View Full Version : Lloyd + Lucas + Neagle
kelvin_sheedy
9 Jun 2009, 21:22
This combination hasn't worked this year and it's very doubtful that it can. To slow, no mobility and with the likes of Monfries and Skipworth up there it is a recipe for disaster.
So what do we do? Drop Neagle? We need to develop him and our forward line has functioned better with him and Lloyd working in tandem. He gives us our only contested marking option.
Drop Lucas after him coming back and playing a decent game?
Play all three and give ourselves less chance of winning?
Play all three but drop Monfries and Skipworth and add pace around them?
It's a dilemma which will give us an indication of what the coaching staff are thinking.
Personally I'd have stuck with Neagle and Lloyd and let Scotty sit in the VFL. I'd prefer to see McPhee go back forward once Fletcher is back and have the forward line of Neagle, Lloyd, McPhee, Davey, Jetta + Welsh/Reimers/Winderlich rotating through.
Thoughts?
AndyLesPaul
9 Jun 2009, 21:35
Lucas was in so he could do the ruckwork.
I'd say after that performance you'd think he'd deserve his spot back in the team?
Also, depending on the speed of Melbourne's backline, we should be fine with Neagle + Lucas and Lloyd.
It would also completely take advantage of Carltons Hurley-less backline.
So essentially, I'd say for the next two matches, it can only do us good?
it can work and it needs to be given time. i'm sick of seeing lloyd pushing up the ground as a target. keep him the square rotating 20-30m out with neagle.
i doubt any changes will be made this round as the bombers will try and look to stretch the demons backline
Lucas was in so he could do the ruckwork.
I'd say after that performance you'd think he'd deserve his spot back in the team?
Also, depending on the speed of Melbourne's backline, we should be fine with Neagle + Lucas and Lloyd.
It would also completely take advantage of Carltons Hurley-less backline.
So essentially, I'd say for the next two matches, it can only do us good?
Spot on.
Lloyd was goaless in the first 2 rounds, then kicked 5 against Carlton rnd 3. Carlton could be the game Lloyd regains some good form if not the Melbourne game. Neagle and Lucas will cause them big headaches especially with no Waite.
rainman06
9 Jun 2009, 21:46
It can work. Knights has shown that all three of them will be benched from time to time if circumstances allow. We are not going to see a scoreline of Lloyd 5, Neagle 5, Lucas 5 but if Lucas and Neagle can contribute towards 2 or 3 goals and Lloydie does his thing then there is no reason why it cannot work.
Skipworth was better than Monfries on the weekend. I understand the pace predicament but I wouldnt be dropping either of them. Maybe only 1 of them can be in the forwardline at any one time.
Darealrath
9 Jun 2009, 22:56
Knights really doesn't want to drop Neagle, can't drop Lloyd (and shouldn't) and won't drop Lucas after playing so well - but I agree that it appears it doesn't work well at present.
I think people are harsh on Monfries. Forward pocket is a damn hard position from which to play consistent footy, but he usually finds a way to contribute and every so often is one of our best. That leaves 2 spots. I think we need to play two of Jetta, Davey and Reimers to create that forward pressure. Problem is Jetta has been so inconsistent and Reimers has only just come back.
Hopefully with Reimers, Prismall and McVeigh playing more footy in the 2nd half of the season, being 3 of our best kicks, we will see the three talls be more of a weapon than a liability.
bombersrbest05
9 Jun 2009, 23:13
Lloyd needs to play in the forward 50 against Melbourne and hopefully kick 7 like last year and take mark of the year
resurrector
10 Jun 2009, 01:36
play all 3, sit mcphee on the wing if the backline gets too heavy, sit one of the big 3 on the pine if the fwd line get heavy....always ensure we have 2 of reimers, davey or jetta on at the same time as having only one of either monfries or skipworth.
that way we have size, pacey crumbers and a medium sized player capable of an overhead grab. seems like a decent balance for me.
