traded Lloyd and Lucas how would the list be looking. I think Knights is doing a good job.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

Good to see you guys patting each other on the back. :thumbsu:

Stick to the topic or stop wasting your time posting rubbish.

Stop posting crap and maybe I wouldn't laugh at the majority of your posts.

[kelvin_sheedy]

What are you trying to say here Kelvin? That Sheedy was a better recruiter than Knights? Bit harsh considering Knights is only just beginning his 2nd year. If we beat Port by 10 goals will you change your mind? I think a better topic would be if the board chose to go with Hardwick instead of Knights and traded Lloyd and Lucas how would the list be looking. I think Knights is doing a good job.

Anyway back on topic seeing it's been sidetracked by Mods with nothing interesting to add to this topic or most topics on this board. :thumbsd:

I'm saying that I was one of those guys that couldn't wait to get rid of Sheeds.

If you look at it objectively and with hindsight in mind then the only conclusion we can come to is we made a mistake.

I am having Sheedy withdrawal syndrome and imagine our club this year with Sheeds, Rioli, Cousins. 50K members possibly and a genuine belief.

I'm not having a go at Knights, I'm praising the old coot that a lot of us had thought his time had gone.

[DapperDon]

Good to see you guys patting each other on the back. :thumbsu:

Stick to the topic or stop wasting your time posting rubbish.

You're starting to shit me kelvin, just thought i'd get it out in the open.

If you want to be negative about all things Essendon, feel free to do so from the Richmond board.

[DapperDon]

I am having Sheedy withdrawal syndrome and imagine our club this year with Sheeds, Rioli, Cousins. 50K members possibly and a genuine belief.
.

We reached our highest ever membership total the year after Sheeds left, Rioli and Cousins would not get us 50k, winning will and there is no way you can say we'd be a stronger team with Rioli and Cousins in place of others.

What happens if Cousins does his hammy in round 1 and returns 6 weeks later only to redo it? would it still be considered a masterful selection?

What-if's are the most pointless thing in football.

Imagine we were shit in 2000 and drafted Hodge and Judd, that'd be awesome wouldn't it, Sheeds is a crap coach for winning instead of looking at future success, if only..............:rolleyes:

[Lance Uppercut]

If you look at it objectively and with hindsight in mind then the only conclusion we can come to is we made a mistake.

I am having Sheedy withdrawal syndrome and imagine our club this year with Sheeds, Rioli, Cousins. 50K members possibly and a genuine belief.

I'm not having a go at Knights, I'm praising the old coot that a lot of us had thought his time had gone.

I couldn't disagree more.

We were trending down under Sheedy. There's absolutely no reason to think that would have changed.

You're basically pulling best case scenario's out of your arse and presenting them as fact.

I could just as easily say that Sheeds would have been overrulled by the board re Cousins, retired Lloyd for perceived disloyalty, and traded Hille for a bag of magic beans; and Essendon getting the wooden spoon 3 years running.

It's just as realistic as your scenarios

[kelvin_sheedy]

We were trending down under Sheedy. There's absolutely no reason to think that would have changed.



Actually we started going back up under Sheeds.

3 wins 06
10 wins 07
8 wins 08 under Knights.

The same argument could be made that we would have got 12 wins under Sheeds in 08. ;)

[DapperDon]

Actually we started going back up under Sheeds.

3 wins 06
10 wins 07
8 wins 08 under Knights.

The same argument could be made that we would have got 12 wins under Sheeds in 08. ;)

Sheeds was coaching for the moment, not the future. He also had a one James Hird still working his marvel which helped us across the line in many of those 10 wins.

Knights played youth, delisted dead wood and still managed 8 wins. It was the correct decision.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Sheeds was coaching for the moment, not the future. He also had a one James Hird still working his marvel which helped us across the line in many of those 10 wins.

Knights played youth, delisted dead wood and still managed 8 wins. It was the correct decision.

No reason why Sheedy wouldn't have delisted the "dead wood". He dropped MJ at the end of the season. Heff was gone anyway. Bolts was gone or going.

Knights has kept Dyson, Nash, Slatts, NLM, Laycock, McPhee - all one way or another considered dead wood by a lot of supporters.

