Matthew Knights & why I rate him

[Lance Uppercut]

Danger Zone (http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/danger-zone/2009/03/20/1237526331272.html)
Nathan Buckley | March 21, 2009


THERE was dispute last year about the 2008 Norm Smith medallist. When isn't there? From a seemingly even set of Hawthorn performances and a brilliant one from Gary Ablett jnr, plenty of prospects were considered. Ultimately the right decision was made. Luke Hodge was clearly the most influential player on the field.

Hodge alone shored up a defensive structure that had been compromised as the season progressed. By September, he became the last line of defence behind a much-vaunted "cluster" that quality teams had started to punch holes in. Whether the constant third man up or the man dropping into the hole, Hodge was a thorn in the side that opposition teams just couldn't reach. Even the best team of the era couldn't find a way around, over or through him.

Without Hodge, the premiership could not have been won; without Hodge, every team in the competition may not be as interested in midfield zones. He has a lot to answer for.

In the history of the game, strong defence has been acknowledged as a necessity for premiership success. This decade, just three of the 18 teams that have contested grand finals have been ranked outside the top four in defence. The Brisbane Lion premiers of 2001 and 2003 were ranked sixth and fifth respectively (they were ranked second in 2002) and the Port Adelaide side of 2007 was ranked 10th.

Last year, Geelong was ranked first and Hawthorn second; both with their own style of defence and the personnel to carry it out.

Until last year, defensive floods and zones of various descriptions had been employed by teams but had ultimately been found wanting when the intensity stepped up in September. That is if they made it there at all.

Until last year, the defensive premise of every premier had started with hard, accountable, one-on-one football.

Until last year, it didn't seem like there was any reason to change what had been a tried and tested defensive mechanism.

It seems that one result, and perhaps one great Hodge performance, has turned that upside down and there is almost unanimous belief that midfield zones are the way to go. I'm not so sure.

Teams that choose to execute a rolling zone this year but don't possess a Hodge-like player - and few do - will walk into a minefield that will cause more pain than gain.

Just days ago, all of the head coaches were anonymously surveyed and asked to forecast this year's tactical trends. Rolling zones was the common theme, with 11 of the 16 coaches listing it as the season's dominant innovation; it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You don't do a whole pre-season of work on a tactic and not use it. The die has already been cast.

One coach stated: "This tactic decreases the number of inside-50s dramatically, consequently limiting scoring opportunities."

In their grand final loss, the Cats took the ball into their forward 50 62 times and gave their forwards plenty of supply. The influence of Hodge in that zone combined with the glut of rushed behinds (which we should now see the back of) was profound in reducing direct scoring opportunities.

If the most drilled and specifically coached exponents of the midfield zone gave up that many entries, what hope do relative newcomers have of stopping the best attacking sides in the competition from kicking winning scores? Simply, they won't. Even further, how do they then structure effective attacks of their own from such a set-up?

Another comment from an AFL coach indicated it would be a challenge. "As we instruct our players not to give up possession unnecessarily there will be more keepings-off than ever, more sideways chipping of the ball and obviously more ugly football."

To best understand what we are likely to see from a team learning this style we need only look back at the Hawthorn team of 2005. In their first year under Clarkson, the Hawks played the same "ugly" football described during the week. They pushed numbers back trying to clog up their opponents' front half, only to over-possess the ball by chip kicks and switches that rarely took them closer to their goals. They won five games.

It took the Hawks three more seasons to have the team and gameplan finals ready. Before last year, Lance Franklin's game winner against the Crows in 2007 was Hawthorn's only recent September success. In that time Clarkson and his football department specifically recruited the personnel required to execute the plan. It took time and patience to get to that point.

Despite the flag they have in their back pocket, the Hawks have made no secret that they are a work in progress. It seems they are the only ones who see themselves as more than just a midfield zone. Their hardness in the contest, smooth ball movement and effective forward structure were more responsible for their September success than the zone.

Therein lies what I believe was the greatest lesson of the grand final. The Hawks were far more effective going into their scoring zone on the day than their opponents. The two best defences went at it, hard, and neither team took a back step. They were evenly matched except for that one key ingredient; perhaps Geelong's last line of defence wasn't as good as it had been throughout the year.

Fast, effective and forward ball movement is the next trend that will separate the better teams from the also-rans. It just so happens that the Hawks and the Cats are the best at it. The Hawks do it with brilliant foot skills and hard running after transition from a turnover. The Cats do it predominantly with a run-and-carry style robust enough to withstand the fiercest pressure through the corridor.

Their differing styles reflect the strengths of their personnel and this should be the starting point for their rivals. Get super fit, be prepared to work hard and be accountable in defence and find an attacking structure that suits your playing list to move the ball quickly and effectively into attack.

As it is, the focus on rolling zones by many teams will render them sitting ducks against the best two teams in the competition. We are indeed likely see a lot of ugly football and lower scoring this year as teams learn their new defences on the job, but it seems increasingly likely that the gap between Geelong and Hawthorn and the rest will only grow as the season progresses.

when Clarkson took over Hawthorn, he had a game-plan in mind that he felt would bring him a flag.

He cut the dead wood, and recruited the players required to carry out the game-plan.

It took 4 years to come to fruition. 4 years where I'm sure a large percentage of Hawks supporters were ready to give up. I'm sure there were supporters calling for his head, or nostalgically recalling better days under different coaches. That's human nature - living in the moment, not seeing the bigger picture, writing of kids after less than 10 games etc

Now the "rolling zone" has been so successful, like every year, the majority will copy the premier. As Buckley so rightly points out, unless you have the personnel, you will get killed if you try to take the premiers on with their own game.

Matthew Knights reminds me of Clarkson a lot. He has a plan, and he is executing that plan.

Of course, a lot of us supporters don't see the bigger picture, and don't understand that you need to go through some pain for the ultimate reward.

But that's what's happening now.

If we get it right, by not apeing Hawthorn and developing our own fast, aggressive game-plan, in the next couple of years we will be uniquely placed to take advantage of the football environment.

Slowly, slowly, we are getting there. Knights refuses to do a "Wallet" and simply copy the dominant game-plan of the day. He is building a game plan that will slice a defensive zone up.

Essendon: leaders, not followers. Matthew Knights is doing a great job so far

[kelvin_sheedy]

For every Clarkson and Hawthorn there's a Laidley and North, Wallace and Richmond, Craig and Adelaide, Malthouse and Collingwood, etc, etc.

Clarkson hit the jackpot with Franklin, Roughead and Rioli. Top draft picks that are serious talents and can actually play. They are not waiting 6 years for them to show their stuff. They kicked 180 goals between then in their 4th year! Franklin kicked 70 odd in his 3rd.

Our comparisons would be Gumbleton, Neagle and say Myers. Neagle is in his 4th year and can barely get on the park.. Gumby 3rd year and can't string a few games together. He'll get nowhere near 70 goals and will be lucky to play 10 games.

Gumby and Neagle are light years away from Franklin and Roughead. Myers is no where near the class of a Hodge.

A game plan is only as good as the cattle you have out there.

[HULK HOGAN]

Yes, its a shame theres still alot of dead wood there to turn his gameplan into a successful one you need a whole lot better personnel than Hawthorn have to win there flag. Hawthorn had the Granny one the minute Stokes went out and lined up on Hodge and preeceded to tap him in the ribs Hodge laughed!! Our game plan knights want to play is alot more risky than any cluster, esecially when you have players running the lines whos disposal isn't up to scratch there imediate opponent can almost sit back knowing the ball is coming straight back the overlap kills us week in week out. We cant even think about playin 4 tall forwards until this is ironed out.
For me I think we have gone a little bit overboard on this running half back flank type of player and theres no doubt besides '08 we could have drafted a little better too, but that aint knighters fault maybe Dodoro or what ever is a bit over rated like Jetta:)

[HULK HOGAN]

For every Clarkson and Hawthorn there's a Laidley and North, Wallace and Richmond, Craig and Adelaide, Malthouse and Collingwood, etc, etc.

Clarkson hit the jackpot with Franklin, Roughead and Rioli. Top draft picks that are serious talents and can actually play. They are not waiting 6 years for them to show their stuff. They kicked 180 goals between then in their 4th year! Franklin kicked 70 odd in his 3rd.

Our comparisons would be Gumbleton, Neagle and say Myers. Neagle is in his 4th year and can barely get on the park.. Gumby 3rd year and can't string a few games together. He'll get nowhere near 70 goals and will be lucky to play 10 games.

Gumby and Neagle are light years away from Franklin and Roughead. Myers is no where near the class of a Hodge.

