View Full Version : Warne's drug hearing
dr nick
21 Feb 2003, 07:52
should be underway as we speak, and will probably last for most of the day.
either way, warne's hopes rest on whether his lawyers can prove he was not taking the moduretic for the purpose of masking a performance enhancing drug.
i'm not sure how they are able to do that, because some sources claim he took more than one tablet whilst others say you cant tell from tests like these (which i find hard to believe) how many tablets he took.
if the tests can't distinguish how many tablets you took then its going to be pretty difficult for warney's lawyers to argue that he didnt take enough of the stuff to mask anything.
maybe his mum's word will be enough??
maybe the fact that duncan spencer got 18 months for being caught with the steroid nandrolone, or graeme rummans getting a $2000 fine and 1 month ban will set a precedent for the ACB to go easy with this case.
but i think if they manage to get warne anything less than a 2 year ban, i'll be doing my best to hire these guys if i should ever get into any drug related problems.
goal_umpire
21 Feb 2003, 08:58
Originally posted by nicko18
should be underway as we speak, and will probably last for most of the day.
either way, warne's hopes rest on whether his lawyers can prove he was not taking the moduretic for the purpose of masking a performance enhancing drug.
i'm not sure how they are able to do that, because some sources claim he took more than one tablet whilst others say you cant tell from tests like these (which i find hard to believe) how many tablets he took.
if the tests can't distinguish how many tablets you took then its going to be pretty difficult for warney's lawyers to argue that he didnt take enough of the stuff to mask anything.
maybe his mum's word will be enough??
maybe the fact that duncan spencer got 18 months for being caught with the steroid nandrolone, or graeme rummans getting a $2000 fine and 1 month ban will set a precedent for the ACB to go easy with this case.
but i think if they manage to get warne anything less than a 2 year ban, i'll be doing my best to hire these guys if i should ever get into any drug related problems.
He told the media that he took only one tablet.
One of the newspapers got it wrong( The Age).
Both Rummins and Spencer got done because they took them deliberately. Warnie's was for weight loss.
dr nick
21 Feb 2003, 09:34
Originally posted by suzi_olsen
He told the media that he took only one tablet.
One of the newspapers got it wrong( The Age).
Both Rummins and Spencer got done because they took them deliberately. Warnie's was for weight loss.
warne took the tablet deliberately. the age did not get it wrong. it would help if you understood the issues before you commented on them.
oh, HE said he only took one tablet. that must be right.
i spose warne was right when he said he had absolutely nothing to do with indian bookmakers? i spose he was telling the truth when he denied ever calling a british nurse on a mobile phone? i spose he is telling the truth when he blames joe the cameraman??
goal_umpire
21 Feb 2003, 10:11
Originally posted by nicko18
warne took the tablet deliberately. the age did not get it wrong. it would help if you understood the issues before you commented on them.
oh, HE said he only took one tablet. that must be right.
i spose warne was right when he said he had absolutely nothing to do with indian bookmakers? i spose he was telling the truth when he denied ever calling a british nurse on a mobile phone? i spose he is telling the truth when he blames joe the cameraman??
He didn't take it deliberately that's where you're wrong.
I do trust warnie unlike you who is turning your back on him.
Malibu#27
21 Feb 2003, 10:13
Originally posted by suzi_olsen
He didn't take it deliberately that's where you're wrong.
I do trust warnie unlike you who is turning your back on him.
Of course he took it deliberately -- and Warny even said that.
He took it on the day of his press conference to return to cricket so that he would look better in the press ocnference ..... that is what Warny said .... HE DID IT TO LOOK BETTER IN THE PRESS CONFERENCE ... Hence it was deliberate.
ScouseCat
21 Feb 2003, 10:17
Originally posted by Malibu#27
He took it on the day of his press conference to return to cricket so that he would look better in the press ocnference ..... that is what Warny said .... HE DID IT TO LOOK BETTER IN THE PRESS CONFERENCE ... Hence it was deliberate.
And how exactly is that performance enhancing??
If he gets away with less then 12 months, he'll have pulled off the greatest spin job since the Mike Gatting ball.
red+black
21 Feb 2003, 10:33
Originally posted by ScouseCat
And how exactly is that performance enhancing??
a drug, or "method" need not be performance enhancing to be on the banned list. that's a pointless argument "oh it wasn't performance enhancing". so what. i concur with everything d i c k pound said.
but to be honest, i just hope he doesn't play in this world cup. he'll weaken the team. but i'll have him for the windies tour.