Sheedy played Jetta and Davey in Round 1 2007 against Adelaide and played Ryder CHB. He coached to win. Isn't that what we strive for?

[DapperDon]

No reason why Sheedy wouldn't have delisted the "dead wood". He dropped MJ at the end of the season. Heff was gone anyway. Bolts was gone or going.

Knights has kept Dyson, Nash, Slatts, NLM, Laycock, McPhee - all one way or another considered dead wood by a lot of supporters.

Sheedy played Jetta and Davey in Round 1 2007 against Adelaide and played Ryder CHB. He coached to win. Isn't that what we strive for?

To begin with, Knights can only delist so many a year. No point getting rid of 15 players in 1 season just to fill with picks 120odd.

Sheedy played Jetta and Davey yes, but he didn't play Lonergan and also dropped Hille and Watson late in the year. I'm not here to slag Sheeds off as I love what he did for the club over a long period of time, but his time was up. It's simple as that, Knights being the correct call to replace him is another argument all togeter, but Sheeds had to go.

[LeeARM]

this thread was supposed to fun where we just play guessing games...

like we could've got jeff white and nathan carrol. what a wacky adventure that would be

[windyhill]

Knighter is still cleaning up his mess. We are really in for a long long process here people.

[bomba4eva]

We'd be in the headlines a lot more. He did exceptionally well to give Essendon publicity.

We'd have Cousins in our team and not a mediocre Skipworth.

May of had Rioli ahead of Myers. Bolton would come in for his annual game against Goodes.

Dyson would have been cut. May of had Judd though trading Lloyd would have been a farce I believe.

Perhaps Gumbleton and Pick 6 for Judd?

Long live Sheedy.

[yaco55]

Kelvin Sheedy

U flip flop like Mike Sheahan !

Are you related ?

[lemon chicken]

I am having Sheedy withdrawal syndrome and imagine our club this year with Sheeds, Rioli, Cousins. 50K members possibly and a genuine belief.

I'm not having a go at Knights, I'm praising the old coot that a lot of us had thought his time had gone.

I had those withdrawals a fair bit last season. Nobody can deny that Sheeds will go down in history as one of the best match day coaches the game has seen. But 50k members in Melb is not gonna be seen from a bottom 5 side with 2 recruits. Zantuck and Cupido suggest that he had just as many misses than hits. Cousins could still fit in that basket.

[FrankGrimes]

Well, of course there's no guarantee. This thread would be no fun without some speculation would it.

The things we started to hate about Sheeds - recycling and picking favourites could possibly have benefited us today if he continued on the same path.

You never know the old coot might have traded Hille and recruited a mature Steven King and got say a Nathan Brown with the resulting pick. Maybe he would have traded Hille to get Judd. Judd might have found it appealling to play under Sheeds. You never know.

For me at this point in time, it looks as though we should have kept him on a few years longer. We'd be a better side... there's no doubt about that.


there seems to be plenty of doubt in this post, lots of maybes and you never know.. trading hille and picking up king would have cost us this year and the next few years, but you never know king may have fired and won a brownlow;), get your head out of your arse and realise we are in a much better position now then without old sheeds....

[ant555]

Anyway back on topic seeing it's been sidetracked by Mods with nothing interesting to add to this topic or most topics on this board. :thumbsd:

I'm saying that I was one of those guys that couldn't wait to get rid of Sheeds.

If you look at it objectively and with hindsight in mind then the only conclusion we can come to is we made a mistake.

I am having Sheedy withdrawal syndrome and imagine our club this year with Sheeds, Rioli, Cousins. 50K members possibly and a genuine belief.

I'm not having a go at Knights, I'm praising the old coot that a lot of us had thought his time had gone.

FU Kelvin.
I may tackle people opinions but i always give a reason why. It is part of the discusion. I added to the discussion by pointing out that part of your little theory was factually wrong.
Sheedy would not have been in control of the recruiting if he stayed on.
The problem here is once again you get an idea and when people challenge it you won't let it go.

