Team V Carlton

[Ricky]

ESSENDON
B: Henry Slattery, Tayte Pears, Dustin Fletcher
HB: Courtenay Dempsey, Cale Hooker, Heath Hocking
C: Kyle Reimers, Ricky Dyson, Brent Prismall
HF: Angus Monfries, Scott Lucas, Jason Winderlich
F; Andrew Welsh, Matthew Lloyd, Alwyn Davey
Foll: Patrick Ryder, Jobe Watson, Brent Stanton
Int: Sam Lonergan, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Andrew Lovett, Hayden Skipworth, ,
Emg: Bachar Houli, Michael Hurley, David Zaharakis

In: Slattery, Lovett-Murray
Out: McVeigh-suspended, McPhee-calf

[AndyLesPaul]

Good to see prismall in the side still.
Here's the Carlton side
Carlton
B: Paul Bower, Michael Jamison, Aaron Joseph
HB: Dennis Armfield, Bret Thornton, Steven Browne
C: Kade Simpson, Chris Judd, Heath Scotland
HF: Ryan Houlihan, Jordan Bannister, Nick Stevens
F: Eddie Betts, Brendan Fevola, Setanta O’hAilpin
Foll: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs
I/C: Mark Austin, Andrew Carrazzo, Shaun Grigg, Shaun Hampson
Emg: Brad Fisher, Jeff Garlett, Jordan Russell

In: Thornton
Out: Jeff Garlett

NLM and Slattery are very welcome inclusions imo.

[FrankGrimes]

ESSENDON
B: Henry Slattery, Tayte Pears, Dustin Fletcher
HB: Courtenay Dempsey, Cale Hooker, Heath Hocking
C: Kyle Reimers, Ricky Dyson, Brent Prismall
HF: Angus Monfries, Scott Lucas, Jason Winderlich
F; Andrew Welsh, Matthew Lloyd, Alwyn Davey
Foll: Patrick Ryder, Jobe Watson, Brent Stanton
Int: Sam Lonergan, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Andrew Lovett, Hayden Skipworth, ,
Emg: Bachar Houli, Michael Hurley, David Zaharakis

In: Slattery, Lovett-Murray
Out: McVeigh-suspended, McPhee-calf

no houli?? wasn't he a late withdrawal last week....?

[cesc]

Good to see prismall in the side still.
Here's the Carlton side
Carlton
B: Paul Bower, Michael Jamison, Aaron Joseph
HB: Dennis Armfield, Bret Thornton, Steven Browne
C: Kade Simpson, Chris Judd, Heath Scotland
HF: Ryan Houlihan, Jordan Bannister, Nick Stevens
F: Eddie Betts, Brendan Fevola, Setanta O’hAilpin
Foll: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs
I/C: Mark Austin, Andrew Carrazzo, Shaun Grigg, Shaun Hampson
Emg: Brad Fisher, Jeff Garlett, Jordan Russell

In: Thornton
Out: Jeff Garlett

NLM and Slattery are very welcome inclusions imo.

McPhee and Mcveigh are welcome exclusions also

[AndyLesPaul]

no houli?? wasn't he a late withdrawal last week....?
nope, he was out with an illness when the teams were announced

[AndyLesPaul]

McPhee and Mcveigh are welcome exclusions also
true that. (for you guys)
I'm trying to be optimistic here :thumbsu:

[bombersno1]

Pissed that Hurley did not come in for McPhee but I do understand the logic. We should flog Carlton if we play our best. Who will tagg Judd? Could Reimers go with him?

[SirJimi05]

WElsh to make Judd his bitch....again.:cool:

[fishguts]

I would much rather Nat-Rat then McPhee. Stupid by Mcveigh however.

[Spikey]

Oh goodie, Thornton's back for us :D

[bombers2011]

Pissed that Hurley did not come in for McPhee but I do understand the logic. We should flog Carlton if we play our best. Who will tagg Judd? Could Reimers go with him?

I did enjoy Judd's Reimering last year, and I am sure he would be up for it on a personal level, though i think playing on the G and to knighta's game plan should mean that we need Reimers to inject that dash and panache into our offensive thang. I think it will be more than likely be Welsh and Hocking rotating and working away at that broken nose of his.