Longy413
10 Jun 2009, 08:49
How can you say it hasn't worked all year when we kicked 18 goals on the weekend and our midfield didn't show up in the last quarter and a half?
If Neagle doesn't play, Lucas doesn't kick four goals playing on Rutten.
I personally have my doubts over all three in the same side, but I would love to test it out over the next couple of games.
Lloyd is our captain and will stay in the side, so personally I think it is between Neagle or Lucas, and the latter gets the chocs.
We'll see how they go this week, if we can get at least two goals from each of them, then they have done their job.
kelvin_sheedy
10 Jun 2009, 11:02
How can you say it hasn't worked all year when we kicked 18 goals on the weekend and our midfield didn't show up in the last quarter and a half?
If Neagle doesn't play, Lucas doesn't kick four goals playing on Rutten.
We are 0-2 with them in the side.
In both games we've got killed in run out of defence.
Maybe our midfield didn't show up because we were one man down that could actually run.
Are there any other sides in the league playing 3 big forwards who are not mobile?
Longy413
10 Jun 2009, 11:58
We are 0-2 with them in the side.
We're 0-1 with Prismall and Reimers in the side. Rule them out for the year?
We got flogged by Port and we should have beaten Adelaide. We should be 1-1.
In both games we've got killed in run out of defence.
Against Port we got killed everywhere. Against Adelaide we got killed in the ruck and at the stoppages. The ball wasn't in our forward line enough in the second half to get killed in run out of defense.
Maybe our midfield didn't show up because we were one man down that could actually run.
Then we shouldn't have played Prismall and Reimers.
Do you remember Reimers standing behind an Adelaide player who had the ball after taking a mark?
He couldn't run to find a man or to fill space. Lloyd and Neagle both had a man at the time.
We played three midfielders who didn't play in the midfield for a lot of the game (McVeigh being the third).
Are there any other sides in the league playing 3 big forwards who are not mobile?
Lloyd and Neagle are mobile. Neagle needs to give more efforts, it's not his size that is the issue.
Lloyd's defensive pressure this year has been first rate, best of his career.
St Kilda rest Gardiner forward, when King rucks and Gwilt effectively plays as a third or fourth tall.
Geelong with Ottens in the side go tall forward.
We were just two points shy of our second highest score for the season. The forward line wasn't the problem.
That said, I wouldn't play Lucas because I don't think he offers enough over a number of weeks. But that's not because he is tall, if he was fit I'd play him and likewise Gumby.
If Hille was in the side, he or Ryder would spend a lot more time forward.
Three tall forwards is something we're going to have to get used to.
kelvin_sheedy
10 Jun 2009, 12:19
If Hille was in the side, he or Ryder would spend a lot more time forward.
Three tall forwards is something we're going to have to get used to.
No problem with that and I can't wait till next season because we'll see Hille and Ryder spend a lot more time up forward. Hille can take a contest mark and so can Ryder. Ryder has super mobility.
Lloyd and Lucas can't take contested marks anymore. It wasn't there strong suit anyway.
3 tall forwards is not a problem as long as the mix is right. The Lloyd, Lucas, Neagle mix is not right because it lacks zip. When you add Monfries and Skipworth to the mix then it's just not good.
Lloyd and Lucas can't take contested marks anymore. It wasn't there strong suit anyway.
Might want to re-think putting Lloyd in the category of can't take conteste mark / never strong suit anyway.
I tend to agree that the biggest problem last week was with the midfield breaking down after half time.
I don't recall anyone dominating off half back for Adelaide. All of their good work came out of the midfield and up forward. These were the areas where we had unfit and unmobile players.
Nice post, Kelvin.
I don't mind us persisting with the three-tall experiment for a little while, as somebody pointed out, it will free up one of the three. For example against Adelaide, Bock and Rutten were always going to take two of the three, with the last (Lucas) given more freedom. I think all three are dangerous enough to do some serious damage if given enough space.