The fact is you can not sit there and say we would certainly be happy.
Fact two is you can not say we certainly would have had Rioli. I can not help it if you want to belive in fairy tails. The simple fact is with the same recruiting team in place and Sheedy not in the picture the chances are the result would have been the same as what we got.

How about a new exercise, imagine if we had of given Sheedy the boot at the end of 2005 and kicked out half of his favourites/dead wood then ?

Sheedy was great. Before he left o got the chance to spend a quick 5 minutes with him after training to tell him how much i enjoyed his time at the club and to thank him for the succes we had which was driven by him.
I got him to sign a few bits and piece of i had.

I loved the guy but his time with us had come. I belive he probably does have a few coaching tricks up his sleeve but he had run his race at Essendon. He needed a fresh start.

The one thing you are forgetting in this little fantasy Kelvin is the players. I know for a fact that 80% of the playing group where happy to see a new coach coming in. There was no real magic left between Sheeds and most of the players.

[ant555]

Actually we started going back up under Sheeds.

3 wins 06
10 wins 07
8 wins 08 under Knights.

The same argument could be made that we would have got 12 wins under Sheeds in 08. ;)

Yes but Sheeds had James Hird to carry us over the line in a couple of games and did not have the injury list that Knights had in 2008.
I would argue that if we had 50% less injuries and James Hird playing in 2008 then Knights would have won 12 games as well.

[kelvin_sheedy]

FU Kelvin.
I may tackle people opinions but i always give a reason why. It is part of the discusion. I added to the discussion by pointing out that part of your little theory was factually wrong.
Sheedy would not have been in control of the recruiting if he stayed on.
The problem here is once again you get an idea and when people challenge it you won't let it go.


That comment wasn't directed at you. You're one of the few that has someone interesting to write even though I don't agree sometimes and we clash heads.

As for the topic.. I can dream can't I?

[ant555]

That comment wasn't directed at you. You're one of the few that has someone interesting to write even though I don't agree sometimes and we clash heads.

As for the topic.. I can dream can't I?

Apologies for the FU remark. Being a mod i prseumed it was directed at me as well. Guess thats what happens when you presume :o

We can all dream. My dream is that i hope i am wrong about tmy assesment of our list :D

[Phat Toni]

Perhaps Gumbleton and Pick 6 for Judd?


I remember when the Judd saga was going on and there were things like Paddy + pick 6 and 20odd for Judd or the one you have above, at the time I was thinking hell no to both options but right now, i'm starting to believe the Gumby one would have been better for us.

[bomba4eva]

I remember when the Judd saga was going on and there were things like Paddy + pick 6 and 20odd for Judd or the one you have above, at the time I was thinking hell no to both options but right now, i'm starting to believe the Gumby one would have been better for us.
I'm starting to believe we should have made that trade also. My optimism has always been fuelled by the hope that our top picks would realise their talent. This optimism is being chipped away every time Gumbleton finds himself on the sidelines which occurs with alarming regularity. With Judd and Cousins in the team I'd be much more confident about making the top 8:(

[Lance Uppercut]

http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/uploads/disney-chicken-little-sky-falling.jpg

[bomba4eva]

You're starting to shit me kelvin, just thought i'd get it out in the open.

If you want to be negative about all things Essendon, feel free to do so from the Richmond board.
This thread was made for fun as he clearly pointed out.

It's ok to be critical of Knights guys. Don't think for a second that just because he is new he should be immune from criticism. I followed that theory for a while but it isn't doing anyone a favour. His mistakes need to be pointed out so he can analyse them and then attempt to correct them.

This Board shows a lot of blatant disrespect to Sheedy which I think is unfair considering what he did for the club.

[stay true]

This thread was made for fun as he clearly pointed out.

It's ok to be critical of Knights guys. Don't think for a second that just because he is new he should be immune from criticism. I followed that theory for a while but it isn't doing anyone a favour. His mistakes need to be pointed out so he can analyse them and then attempt to correct them.

This Board shows a lot of blatant disrespect to Sheedy which I think is unfair considering what he did for the club.
No-one here is disrespecting Sheedy. He isn't immune from criticism either. Let's be honest, he had to go sometime.

You seem to have contradicted yourself there.

[DapperDon]

This thread was made for fun as he clearly pointed out.