[AndyLesPaul]

I would much rather Nat-Rat then McPhee. Stupid by Mcveigh however.
depends,
In Defence McPhee > NLM
In the Forward line, I wouldn't mind either of them.

[fishguts]

depends,
In Defence McPhee > NLM
In the Forward line, I wouldn't mind either of them.

Wouldn't just back my case? :p

[bombers2011]

I would much rather Nat-Rat then McPhee. Stupid by Mcveigh however.

Yes, that McVeigh out still burns... McPhee has been very solid of recent weeks.
There has been alot of talk about NatRat's mongrel and with McVeigh out we need a dash of that, so bring it in Lova Muzza! Oh, and I also 2nd that request to keep him in the forward line, too many skill errors and bad decisions down back, though seeing as they are playing 3 tall forwards and Hooker will be rotating into the ruck, it's inevitable that he will be down back a bit. Fingers Crossed he is on song...

[fishguts]

Wouldn't mind seeing Winder moved onto the ball


He will.

[AndyLesPaul]

Wouldn't just back my case? :p
Well it depends where McPhee would have played.
but yeah as i've said earlier, I very much like NLM's inclusion.

[The_Young_Gun]

Like the NLM inclusion. He's better running out back than McPhee, has better kicking too..

Slattery coming back is a small boost as well.

[fishguts]

I thought he has been alright this year, Slattery.

Very under-rated thus far.

[B-Bomber]

It's good that our injury list is such that we are replacing solid players (of recent weeks) with other solid players rather then going for a Nash, Atkinson or a debutant.

[ShowMeTheMonfrie]

Wouldn't mind seeing Winder moved onto the ball

agree. he is the key i feel. extremely underrated and so rarely mentioned by the public but a great player for us. a game winner

[Godzke]

Love the NLM inclusion ... none of you pricks give him enough credit! :p

[NoIdea]

There has been alot of talk about NatRat's mongrel and with McVeigh out we need a dash of that, so bring it in Lova Muzza!

It's a shame that he doesn't channel that "mongrel" into something useful - like hard attacks on the ball instead of stupid cheap shots that cost the team.

Like the NLM inclusion. He's better running out back than McPhee, has better kicking too..

It's one thing to run out of the back line - it's another to do it without consistently turning the ball over or missing targets.

Lovett-Murray is a liability, pure and simple. He lacks the brain space to make correct decisions under pressure, his kicking is dubious and his indiscretions are too frequent. I can't understand why they would bring him in instead of Houli (who also has some faults, but hasn't had the same faults for a number of years).

If Muppet-Murray HAS to be in the side, put him in the forward line - that way when his kicks inevitably go astray, at least there's a chance they'll go through the sticks, not into the opposition's arms.

[fishguts]

It's a shame that he doesn't channel that "mongrel" into something useful - like hard attacks on the ball instead of stupid cheap shots that cost the team.



It's one thing to run out of the back line - it's another to do it without consistently turning the ball over or missing targets.

Lovett-Murray is a liability, pure and simple. He lacks the brain space to make correct decisions under pressure, his kicking is dubious and his indiscretions are too frequent. I can't understand why they would bring him in instead of Houli (who also has some faults, but hasn't had the same faults for a number of years).

If Muppet-Murray HAS to be in the side, put him in the forward line - that way when his kicks inevitably go astray, at least there's a chance they'll go through the sticks, not into the opposition's arms.

How much footy have you watched this year? I would say stop & prop Mcphee is more of a liability than NatRat. He has been consistently good whilst in and has been hitting targets. But why argue about it, I'll leave it to NatRat to prove you wrong tomorrow.

[NoIdea]

How much footy have you watched this year?

Answer - all of it. It doesn't change my opinion. He gets the ball but coughs it up. People seem to wear the same rose coloured glasses watching him as they do Stanton. The two of them are the clanger kings of Windy Hill.

I agree that McPhee is a little borderline at times but his borderline-ness doesn't come with the blatant stupidity and selfishness of NLM.

Now that I've panned him he'll have a blinder with 100% effective disposals.

