Should Matthew Richardson get a game this year?

[CJH]

As I pointed out in another thread, the post "Should Matthew Richardson get a game this year?" started by The Galloping Gasometer mysteriously disappeared.

Luckily enough, I was able to go back throught the history of pages in my PC's cache and find a copy of this thread.

I will reproduce it here, acknowledging the author of each post as I go.

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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

[CJH]

Poster by The Galloping Gasometer:

Given that Richmond's record of winning without the big poof is quite reasonable, do you think the match committee contemplated trading him this year. Maybe they tried and no other club wanted him. Maybe they should just delist him and make room on their list for a kid. They may be able to pick up a kid in the upcoming draft before the commencement of the new season. Maybe the kid will be a consistent player with half a heart. Unlike Richo the big nancy.

[CJH]

Posted by kymhodgemansmo:

Good point MICK.
I would think that its winning percentage is enhanced when the big dill avoids:

1. Running to the pockets.

2. Missing crucial goals.

3. Not handballing to teammates in a better spot.

4. Missing curcial goals

5. Taking marks and turning his back on the play.

6. Missing crucial goals.

7. Pushing that far up the ground when he is one out in the forward 50, because after all there is a reason you are one out in the forward 50 idiot.

8. Missing crucial goals.

9. Not playing in finals.

10. So he can avoid missing crucial goals in finals.

[CJH]

Posted by Tiger Tank:

If you have something constructive to say about the Richmond Football Club, even if it is critical, feel free to do so.

If not, rack off.

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TT

[CJH]

Posted by kymhodgemansmo:

I can assure you Tank that Mick & I are good friends, but hardly the same person, considering I live in Tasmania and he lives in Melbourne buddy .... and I can assure you we dont agree on everything, so by all means get upset, but I do believe that the criticism of Matthew Richardson was constructive, although not delivered in that fashion.
He plays in a similar ilk to McKernan and I can assure you, the two of them put together would not have half a football brain.
Exceptional athletes yes, but footballers no.

As a prudent observer of the game, I would say that in Richos long absences ie 1995 and last year, the Tiges were more than competitive.

With him, he has played some wonderful individual games but something seems to be lacking ie his ability to bring others into the game.

What do you think, and I do hope that was constructive


Cheers
Phil Kelly's best mate

[CJH]

Posted by TigerTank

kymhodgemansmo.
That was a thoughtful and reasoned response, and while I don't necessarily agree with all points, it was fair. McKernan and Richardson have the odd similarity that can frustrate.

Again, because of the tone it was written I will take your other statements at face value. You and the other fellow are two different people so I withdraw that remark, and apologise.

I will not apologise for defending my club's turf however. I think it fair that while on another club's board people show at least a little respect, as you did with that last response.

I hope future discussions between us can be conducted on this level.


PS. When Kim Hodgeman played for Glenelg he was my favourite player.


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TT

[CJH]

Posted by The Galloping Gasometer
:

TT and Hodgy
I was unaware that this site was such a regulated and complicated forum. I apologise for not fully appreciating the unwritten rules of the site.
In any event my initial comments about Richo (as Hodgy will no doubt be aware) stem from a similar frustration we have with McKernan.
My views on valid and frank discussions is that you have to start with a controversial thesis to achieve effective and healthy debate. Hence my first posting. As for on-line etiquette I would have thought that sledging fellow passionate lovers of the game would have also been off limit.
I didn't appreciate being called a ********.
My comments about Richo are controversial - but he deserves it. He is a professional sportsperson getting good dollars contributed to by people like us going thru the gates to watch the games. He is a big boy, I think he can handle it.
The intention was to see if fellow Richmond supporters also have some built up frustrations with a player at their club with a ton of ability who just doesn't perform regularily enough.
In any event had the moot point been discussed on a more sensible level, what I would have suggested was that maybe the Tigers and North can do a straight swap - Corey for Richo. Maybe that will relieve both clubs supporters of a lot of heartache.
Obviously the topic to hot to discuss so I will leave it there.
Unfortunate though.

[CJH]

Posted by TigerTank:

The Galloping Gasometer,
Again, a reasoned, intelligent response. I totally withdraw the insulting language and apologise (If you like I will also delete the offending posts).

As for sledging, I'm afraid there are some people on BigFooty who frankly deserve to be treated with scorn and contempt because they are twits (I now don't and won't include you in this category). You will quickly work out who they are.