A game plan is only as good as the cattle you have out there.
WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsu:

[Lance Uppercut]

For every Clarkson and Hawthorn there's a Laidley and North, Wallace and Richmond, Craig and Adelaide, Malthouse and Collingwood, etc, etc.

Clarkson hit the jackpot with Franklin, Roughead and Rioli. Top draft picks that are serious talents and can actually play. They are not waiting 6 years for them to show their stuff. They kicked 180 goals between then in their 4th year! Franklin kicked 70 odd in his 3rd.

Our comparisons would be Gumbleton, Neagle and say Myers. Neagle is in his 4th year and can barely get on the park.. Gumby 3rd year and can't string a few games together. He'll get nowhere near 70 goals and will be lucky to play 10 games.

Gumby and Neagle are light years away from Franklin and Roughead. Myers is no where near the class of a Hodge.

A game plan is only as good as the cattle you have out there.

you're an incorrigible pessimist though. I'd hate to live in your head.

I believe Gumby, Neagle and Myers are terrific talents. I've seen so many short-sighted supporters over the years write off players because they haven't been superstars from day one.

You would have had Gary O'Donnell hung drawn and quartered after half a dozen seconds games.

Of course, you're conveniently ignoring the point of the article, because it doesn't suit your world view.

Knights is innovating. He has a plan and he is executing it. That will necessarily mean growing pains. You don't see it though. You just wish we were copying everyone else, picking the players everyone else thinks we should pick up.

You mistake development for deficiency. You ignore the central tenet of the OP, and that is that Knights is developing a strategy and, working within the confines of a draft system, is putting that into place.

We are evolving a game-plan based on speed; attack; and quick, efficient movement of the ball. Yes, we have a way to go; some defensive elements fine-tuned and our players a little more development.

Instead of copying the current paradigm like everyone else, we are developing a strategy to beat it. We are attempting to create a new paradigm.

Step outside of the moment and try and see the bigger picture for once

[Lance Uppercut]

more evidence of the philosophy at Windy Hill that Knights is instilling:

Matthew Lloyd in today's Age:

3. The advent of the rolling zone will bring some sides undone — it could even happen by round seven. Every year teams copy the premiership side's style of football and assume that is the way the game must be played to beat the best in the competition. First, there was the flood, followed by Sydney's shut-down style. We had great footy in 2007 because Geelong's hard running created excitement. Hawthorn played the rolling zone, so that is now seen as the way to go. In every game I've played during the pre-season, opposition teams have tried it, but I think teams are better off playing to their strengths and that is dictated by their list. If Geelong had won the premiership in '08, we wouldn't even be talking about it and don't forget Geelong went inside 50 metres on 62 occasions that day. You don't lose too many games doing that.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/roughead-to-kick-a-ton/2009/03/21/1237526398156.html

[ant555]

Lance people do forget just how bad the Hawks where.
There hwere serious question marks aimed at Hawthorn by the media when Clarkson had his first contract extended mid way through its last year.

As for those saying a game plan is only as good as the cattle you have out there, well yest it is but what game plan do you wan't ?

Do we stick to some crap arse plan until we get a good list or do we start to work on a new plan, teach the young kids now rather than later and weed out the ones who don't make it.

Like it or not we are in the SECOND year of a rebuild. Yes that is right, second year. Yes we have not played finals for 5 years but they are now fixing the stuff ups from the previous 3 ot 4 years.

The facts are obvious , since the end of 2007 we have changed the whole football and fitness department. The player development had a major upgrade at the end of last season.
On top of that recruiting was changed at the start of the 2007 season.
To date we are currently starting the second year of that set up and there have been extra personal added to that first year plan .

[Slattery_20]

ant & lance, spot on
It's not flavour of the month, but Knights is clearly not about the quick fix. The amount of change the clubn's had in the last year or two - recruiting, assistant & development coaches, etc has been phenomenal.
there are a lot of dummy spits going on right now.

[Skeeta Olly]

Great post, Ant.

[HULK HOGAN]

more evidence of the philosophy at Windy Hill that Knights is instilling:

Matthew Lloyd in today's Age:



http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/roughead-to-kick-a-ton/2009/03/21/1237526398156.html
LIoyd thinks teams should play to there strengths, yes that is correct but the team that plays to there strengths and has the cattle to carry that out nearly always comes up trumps Essendon 2000, Brisbane 01,02,03 Sydney and West coast 05,06 Geelong 07 and probably would have been 08 had they kicked straight and a few other little issues 1 example could be Paul chapman. Teams that have a balanced unit of quick strong hard running players combined with some class can achive there game plan successfully. I reckon Brisbanes 01,02,03, gameplan is the same as Geelongs is currently and that to me is the best succes wise (proven) and it is also the best one to watch. By the end of the year im sure we will all be saying this (Geelong Premiers). As for the Bombers well signs ar there for this type of balance but come on whats going on with the disposal and Injurys (continual) frustrating but............ We will have some good wins this year and show some more improvement but its those 2 things that continually let us down. Round 1 next week v Port will be very hard!! They are my smoky for a top 4 finish this year so could be a good gague as to how we are going??

[Slattery_20]

Round 1 is never a good gauge for anything. How often have we won round 1 and missed finals?
You're ignoring everything ant's said
You don't just walk into having a great team and sorted game-plan
Geelong it took Thompson a good 5 years before he got close to the grannie, Clarkson 4 to get the flag, and so on and so forth.

[BringBackCransberg]

Thanks for the articles Mr Uppercut. Awesome, thinking stuff.

Apparently there was a focus shift within the club at the time it was decided to let go of Sheedy: instead of trying to make the finals every year, try to get up an era-dominating side every ten years. Perhaps that's just gossip, but the evidence seems to be there that it's the attitude (like these articles).

I wouldn't write Gumbleton, Neagle and Myers off as deadwood not playing their roles within the premiership tilt just yet, as some seem to be. The only basis you can do that on is their bodies, as they clearly haven't played enough games to judge their ability on. Their bodies, then? Give them at least another year, as they're still growing boys. Let 'em ripen. You can really only judge the combination of potential and attitude, now, and they've got that in spades.

Flood, shut-down, midfield zone.....what's it gonna be? Our list suggests something fast with tall forwards. The Elude, Handball and Bomb?

[HULK HOGAN]

Round 1 is never a good gauge for anything. How often have we won round 1 and missed finals?
You're ignoring everything ant's said
You don't just walk into having a great team and sorted game-plan
Geelong it took Thompson a good 5 years before he got close to the grannie, Clarkson 4 to get the flag, and so on and so forth.
Round 1 WIIL be a good gauge especially for players like Lucas and some of our youn kids and of course Lovett, if we preform well it will put us on the way to improvement preform bad and Port could Blow us out the water.

[Slattery_20]

If we win, it means we'll be 1-0
If we lose, it means we'll be 0-1

That's IT!

I remember being so excited about winning round 1 matches in 2006, 2007, 2008... means absolutely nothing when you're 3-7 with 15 injuries a few months later.

[Tambu]

If we win, it means we'll be 1-0
If we lose, it means we'll be 0-1

That's IT!

I remember being so excited about winning round 1 matches in 2006, 2007, 2008... means absolutely nothing when you're 3-7 with 15 injuries a few months later.
Spot on.

Round 1 2004 - Port def. Ess by 96 points at AAMI... We went on to make the finals :)

[bipolarbeaR]

Got it in one Lancey! :) I have been saying this since he came in. I thought it was very obvious, when the players bodies are used to Knight's game plan we should be indestructable, we should eat up any defence, all the game plan requires is patience and confidence in our players and coach, Gumby and Neagle have as long as they want, I won't give up on them.
I am completely fine with a few slower years and them dominating, instead of being mediocre constantly like Collingwood and St Kilda.
I personally love Knights' plan and have told him myself, he is very happy when people recognize what he is doing for our great club!
I cannot stand impatient "fans" like Kelvin Sheedy and a few others, it's England EPL-esque how they don't support the players and coaches and call for their heads, you cannot expect results this quickly people.

[reincarnated]

Following points are valid…

We are currently fixing the Club’s mistakes of the past
It takes time to get a game plan together and building a team
It takes time for younger players to develop and become great players
Knights is only in his second year
We have to be patience and go through the pain
It’s about building a team for sustained success

However, it’s disheartening to keep watching them make blaring mistakes continuously.

Things like fitness and skills, we’ve been amongst the bottom clubs for years. Players who’ve been in the list for over 5 years, they are at the same level. They still can’t kick to a player on the lead when they are under no pressure at all. One would think that at least they will work their socks off to be really fit. Half of them don’t even work hard in a match situation.