However I agree that our forward line has possibly been too one-dimensional. I would like to see a forward line consisting of:
HF: Davey Lucas Monfries/Skipworth
FF: Neagle Lloyd Jetta/Reimers
That we have three big forward, with Monfries/Skipworth as the lead-up fourth forward. Davey would be creating the forward-line pressure he's so good at manifesting, with Jetta/Reimers to play the traditional crumbing role. Jetta seems to struggle playing out entire games, and Reimers is going to struggle for fitness for much of the season. The latter has shown he can be deadly at the feet of a pack, too.
hird+lloyd=legends
10 Jun 2009, 15:30
Look we need to keep Neagle in the side as he Lloyds replacement when he retires. Neagles our next FF. We need to think long term here, wouldnt you rather Neagle to get as many games as he can now, so when lloyds gone and he is the main FF target he would already have a few yrs under his belt to get used to the rigids of AFL football. Neagle stays.
SirJimi05
10 Jun 2009, 15:33
I do agree with Kelvin that a forward line of Lloyd, Lucas, Neagle, Gus and Skippy will not function well.
It is not the 3 talls that is the problem but the lack of zip as Kelvin put it.
Davey seems to be playing a lot more in the mid/wing these days so there are periods of time where we miss his harrassing/pace in the forward line.
Once Boots gets his match fitness up he will be a welcomed addition. Jetta is another option but i cant justify having a guy in the team solely because he is good at harrassing. He needs to do more to earn a spot.
reincarnated
10 Jun 2009, 21:25
Does anyone think that we drafted Skipworth because we thought he would be in our best 18 or 22? I didn't think we did.
I personally thought he would be a back up for Watson, McVeigh and Lonergan, with JJ and Pevrille getting the chop. Nothing against the man as he hasn't been bad, but when he got injured I thought it was blessing in disguise.
Waite might be injued, but from what I've seen their backline has been impressive since. Like Ryder & Hille situation, couple of their kids have stepped up. (Gregg and Austin I think.) They've played some fast attacking football out of defense.
So Lucas, Lloyd and Neagle on the ground at the same time, with Skipworth is not something I would be looking forward to. If you going to name them, then atleast Play two talls on the ground at any one time.
ie.
Play Lloyd at FF and Lucas at HF and Negale bench
Then Lucas goes for a rest. Lloyd at HF and Neagle at FF
Then Lloyde goes for rest. Lucas HF and Neagle FF.
Jetta, Davey, Reimers and Zaharakis attacking the feet of the talls for crumps at different times.
Duckworth
10 Jun 2009, 21:43
Does anyone think that we drafted Skipworth because we thought he would be in our best 18 or 22? I didn't think we did.
I personally thought he would be a back up for Watson, McVeigh and Lonergan, with JJ and Pevrille getting the chop. Nothing against the man as he hasn't been bad, but when he got injured I thought it was blessing in disguise.
There was a good article that kind of outlines part of the reason why we picked him up. Looking at his mentoring role of Pears and Myers (on and off the field). As well as having a high skill set for VFL level.
So Lucas, Lloyd and Neagle on the ground at the same time, with Skipworth is not something I would be looking forward to. If you going to name them, then atleast Play two talls on the ground at any one time.
I would classify this as something of a learning year for many younger players. Noone (at the start of the year) was expecting us to make finals. Having the experienced players on the field will be invaluable for the development of the younger players. This includes mentally and physically. It is not sustainable for a young and undeveloped player to play tough physical football for a whole season. I'd imagine that Gumbleton was factored into these learning plans as well....
Although it can look horrible at times I'm happy to wear it (3 talls) in the short term for the development of the younger players. Think back to the start of Knights coaching with the mad running style. It cost us a lot of goals... but i think it was ultimately better for the team. I feel that it's the same with playing the 3 talls in the same team. We need to be patient and let it work (Knights has a plan) and hopefully we will see the rewards next year. Neagle is already making smarter decisions this year with his leading.
Nebioglu
10 Jun 2009, 23:19
Who is our forwards coach?
Because Lloyd up at half forward really shits me purely because Neagle doesnt offer enough pressure when the ball gets in their... It just bounces right back out...