It's ok to be critical of Knights guys. Don't think for a second that just because he is new he should be immune from criticism. I followed that theory for a while but it isn't doing anyone a favour. His mistakes need to be pointed out so he can analyse them and then attempt to correct them.

This Board shows a lot of blatant disrespect to Sheedy which I think is unfair considering what he did for the club.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not slagging Sheeds as a person, nor for what he did for the club. Just that his time was up, he is not immune from critism just because he is a Legend, he dug a very deep hole in his latter years that is only starting to be rectified now.

Knights should be given time, no point slagging him off until he has a decent chance to shine. One year, with many injuries and young team is not a decent chance to shine in my books.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Another question...

If we drafted Selwood instead of Gumby and then Rioli and Cousins and we had a good injury run this year could we challenge for the flag?

[timbo3195]

Another question...

If we drafted Selwood instead of Gumby and then Rioli and Cousins and we had a good injury run this year could we challenge for the flag?

Another question...

What exactly do you, or anyone, get out of these stupid questions?

[kelvin_sheedy]

Another question...

What exactly do you, or anyone, get out of these stupid questions?

Go away. :thumbsd:

Stick to threads where you want to contribute something worthwhile instead of wasting our time.

[ghostdog]

I love the man, but if Sheeds was still here we'd be playing practise matches against PNG or NZ or Indonesia or some place, with the aim of recruiting as a major focus.

[LeeARM]

i wonder if he'd tell us they we could win a premiership

[ghostdog]

:thumbsu: ...and he'd tell us we could win a premiership.

[dons_fan185]

My God Kelvin...give it a rest!

Rioli, Selwood, Cousins....these guys are talented player yes but they are supported by their teams more than anything. Selwood and Rioli were given the amazing opportunity to play their first season in premiership winning teams and that more than anything improved their performance and gave them their game that X-factor that first round draftees lack.
The only reasons our drafting was more successful in 2000 is because we were more successful.
One or two 18 year old boys don't change a team.

Lets say you've got a daughter and she brings home two guys. She can do much better than the first, he's a nice guy but he doesn't really have any balls (in your opinion). The second comes into the house, drinks all your beer and tells you that he's still driving even though he lost his licence 6 months ago.
Which one do you want her to date...which one is safer.
Thats the Cousins / Skipworth debate.

And lastly I'll put a situation to you.


Rhys Palmer debuted in his second game and ended up playing a whole season and won the Rising Star.
David Myers played 8 games and was injured for most of last year.
Essendon finished 12th
Fremantle finished 14th

Lets explore this...Rhys Palmer: 6; David Myers: 7
Essendon holds Palmer back for a while, plays him in a few games tries to work out a place for him. Because we want him as a backman but he's played his whole life in the midfield. Rhys gets himself injured and re-injured because he's trying too hard to impress the coaches just to get a game.
David Myers debuts in purple in his second game. He's playing week in week out consistently as his team is struggling and he stands out. He's also in the midfield role he played and succeed in in under 18's.

Who would you rate higher. The guy who was given a chance to "prove" himself or the guy who tried so hard but couldn't "prove" anything because he worked so hard he injured himself.



Sheedy isnt around anymore. Get used to it or go support Richmond.

[kelvin_sheedy]

My God Kelvin...give it a rest!

Rioli, Selwood, Cousins....these guys are talented player yes but they are supported by their teams more than anything.


Luckily Hird was supported by his teammates also ;)


Selwood and Rioli were given the amazing opportunity to play their first season in premiership winning teams and that more than anything improved their performance and gave them their game that X-factor that first round draftees lack.


If you can play.... you can play for anyone, anywhere and at anytime and show your stuff. Usually good players make a team better. That's how it works.


The only reasons our drafting was more successful in 2000 is because we were more successful.


Our drafting was terrible in 2000. In fact terrible from 00-04. Our team around 2000 was built upon the kids of 93 + some good Sheedy trades + some good draft picks in mid to late 90's.


One or two 18 year old boys don't change a team.


Quality players change a team. It's a pretty easy concept to grass.