Malibu#27
21 Feb 2003, 10:34
Originally posted by ScouseCat
And how exactly is that performance enhancing??
It doesn't matter ....... He deliberately took a banned substance - whether he did it to mask anything is irrelevant becasue the rules that he cannot take the moduretic.
I hope he gets off - but I just cant see how they can pull the right strings to allow it to happen.
tiger of old
21 Feb 2003, 10:38
Originally posted by suzi_olsen
He didn't take it deliberately that's where you're wrong.
I do trust warnie unlike you who is turning your back on him. ahhhhhhhhh yes his mom said open wide son trust me im your mother:rolleyes:
They should give him the hamburger with the lot.
He did the wrong thing, and even though his arguement will be stupidity he needs to be made an example of.
All of the contrition he is showing is just that, a show. All of the stuff with him being the family man (ie taking the kids to school etc) is just a sham, and I reckon he deserves 2 years just on the basis that he has dragged his kids into this whole saga.
Remember, Australia always is the first to condemn drug cheats from any other country.
Finally, is it a mere coincidence that he made a miracle recovery from a serious injury, just the sort of miracle recovery that anabolic steriods make possible?
Originally posted by rabs68
Remember, Australia always is the first to condemn drug cheats from any other country.
I have had it to the eye teeth with this argument. Australia has always condemned other nations who induilged in regimented drug programs to enhance the performances of its athletes. When was the last time Australia went gunning for an individual who may or may not have taken a banned substance accidentally?
Rightly so, Australia will always have a strong view on drugs in sport, but as Australians we also realise there are varying degrees of guilt when it comes to drugs. We also believe in the fact that people are human, and they can make mistakes.
Russia and China force feeding their athletes a steady diet of performance enhancing steroids is a lot more serious than Samantha Reilly taking a headache tablet.
I actually believe Warnie made a mistake and should be penalised accordingly. If he is found to be lying then by all means throw the book at him, but let's just try and be a little more understanding about all of this.
Just because he is an elite athlete, just because he earns wads of money, just because he is a public figure, does not mean he is any less human than any of us. We make mistakes all the time, it's part of being human. I wouldn't mind betting that Shane Warne has possibly made far less mistakes than any of the people who are looking to hang to guy. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Warne did the wrong thing, and deserves to be punished, simple as that.
The things he has been caught doing in the past (phone calls, bookie scandal, Joe the Camera man etc) are only what he has been caught doing!! He did the phone thing with a friend of mine about 5 years ago (his wife was pregnant at the time), and the girl in question thought it was amusing that this so called god of sport was trying to crack onto her.
Hopefully the result from his drug thing will be payback for all of the dud things he has done in the past.
Originally posted by Becker
I have had it to the eye teeth with this argument. Australia has always condemned other nations who induilged in regimented drug programs to enhance the performances of its athletes. When was the last time Australia went gunning for an individual who may or may not have taken a banned substance accidentally?
Any time an international athlete has tested positive and claimed to have had a drink spiked, or something must have been in one of the 20 supplements they put down their throat, you'll usually seen some part of the Australian media or public ready to throw the book at them. Maybe they did have their drink spiked, or maybe it was accidental. We don't (as a community) tend to give them the benefit of the doubt - unless they are Australian.
Originally posted by Becker
I actually believe Warnie made a mistake and should be penalised accordingly. If he is found to be lying then by all means throw the book at him, but let's just try and be a little more understanding about all of this.
He made a mistake alright - he opened his mouth and put a banned substance in to it. Whether he did it once or 20 times is irrelevant. Whether he did it to look pretty or for a sinister reason is irrelevant. Whether he knew it was banned or not is irrelevant.
He should have known it was banned, and therefore he must face the consequences.
A good analogy is getting pinged for speeding - as a driver, your responsibility is to be aware what the speed limit is, and what speed you are doing. The fact that you didn't bother to read the speed limit sign, or only did it once, doesn't excuse you from a speeding ticket.
Yeah, but if your mum gave you permission to speed, what then? :p
Originally posted by marvin
A good analogy is getting pinged for speeding - as a driver, your responsibility is to be aware what the speed limit is, and what speed you are doing. The fact that you didn't bother to read the speed limit sign, or only did it once, doesn't excuse you from a speeding ticket.