There is nothing a coach can do about continuous recruiting stuff ups. Saw a thread in here of what we are missing, with almost every reply suggesting an elite midfielder. I mean this was identified bloody 4 to 5 years ago. We are still talking about it. Don’t keep thinking we need to do it. Just bloody do it.

Almost every team who play us, just brushes our players aside and take easy contested marks. (I should say uncontested marks). Tell me a player in our list who is capable of taking a contested mark by holding off his opponent with his strength.(May be only Hille). Even Lloyd and Lucas aren’t capable of doing that anymore. Who is in charge of player conditioning?

Gumbleton for example, still looks like a feather duster and you are worried if a gush of wind was to come his way he is going to fall down. I mean I saw Gibbs the other day. Unbelievable. He looks like he is just bulked up and looks really strong. Both players were drafted at the same year. Gibbs is touted to be a midfielder. Gumbleton a forward. If you put these two in a marking contest, one would have to say Gumby has got no chance.

Apart from the brief shoulder injury, he is been having hamstring issues. I would have thought he had absolutely almost every bit of two and a half years get his upper body right by now.

Talking about deadwood, what’s going to be frustrating this year is that our team selection is going to be a pain, with lot of youngsters are going to miss out. Putting my self in Knights shoes, the following is going to be the team Knights is going to pick, if there are no injuries, with maximum 4 changes.

Slattery Fletcher Lovett-Murray
Nash Ryder Welsh

Hille Watson McVeigh
Stanton Winderlich Prismall

McPhee Lucas Skipworth
Davey Lloyd Lovett

Laycock Dyson Monfries Lonergan


Majority of the following players who are AFL ready are going to struggle to get regular games, if any.

Dempsey, Neagle, Gumbleton, Reimers, Houli, Jetta, Myers, Pears, Daniher, Hurley, Zaharakis, T.Slattery etc.

[GoDons]

Round 1 is never a good gauge for anything

Very true words.

Let's go back to Round 1, 2007.

Hawthorn played Brisbane on a rainy night at the GABBA. They kicked 2 goals to three quarter time and there were only 15 kicked in the match, 7 in the last. Hawthorn were abysmal. They played unpenetrative, defensive and all round boring football. After that game, people wrote them off for the rest of the season.

As bad as that game was, Hawthorn stuck to their gameplan. The zone didn't work that night, but they stcuk with it and went on to win 14 more games that year, including a final.

At the end of the day, it may not all come together in Round 1. We may fail to execute properly, and I expect that'll happen numerous times this year. That's what happened with Hawthorn. We're going to get pumped a few times, but that doesn't matter. That's what happened with Hawthorn and it didn't matter to them. We've already seen how effective it can be last year, so it's a matter of persistence. We'll build as the season goes on, and as we get better with Knights' brand, I honestly believe we can be a top football side.

Too many people are expecting things to happen overnight, or over a pre-season. Things don't work like that. A few bad trial matches (and that's what they are) isn't cause for pessimism. This is a gradual thing, and there's no reason not to get behind it.

[GoDons]

Things like fitness and skills, we’ve been amongst the bottom clubs for years. Players who’ve been in the list for over 5 years, they are at the same level. They still can’t kick to a player on the lead when they are under no pressure at all. One would think that at least they will work their socks off to be really fit. Half of them don’t even work hard in a match situation.

That's ridiculous. Blokes like Stanton, Watson, McVeigh, Winderlich, Welsh, Lloyd and Fletcher work their asses off.

Why do we get beaten? Because we're playing very attacking football. You don't win Premierships with 3 guys dropping behind the ball to stop the flow, you win by taking it to every side you play. Right now, we can't field 22 guys that are ready to do that. It doesn't mean that half of them aren't working hard enough.

There is nothing a coach can do about continuous recruiting stuff ups. Saw a thread in here of what we are missing, with almost every reply suggesting an elite midfielder. I mean this was identified bloody 4 to 5 years ago. We are still talking about it. Don’t keep thinking we need to do it. Just bloody do it.

Because it's just that easy, isn't it?

Trading robs Peter to pay Paul, although we did target Nick Dal Santo last year. We drafted David Myers to be one of the men, and it would seem extremely likely we'll add to the midfield again at the end of the year.

It hasn't been ignored, it's more so that we've got to address our KPP stocks as well. We're still building, it's a gradual thing.

Almost every team who play us, just brushes our players aside and take easy contested marks. (I should say uncontested marks). Tell me a player in our list who is capable of taking a contested mark by holding off his opponent with his strength.(May be only Hille). Even Lloyd and Lucas aren’t capable of doing that anymore. Who is in charge of player conditioning?

Gumbleton for example, still looks like a feather duster and you are worried if a gush of wind was to come his way he is going to fall down. I mean I saw Gibbs the other day. Unbelievable. He looks like he is just bulked up and looks really strong. Both players were drafted at the same year. Gibbs is touted to be a midfielder. Gumbleton a forward. If you put these two in a marking contest, one would have to say Gumby has got no chance.

Apart from the brief shoulder injury, he is been having hamstring issues. I would have thought he had absolutely almost every bit of two and a half years get his upper body right by now.

Firstly, Lloyd is more than capable of taking contested marks. You'd be silly to write off Lucas just yet as well. If you're only after one player who can take one, David Hille's a clear example. You've basically admitted so much yourself.

You say that it's valid that player's take time to develop. That applies physically as much as anything. The difference between Gumbleton and Gibbs is that Gibbs wasn't 195cm and growing when he was drafted. He'd already developed a fair bit of core strength and could move on to more general weight building activities almost immediately. Gumby still doesn't have the core to do that. He will in time. In not having the core, too much muscle will stress the rest of his body, and put his hamstrings at even more risk.

Talking about deadwood, what’s going to be frustrating this year is that our team selection is going to be a pain, with lot of youngsters are going to miss out. Putting my self in Knights shoes, the following is going to be the team Knights is going to pick, if there are no injuries, with maximum 4 changes.

Slattery Fletcher Lovett-Murray
Nash Ryder Welsh

Hille Watson McVeigh
Stanton Winderlich Prismall

McPhee Lucas Skipworth
Davey Lloyd Lovett

Laycock Dyson Monfries Lonergan


Majority of the following players who are AFL ready are going to struggle to get regular games, if any.

Dempsey, Neagle, Gumbleton, Reimers, Houli, Jetta, Myers, Pears, Daniher, Hurley, Zaharakis, T.Slattery etc.

Or maybe the older group will have to work their asses off to saty in the side, with some of them missing out?

Young blokes will get opportunity, but they'll get opportunities when they're fully deserving.

[bomberlegend2007]

That's ridiculous. Blokes like Stanton, Watson, McVeigh, Winderlich, Welsh, Lloyd and Fletcher work their asses off.

Why do we get beaten? Because we're playing very attacking football. You don't win Premierships with 3 guys dropping behind the ball to stop the flow, you win by taking it to every side you play. Right now, we can't field 22 guys that are ready to do that. It doesn't mean that half of them aren't working hard enough.

Because it's just that easy, isn't it?

Young blokes will get opportunity, but they'll get opportunities when they're fully deserving.

Very well said, very well said.

I to like what Knights is doing with the club, he has got a game plan and is sticking to it, its doesn't matter whats our average points against per game is now, as long as we in a flag in 3-5 years time, no one will remember that.

You can see now that our kicks and hitting targets is not so flash now, but in time, players will be hitting target after target and getting the ball from one end, to the other without it hitting the ground. This will all come in time.

Be patient, our time will come.

[yaco55]

Season 2006.

After 18 rounds

Hawthown were 4 -14.

Only winning the last 4 games gave them a sense of respectability.

2 years later - 2008 Premiers

[HULK HOGAN]

I dont want to be labelled an impatient fan infact I firmly belive we can make the finals this year, Ive even put 100 bux on us to do so, yes you are correct players take time to develop but these skill errors that continualy occur hurt us so badly especially with this game plan. There are players with a ? next to there name who maybe wouldnt be capable of taking us to the level which we ALL wish to achive.

[kelvin_sheedy]

you're an incorrigible pessimist though. I'd hate to live in your head.

I believe Gumby, Neagle and Myers are terrific talents. I've seen so many short-sighted supporters over the years write off players because they haven't been superstars from day one.

You would have had Gary O'Donnell hung drawn and quartered after half a dozen seconds games.

Of course, you're conveniently ignoring the point of the article, because it doesn't suit your world view.

Knights is innovating. He has a plan and he is executing it. That will necessarily mean growing pains. You don't see it though. You just wish we were copying everyone else, picking the players everyone else thinks we should pick up.

You mistake development for deficiency. You ignore the central tenet of the OP, and that is that Knights is developing a strategy and, working within the confines of a draft system, is putting that into place.