Lets say you've got a daughter and she brings home two guys. She can do much better than the first, he's a nice guy but he doesn't really have any balls (in your opinion). The second comes into the house, drinks all your beer and tells you that he's still driving even though he lost his licence 6 months ago.
Which one do you want her to date...which one is safer.
Thats the Cousins / Skipworth debate.


Maybe one day you'll be able to bring home two guys?


And lastly I'll put a situation to you.

Rhys Palmer debuted in his second game and ended up playing a whole season and won the Rising Star.
David Myers played 8 games and was injured for most of last year.
Essendon finished 12th
Fremantle finished 14th

Lets explore this...Rhys Palmer: 6; David Myers: 7
Essendon holds Palmer back for a while, plays him in a few games tries to work out a place for him. Because we want him as a backman but he's played his whole life in the midfield. Rhys gets himself injured and re-injured because he's trying too hard to impress the coaches just to get a game.
David Myers debuts in purple in his second game. He's playing week in week out consistently as his team is struggling and he stands out. He's also in the midfield role he played and succeed in in under 18's.

Who would you rate higher. The guy who was given a chance to "prove" himself or the guy who tried so hard but couldn't "prove" anything because he worked so hard he injured himself.


Seriously...

Palmer played 20 odd games, won the rising star and showed everone he can play at this level.

Myers played 8 games in a better side yet showed less. Doesn't that contradict your first point. In fact your whole post contradicts itself.



Sheedy isnt around anymore. Get used to it or go support Richmond.

First thing you've got correct. Sheedy isn't around anymore. So what? We are discussing where we'd be if he was. Cappish?

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

What if in 2000 we drafted Kerr instead of Davies, Charman instead of Richards, Pratt instead of Hunt, Cross instead of Bannister and Johncock instead of Bullen

What if in 2001 we drafted Steve Johnson instead of Harvey, Campbell Brown instead of Reynolds, Mitchell instead of O'Keefe, Medhurst instead of Salmon, Lake instead of McAlister.

We'd be a pretty good side then.

[kelvin_sheedy]

What if in 2000 we drafted Kerr instead of Davies, Charman instead of Richards, Pratt instead of Hunt, Cross instead of Bannister and Johncock instead of Bullen

What if in 2001 we drafted Steve Johnson instead of Harvey, Campbell Brown instead of Reynolds, Mitchell instead of O'Keefe, Medhurst instead of Salmon, Lake instead of McAlister.

We'd be a pretty good side then.

Another mind blowing piece of work. :thumbsu:

Either discuss the topic at hand or don't waste our time.

Here.. let me start you off. Sheeds in 07 almost took us to the finals. He got the chop mid year. If Hird and Davey did not go down he might have still had a job. That's in the realms of possibility.

I think it's hard for people to swallow the fact that with Sheeds at the helm right now we'd be a better side and in better position.

[bipolarbeaR]

Good to see you guys patting each other on the back. :thumbsu:

Stick to the topic or stop wasting your time posting rubbish.

I thought it was funny too... I constantly question your ignorance.

as far as posting rubbish you are pretty adept at that yourself mate.

[bipolarbeaR]

I think it's hard for people to swallow the fact that with Sheeds at the helm right now we'd be a better side and in better position.

Yeah, we would be at the moment, but only for short term nibbling attempts at the flag like Collingwood or St Kilda, instead we are doing the smart thing, completely rebuilding with a bunch of youngsters that will eventually know each other and will have knowledge of how to back up their team mates and know what they are going to do in every instance. In a few years we will be digging at the flag for about 3-4 years in a row like Brisbane in the 00's and Geelong and Hawthorn right now.

I do NOT find that hard to swallow, infact I am lapping it up like your mum :D

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

Another mind blowing piece of work. :thumbsu:

Either discuss the topic at hand or don't waste our time.

Here.. let me start you off. Sheeds in 07 almost took us to the finals. He got the chop mid year. If Hird and Davey did not go down he might have still had a job. That's in the realms of possibility.

I think it's hard for people to swallow the fact that with Sheeds at the helm right now we'd be a better side and in better position.

Your Honor, you're bringing up drafting Selwood instead of Gumbleton and Rioli instead of Myers. Why can't I bring up past drafts?