In the interests of peace and goodwill (Tis the season) - May your support base double over the next five years.

Cheers,

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TT

[CJH]

Posted by The Galloping Gasometer:

TT,
Ditto to your comments.

Here's to a long and hopefully entertaining on-line understanding between us debating the finer points of the great game.

No doubt in the ensuing months many a hot topic will be discussed between us. Now that I know the rules (and quickly working out the good guys) looking forward to much more constructive banter between us.

Til next time.

[CJH]

Posted by TigerTank

As a footnote to this discussion, Richmond supporters might be frustrated occasionally by Richardson, but we still adore the guy.
His love of the club and attitude is fantastic, even if the execution can be a little ordinary at times.

Few realise that in his first year at Richmond, another club offered him twice as much to play with them. Richmond couln't afford to match the offer.

Instead of doing what many other kids have done (and who would blame them), Richardson told his father that he wanted to play for Richmond. He accepted the smaller offer.

While Richardson and McKernan can frustrate in equal measure, Richardson's greatest sin is trying too hard. If McKernan is the same then why would you want to lose him?

People suggest Richmond may be better off without their best player because of Richmond's form without him last year.

I have another theory, one that many Richmond supporters (myself included) are a little hesitant to offer because of our history of being disappointed.

Perhaps the Richmond side actually improved dramatically last year, regardless of the Richardson situation, and that the only thing the team needs is a super forward to take it into the top 4.

Remember, good big men often take a while to mature.

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TT

[CJH]

Posted by CJH:

I think that you are articulating the popular (mis?) conception of Richo. The traits that you mention would probably have been correct probably 3 years ago but I think he has improved considerably since then. I do think that you are undervaluing his 1999 season. Consider that with only 4 rounds to go he was rightly one of the Brownlow favorites. A combination of injury (again) and some outstanding form from Crawford put paid to that.
I guess from your North Melbourne perspective you wouldn't get to see him anywhere near as often as I do, and would also be watching him through different eyes. Richo truly is an astonishing player. If he were able to repeat his 1999 form again he would certainly be mentioned in the same breath as Carey, Kouta and Hird as the preeminent forwards currently playing the game.

I believe that his best football (ie 1999) was played as a roaming CHF. Moving him to Full Forward - as coaches are prone to doing - appear to stifle him. Combine this with our previously poor delivery out of the midfield and you would get to see many of the dummy spits that he is renowned for.

I have no issue with Richo pushing far and wide to gain kicks. The role of the CHF is to be a conduit between the midfield and forwards - and with Richmonds normal structure, there should be at least 2 other talls as well that could be used as marking targets.

I believe that in 1999 there were very few players that were able to match up on him. Previously Archer was one of those, but this hoodoo was broken in that year. That is, one Richo worked out that he was taller, bigger and faster than Archer - and not worry about the occasionaly smack behind the ears - he was able to consistently beat him

To this end, I dispute what you say about Richo being frustrating as the most recent football he has played has been both consistent and brilliant. Only problem is that it was such a long time ago! http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

To my way of thinking, there is only one question mark on Richo. Can he stand up to play without getting injured? It would be a shame if football were robbed of his abilities.

Now, if you had opened this topic up with are us Tiger supporters unhappy with Daffy, you would've had us queueing up.

Say, what about it - A straight swap. Daffy for McKernan!

http://members.tripod.com/bartron/afl/lgsmile-RICH.gif

[CJH]

Posted by Carey_is_King:

If I may,
I will accept 10 litres of rub down oil and a couple of clean towels for McKernan.
The most over-paid under-performed player (?) in the competition.

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Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

[CJH]

Posted by Pessimistic:

I think in 1999 Rich had a huge number of Marks (18) on our Hawk John Hay, But not one goal. I wasn't at the game but apparantly John managed to get him wunning too far out all the time. So this looks like a good contest to watch in the future.

[CJH]

Posted by tiger_of_old

i totally agree with cjh richo in the early years was like one of those spoilt kids who since birth always got what he wanted however since robert walls and thru to danny he has improved out of sight in this area and id go as far as saying the next captain if he is able to stay on his feet.
he is no doubt a match winner and thats one thing we have lacked to a point in our past captains over the last 20yrs a captain who can be classed as a match winner in the ilk of wayne carey in which richo fits that bill and like i said he has taken huge steps correcting is somewhat childish behavior from the past.
as for mckernan i think he is suffering from the carey factor im sure if he was at another club and he was the man then id say things might be different for him.
and yes id 100% agree to swap daffy for mckeran lol
cheers!