We are evolving a game-plan based on speed; attack; and quick, efficient movement of the ball. Yes, we have a way to go; some defensive elements fine-tuned and our players a little more development.

Instead of copying the current paradigm like everyone else, we are developing a strategy to beat it. We are attempting to create a new paradigm.

Step outside of the moment and try and see the bigger picture for once

Incorrect. I'm quite the optimistic and I'm of a few on this board that thinks we'll play finals this year.

Whenever someone makes a comparison with Clarkson and Hawthorn it makes me sick in the guts.

Why do we automatically assume that we'll be successful in the same manner? Richmond have failed, Saints have failed + many more.

There's no magic formula that says you'll be successful if you suffer some pain. The Bulldogs have been nowhere near if for 100 years.

It's as if we are conceding that our current group of players is not good enough so we need to bring the kids in. Well guess what... the percentage of kids that succeed is very small. If we are relying on our recent batch then we are in massive trouble.

Comparing with Hawthorn is very naive. They have 2 once in a generation players in Hodge and Franklin. Franklin is on track to be one of the greatest ever. Hodge is a gun and when people talk of Myers in the same sentence it is embarrassing. In fact Myers should be compared to Brichall who he is miles behind.

The fact is I'm optimistic about the likes of Hille, McVeigh, Watson, Stanton, Lovett being better than people give them credit for. I think these guys can be the group that gets us into the finals. I'm optimistic about Fletcher and Lloyd playing great football. I'm optimistic about Davey and Jetta causing havoc up forward. I'm optimistic about the likes of Ryder, Lonergan, Reimers, Dempsey, Winderlich, Houli.

As for Knights, well... he could be the next Gerard Neesham, Peter Rohde... or he could be the next Sheedy. I'm pretty sure that Sheeds started the rebuild by turning over a fair bit of the list in 05 and 06.

[HULK HOGAN]

I would like to ask Lance Uppercut which players are not capable of putting us IN a grand final, not counting any retirees Fletch etc. Also how Long do you think it will take
to get us in a top 4 position? last but not least which players will be our next "elite players" to lead us to the top?

[ant555]

Kelvin i think you are missing part of the point. It is not about copying the Hawthorn model. The point is the Hawks where a very average side under Clarkson for 2 1/2 seasons before they started to shine.
It seems that some supporters of our club are clambering over themselves to stick the knife into Knights before he has the chance to prove if he is a good or bad coach.
Yes he made some mistakes last year. Yes some match ups where strange but in saying that i was expecting some strange postions from a first year coach.

As for Sheedy starting the rebuilding yes he did send a few packing but he was only 3 years too late.
We have started again since he left. What else do you call it when 90% of the footy and fitness department is changed ?
On top of that new positions have been created and the most of the recruting department is only 2 drafts old.
I don't know about you but it smells of a total rebuild of the system to me.

What shits me are the parrots who keep saying we have only one game plan.
Squark"one game plan " squark.
The problem is we are not even that good at man on man footy which is generally the safety plan. How are we supposed to look good at plan B,C,D,E or Z if we can not put plan A in place ?
And don't give the shit that you play a plan that suites your list. Maybe you do if you want to accept mediocricy for another 5 to 10 years.

[ant555]

I would like to ask Lance Uppercut which players are not capable of putting us IN a grand final, not counting any retirees Fletch etc. Also how Long do you think it will take
to get us in a top 4 position? last but not least which players will be our next "elite players" to lead us to the top?

Have we currently got any "elite " players ?
Personally i think that the Club plan of being a genuine top 4 side in 2012 could even be a stretch.
It generally takes 4 to 6 years to see how your list pans out.
We have pretty much started over again at the begining of 2008 so somewhere between 2012 - 2014 before we really know what shape it is in.

[bomba4eva]

Have we currently got any "elite " players ?
Personally i think that the Club plan of being a genuine top 4 side in 2012 could even be a stretch.
It generally takes 4 to 6 years to see how your list pans out.
We have pretty much started over again at the begining of 2008 so somewhere between 2012 - 2014 before we really know what shape it is in.
You are referring to things other then the playing list itself though. Sure the football department is being transformed but the list itself has been regenerated over the last few seasons. Sheedy should have cut a few more earlier forcing Knights to clear out some of those players after 2007 but we have had a large influx of youngsters for a while now. 2005 is when I personally believe we started a somewhat constrained rebuild after we received some good picks and used them well in the draft. The main problem was Sheedy's insistence to play a mature team which put us back a few years. Then we totally collapsed in 2006 and of course 07, 08 brought about similar finishes. What Knights was able to do with his mantra of playing the kids was to inject a large percentage of our talented youth into the seniors last season.
So the proper rebuild itself may have only started last year but the regeneration in the list I believe started a while back.

[The Dustbin]

when Clarkson took over Hawthorn, he had a game-plan in mind that he felt would bring him a flag.

He cut the dead wood, and recruited the players required to carry out the game-plan.

It took 4 years to come to fruition. 4 years where I'm sure a large percentage of Hawks supporters were ready to give up. I'm sure there were supporters calling for his head, or nostalgically recalling better days under different coaches. That's human nature - living in the moment, not seeing the bigger picture, writing of kids after less than 10 games etc

Now the "rolling zone" has been so successful, like every year, the majority will copy the premier. As Buckley so rightly points out, unless you have the personnel, you will get killed if you try to take the premiers on with their own game.

Matthew Knights reminds me of Clarkson a lot. He has a plan, and he is executing that plan.

Of course, a lot of us supporters don't see the bigger picture, and don't understand that you need to go through some pain for the ultimate reward.

But that's what's happening now.

If we get it right, by not apeing Hawthorn and developing our own fast, aggressive game-plan, in the next couple of years we will be uniquely placed to take advantage of the football environment.

Slowly, slowly, we are getting there. Knights refuses to do a "Wallet" and simply copy the dominant game-plan of the day. He is building a game plan that will slice a defensive zone up.

Essendon: leaders, not followers. Matthew Knights is doing a great job so far

Agree Lance.

Whilst I hate losing and not having played finals now for 4 years, I'm happy to go through a little bit more pain knowing that Knights has us on the right track. I'm sort orf enjoying watching the team evolve.

Off field Knights has got spot on. On field he's still learning and he made some match up blunders last year, but that's all part of the learning process.

How good's the sig? :D

[Jex]

You don't win Premierships with 3 guys dropping behind the ball to stop the flow, you win by taking it to every side you play. Right now, we can't field 22 guys that are ready to do that. It doesn't mean that half of them aren't working hard enough.

You don't win premierships by running forward of the play and leaving the defensive 50m zone open either. Knights needs to find the right balance. Right now, we don't have the maturity or the skill level to implement Knights' current gameplan.

[stay true]

Yeah that's why we stick to it and cop the odd smashing (much like Hawthorn 3-4 years ago) and in a few years when it all comes together we'll have a genuine chance for a flag.

[Tambu]

You don't win premierships by running forward of the play and leaving the defensive 50m zone open either. Knights needs to find the right balance. Right now, we don't have the maturity or the skill level to implement Knights' current gameplan.
I think Knights is aware of all that. He made it clear last year that he wanted to get the group to work on individual parts of his gameplan so they wouldn't be overloaded with things to work on at once.

Last season was about attack, he wanted to see how the players could handle playing very fast attacking football knowing the risk that if the ball got turned over we'd pay for it.

He also said that in 2009 we'll introduce a more defensive style to combine with the attacking style.

No doubt our players are finding it tough to play at top speed, trying to hit targets more often than not. However we also look pretty damn good other times. The team needs time to gel and adjust under a new coach.

The players will get used to what Knights wants of them with each game they play. In two or three years, I think we'll see this team go close to mastering Knights' gameplan.

[The Donners]

For every Clarkson and Hawthorn there's a Laidley and North, Wallace and Richmond, Craig and Adelaide, Malthouse and Collingwood, etc, etc.

Clarkson hit the jackpot with Franklin, Roughead and Rioli. Top draft picks that are serious talents and can actually play. They are not waiting 6 years for them to show their stuff. They kicked 180 goals between then in their 4th year! Franklin kicked 70 odd in his 3rd.

Our comparisons would be Gumbleton, Neagle and say Myers. Neagle is in his 4th year and can barely get on the park.. Gumby 3rd year and can't string a few games together. He'll get nowhere near 70 goals and will be lucky to play 10 games.

Gumby and Neagle are light years away from Franklin and Roughead. Myers is no where near the class of a Hodge.

A game plan is only as good as the cattle you have out there.

I agree with most of what you say, but it is a poor tradesman who blames his tools.