[stander]

I think it's hard for people to swallow the fact that with Sheeds at the helm right now we'd be a better side and in better position.

Good old Sheeds left us with a shell. That is what is hard to swallow.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Your Honor, you're bringing up drafting Selwood instead of Gumbleton and Rioli instead of Myers. Why can't I bring up past drafts?

I added Selwood to the mix to highlight how close Sheedy was to another good side.

If things fell into place and Selwood wasn't injured and overlooked or if the drafting system hadn't changed and we got Selwood and Gumby would Sheedy be seen as someone that wasn't with it anymore?

The fact is that Sheeds could have been on the verge of another great side and era if that was the case. It's a really fine line between success and failure.

[TheDon35]

Who knows....

Knights has done very little to this stage that indicates he's going to be a great coach.

The assistants he appointed were inexperienced
His game plan found wanting at times despite his best efforts to pretend that he 'deliberately' did alot of the things that had us flogged last year.
Our drafting under him isn't able to be judged yet
His win loss record went backward from '07 etc etc.

Problem is he's inherited a list compiled by Sheedy which was disgustingly poor. We are in the bottom 3 sides in the league in my opinion for players over 21.

Had Sheedy have taken a youth policy with a good crop of kids, I believe we would have been the better man than Knights to rebuild the side but he wasn't doing that so who knows.

[bomba4eva]

No-one here is disrespecting Sheedy. He isn't immune from criticism either. Let's be honest, he had to go sometime.

You seem to have contradicted yourself there.
Well buddy, I was more referring to posts going out of their way to slander Sheedy rather then paying him the respect of being a great servant for 27 clubs. Seems these days people have short memories and are happy to stick the boots in unnecessarily.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not slagging Sheeds as a person, nor for what he did for the club. Just that his time was up, he is not immune from critism just because he is a Legend, he dug a very deep hole in his latter years that is only starting to be rectified now.

Knights should be given time, no point slagging him off until he has a decent chance to shine. One year, with many injuries and young team is not a decent chance to shine in my books.
As I've pointed out I wasn't saying he is immune from criticism. I've noticed people like to slander his name at any chance especially when coaching and Knights comes up.

Knights has had a year at the helm. Plenty of time for people to analyse some of his work and spot flaws and positives that Knights has brought to the club.

[dons_fan185]

Luckily Hird was supported by his teammates also ;)

So none of our team supports each other anymore? Or the rest of the team is s--t. Not just David Myers and Scott Gumbleton (I feel the need to clarify the reason I picked those to names because they are the two that you apparently didn't want to draft. )

If you can play.... you can play for anyone, anywhere and at anytime and show your stuff. Usually good players make a team better. That's how it works.

No the way drafting works is you go to the team that picks you. And then you play for them when it's judged that your ready. And there are many people judging this.
Coaching, training, effective stratergy and strong support make teams better. What did your coach tell you when you were 9 years old...you know about how team is spelt....?

Our drafting was terrible in 2000. In fact terrible from 00-04. Our team around 2000 was built upon the kids of 93 + some good Sheedy trades + some good draft picks in mid to late 90's.

I'll admit I was just taking a stab to prove you wrong. But in doing that you've just proven to me there's little correlation our drafting and our success in recent years. Perhaps things have changed?

Quality players change a team. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp.

Then call me a fool. How does one quality player change an entire team in season 2009?


Maybe one day you'll be able to bring home two guys?

Why stop at two when I can aim for three, four or perhaps even 18. Given that I'm apparently a moronic, ignorant, unreasonable Gen-Y female football supporter who spends half her time arguing with people on internet forums, and for all you know wildly unsociable, unfriendly and unattractive, then its highly unlikely that'll happen. But hey, here's hoping!


Seriously...

Palmer played 20 odd games, won the rising star and showed everone he can play at this level.

Myers played 8 games in a better side yet showed less. Doesn't that contradict your first point. In fact your whole post contradicts itself.