[GoDons]

Good to see prismall in the side still.
Here's the Carlton side
Carlton
B: Paul Bower, Michael Jamison, Aaron Joseph
HB: Dennis Armfield, Bret Thornton, Steven Browne
C: Kade Simpson, Chris Judd, Heath Scotland
HF: Ryan Houlihan, Jordan Bannister, Nick Stevens
F: Eddie Betts, Brendan Fevola, Setanta O’hAilpin
Foll: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs
I/C: Mark Austin, Andrew Carrazzo, Shaun Grigg, Shaun Hampson
Emg: Brad Fisher, Jeff Garlett, Jordan Russell

In: Thornton
Out: Jeff Garlett

NLM and Slattery are very welcome inclusions imo.

Looks strangely tall, especially in defence. Lloyd and Lucas are our lone big guys down there, who are Austin, Jamison, Bower and Thornton going to play on?

I assume Thornton or Bower will take a smaller bloke, but Lovett-Murray's the only guy they'd be at all suited to and I doubt will play down there all night. Austin will probably push forward, and that's an interesting ask of a guy that's kicked one goal in his career.

Then there's the issue of Setanta up forward, if that fails, where's he going to go? He can't really move to defence and Hampson and Kreuzer are picked to ruck, and are far superior options.

Pace wise, they look slow. They need Betts' goals, so he'll probably play fairly deep, and Armfield and Joseph will be in shut down roles. Chris Judd and Kade Simpson are probably the only guys with a bit of nip through the midfield.

The midfield is great, but outside of that, they're vulnerable.

[Boucks09]

Answer - all of it. It doesn't change my opinion. He gets the ball but coughs it up. People seem to wear the same rose coloured glasses watching him as they do Stanton. The two of them are the clanger kings of Windy Hill.

I agree that McPhee is a little borderline at times but his borderline-ness doesn't come with the blatant stupidity and selfishness of NLM.

Now that I've panned him he'll have a blinder with 100% effective disposals.

Check out the last minute of the ANZAC Day game and check out who kicks the ball to Zaharakis. Then listen carefully to the commentary to hear what they have to say after the yelling and screaming has stopped.

[bombers2011]

Check out the last minute of the ANZAC Day game and check out who kicks the ball to Zaharakis. Then listen carefully to the commentary to hear what they have to say after the yelling and screaming has stopped.

I have to agree, after watching that passage of play about 25 times, my opinion of Lovett-Murray changed. I have felt some different energy radiating from him this year. Jury's still out. I do agree, he does come across as a little selfish on-field.
Tomorrow night is a massive chance for him to carve a spot for himself in the 09 incarnation.

[eth-dog]

Answer - all of it. It doesn't change my opinion. He gets the ball but coughs it up. People seem to wear the same rose coloured glasses watching him as they do Stanton. The two of them are the clanger kings of Windy Hill.

I agree that McPhee is a little borderline at times but his borderline-ness doesn't come with the blatant stupidity and selfishness of NLM.

Now that I've panned him he'll have a blinder with 100% effective disposals.
well you are an idiot, because NLM has been very good for us this year. It amazes me how usernames can sum up the guy who uses them

[Boucks09]

I have to agree, after watching that passage of play about 25 times, my opinion of Lovett-Murray changed. I have felt some different energy radiating from him this year. Jury's still out. I do agree, he does come across as a little selfish on-field.
Tomorrow night is a massive chance for him to carve a spot for himself in the 09 incarnation.

That's simply not good enough. You should be upto at least 100 views by now :D

I think he is a misunderstood player in our side. I didn't think there was a spot for him about 7 weeks ago, but after reading some stuff that hateitlovett posted i watched his games more closely and he brings more to the side than simply stats.

It is just disappointing that he got the 3 week suspension as in reality there wasn't a hell of a lot in it and he was playing good football.

I think with him in the side it helps out Dempsey as they seem to play like men possessed together in the back half. He is the senior indigenous player on our list and does a lot of great work off the field and around the club.

[HULK HOGAN]

I have a felling Fisher might play for them kicked 6 last week?

[Mad Bomber Sean]

It's a shame that he doesn't channel that "mongrel" into something useful - like hard attacks on the ball instead of stupid cheap shots that cost the team.



It's one thing to run out of the back line - it's another to do it without consistently turning the ball over or missing targets.

Lovett-Murray is a liability, pure and simple. He lacks the brain space to make correct decisions under pressure, his kicking is dubious and his indiscretions are too frequent. I can't understand why they would bring him in instead of Houli (who also has some faults, but hasn't had the same faults for a number of years).