[The Donners]

Majority of the following players who are AFL ready are going to struggle to get regular games, if any.

Dempsey, Neagle, Gumbleton, Reimers, Houli, Jetta, Myers, Pears, Daniher, Hurley, Zaharakis, T.Slattery etc.

Do you honestly believe all the above players are AFL ready?

I'm all for patience (can't deny frustration but that's understandable, I think) and although we need to put game time into those players (because we're so far behind the 8-ball) I wouldn't think any of those above players would get a game at Hawthorn or Geelong... or most likely any other team in the top half of the ladder because they're not ready.

Reimers and Houli for me are the only 2 that are AFL ready, not to say they don't have some ironing out to do but they are capable of playing a role. I think Dempsey hasn't quite settled into the speed of AFL football, I like how he takes players on but he must know when and when not to, he gets caught far too often. Gumbleton, Myers, T Slattery and Zaharikis do or will get pushed off the ball/contest with relative ease due to their conditioning. Daniher's skills are ordinary. Pears can't seem to get on the field and when he has, for me has shown very little, I mean I'll give him time but he hasn't shown that he should, if it were a decent team, retain his spot in a senior AFL side. Jetta and Neagle simply don't do enough, Neagle doesn't work hard enough or doesn't have the fitness base and Jetta simply doesn't kick enough goals, you can argue the delivery is poor or you can argue that he should be at the fall of every ball that goes to ground deep in the forward line. Hurley is the new kid on the block, the top draft pick that inevitably gets given priority over more deserved players in order to fast track his development.

Although there's good reason to play them, are they really AFL ready?

[Colin D'Cops]

On top of that recruiting was changed at the start of the 2007 season.

It did change a fair bit, though Dodoro is still the head recruiting honcho down at Windy Hill so on face value it hasn't changed a whole lot. Not sure if Merv Keane was around in the football recruiting side of things at the Dons at the time, pretty sure he was doing some recruiting at Richmond prior to that season.

[yaco55]

I dont think we will obtain a true reading of our list until the second half of 2010.

I have noticed in the NAB Cup - hints of using a form of a zone - so I would expect that we will keep teams to less than 100 points, more often this season.

[Merv]

It did change a fair bit, though Dodoro is still the head recruiting honcho down at Windy Hill so on face value it hasn't changed a whole lot. Not sure if Merv Keane was around in the football recruiting side of things at the Dons at the time, pretty sure he was doing some recruiting at Richmond prior to that season.

I don't know who has the final say, but Dodoro is List Manager and Keane is the Recruiting Coordinator and he was involved in the 07 and 08 drafts.

[ant555]

It did change a fair bit, though Dodoro is still the head recruiting honcho down at Windy Hill so on face value it hasn't changed a whole lot. Not sure if Merv Keane was around in the football recruiting side of things at the Dons at the time, pretty sure he was doing some recruiting at Richmond prior to that season.

Don't lecture me about our recruting set up ;):)
Dodoro , list manager since the start of 2007. He does not get to all the TAC Cup games or watch all the players closely any more. He tends to get around and talk to the parents. Rarely sits down and watches a full game live.

Merv Keane , head of recruiting since the start of 2007. He co ordinates the recruiters, watches heaps of games live and handles the day to day recuiting matters.

[Longy413]

Don't lecture me about our recruting set up ;):)
Dodoro , list manager since the start of 2007. He does not get to all the TAC Cup games or watch all the players closely any more. He tends to get around and talk to the parents. Rarely sits down and watches a full game live.


His role has changed again for 2009.

[ant555]

You are referring to things other then the playing list itself though. Sure the football department is being transformed but the list itself has been regenerated over the last few seasons. Sheedy should have cut a few more earlier forcing Knights to clear out some of those players after 2007 but we have had a large influx of youngsters for a while now. 2005 is when I personally believe we started a somewhat constrained rebuild after we received some good picks and used them well in the draft. The main problem was Sheedy's insistence to play a mature team which put us back a few years. Then we totally collapsed in 2006 and of course 07, 08 brought about similar finishes. What Knights was able to do with his mantra of playing the kids was to inject a large percentage of our talented youth into the seniors last season.
So the proper rebuild itself may have only started last year but the regeneration in the list I believe started a while back.


So when we delisted Bradley, Hislop, Dick, Chartres and Johns last year who where all drafted as part of the rebuilding of the list under Sheedy what where we doing ?
If say Nash , Dyson, Lovett (if he falls back into previous habits) Monfries and Hocking go at the end of this year then what are we doing ?
Lets face it the 2004 draft is not looking all that good for us now with two players left in Slattery and Monfries who both have question marks on them.
2005 and 2006 currently look like a pass.

Its not my problem you can not read the signs. There is every chance that a few of the players we picked in our Sheedy rebuild of 2002 to 2006 will not be around by 2010.

You draft players every year so you are pretty much regenerating your list every season. When you start picking off groups of players drafted in the previous 5 years you are rebuilding again.

Despite what you say about regenerating the list you can not change the game plan, the fitness plan and all the staff if you are not starting a fesh rebuild. yes some of the old parts will still fit but as you go along you will be also moving out the parts that don't fit.

[ant555]

His role has changed again for 2009.

Gee you add a real lot to conversations at times.
Yes so his role has changed again, what has that got to do with the role he was given for 2007 and 2008 ?

What is his new role now?

[Longy413]

Gee you add a real lot to conversations at times.
Yes so his role has changed again, what has that got to do with the role he was given for 2007 and 2008 ?

****, get out of the wrong side of bed this morning?
What a pathetic swipe.

I wasn't having a go.
The conversation was about our rebuild, Dodoro's role this season is relevant.

[The Donners]

Dodoro , list manager since the start of 2007.

It may seem self explanatory but what does Dodoro as a list manager actually do? Is he worth his pay packet or is he non-paid (which I highly doubt)?

[Longy413]

It may seem self explanatory but what does Dodoro as a list manager actually do? Is he worth his pay packet or is he non-paid (which I highly doubt)?

He's full time and paid.

And the answer is probably no.

[ant555]

****, get out of the wrong side of bed this morning?
What a pathetic swipe.

I wasn't having a go.
The conversation was about our rebuild, Dodoro's role this season is relevant.

Well if it is relevent then say what the bloody role is rather than your bloody cryptic message. It is not a pathetic swipe at all as you added stuff all info to the conversation.

I dont know what his new role in 2009 is thats why i asked.

[ant555]

He's full time and paid.

And the answer is probably no.

From what i see around the TAC Cup he gets paid for talking a lot :D

[Longy413]

I appreciate your the moderator of that board, but I'm not sure that gives you the sole right to decide what's relevant to all.

It wasn't cryptic, it was straight to the point.

And I didn't say he had a new role, I said his role has changed.
That's all I know, it was pretty hard to work that information into a three paragraph statement.

Not sure what it is about me that makes you angry, but I'm pretty over it.

[Longy413]

From what i see around the TAC Cup he gets paid for talking a lot :D

Talked himself into a job in the first place.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

I'm a good people person, can I have his job?

[ant555]

I appreciate your the moderator of that board, but I'm not sure that gives you the sole right to decide what's relevant to all.

I did not decide what was relevent at all. If you notice i rarely delete anything that people have to say.
All i said was your one line post added little to the argument.
My opinion, you have the right to defend yourself and you have.
Whats the problem ?

It wasn't cryptic, it was straight to the point.

If it was straight to the point you would have said that Dodoro's role has changed this year but it don't know the full details.

That is straight to the point.

And I didn't say he had a new role, I said his role has changed.
That's all I know, it was pretty hard to work that information into a three paragraph statement.

Who said it had to be three paragraphs ? If you had added a few extra words everything would be perfectly clear .
I must admit that i still dont know why another role is relevent to what he was doing in 2007 and 2008.

Not sure what it is about me that makes you angry, but I'm pretty over it.[/


:confused::confused:
I have replied to about 2 of your posts in 6 months and you think i am angry with you ?

Sorry i wont reply to any in the future :rolleyes:

[The Donners]

I'm a good people person, can I have his job?

How are you with brown-nosing? :o

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

How are you with brown-nosing? :o

I can brown-nose with the best of them.

[Kong]

I can brown-nose with the best of them.Agreed. :D

[Longy413]

I'm a good people person, can I have his job?

Don't think that's necessary.

You just need to be good to the right people.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

Don't think that's necessary.

You just need to be good to the right people.

Aww.

[Colin D'Cops]

Don't lecture me about our recruting set up ;):)
Dodoro , list manager since the start of 2007. He does not get to all the TAC Cup games or watch all the players closely any more. He tends to get around and talk to the parents. Rarely sits down and watches a full game live.