Whereas Lloyd sort of holds it in the forward 50m??
This is the impression i get anyway.. your thoughts?
Mad Bomber Sean
12 Jun 2009, 23:23
To early to say for sure the LLoyd, Lucas & Neagle combo is a failure.
But I agree that we simply must have either Davey, & either Jetta or Reimers in the side next to them.
Who said that either Monfries, Skippy or Mcphee needs to play in that forward six structure.
How about a fwd line of:
Davey Lloyd Jetta
Lucas Remeirs Neagle
Or some other variation of this??
cant play jetta and davey in same team. jetta is a poor mans davey.
Hirdman
13 Jun 2009, 10:23
cant play jetta and davey in same team. jetta is a poor mans davey.
^^ That just does not make sense.
I agree with all those suggesting the Lucas/Lloyd/Neagle/Skipworth and Monfries foward line is too slow, although I reject the premise that Lloyd is not agile and doesnt offer forward line pressure.
Neagle is basically redundant as soon as the ball hits the deck and Lucas isnt much better, although as everyone has stated their is little option in continuing to try the mix for the next few weeks. I would like to see a mix of Jetta/Davey/Winderlich/Reimers and Minfries with these guys.
Also playing these three in the same sides precludes Mcphee from playing up forward and with Fletcher coming back the balance will be interesting to maintain.
Slattery_20
13 Jun 2009, 10:54
cant play jetta and davey in same team. jetta is a poor mans davey.
Has Davey hit a target this year?
Valve Bounce
13 Jun 2009, 11:36
I'm just hoping that with the extra week's rest, Scotty will be even better than last week. WE do need him to there to take the pressure off Lloyd. I don't know about Neagle, as I think he still needs to develop. Perhaps as a forward pocket, and a few go's at rucking might help.
Best thing is :let Knights figure it out!.
Slattery_20
13 Jun 2009, 11:43
The last thing we need is another ruck who can't run 20 metres
Put him in the forward line, kick the ball to him, he will kick goals.
Wahooti Fandango
26 Jul 2009, 18:53
Our forward structure today was shit. We had plenty of entries into the forward 50, but we kicked it to Davey instead of Lucas and Lloyd. The players seem not to know where they should be. I think ant mentioned something like this on another thread and I think that he is spot on.
AndyLesPaul
26 Jul 2009, 19:05
What was even worse was that in the last quarter McVeigh was playing Lloyds role, and was getting owned.
McPhee would be a welcome inclusion to the forward line, and one would think a welcome exclusion of the backline.
OzBomber
26 Jul 2009, 19:21
Was Hurley up forward in the last quarter? I can't remember. If not it's pretty dissapointing because he would've been a good target to kick to.
Hirdman
26 Jul 2009, 19:28
As the game wore on the team actualy lost faith in Lucas, they wouldnt kick it to him and that made him a complete drag on the team - sorry Scotty its all over. I feel terrible in saying it as he has been a wonderful servaant, but he is done.
Wahooti Fandango
26 Jul 2009, 19:30
I don't think that it is past him. I still think that he offers us something. It is more the set up of the forward line that is the problem or maybe the players are not executing the plans of Knights.
As posted in another thread:
Time to step-up, Neagle.
To be honest I'm excited; in past games Lloyd has had to play out of position up the ground to accommodate Neagle. Now With Lloyd out, it gives us the opportunity to maintain a 'normal' structure with Lucas as our CHF, and Neagle out of the square.
Great opportunity.
Wahooti Fandango
26 Jul 2009, 19:39
As posted in another thread:
Time to step-up, Neagle.
To be honest I'm excited; in past games Lloyd has had to play out of position up the ground to accommodate Neagle. Now With Lloyd out, it gives us the opportunity to maintain a 'normal' structure with Lucas as our CHF, and Neagle out of the square.
Great opportunity.
The only problem is that he will struggle big time on the wide expanses of Subiaco, unless he plays exclusively within 30m of goal.