This is my point entirely. We all mistakes ever day that contravene the laws of the land. Am I to assume you are so righteous as to walk in and pay a fine each time you find yourself speeding? I bet not, you would just thank the stars you weren't caught and do it again next time.
Speeding should be far less acceptable to the community than an athlete taking a diet tablet, but sadly it isn't.
ScouseCat
21 Feb 2003, 12:33
Originally posted by Becker
Just because he is an elite athlete, just because he earns wads of money, just because he is a public figure, does not mean he is any less human than any of us. We make mistakes all the time, it's part of being human. I wouldn't mind betting that Shane Warne has possibly made far less mistakes than any of the people who are looking to hang to guy. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I couldn't have expressed it better myself... well said Becker.
ScouseCat
21 Feb 2003, 12:38
Originally posted by Becker
Speeding should be far less acceptable to the community than an athlete taking a diet tablet, but sadly it isn't.
I wonder why it isnt?? I mean, speeding not only puts yourself at risk but puts other innocent people at risk as well. That alone should put it above anything else but like you said, sadly it's not the case.
Originally posted by Becker
This is my point entirely. We all mistakes ever day that contravene the laws of the land. Am I to assume you are so righteous as to walk in and pay a fine each time you find yourself speeding? I bet not, you would just thank the stars you weren't caught and do it again next time.
Speeding should be far less acceptable to the community than an athlete taking a diet tablet, but sadly it isn't.
Your argument is a straw man. Warne did not say "whoops - it looks like I've just swallowed a banned substance - better go and dob myself in". He took a banned substance, and got caught.
From the ASDA website (http://www.asda.org.au/CheckStatusMed.html#How to check the status of medications and substances):
What is inadvertent doping?
Inadvertent doping occurs when an athlete takes a medication to treat an injury or illness without realising that it contains a prohibited substance.
Athletes are subject to anti-doping policies that enforce the principle of strict liability – athletes are responsible for any banned substances found in their body.
Athletes are responsible for checking the status of all substances and medications they consume. Ignorance is no excuse!
I'm not an international athlete. I don't get drug tested. However, I have been in a job where I drug and alcohol tests were mandatory, so I made damn sure I found out what I could and couldn't do and complied. It's common sense.
Adrian Shelton
21 Feb 2003, 13:13
Wonder who McGills 200th test wicket will be?
Originally posted by Becker
I have had it to the eye teeth with this argument. Australia has always condemned other nations who induilged in regimented drug programs to enhance the performances of its athletes. When was the last time Australia went gunning for an individual who may or may not have taken a banned substance accidentally?
Michelle Smith, Linford Christie, FloJo, Gary Hall (??) Jr, Marion Jones ex, I am sure there are plenty more.
Rightly so, Australia will always have a strong view on drugs in sport, but as Australians we also realise there are varying degrees of guilt when it comes to drugs. We also believe in the fact that people are human, and they can make mistakes.
It has not yet been establish that it was a mistake. Plenty of circumstantial evidence exists that it was not.
Russia and China force feeding their athletes a steady diet of performance enhancing steroids is a lot more serious than Samantha Reilly taking a headache tablet.
Any athlete getting caught taking a masking agent is extremely serious as it is the easiest way to disguise the fact that you may have been on a steady diet of steroids.
I actually believe Warnie made a mistake and should be penalised accordingly. If he is found to be lying then by all means throw the book at him, but let's just try and be a little more understanding about all of this.
I believe he is lying about the circumstances behind the positive test. Why he is lying, I can only speculate, but his dramatic weight loss, quick recovery from injury and his general track record re telling the truth give me strong suspicions. In the end it is irrelevent, he would have been to countless sessions explaining why he shouldn't make the mistake, and punishing everyone is the only way to ensure that any athlete that uses diuretics to mask steroids doesn't get away with it.
Just because he is an elite athlete, just because he earns wads of money, just because he is a public figure, does not mean he is any less human than any of us. We make mistakes all the time, it's part of being human. I wouldn't mind betting that Shane Warne has possibly made far less mistakes than any of the people who are looking to hang to guy. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
No-one is looking to hang the guy, I am sure he will survive quite well even if he never plays another game of cricket in his life. I think most (well maybe some) Australians are sick to the back teeth of the constant stream of mistakes, and spiking of drinks, and headaches that seem to come from every athlete stupid enough to get caught.
Moomba
Originally posted by ScouseCat
And how exactly is that performance enhancing??