Merv Keane , head of recruiting since the start of 2007. He co ordinates the recruiters, watches heaps of games live and handles the day to day recuiting matters.

Not lecturing, rather pointing out that their hasn't been massive changes in that department. Changes? Yes. Massive? No. I never said Dodoro watches most games live and studies them as hard as others, but he does have a very loud voice within the club.

And yeah, also know what Merv Keane does and is one step below Dodoro as far as making the hard calls goes.

[Colin D'Cops]

From what i see around the TAC Cup he gets paid for talking a lot :D

He does love a chat does Adrian, but he also does a fair bit of work behind the scenes like making phone calls to clubs & pubs families and the like that not many people would be aware of.

[ant555]

He does love a chat does Adrian, but he also does a fair bit of work behind the scenes like making phone calls to clubs & pubs families and the like that not many people would be aware of.

Yes he does, pretty sure i have mentioned that a few times before when a Dodoro discussion comes up.

[Colin D'Cops]

Somethings may have been said already, so if so I'm just confirming those points raised. Nothing wrong with that I don't think, not everyone knows all the ins & outs of the football club Ant. So when I quote you and raise points, and this has happened before; I generally make a little reply from the quote and then follow on with my own observations & beliefs. So I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anyone always necessarily, I like to make everything a little more clearer for the viewers and get them generally thinking along the same lines.

[yaco55]

I am certain that Dodoro as recruiting manager, is answerable to Keane who is the list manager !

[ant555]

I am certain that Dodoro as recruiting manager, is answerable to Keane who is the list manager !

Other way around ;)

keane and his crew do most of the watching.
Dodoro does some of the watching but more of the personality side and makes the final decision based on all the info gathered from various parties.

[yaco55]

So the Recruiting Manager at all AFL Clubs is above the List Manager.

I should aspire to be a Recruiting Manager, rather than a List Manager:p.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

ant555 for list manager!

[Colin D'Cops]

keane and his crew do most of the watching.

Dodoro does some of the watching but more of the personality side and makes the final decision based on all the info gthered from various parties.

Spot on Ant555.

[ant555]

So the Recruiting Manager at all AFL Clubs is above the List Manager.

I should aspire to be a Recruiting Manager, rather than a List Manager:p.

No.
Dodoro is list manager. Keane is recruiting manager.
List manager is always the top of the pile, until the coach fires him :D

[bomba4eva]

So when we delisted Bradley, Hislop, Dick, Chartres and Johns last year who where all drafted as part of the rebuilding of the list under Sheedy what where we doing ?
If say Nash , Dyson, Lovett (if he falls back into previous habits) Monfries and Hocking go at the end of this year then what are we doing ?
Lets face it the 2004 draft is not looking all that good for us now with two players left in Slattery and Monfries who both have question marks on them.
2005 and 2006 currently look like a pass.

Its not my problem you can not read the signs. There is every chance that a few of the players we picked in our Sheedy rebuild of 2002 to 2006 will not be around by 2010.

You draft players every year so you are pretty much regenerating your list every season. When you start picking off groups of players drafted in the previous 5 years you are rebuilding again.

Despite what you say about regenerating the list you can not change the game plan, the fitness plan and all the staff if you are not starting a fesh rebuild. yes some of the old parts will still fit but as you go along you will be also moving out the parts that don't fit.
In your haste to shut me down in your confrontational manner you seem to have missed the point of my post.

Whilst a 'rebuild' is always occurring at clubs there is certainly a point when the club ramps up the regeneration in our list. I noted in my last post that 2005 is when I thought the club really started its rebuild. The players you mentioned were drafted prior to that period or were rookie listed players with a low chance of success.

I expect a few from that 02-06 period to be cut from the list as it would be abnormal for us to have been successful in all the players we got in that period.

Last year was the first time where kids were deliberately being pushed into the seniors to get game time whereas under Sheedy only a few were given a go. Knights has many talented players at his disposal and he is looking to fast track their development by playing them. The rebuild will be faster then your claim that last year was really the first year of our rebuild as Knights already has a plethora of talented kids for him to develop.

[Tony Delaney]

For info of those that may not know the basics of the Hawks game plan it is.


In defence find the spare (man)

Through midfield use speed - run the ball, 2 vs 1, 3 vs 2, 4 vs 3 etc

Into forward line deliver to the space - which players run in to.


Spare/Speed/Space

Probably the basics a lot of sides use.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Last year was the first time where kids were deliberately being pushed into the seniors to get game time whereas under Sheedy only a few were given a go. Knights has many talented players at his disposal and he is looking to fast track their development by playing them. The rebuild will be faster then your claim that last year was really the first year of our rebuild as Knights already has a plethora of talented kids for him to develop.

I reckon that's a load of bull. If you look at the first few games last year only Houli, Jetta and Lonergan were given a go before injuries.

Sheeds played a lot of kids... remember 93 :confused:. Remember Bradley, Ryder, Jetta, Houli, Gumbleton, Monfries, Stanton, Slattery. etc, etc, etc

Maybe he didn't play a lot of kids after 00 because our drafting was terrible. You can only play those that deserve to play and show something.

People talk about defensive pressure and dropping kids for not doing the team things, discipline, etc,etc but if you give games to people who don't deserve it then that is the greatest cardinal sin within a club.

[bomba4eva]

I reckon that's a load of bull. If you look at the first few games last year only Houli, Jetta and Lonergan were given a go before injuries.

Sheeds played a lot of kids... remember 93 :confused:. Remember Bradley, Ryder, Jetta, Houli, Gumbleton, Monfries, Stanton, Slattery. etc, etc, etc

Maybe he didn't play a lot of kids after 00 because our drafting was terrible. You can only play those that deserve to play and show something.

People talk about defensive pressure and dropping kids for not doing the team things, discipline, etc,etc but if you give games to people who don't deserve it then that is the greatest cardinal sin within a club.
The kids you chose had either been there for a while or had only got an opportunity after a while. Ryder is the only one thrown straight in there. What does 93 have to do with this decade? We had a mature list for the majority of this decade and Sheedy persisted with many of the older players when he should have focussed on youth.

I also think giving kids a go only when they deserve it is a rubbish theory. You think Franklin 'deserved' to be playing seniors? He was thrown in there when he wasn't ready, got some good game time and then blossomed. This theory of only giving kids a go when they deserve it is a load of crap. Hurley doesn't 'deserve' to start, in fact all the evidence points to him logically being in the reserves come round 1 but it looks likely he'll be in the seniors against Port.

[kelvin_sheedy]

The kids you chose had either been there for a while or had only got an opportunity after a while. Ryder is the only one thrown straight in there. What does 93 have to do with this decade? We had a mature list for the majority of this decade and Sheedy persisted with many of the older players when he should have focussed on youth.

I also think giving kids a go only when they deserve it is a rubbish theory. You think Franklin 'deserved' to be playing seniors? He was thrown in there when he wasn't ready, got some good game time and then blossomed. This theory of only giving kids a go when they deserve it is a load of crap. Hurley doesn't 'deserve' to start, in fact all the evidence points to him logically being in the reserves come round 1 but it looks likely he'll be in the seniors against Port.

Huh?

Stanton was thrown straight in. So was Jetta, Monfries. In fact in 07 Sheeds played every kid from the 06 draft. He has a history of throwing kids straight in.

Well Sheeds should have maybe traded Lloyd, Fletcher and Lucas just like Hawthorn did with their *stars* in Hay and Thompson and focused on youth right.

Hawks threw in Franklin and Roughead because they were 6'4 big kids who were physically almost ready to go and had no one else of any qualtiy. Take out those two great drafting gets and they'd still be in Richmond territory. Our comparison is Gumby and Neagle. These guys shouldn't play any AFL until they can string a few games together at VFL level.

In fact with our recent injury problems and all our kids spending most of their time on the sidelines I would suggest that we slowly build them up via the VFL before subjecting them to the intensity of AFL.

Pretty much every other side that's won a flag has developed with experience. The 3 best sides of the past 50 years in us, Brisbane and the Cats all had an experienced core to work with.

Youth is for suckers.... for those that don't want to hear how bad their side is and can't challenge for the flag. Youth is for those that think players magically become better quicker and even the duds become players.

[bomba4eva]

Youth is for suckers.... for those that don't want to hear how bad their side is and can't challenge for the flag. Youth is for those that think players magically become better quicker and even the duds become players.
The most pertinent part of your post. Our side is poor. We've known it for a while leaving us with our talented kids as the only form of optimism. We cannot challenge for a flag this year and it is another development year meaning we throw the kids into the seniors and see how they perform. This should be done sensibly of course and to give the most ready kids a taste of AFL.