David Myers was injured! For the love of God, did you want him to play 20 Palmer-esque games on 1 leg and then never play again?? What the hell did you want him to do in 8 games?
Even the 20 games Rhys Palmer played showed very little. How will he cope with the taggers and addded fan and media pressure this year? Can a shiny medal really prove anything?
Three years or 40 games minimum before you can accurately judge whether or not a player has 'proved' himself.


First thing you've got correct. Sheedy isn't around anymore. So what? We are discussing where we'd be if he was. Cappish?

No, I don't. Why the hell do we care what Sheedy would do if he was still around? Why not ask what Stephen would do? Or what Davis would do? Hell what would Reynolds do? Or what would Buckley do if he coached us next year and instead of lowly men we had a team of super-chimps and robots, with Joel Selwood, Cyril Rioli and James Hird heading the cheer squad?

It's not fun. All it seems you're trying to do is aggitate people like me, who would gladly put my life on the line for my team, and then poke fun at or reduce us when we present flawed arguments.

[bomba4eva]

Even the 20 games Rhys Palmer played showed very little. How will he cope with the taggers and addded fan and media pressure this year? Can a shiny medal really prove anything?
Three years or 40 games minimum before you can accurately judge whether or not a player has 'proved' himself.

Was reading your post and had a chuckle when I got to this part. Palmer showed very little?

Instant loss of credibility. He was their best midfielder in a pathetic team and constantly racked up the disposals and was hence judged the best young player for the year.

Won't find too much support for that comment. Reckon Judd proved himself within 40 games.

[dons_fan185]

Was reading your post and had a chuckle when I got to this part. Palmer showed very little?

Instant loss of credibility. He was their best midfielder in a pathetic team and constantly racked up the disposals and was hence judged the best young player for the year.

Won't find too much support for that comment. Reckon Judd proved himself within 40 games.


haha i was worrying about that comment before i posted it.

i think the point i was trying to make is that Palmer doesn't instantly qualify as a legend. he did extrodinarily well to carry Fremantle the way he did, but in sayng that he's been given more noteriety now: will he be able to do it again? i think if he can equal and better his first season then he has proven himself.

but yes, that was a tragic comment.

[bomba4eva]

haha i was worrying about that comment before i posted it.

i think the point i was trying to make is that Palmer doesn't instantly qualify as a legend. he did extrodinarily well to carry Fremantle the way he did, but in sayng that he's been given more noteriety now: will he be able to do it again? i think if he can equal and better his first season then he has proven himself.

but yes, that was a tragic comment.
Doesn't qualify as a legend but being reasonable it proves at the very least he is a capable player.

[dons_fan185]

at the very least it proves he had a fantastic debut season. the way I interperate capable must be different to you though. I think he has the potential to be capable. Let's see if he can stand up again, lets see if he can face the pressure of fans and media, lets see if he can hold himself against off-feild dramas.

FWIW I think he will be a stunningly capable player. He's excceptionally skilled, good leadership abilities and seems to have a decent brain.

I don't want to say that he's the be all and end all though because what happens if he crumbles and can't cope with being excessively tagged, what happens if he turns to drugs (I know this is slightly exaggurated, but it does happen to players who become too famous and too depended on when they are too young).

Yes I'm a hypocrite for even writing this, after I slam hypotheticals. I think there's a lot more to show before he can prove himself

[bomba4eva]

at the very least it proves he had a fantastic debut season. the way I interperate capable must be different to you though. I think he has the potential to be capable. Let's see if he can stand up again, lets see if he can face the pressure of fans and media, lets see if he can hold himself against off-feild dramas.

FWIW I think he will be a stunningly capable player. He's excceptionally skilled, good leadership abilities and seems to have a decent brain.

I don't want to say that he's the be all and end all though because what happens if he crumbles and can't cope with being excessively tagged, what happens if he turns to drugs (I know this is slightly exaggurated, but it does happen to players who become too famous and too depended on when they are too young).

Yes I'm a hypocrite for even writing this, after I slam hypotheticals. I think there's a lot more to show before he can prove himself
Sorry, are we still talking about Palmer?

If so, there are many errors in your post. Skills for example:confused:

Being on a footy site I'd assume you'd have a keen interest in the game so I'm surprised you've missed all the criticism he received for having poor efficiency rates with his kicks.