And how exactly is that relevant to whether or not he deliberately took the tablet?
Moomba
Originally posted by marvin
A good analogy is getting pinged for speeding - as a driver, your responsibility is to be aware what the speed limit is, and what speed you are doing. The fact that you didn't bother to read the speed limit sign, or only did it once, doesn't excuse you from a speeding ticket.
Another analogy we can use in this case is the driver who gets done for refusing to blow into the breathalyser. That act in itself does not pose a danger to the public, but the fact that there are adequate penalties for refusal means that no drunk driver can use that as a loophole to get off a DUI charge.
Moomba
goal_umpire
21 Feb 2003, 15:19
Warnie doesn't need all this negative stuff said about him. What he needs at the moment is his fans to stick up for him and support him. I know for a fact that all the Australian Cricket Team and the ACB are all supportive of Warnie. Why aren't you guys supportive?
Originally posted by suzi_olsen
Warnie doesn't need all this negative stuff said about him. What he needs at the moment is his fans to stick up for him and support him. I know for a fact that all the Australian Cricket Team and the ACB are all supportive of Warnie. Why aren't you guys supportive?
No point going on an opinion board if you are not prepared to discuss your true opinions. Leave the spin to the media.
Moomba
Kane McGoodwin
21 Feb 2003, 16:07
The decision will be handed down 11am EST with the hearing adjoured. 2 witnessed called by Warne & 5 by the ACB.
Originally posted by suzi_olsen
Warnie doesn't need all this negative stuff said about him. What he needs at the moment is his fans to stick up for him and support him. I know for a fact that all the Australian Cricket Team and the ACB are all supportive of Warnie. Why aren't you guys supportive? Maybe none of his fans post on the boards.
What if warnie gets found guilty will he appeal?
Emile Hesky
21 Feb 2003, 16:17
Originally posted by nicko18
warne took the tablet deliberately. the age did not get it wrong. it would help if you understood the issues before you commented on them.
oh, HE said he only took one tablet. that must be right.
i spose warne was right when he said he had absolutely nothing to do with indian bookmakers? i spose he was telling the truth when he denied ever calling a british nurse on a mobile phone? i spose he is telling the truth when he blames joe the cameraman??
tear strips off him if it pleases you.
just remember he is one of the greatest bolwers who has ever taken the field, and has played his heart out for Australia. his just a kid from the suburbs who hit fame and has struggled to cope with it. everyone makes mistakes....you wanna hang him? be my guest.
He has achieved more than you probably ever will.
GhostofJimJess
21 Feb 2003, 16:28
Originally posted by suzi_olsen
Warnie doesn't need all this negative stuff said about him. What he needs at the moment is his fans to stick up for him and support him.
Same could be said for Robert Mugabe really ....
Emile Hesky
21 Feb 2003, 16:32
Originally posted by moomba
Another analogy we can use in this case is the driver who gets done for refusing to blow into the breathalyser. That act in itself does not pose a danger to the public, but the fact that there are adequate penalties for refusal means that no drunk driver can use that as a loophole to get off a DUI charge.
Moomba
yes. ignorance is not legitimate defence in the court of law.
Warne made a stupid mistake, should he be punished? I don't know all the facts so I will reserve my judgement.
I think the issue really boils down to this.
For a crime to be committed there needs to be a guilty mind and a guilty act. If warne can prove that he had no intention to take an illegal substance he might be able to get off.
However there are acts that are known as "Strict liability" crimes. Guilty mind does not need to be proved to have been found to have committed a strict liability crime. Offences such as parking violations, traffic offences etc
Should taking drugs be of a strict liability nature? or does intention play a role? I'm not sure....but if the latter path is taken, Warne will be back in South Africa in a couple of days.
If intention is taken into account I believe that the onus of proof must lie with the accused.
Note: This case is not being heard in the court of law and thus might not hold much relevance to the decision-makers.
Warne, gone for 2 years.
You heard it here first.
Originally posted by Becker
Just because he is an elite athlete, just because he earns wads of money, just because he is a public figure, does not mean he is any less human than any of us. We make mistakes all the time, it's part of being human. I wouldn't mind betting that Shane Warne has possibly made far less mistakes than any of the people who are looking to hang to guy. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I disagree.
As an electrician, I know not to touch the red wire.
Mechanics know not to put cold water into an overheated motor.