[CJH]

Posted by CJH

Posted by CIK
If I may,
I will accept 10 litres of rub down oil and a couple of clean towels for McKernan.
The most over-paid under-performed player (?) in the competition.

10 Litres of rubdown oil and towels would be too steep a price to pay! We will play hard ball and stick too our initial offer of a Daffy!


Posted by Pessimistic
I think in 1999 Rich had a huge number of Marks (18) on our Hawk John Hay, But not one goal. I wasn't at the game but apparantly John managed to get him wunning too far out all the time. So this looks like a good contest to watch in the future.

Pess,

I was at that game against Hawthorn. Have no doubt that Richo absolutely dominated. He played as CHF but did travel far and wide. I know he did not kick a goal but put the ball forward so often that it didn't matter.

I also appreciate that Jonathon Hay has matured (both physically and mentally) since then; that would be a very good match up to see now.

[kymhodgemansmo]

OK then, if a Centre Half Forward is a conduit beetween the midfield and the forward line, Richardsons ability to lead to the flanks and wide is not consistent with a direct philosophy which is in vogue at the moment and the style I watched Richmond play the five times I watched them last year.

As a conduit then, it is one thing to get the ball between centre and forward, but it as another to deliver it.
From what I have seen of Richardson, he has no problem taking uncontested marks in awkward positions of the ground, but he does have difficulty taking marks in hotspots where possession is dangerous.

His ability to deispose of the ball and bring others into the play appears almost non existent, just as his bulking frame and "footy smarts" are not in the same league as a Carey who made the likes of Brett Allison, Winston Abraham and Shannon Grant look fantastic due to his sense in opening packs and creating opportunities, all of which I do not believe Richardson is capable of comprehending, simiar to McKernan.

No doubt he has some wonderful attributes, but I just believe that as a leader he leads to poor positions on the ground from which it is difficult to score, his delivery into the forward 50 would be in the bottom quartiile of the competition if there is such a thing but as an excitemnt machine he is a great player.

As a premiership captain, or captain, leader and go to man of a club desperate for success, I cannot see it in him.

Having met him and enjoyed a few beers with him on a number of ocassions he is a wonderful, likeable fellow with a hunger for the game.

But I also have a passion for mathematics but if you can't punch the right numbers into the calculator, you can't solve the problem.

Likewise if Richo can't program that machine of his into being a footballer, then he will continue to be a wonderful athlete on the cusp of greatness, but who will leave the game recognised as a great but not in the elite.

My opinion only, and based on the fact that some players have a footy brain, others don't.

Richardson is not a creator, not a deliverer and an ordinary finisher when left one out up forward.

How that rates him among the current crop of forwards, I dont know.

But he is no Hird or Carey.

And by the way if I am overstepping the mark by commenting in this forum please ensure you let me know.


[This message has been edited by kymhodgemansmo (edited 14 December 2000).]

[goatmaster]

I remember a few years ago watching a game at the Gabba on TV where Don Scott talked about Richo & said he is a marvelous athlete but no footballer as he had no footy smarts.
I would say it is a very harsh judge who puts the man down considering he has probably been BOG in about 6 of his last 12 games.
I personally have a feeling that Tiger tanks post of Richmond improved so much that a big forward is what they need may be true. I think they may be top4 next year
On the trade matter if they had offered him they would have ben killed in the rush.

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Goatmaster
the prime minister of the principality of Mooball

[CJH]

kymhodgemansmo

I agree with you that Richmond played a more direct brand of football this year. Further to this, we also focused on delivering the ball with precision into the forward line, as opposed to our previous tact of bombing it long and hoping for the best.

I agree with you that Richo’s foot passing skills do not match those of – say – Matthew Knights! I agree with your assertion that he would be in the 25th percentile in terms of this skill.

I will point out that Richo only played 3 games this year under the new disciplined Frawley style of play. This is way too small a sample to draw any conclusions from, especially considering we were crap at the start of this season.

My comments on Richo are really written in the context of season 1999 where he arguably had the best season of his career, playing as either a full or centre half forward. The fact that his delivery is poor would not have been an issue as the style of play employed by us was just to bomb long to a hot spot.

…he does have difficulty in taking marks in hotspots where possession is dangerous.