If Muppet-Murray HAS to be in the side, put him in the forward line - that way when his kicks inevitably go astray, at least there's a chance they'll go through the sticks, not into the opposition's arms.

You certainly have NoIdea with that comment...

NLM is not as good as Mcphee, but he gives the team so much.

Either you're lying about watching all his games this year or you're blind.

How could you say he is a Muppet after his poise, skill and aggression helped to swing the momentum in the 2nd Qrt V Hawks- he played very well against the Pies and Tigers as well. This year he has stepped up another gear. So important in such a young team. His tough uncompramising appraoch makes the whole team walk taller.

I wonder if you have the brain space to comprehend his role in the team?

[Skeeta Olly]

I have a felling Fisher might play for them kicked 6 last week?

Replace Thornton maybe...

[Jono B]

I don't see the problem with replacing McPhee with NLM. They are both mid-sized players, McPhee plays a bit taller while NLM gives more drive. The both have issues in their disposal/decision making.

Given NLM is ready to go this change should have little affect on our team.

[NoIdea]

I wonder if you have the brain space to comprehend his role in the team?

What exactly is his role - you seem to know the intimate inside machinations of the EFC, so please, share your Einstein like knowledge with me. I would have thought that his role would be as an attacking, penetrating runner off the back line, to break lines and drill the ball long to our tall forwards. If you actually read what I write you will see that my issue is with the quality of his decision making & disposal. I would have thought that these were two fairly crucial aspects of someone in that position's game.

Then listen carefully to the commentary to hear what they have to say after the yelling and screaming has stopped. I try not to listen to the free to air commentators at all, lest my ears are polluted by Robert Walls.

well you are an idiot, because NLM has been very good for us this year. It amazes me how usernames can sum up the guy who uses them Yeth, you are thertainly thpot on - uthernames can thay a lot about thomeone.

I have just had a look through the stats for the 5 games that NLM & McPhee have both played this year and I must admit I was surprised at the number of contested balls NLM wins. I will keep a closer eye on it tomorrow night. The stats that I was on about show that McPhee averages 4.5 CP (NLM = 6.4), 92.6% effective disposal (NLM = 78.6) and 1 clanger (NLM = 2.2) per game. So, depending on whether you look at a player's value in terms of how much they get the ball or how effectively they use it you can go either way with these two.

P.S. eth-dog - don't be such a tool. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - just because it's not what you think doesn't mean it has no merit.

Don't bother flaming me for my reply - the sad thing about this forum is that apparently the sun shines out of every player's orifice, so anyone who dares speak a word against a player is ignorant, an idiot or has no idea. Take a step back people and have a long hard look.

[Wahooti Fandango]

NLM. :thumbsu: NLM and Reimers to tag team against all comers.

[eth-dog]

Yeth, you are thertainly thpot on - uthernames can thay a lot about thomeone.

I have just had a look through the stats for the 5 games that NLM & McPhee have both played this year and I must admit I was surprised at the number of contested balls NLM wins. I will keep a closer eye on it tomorrow night. The stats that I was on about show that McPhee averages 4.5 CP (NLM = 6.4), 92.6% effective disposal (NLM = 78.6) and 1 clanger (NLM = 2.2) per game. So, depending on whether you look at a player's value in terms of how much they get the ball or how effectively they use it you can go either way with these two.

P.S. eth-dog - don't be such a tool. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - just because it's not what you think doesn't mean it has no merit.

Don't bother flaming me for my reply - the sad thing about this forum is that apparently the sun shines out of every player's orifice, so anyone who dares speak a word against a player is ignorant, an idiot or has no idea. Take a step back people and have a long hard look.
you're right, I disagree with your opinion. Stats don't tell all the story, just look at Slattery for example, he doesn't get that many touches per game but he doesn't get dropped each week- so he does his job obviously, if NLM doesn't get dropped he obviously does his job. that's my theory- and don't mock me, compared to you I'm a veteran of BF so just watch it.

[dapto]

Yeth, you are thertainly thpot on - uthernames can thay a lot about thomeone.

Lovedethit:D:D

The pun was there, NFI re NLM, and re. usernames you scored on that front.