Players do 'become better quicker' when thrown into the first team earlier provided they can handle it. It naturally helps them to pick up the speed of the game and intensity required at the highest level. It helps their confidence once they get a few games. Nothing like playing against the best to improve your game.

[dave_27]

Our recruiting is/was abysmal and has been for a quite a while.

And before people launch at me, the best player we have to show for 8 ****in years of recruiting at this moment is Brent Stanton. A B-grade midfielder. And the 2007 draft isnt looking much better, we only over looked Cyril Rioli and the Rising Star winner Palmer. :o

And we wonder why this club hasnt progressed in 8 years. :thumbsd:

[bomba4eva]

Our recruiting is/was abysmal and has been for a quite a while.

And before people launch at me, the best player we have to show for 8 ****in years of recruiting at this moment is Brent Stanton. A B-grade midfielder. And the 2007 draft isnt looking much better, we only over looked Cyril Rioli and the Rising Star winner Palmer. :o

And we wonder why this club hasnt progressed in 8 years. :thumbsd:
Don't stop there!

Ziebell has looked really good apparently so Hurley is also looking like a monumental mistake!?!@@

Writing Myers off already is naive and smacks of impatience.

[kelvin_sheedy]

The most pertinent part of your post. Our side is poor

Our side over the past 2 years has been finals bound when we've had our best 22 out there. When we've had our experienced players leading the way we've played some good footy and matched most sides.

When we've had a few injuries and the kids have been given a go we've been smashed.

Maybe the kids aren't up to it?

[GoldenboyHird_5]

agreed

[yaco55]

Kelvin

You appear to be contradicting yourself !

You state that Sheedy gave the kids plenty of opportunities, but Knights only plays kids when we have injuries. You then state that our Kids may be no good. But earlier you stated that hwathorn played Roughhead and Franklin before they were ready.

Surely when you play ' young players', you cant expect them to be solid AFL players until they have played 30 or 40 games, unless they are exceptionally talented.

[Pevers-Legend]

Huh?

Stanton was thrown straight in. So was Jetta, Monfries. In fact in 07 Sheeds played every kid from the 06 draft. He has a history of throwing kids straight in.


Sheedy had his own agenda when he played all kids form the 06 draft. he wanted to show the wrold Essendon had good youth and he was leaving the list in a good state.

If you believe sheedy played the kids then you have rose-coloured glasses on. I don;t regard playing a kid one week, then essentially leaving them on the bench the next, then dropping them - playing the kids. He did this far too often - it was his way to get them out off the side in favour of his favourites.

Ryder and Stanton weren't thrown in either - they picked themselves and then there is Monfries - the kid we drafted as a midfielder and gave ZERO opportunity to play there. And you wonder why we struggle with decent mids.

Perhaps if sheedy had have played the kids in their right position - and exposed them, we would have been further down the track than we have been.

sadly - picking the best team was the old way to win - now you must invest in development (which I don't like) but given the way the game is played - it is the only way to develop the core team that can have a crack at real success.

[Pevers-Legend]

Our recruiting is/was abysmal and has been for a quite a while.

And before people launch at me, the best player we have to show for 8 ****in years of recruiting at this moment is Brent Stanton. A B-grade midfielder. And the 2007 draft isnt looking much better, we only over looked Cyril Rioli and the Rising Star winner Palmer. :o

And we wonder why this club hasnt progressed in 8 years. :thumbsd:

You are partially correct with your assessment of our drafting I think.

I would rank Watson on par with Stanton but it still emphasises no A grade talent. We don't have any stars yet. Our main problem has been drafting kids who can not stay fit. Dempsey, Gumbleton, Neagle, Houli, Reimers, Jetta, Lonergan, Daniher, Pears, Myers, I could go on - all have had real injury problems and this hampers their devleopment. Which is why we are so far behnd the 8-ball, but it is also why perhaps we aren't as far away from being really competitive as people think (not talking top 2 either).

No doubt you would have to question our recruiting - I guess it depnds on whether you blame the recruiting staff for picking kids who are injury prone or not? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Pevers-Legend]

Back on topic.

I like the fact Knights has a plan and is going to implement it. He has avoided the quick fix and is instead looking at developing the next group of players to take us to hopefully the big one.

One thing that is certain, you cannot underestimate the need to play together over years to develop that ability to just know what your team mate will do. Geelong and Hawthorn are strong not only because of their stars, but because they work as a team, and they play to their strengths. They know each other and with this brings confidence.

All Knights needs is game time in the core personnel he wants to make up our next successful team. We need games in out potential blue-chip players in Gumby, Dempsey, Myers and so on no doubt, but more importantly we need them to play together consistently.

[kelvin_sheedy]

Sheedy had his own agenda when he played all kids form the 06 draft. he wanted to show the wrold Essendon had good youth and he was leaving the list in a good state.


So you think a man that leds us for 25+ years and who's built the club into the powerhouse that it is will favour his own agenda over the clubs?

Grow up.


If you believe sheedy played the kids then you have rose-coloured glasses on. I don;t regard playing a kid one week, then essentially leaving them on the bench the next, then dropping them - playing the kids. He did this far too often - it was his way to get them out off the side in favour of his favourites.


Sheeds has the right policy. If you are good enough and can contribute then you get a game.


Ryder and Stanton weren't thrown in either - they picked themselves and then there is Monfries - the kid we drafted as a midfielder and gave ZERO opportunity to play there. And you wonder why we struggle with decent mids.


Ryder didn't pick himself. Sheeds threw him in there before he was ready. Sheeds had a tendency to give the first round picks a game before they deserved it.

Monfries wasn't given a go in midfield because he can't play there. Haven't you been watching him the past 5 years. Why doesn't he get a go now. Why didn't he get a go last year with Knights? It's pretty simple.


Perhaps if sheedy had have played the kids in their right position - and exposed them, we would have been further down the track than we have been.

sadly - picking the best team was the old way to win - now you must invest in development (which I don't like) but given the way the game is played - it is the only way to develop the core team that can have a crack at real success.

Why because the Hawks have won one flag with that policy. Maybe they got lucky with the priority pick and with Franklin, Roughead, Hodge and having serious A grade talent.

Geelong, Swans, Eagles, Port, Brisbane, Essendon - the past premiers all did it the right way.

[The Donners]

Our side over the past 2 years has been finals bound when we've had our best 22 out there. When we've had our experienced players leading the way we've played some good footy and matched most sides.

When we've had a few injuries and the kids have been given a go we've been smashed.

Maybe the kids aren't up to it?

Bingo! :thumbsu:

The question is then, how do we know that they will not suit Knights' game plan? How do we know Dodoro has done a good job since he's been at the club? (Can someone please tell me when that is?)

What is Dodoro's hit/miss ratio? I realise his role has changed but he was, at a stage, our recruiting manager. Some say we have the worst list in the competition and our youth are poor... if this is so, when does Dodoro/Keane get given the chop like so many of our draft picks since c.1999 up until about c.2005? (time will tell how many remain from the '06-'08 drafts)

[The Donners]

Sheeds has the right policy. If you are good enough and can contribute then you get a game.

Ryder didn't pick himself. Sheeds threw him in there before he was ready. Sheeds had a tendency to give the first round picks a game before they deserved it.

Monfries wasn't given a go in midfield because he can't play there. Haven't you been watching him the past 5 years. Why doesn't he get a go now. Why didn't he get a go last year with Knights? It's pretty simple.


1st paragraph: I disagree, Sheedy thought he was bigger than the club. Sheedy made his own noose by playing

2nd paragraph: Contradicts your first paragraph.

3rd paragraph: If Monfries body ever matures (what does our conditioning staff do???) then he would be a considerable asset in our midfield.

[ant555]

Bingo! :thumbsu:

The question is then, how do we know that they will not suit Knights' game plan? How do we know Dodoro has done a good job since he's been at the club? (Can someone please tell me when that is?)

What is Dodoro's hit/miss ratio? I realise his role has changed but he was, at a stage, our recruiting manager. Some say we have the worst list in the competition and our youth are poor... if this is so, when does Dodoro/Keane get given the chop like so many of our draft picks since c.1999 up until about c.2005? (time will tell how many remain from the '06-'08 drafts)

Would be rather harsh to give Keane the chop after only two drafts but some would argue that Dodoro has past his use by date.

Dodoro has only been an average performer IMO. In saying that one does have to account for the fact that our recruting set up was rather ordinary for a good 5 or 6 years and the board should be taking the full heat for that.