I dispute this statement. If nothing else, Richo can and does mark in any position in the forward line. Unfortunately I do not have this statistic handy – as I sit on the train writing this – but his proportion of contested marks is very high. I only remember this as it was one statistic I used to monitor during that particular season. Contested marks taken would be comparable with the ilk of Carey et al.

I find some amusement in your assertion about Richo leading to poor positions. It does cause angst amongst Richmond supporters, but for the opposite reasons to what you suggest. You see, if Richo marks 50m out, right on the boundary line – which would be considered a poor position – we would expect him to kick it! Conversely, if he does mark in a hotspot – say 25m out, directly in front – we all certainly are a little bit more nervous!

In a previous post, I mentioned that if his 1999 form can be maintained consistently over a number of seasons, then he would be mentioned in the same breath as Carey, Kouta and Hird. I still stand by this comment, even if it is entirely subjective and based on the small sample of a single season.

As a means to try and bring some objectivity to this argument I sourced the statistics of Richo, Carey and Lloyd for the past 3 seasons to see how they managed to compare. I chose these 3 players as they all played consistently as forwards for this period even though Lloyd played a predominantly at Full Forward and Carey the majority at Center Half Forward. Richo’s time would be split between the two.

I should also note that these were probably 3 of Carey’s finest years, while Richo spent a fair part of 1998 recovering from a broken arm injured in the Ansett Cup. Mattthew Lloyd – particularly in 1998 - was still developing as a player, so it may not be fair comparing a teenager with two senior players in their prime.

The results for all 3 players were remarkably similar:


Carey averages 14 kicks per game compared to Richo 11.5 and Lloyd 11.6. (Maybe due to Carey spending proportionately more time up the field)
Richo averages 8 marks per game compared to Carey 7.5 and Lloyd 6.9.
Carey averages 4.5 handballs per game compared with Richo 3.2 and Lloyd 2.8
Lloyd averages 3.8 goals a game, only marginally ahead of Richo (3.5) and Carey (3.3). (Again, this could be explained by the proportions of time spent forward or up the ground)
Richo averages 2.3 points per game against Lloyd (2) and Carey (1.8).
Conversion percentages are Lloyd (65.8), Carey (64.3) and Richo (60.0)
[*}Inside 50 stats were remarkably similar with Carey (3.9) slightly ahead of Richo (3.6) and Lloyd (3.0) (Which contradicts the observation of respective positions)
Lloyd and Carey have played 70 and 68 games compared to Richo’s meagre 39.


It might not be fair using 2000 for Richo because of just the 3 games played, but I couldn’t use 1997 either as Lloyd would have only been 17 – not a fair way to compare.

I appreciate that these statistics do not tell a full story as the impact of football smarts is very difficult to quantify. Nonetheless, after giving this topic much more thought I still feel that you are judging Richo (and for that matter McKernan) quite harshly. Let’s face it, you are comparing him to Carey who will probably go down in history as the second greatest Centre Half Forward ever.

After Royce Hart of course!

http://members.tripod.com/bartron/afl/lgsmile-RICH.gif

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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

[Jono]

Since this thread has been bumped up...

Go Richo :cool:

[CoggaRules]

time to light another fire under the big fella's ass, not that he really needs one, but it might be time to produce some match winning stats against quality opposition Richo.
Averages, kind of hide the real deal dont they? ;)

[sante]

Richo is the heart and soul of RFC

[Lenny*]

RFC will not win a premiership with this man playing.

[Kurtis G]

RFC will not win a premiership with this man playing.
Freakin squares tick me off.

Last year it was Tivendale blah blah. I think people should stop making stoopid "calls" like the one above.

Richo hasnt set thegoal scoring sheet on fire this season, but he has been playing one hell of a role. If you havent noticed by now, he runs and runs and runs and runs and runs and runs and runs all day, in every game, busting packs and setting things up from the wing. He is really versatile these days and if we have a few options up forward why not push Richo back or put him on the wing or on the ball.

Richo is a freakin star and anyone who questions his integrity, his heart and his ability needs to check their head.

[wart101]

Go richo, i hate this post.

[wart101]

Freakin squares tick me off.

Last year it was Tivendale blah blah. I think people should stop making stoopid "calls" like the one above.

Richo hasnt set thegoal scoring sheet on fire this season, but he has been playing one hell of a role. If you havent noticed by now, he runs and runs and runs and runs and runs and runs and runs all day, in every game, busting packs and setting things up from the wing. He is really versatile these days and if we have a few options up forward why not push Richo back or put him on the wing or on the ball.