But the fact remains that both Mcphee and NLM would be handy in the side this week, form certainly warrants it to date. It is just that other circumstances have precluded their inclusion.

What is this debate really about? It seems too many posters have to assemble to challenge past board assessments which were always a little vainly thrown around.

NLM and Mcphee have both been terrific servants for the club for a long time and bring important dimensions and flexibilty oppostions clubs find difficult to negate.

[You Gotta Lovett!]

Come-on fellow Bombers...too much hostility!
We're supposed to be united, the boy's need us!!!!

McPhee is obviously out with that calf complaint that saw him miss the 1st qtr of last weeks game...perhaps the adrenaline got him through the game and it flared back up afterwards. He has been really solid for mine this year so hope for a quick recovery!

As for NLM.....He was the 1 player I had a question mark over pre-season on whether or not he would play much this season if we had agood run with injuries and even though we have got most of our players back I am welcoming him into this team. It's been noted that his aggression is a huge asset to have in this young team, it lifts the young boy's to see that they have teammates who will not let their young side be a push-over.
Also, his form has been(to my suprise) extremely solid. Kicking goals against the Hawks, taking Speccies on the Tiges, setting up the winning goal on Anzac Day....and his brilliant run off the backline!!!!

I'm pumped he's in.......let's hope he smashes the Blues around a bit!

Let's go Bomber's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bombers2011]

That's simply not good enough. You should be upto at least 100 views by now :D

I think he is a misunderstood player in our side. I didn't think there was a spot for him about 7 weeks ago, but after reading some stuff that hateitlovett posted i watched his games more closely and he brings more to the side than simply stats.

It is just disappointing that he got the 3 week suspension as in reality there wasn't a hell of a lot in it and he was playing good football.

I think with him in the side it helps out Dempsey as they seem to play like men possessed together in the back half. He is the senior indigenous player on our list and does a lot of great work off the field and around the club.

Whole-heartedly agree with everything you are saying here, do remember that hateitlovett post, since then I have really re-assessed my feelings.
I have to say in 08 the amount of times his clangers put us behind the 8 ball I couldn't count on 10 hands!
So, I have been much more in favour of his forward swings this season. He's always gonna kick goals as he invariably gonna get the 3rd or 4th defender.
Power to Natrat!

[Darealrath]

McVeigh out still frustrates me, but good to see NLM back. Big test for our midfield but if they do well I think we can do it, we look more even across the ground than they do.

[Bombertastic]

WElsh to make Judd his bitch....again.:cool:

I can't see him running with Judd after only 2 games back.

[Jonesy1987]

I can't see him running with Judd after only 2 games back.

First tackle in Welsh will drive Judd's beak straight into the turf, blood rule off for 3 quarters:D

[Jonesy1987]

I'm really disappointed Jetta can't get in the side, reminds me so much of Harbrow, the coach backed him in and is now reaping the rewards.

[SirJimi05]

I did enjoy Judd's Reimering last year, and I am sure he would be up for it on a personal level, though i think playing on the G and to knighta's game plan should mean that we need Reimers to inject that dash and panache into our offensive thang. I think it will be more than likely be Welsh and Hocking rotating and working away at that broken nose of his.

NatRat will be eyeing of a chance to give Judds nose a little test to see if it is all better. :D

[SirJimi05]

Answer - all of it. It doesn't change my opinion. He gets the ball but coughs it up. People seem to wear the same rose coloured glasses watching him as they do Stanton. The two of them are the clanger kings of Windy Hill.

I agree that McPhee is a little borderline at times but his borderline-ness doesn't come with the blatant stupidity and selfishness of NLM.

Now that I've panned him he'll have a blinder with 100% effective disposals.


Who is this NoIdea guy? I like the cut of his jive TBH.

Calls a spade a spade.

Pretty much agree with everything you have said although i do believe NatRat has been ok this season much to my great surprise.

[rainman06]

Who is this NoIdea guy? I like the cut of his jive TBH.

Calls a spade a spade.

Pretty much agree with everything you have said although i do believe NatRat has been ok this season much to my great surprise.

Why would you agree with a scumbag who clearly has no idea?

[ant555]

Don't bother flaming me for my reply - the sad thing about this forum is that apparently the sun shines out of every player's orifice, so anyone who dares speak a word against a player is ignorant, an idiot or has no idea. Take a step back people and have a long hard look.