Hirdman
26 Jul 2009, 19:43
Lucas spent more time at FF than Lloyd today. He is actually a drag on the side, a liability, even if we deliver well to him his opponet is so close he doesnt take the mark, his kicking is now 50/50 and if the ball hits the deck we loose EVERY time.
Guys take the blinkers off, he is done. You can argue we dont have anyone else, I wouldnt neccessarily bring in Neagle as he is just as slow but try Hooker, try Hurley, try McPhee, try Daniher........
The only problem is that he will struggle big time on the wide expanses of Subiaco, unless he plays exclusively within 30m of goal.Yeah very true.
However I'm content with being optimistic, if not misguided. :D
dave_27
26 Jul 2009, 19:48
Lucas is finished. Anyone suggesting otherwise is too loyal to Lucas and one eyed.
He should be dropped this week and given a farewell game in Round 22 against Hawthorn.
Wahooti Fandango
26 Jul 2009, 19:52
Yeah very true.
However I'm content with being optimistic, if not misguided. :D
Nothing wrong with looking at the positives. :thumbsu:
AndyLesPaul
26 Jul 2009, 21:23
Lucas spent more time at FF than Lloyd today. He is actually a drag on the side, a liability, even if we deliver well to him his opponet is so close he doesnt take the mark, his kicking is now 50/50 and if the ball hits the deck we loose EVERY time.
Guys take the blinkers off, he is done. You can argue we dont have anyone else, I wouldnt neccessarily bring in Neagle as he is just as slow but try Hooker, try Hurley, try McPhee, try Daniher........
Hurley spent more time at FF today then Lloyd, I'm sorry but i fail to see your point, who is finished?
If it is Lucas, then why? He is still a viable forward option for us.
If it is Lloyd, then he was injured?
kelvin_sheedy
26 Jul 2009, 21:25
I can't tolerate it anymore. They both can't play in the one side.
Please Knights for christs sake...you said you would make the hard decisions but so far have done nothing but strange contradictory things.
FFS we got it in there 55 times and they couldn't snag it. Neagle would have given us a presence and at least brought the ball to ground.
I'd rather lose on Neagle than give old guys a farewell tour.
I can't tolerate it anymore. They both can't play in the one side.
Please Knights for christs sake...you said you would make the hard decisions but so far have done nothing but strange contradictory things.
FFS we got it in there 55 times and they couldn't snag it. Neagle would have given us a presence and at least brought the ball to ground.
I'd rather lose on Neagle than give old guys a farewell tour.
Kelvin
You are getting soft !
EFC won't win premierships with Lloyd and Lucas in the team.
They should be retired at the end of 2009.
Why does EFC have to play Neagle.
Cant EFC mix and match their forward line - with a mixture of smalls, mids and talls.
Lucas spent more time at FF than Lloyd today. He is actually a drag on the side, a liability, even if we deliver well to him his opponet is so close he doesnt take the mark, his kicking is now 50/50 and if the ball hits the deck we loose EVERY time.
Guys take the blinkers off, he is done. You can argue we dont have anyone else, I wouldnt neccessarily bring in Neagle as he is just as slow but try Hooker, try Hurley, try McPhee, try Daniher........
Totally argee. Lucas is a champion but we can not afford to have him in the side anymore. His days of taking a part a game are well and truly over and he is too slow and inconsistent. He player well on the smaller SCG but on the MCG he is exposed. There was countless times yesterday when the Richmond defenders ran off him and he wasn;t able to apply any pressure at all. We need to get someone forward experience into another one of our young players before the year is out. Our forward structure has been woeful for the last two weeks.
Hurley spent more time at FF today then Lloyd, I'm sorry but i fail to see your point, who is finished?
If it is Lucas, then why? He is still a viable forward option for us.
If it is Lloyd, then he was injured?
I was drunk and rabbid, too drunk to realise Hurley played FF??!!
I meant Lucas, and I really disagree with you if you think he is stil a viable forward option. He is done.