[ant555]

And for those arguing about Ryders first season.
The only reason he played was we did not have a number two ruckman becasue of injuries to Laycock, Cartledge and Henno.
His selection was not based on form or on Sheedy wanting him to play.
He got selected becasue there where no other ruck options

[The Donners]

Would be rather harsh to give Keane the chop after only two drafts but some would argue that Dodoro has past his use by date. What were Keane's successes at Richmond? How long was he there? They haven't won a premiership since 1980 so from the introduction of the draft system c1986 to c.2004 the drafting on the whole has not been good enough to win a premiership, was Keane there at all during that period?

Dodoro has only been an average performer IMO. In saying that one does have to account for the fact that our recruting set up was rather ordinary for a good 5 or 6 years and the board should be taking the full heat for that.

Why would Essendon, the greatest team of all, stick with mediocrity? That is something I expect from the St. Kilda Football Club or the Footscray Football Club.

At the risk of sounding self-righteous, as an Essendon member and supporter I expect better than average. Essendon should have the best possible list manager. I understand he does work behind the scenes but that does not bring you a premiership. I would not have Dodoro in vacinity of the football department.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

Why would Essendon, the greatest team of all, stick with mediocrity? That is something I expect from the St. Kilda Football Club or the Footscray Football Club.

At the risk of sounding self-righteous, as an Essendon member and supporter I expect better than average. Essendon should have the best possible list manager. I understand he does work behind the scenes but that does not bring you a premiership. I would not have Dodoro in vacinity of the football department.

Agreed. We haven't used our picks to the best we could and he's been the man in charge. Even if you'd place some blame on the board for what's been put in place, he hasn't exactly made any spectacular picks. We haven't had the best player from a draft in many, many years.

[The Donners]

Agreed. We haven't used our picks to the best we could and he's been the man in charge. Even if you'd place some blame on the board for what's been put in place, he hasn't exactly made any spectacular picks. We haven't had the best player from a draft in many, many years.

Our draft success in '93 and '00 was with Judkins at the helm ... Judkins left c.1996 and by then we had the nucleus of our '00 premiership.

[Daytripper]

Ignoring Gumbleton the draft in 06 was terrific for us. We got Jetta, Davey, Reimers and Houli who are all very good players with one an A grader (Davey).

Hislop was a failure but every draft throws up at least two picks who don't go on.

If (and a major if) Gumbleton can have some sort of senior career we would have done better than most that particular year.

[Lance Uppercut]

Ignoring Gumbleton the draft in 06 was terrific for us. We got Jetta, Davey, Reimers and Houli who are all very good players with one an A grader (Davey).

Hislop was a failure but every draft throws up at least two picks who don't go on.

If (and a major if) Gumbleton can have some sort of senior career we would have done better than most that particular year.

spot on!

[The Donners]

Ignoring Gumbleton the draft in 06 was terrific for us. We got Jetta, Davey, Reimers and Houli who are all very good players with one an A grader (Davey).

Hislop was a failure but every draft throws up at least two picks who don't go on.

If (and a major if) Gumbleton can have some sort of senior career we would have done better than most that particular year.

Playing the devil's advocate here, I love the look of Davey but with < 20 games under his belt over 2 years I wouldn't call him an A grader. I like the look of Reimers and Houli but they've effectively only played 1 season each. I recall Bradley looking like a good player at the same stage of his career. Jetta simply doesn't do enough, the jury is still out.

[Lance Uppercut]

Playing the devil's advocate here, I love the look of Davey but with < 20 games under his belt over 2 years I wouldn't call him an A grader. I like the look of Reimers and Houli but they've effectively only played 1 season each. I recall Bradley looking like a good player at the same stage of his career. Jetta simply doesn't do enough, the jury is still out.

but would more could you expect, effectively 2 seasons on?

I personally know Daytripper doesn't make these comments lightly. Anyone who's read his work will know that he's an extreme realist when it comes to draft picks. A very small percentage turn out to be 50 gamers, let alone A-Graders. I happen to agree with him.

Whatever happens from here, it's hard not to make the argument that 06 was a wonderful result for the EFC

[kelvin_sheedy]

Ignoring Gumbleton the draft in 06 was terrific for us. We got Jetta, Davey, Reimers and Houli who are all very good players with one an A grader (Davey).

Hislop was a failure but every draft throws up at least two picks who don't go on.

If (and a major if) Gumbleton can have some sort of senior career we would have done better than most that particular year.

Agree totally.

Jetta copes a lot of flak here and I'm not sure why. For most small guys he's tracking pretty much the same as a Boomer Harvey or Leon Davis in his first two years.

For me Jetta and Reimers will be our best two from 06 and I reckon will be serious A graders in 2 years and overtake Davey.

[Daytripper]

Agree totally.

Jetta copes a lot of flak here and I'm not sure why. For most small guys he's tracking pretty much the same as a Boomer Harvey or Leon Davis in his first two years.

For me Jetta and Reimers will be our best two from 06 and I reckon will be serious A graders in 2 years and overtake Davey.

I reckon people forget how good Alwyn is. To me he is the most important player at Essendon. When he went down last year the wheels fell off and our record without him is pretty ordinary.

[kelvin_sheedy]

I reckon people forget how good Alwyn is. To me he is the most important player at Essendon. When he went down last year the wheels fell off and our record without him is pretty ordinary.

No doubt but I think the scope for improvement in Jetta and Reimers is enormous. With him being a little older I don't think he'll improve as much as the others.

Maybe Alwyn is super important becaase in reality our forward line is very slow and not very mobile. Lloyd and Lucas can't get around as quickly anymore, Neagle isn't fit and Monfries is pretty slow.

[Lance Uppercut]

No doubt but I think the scope for improvement in Jetta and Reimers is enormous. With him being a little older I don't think he'll improve as much as the others.

Maybe Alwyn is super important becaase in reality our forward line is very slow and not very mobile. Lloyd and Lucas can't get around as quickly anymore, Neagle isn't fit and Monfries is pretty slow.

no, he's super important due to the implied pressure he creates

[Daytripper]

no, he's super important due to the implied pressure he creates

Exactly.

[kelvin_sheedy]

no, he's super important due to the implied pressure he creates

Yes, because when he's not their teams can run off the others and not worry about being caught.

They can't do that to the Hawks becuase Franklin, Roughead, Rioli, Williams will get ya...... and whoever else they put there.

I'm of the thinking that we can't play Lloyd, Lucas and Neagle in the one side on big grounds(MCG, AAMI, Subi) because of lack of mobility.

[ant555]

Friday, 2 March 2007
for essendonfc.com.au
Page 1 of 1
In an exciting move, Essendon have appointed Merv Keane as Senior Recruiting Coordinator. A step that will, in the long-term, aid the future success of the Club.

"It is a fantastic opportunity for Essendon to get someone like Merv who has an outstanding association with the game," Essendon List Manager Adrian Dodoro explained.

"We had a review of Football Operations last year and identified our need to bolster our resources in recruiting and have since secured Merv who is one of the champions of the game.

"He has seen football at many levels from playing to coaching and we felt that he had the necessary tools that we were looking for at the Club."

Commencing his new role with the Bombers on Monday, Keane’s duties will primarily involve the identification of junior players and he will oversee Essendon’s talent identifiers Australia-wide.

Keane’s long list of credentials including three VFL/AFL Premierships, 240 VFL/AFL GAMES, Team of the century at Richmond, and 11 Grand Finals as a player/coach.

Keane is also a former Assistant Coach at Essendon and has coached in the TAC Cup, VFL, SANFL and at state U18 and U15 level. More recently Merv has been a member of the Richmond Football Executive which oversaw the Richmond Football Club recruiting process.
---------------------------------------------------------------

For those asking about what Keane has done.

An answer to Donners, no he was not at Richmond for all of the draft period. I know he coached Sturt from 1986 to 1988 and he was coach at the Western Jets from 1992 to 1994 and the Calder Cannons in 1995.
He also coached Caulfied Grammarians in 2004 when they made the B grade GF. I think he also coached there in 2003.

He was involved with the state under 18 and under 16 sides in the late 1990's.

I do not know if he had previously been at Richmond in a recruiting capacity but i do know that he was an assistant to Greg Miller in 2005 and 2006.

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

I don't think anyone should be questioning Keane as he's only been here for two drafts. I personally just don't understand why Dodoro is still there.

[The Donners]

An answer to Donners

Cheers Ant! :thumbsu:

He certainly sounds like he's well credentialled! I knew of his footy career but had no idea about his extensive coaching career.

[yaco55]

Merv Keane was a reliable, but unobtrusive player , who was valued highly for being an excellent clubman.

He surprisingly polled only 2 Brownlow Medal votes in his career.