Well i would say that it does not stop people from doing it. The problem you speak of happens with every supporters board.
I have spoken out against a lot of blokes on our list and have even gone as far as saying i dont see a flag in the next 5 years with our current side but i have not been labeled as ignorant or an idiot. Bbeen pegged as arrogent or a smart arse a few times though :D

There are plenty of people who have less than favourable views on players around here. Myers, Jetta, Stanton, Slattery, Dyson, Hocking etc have all had their critics at certain stages.

You will never remove the blinkered view of some supporters. Thats just the way it is. In no way is this board any worse than others that i have visited.

[ant555]

Why would you agree with a scumbag who clearly has no idea?

Whats so special about NLM ?
He is certainly one player that i do not think is part of our long term picture.
He gets the nod this week but if we are planing a future with him in it then i would be expecting a few more seasons in the bottom half.

[The_Young_Gun]

NLM is depth, quite a utility player... No harm in having him on our list.

IMO, he's still better than such players as Myers, Daniher.ect

But till our younger players start to develope, I'm happy with NLM in our side..

[SirJimi05]

Why would you agree with a scumbag who clearly has no idea?

Settle Grettle! I haven't noticed this guy post before and i agree with what he wrote in the post i replied to and the sentiment behind it.

What parts did you disagree with? Stanton gets named best player on our board because he gets 30 possesions yet he turns the ball over 10 times and makes critical errors. I was shocked a couple of games back when over 90% of people had him in the votes. He was terrible.

[kelvin_sheedy]

You gotta love the mentality of some on this forum.

Lets play kids with less form and ability over some guys that are more senior because they have some magical upside. You see we need 22 elite players to win a flag.

Pretty much the gist of this thread again.

And FWIW NLM has shown time and again that he belongs in our 22. When someone pushes him out then all fair and well but when guys like Myers and Quinn get games ahead of him then it's a disgrace.

[Skeeta Olly]

In fairness, Quinn and Myers haven't played again.

I do beleive you are correct, that people think someone should be play such as Houli over NLM because of their upside. It's as if we're picking a team to play Carlton next season the way people go on.

NLM has proven to be a good player this season. He's been training hard for 4-5 weeks to get back into the team, and no surprise, he's the first to be called up for McPhee.

[Trifon Ivanov]

hi everyone im new to the bigfootball so i like to say hi. my number one sport is ofcourse soccer but i love footy to and love essendon the most. And what a great time to join then against those carlton bastards. i hate them so much hahaha! i think we should punish them today because we are a lot quicker everywhere on the ground. i think the key for us is lovet because he always plays super well against those bloody bastards and i think he is ready to do it again tonight. Loyd and lucas are also back in form as our key strikers and i think they can kick 10 between them tonight because the calrotn defence is shit hahaha. we must not let judd get the ball a lot tonight and i think the man for stopping him is welsh or even mcveigh but he is not playing so maybe even watson. essendon should win by 25.

[SirJimi05]

You gotta love the mentality of some on this forum.

Lets play kids with less form and ability over some guys that are more senior because they have some magical upside. You see we need 22 elite players to win a flag.

Pretty much the gist of this thread again.

And FWIW NLM has shown time and again that he belongs in our 22. When someone pushes him out then all fair and well but when guys like Myers and Quinn get games ahead of him then it's a disgrace.


It's a balancing act Kelvin. The club is also building for a premiership so there will be times when youngsters get the nod over more experienced players. If clubs only gave young guys games on form 100% of the time they would be in a fair bit of strife moving forward.

[SirJimi05]

In fairness, Quinn and Myers haven't played again.

I do beleive you are correct, that people think someone should be play such as Houli over NLM because of their upside. It's as if we're picking a team to play Carlton next season the way people go on.

NLM has proven to be a good player this season. He's been training hard for 4-5 weeks to get back into the team, and no surprise, he's the first to be called up for McPhee.


Is that what it is? I thought most people would have been suggesting Houli solely on the form he has shown at senior level. He would have been a great match up for Betts.

NLM is a decent inclusion but there was nothing wrong with the suggestion of Houli coming in.

[Skeeta Olly]

I was getting at the idea that he's underdone.