Richo is a freakin star and anyone who questions his integrity, his heart and his ability needs to check their head.

yes yes, if anyone doubts he's ability they should go back and watch this seasons games esspecially the brisbane game, just cause he didn't kick any goals last weekend don't mean ****. he played a vutal part in our win and if you don't belive me go back and watch the game. again, i hate this post

[wart101]

kymhodgemansmo

I agree with you that Richmond played a more direct brand of football this year. Further to this, we also focused on delivering the ball with precision into the forward line, as opposed to our previous tact of bombing it long and hoping for the best.

I agree with you that Richo’s foot passing skills do not match those of – say – Matthew Knights! I agree with your assertion that he would be in the 25th percentile in terms of this skill.

I will point out that Richo only played 3 games this year under the new disciplined Frawley style of play. This is way too small a sample to draw any conclusions from, especially considering we were crap at the start of this season.

My comments on Richo are really written in the context of season 1999 where he arguably had the best season of his career, playing as either a full or centre half forward. The fact that his delivery is poor would not have been an issue as the style of play employed by us was just to bomb long to a hot spot.



I dispute this statement. If nothing else, Richo can and does mark in any position in the forward line. Unfortunately I do not have this statistic handy – as I sit on the train writing this – but his proportion of contested marks is very high. I only remember this as it was one statistic I used to monitor during that particular season. Contested marks taken would be comparable with the ilk of Carey et al.

I find some amusement in your assertion about Richo leading to poor positions. It does cause angst amongst Richmond supporters, but for the opposite reasons to what you suggest. You see, if Richo marks 50m out, right on the boundary line – which would be considered a poor position – we would expect him to kick it! Conversely, if he does mark in a hotspot – say 25m out, directly in front – we all certainly are a little bit more nervous!

In a previous post, I mentioned that if his 1999 form can be maintained consistently over a number of seasons, then he would be mentioned in the same breath as Carey, Kouta and Hird. I still stand by this comment, even if it is entirely subjective and based on the small sample of a single season.

As a means to try and bring some objectivity to this argument I sourced the statistics of Richo, Carey and Lloyd for the past 3 seasons to see how they managed to compare. I chose these 3 players as they all played consistently as forwards for this period even though Lloyd played a predominantly at Full Forward and Carey the majority at Center Half Forward. Richo’s time would be split between the two.

I should also note that these were probably 3 of Carey’s finest years, while Richo spent a fair part of 1998 recovering from a broken arm injured in the Ansett Cup. Mattthew Lloyd – particularly in 1998 - was still developing as a player, so it may not be fair comparing a teenager with two senior players in their prime.

The results for all 3 players were remarkably similar:

Carey averages 14 kicks per game compared to Richo 11.5 and Lloyd 11.6. (Maybe due to Carey spending proportionately more time up the field)
Richo averages 8 marks per game compared to Carey 7.5 and Lloyd 6.9.
Carey averages 4.5 handballs per game compared with Richo 3.2 and Lloyd 2.8
Lloyd averages 3.8 goals a game, only marginally ahead of Richo (3.5) and Carey (3.3). (Again, this could be explained by the proportions of time spent forward or up the ground)
Richo averages 2.3 points per game against Lloyd (2) and Carey (1.8).
Conversion percentages are Lloyd (65.8), Carey (64.3) and Richo (60.0)
[*}Inside 50 stats were remarkably similar with Carey (3.9) slightly ahead of Richo (3.6) and Lloyd (3.0) (Which contradicts the observation of respective positions)
Lloyd and Carey have played 70 and 68 games compared to Richo’s meagre 39.
It might not be fair using 2000 for Richo because of just the 3 games played, but I couldn’t use 1997 either as Lloyd would have only been 17 – not a fair way to compare.

I appreciate that these statistics do not tell a full story as the impact of football smarts is very difficult to quantify. Nonetheless, after giving this topic much more thought I still feel that you are judging Richo (and for that matter McKernan) quite harshly. Let’s face it, you are comparing him to Carey who will probably go down in history as the second greatest Centre Half Forward ever.

After Royce Hart of course!

http://members.tripod.com/bartron/afl/lgsmile-RICH.gif

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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.


Dude, i love this, and again, i hate this post.

[lucas_hsv]

I think they may be top4 next year


And that we were.

[CJH]

WTF...

Why has this thread resurfaced?