Computer Techs know that hitting it wont make it work.
Barmen know that selling to underagers is a no-no.
Perverts know they cant touch strippers.
Essendon supporters know they have "special rights" with the umpires.
World class athletes know not to take drugs that they havn't thoroughly checked out first.
Emile Hesky
21 Feb 2003, 19:20
Originally posted by Bakes
I disagree.
As an electrician, I know not to touch the red wire.
Mechanics know not to put cold water into an overheated motor.
Computer Techs know that hitting it wont make it work.
Barmen know that selling to underagers is a no-no.
Perverts know they cant touch strippers.
Essendon supporters know they have "special rights" with the umpires.
World class athletes know not to take drugs that they havn't thoroughly checked out first.
Never made a mistake?
GhostofJimJess
21 Feb 2003, 20:54
Originally posted by Bakes
I disagree.
As an electrician, I know not to touch the red wire.
Mechanics know not to put cold water into an overheated motor.
Computer Techs know that hitting it wont make it work.
Barmen know that selling to underagers is a no-no.
Perverts know they cant touch strippers.
Essendon supporters know they have "special rights" with the umpires.
World class athletes know not to take drugs that they havn't thoroughly checked out first.
Whaddya mean we can't touch strippers !!!
evfenton78
21 Feb 2003, 21:15
Why does everyone wants to see Warne go down.
The alternative is Stuart MacGill. He is such aperfect angel. Alot less talented one too.
Adrian Shelton
21 Feb 2003, 21:28
I reckon we need Magilla and Slats back in to Jaw with those mouthy Windians and tell batsmen who dont walk too **** right off you ****in***weak cheating *****!!!!
seriously Warney might a bit of a holiday, but less than the 2, Unless the sentencing is done by Scott Muller(ha ha!!)
Booze Hound
21 Feb 2003, 23:59
It's not a question of wanting to see anyone 'go down' but mant athlete's in many sports have had a two year ban after similar things have happened.
1. The simple facts are the substance was in his body - that alone should produce a two year ban. and
2. He admitted taking the pills.
Whatever reason he took them for is immaterial, he took them. Ignorance of the contents or effect is irrelevant - and his 'excuse' is much weaker than many who have received bans.
Originally posted by Emile Hesky
Never made a mistake?
Re-read my previoius post sparky. It is a mistake, but it is something he knew he shouldn't do, just like the other points I posted. He screwed up now he must pay the price. Two years is light, he go off easy.
Originally posted by GhostofJimJess
Whaddya mean we can't touch strippers !!!
Ooooh, you can touch them (if you want), but the ultimate price is five minutes with a bouncer.
If you compare penalties, Mr Warne got 30 seconds
dr nick
22 Feb 2003, 08:56
Originally posted by Emile Hesky
tear strips off him if it pleases you.
just remember he is one of the greatest bolwers who has ever taken the field, and has played his heart out for Australia. his just a kid from the suburbs who hit fame and has struggled to cope with it. everyone makes mistakes....you wanna hang him? be my guest.
He has achieved more than you probably ever will.
by that reckoning you think every elite athlete is above the rules and shielded from critisism just because journalists/joe public hasnt achieved as much?
i'll bet you were pleased when OJ simpson got off because the jury had no right to critisise him. he'd achieved a lot more than they ever would.
i know he is the greatest spin bowler we've ever had. do you think he should get any less punishment because of that?
of course he's the perfect family man who gives his son a piggy back ride to school. we all know that because he hires his own PR company and sells these pictures to the media to let us all know what a nice guy he really is.
dr nick
22 Feb 2003, 09:00
the verdict revealed on Sky News 11:30am AEST
Emile Hesky
22 Feb 2003, 10:21
Originally posted by nicko18
by that reckoning you think every elite athlete is above the rules and shielded from critisism just because journalists/joe public hasnt achieved as much?
i'll bet you were pleased when OJ simpson got off because the jury had no right to critisise him. he'd achieved a lot more than they ever would.
i know he is the greatest spin bowler we've ever had. do you think he should get any less punishment because of that?
The jury were privy to all the evidence. Can you say the same?
I didnt realise Shane warne was being charged with murder. :rolleyes:
Jim Boy
22 Feb 2003, 15:53
Originally posted by Bakes
Computer Techs know that hitting it wont make it work.
You'd be surprised at how untrue that statement can be. Have fixed many a box with the odd hit and the odd kick.