I'd also say he had to deal with a fair bit of pressure in WA and Freo fans hungry to see him play well as their season unravelled.

Then you proceeded to go on a large tangent.

Anyway we seem to have different definitions to assess how capable a player is.

[kelvin_sheedy]

I saw Mal Michael the other day and I forgot to add him in. Sheeds said at the end of last year that a team vying for the flag should look at picking him up.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Sheeds was coach Mal would still be playing. Personally I felt he could go on another year anyway.

I think Slatts would get relegated to emergency and Fletch will play loose or on the smaller bloke just like his 07 AA year.

Sheeds backline 09:

Fletch Michael NLM
Dempsey Ryder McPhee

;)

[yaco55]

I added Selwood to the mix to highlight how close Sheedy was to another good side.

If things fell into place and Selwood wasn't injured and overlooked or if the drafting system hadn't changed and we got Selwood and Gumby would Sheedy be seen as someone that wasn't with it anymore?

The fact is that Sheeds could have been on the verge of another great side and era if that was the case. It's a really fine line between success and failure.

You are clutching at straws.

You add Sellwood ( IMO he is underrated ),and Rioli ( a touch overrated ) to the 2008 team and we may have won another 1 or 2 games.

Possibly in 2 or 3 years when the team has matured ( and lived up to expectations ) they may make a difference.

But you dont win premierships on the back of 1 or 2 players.

[DapperDon]

I saw Mal Michael the other day and I forgot to add him in. Sheeds said at the end of last year that a team vying for the flag should look at picking him up.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Sheeds was coach Mal would still be playing. Personally I felt he could go on another year anyway.

I think Slatts would get relegated to emergency and Fletch will play loose or on the smaller bloke just like his 07 AA year.

Sheeds backline 09:

Fletch Michael NLM
Dempsey Ryder McPhee

;)

Thank Christ we got rid of Sheeds then.

[stay true]

Back to the Palmer/Myers bit for a second... if we drafted Palmer instead, the same people slagging off Myers would be slagging Palmer off for his terrible disposal.

That's the thing with pessimists. Always sooking about something.

[dons_fan185]

DD, I'd love to see the guy in your sig's reaction to this thread.

[slugger]

I might go a better approach. What if the board had made the gutsy decision in 2004 and turfed Sheeds then. Who would have been on the table as coach (and don't say Wallet), and what would they have done with the list? Sheeds had to go...the only issue was when. The board probably gave him too much power for years...particularly power over recruiting.

There's no doubt if his contract had been up in '98, he'd have been gone.

[Pevers-Legend]

If Sheeds was still coach we would not have won last night.

Knights' gameplan and persistance with it is really starting to bear its fruits.

[kelvin_sheedy]

We'd have had Rioli and his display last night was super.

No reason why Sheeds would not have tweaked his game plan to suit the modern game.

I'd say we would have won and would have been aiming for top 4 with Sheeds this year.

[Kaiser Powser]

Only two things are certain in my mind.

We would have Cousins.

We would have been thumped last night.

Knights coaching; to completely demolish the Hawthorn zone with a bunch of kids, was something to be very proud of.

[AndyLesPaul]

We'd have had Rioli and his display last night was super.

No reason why Sheeds would not have tweaked his game plan to suit the modern game.

I'd say we would have won and would have been aiming for top 4 with Sheeds this year.
Now here, you are making Sheeds decisions for him.

and are you absolutely sure that sheeds would've drafted Rioli? if so, he must've also considered drafting other players.
You cant have it both ways.

Rioli in Essendon = probs not pears or hooker. then we would have gotten owned in defence.

bam.

[Ben the Gooner]

Knighter's best performance last night.

[stander]

Lucas would have played centre half back- and I would still be agitating for Sheedy's head.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Lucas would have played centre half back- and I would still be agitating for Sheedy's head.

At least he would have made Pazza happy. :D

[stander]

We'd have had Rioli and his display last night was super.

No reason why Sheeds would not have tweaked his game plan to suit the modern game.

I'd say we would have won and would have been aiming for top 4 with Sheeds this year.


You miss the point of Sheedy's termination. He didn't have the ability to coach at this level in this decade.