View Full Version : Where are the fighters?
wavefall21
3 Jan 2010, 19:52
What has happened with our batting lineup? When we lose early wickets we have not had any1 in the middle order who has shown some rear guard action and fought hard to keep their wicket, We don't have any fighters or scrappers in our lineup anymore, aside from probably Katich who opens, this def isnt a batting lineup any opposition bowler would fear, it has no firepower whatsoever and lacks killer instinct
Our batting is the reason we have slipped in the rankings, not our bowling, it has been awfully inconsistent and these collapses are killing us, it seems to me Ponting, Hussey, Clarke and North just don't value their wickets enough, and changes need to be made, it clearly isn't the batting formula that will lift us back up the rankings I'm afraid
pretty harsh on hussey, i'd say he values his wicket pretty damn highly. got out to a poor shot today, but he hung in there for a while with little support.
guys like ponting and haddin though, they seem to be very intent on dominating the bowling attack when its not quite necessary.
Sunday Red
3 Jan 2010, 20:00
Clarke needs to go.
Pity he's been groomed as "the next big thing" since he could walk.
He ****ing shits me to tears.
danielnajdek
3 Jan 2010, 20:06
Get rid of North definitely and maybe Hussey as for Clarke well he needs to put his big drives away when the ball is moving around a bit. He leaves a massive gap between bat and pad which you could drive a truck through.He also doesn't seem to move his feet that well against the faster bowlers which is weird considering he's so good at using his feet against the spinners.
wavefall21
3 Jan 2010, 20:12
pretty harsh on hussey, i'd say he values his wicket pretty damn highly. got out to a poor shot today, but he hung in there for a while with little support.
guys like ponting and haddin though, they seem to be very intent on dominating the bowling attack when its not quite necessary.
Yeah your prob right on Huss, but unfortunately as you said he got out to a terrible shot and just isnt getting the job done and hasn't been for a very long time now, Haddin was a disappointing dismissal but at least he showed some intent and that's his natural game, he should not be going in at 5 down for 50
Ponting's dismissal on the other hand was absolutely pathetic and smacked of real arrogance and selfishness, it was one of the softest dismissals i've seen in a long time, and def not a result of good bowling but a result of very arrogant batting, I've lost patience with Punter, if wasn't captain I think he would be one of the first who should be dropped, he simply is not getting the job done
OzBomber
3 Jan 2010, 20:16
Get rid of North definitely and maybe Hussey as for Clarke well he needs to put his big drives away when the ball is moving around a bit. He leaves a massive gap between bat and pad which you could drive a truck through.He also doesn't seem to move his feet that well against the faster bowlers which is weird considering he's so good at using his feet against the spinners.
It's a bit harsh on Clarke considering every ball before that had swung away. That one cut back heaps so he was pretty unlucky.
Sylvia Saint
3 Jan 2010, 20:16
Agree with OP. It was our pitiful batting at Lords and the Oval in the 1st innings that cost us the Ashes, not MJ's bowling or any other factor.
You can forgive a batting lineup to falter once in a while, but the past 12 months it seems to be happening every other innings! :mad:
Since Jan 09 here are some sub-par totals that our current batting lineup have achieved:
207 (vs Sth Africa, JoBurg 2nd innings)
209 (vs Sth Africa, Cape Town 1st innings)
215 (vs England, Lords 1st innings)
263 (vs England, Birmingham 1st innings)
160 (vs England, The Oval 1st innings)
150 (vs West Indies, Perth 2nd innings)
8/225 (vs Pakistan, MCG 2nd innings)
127 (vs Pakistan, SCG 1st innings)
That's 8 poor scores out of 24 innings, so 1 in 3 involves a collapse of some description. A lot of the scores I've mentioned had the likes of Johnson, Hauritz and even Siddle saving face at the end of the innings.
We are too reliant on Katich and Watson to get us off to a good start. Both are quality players but they can't do it every time. Ponting is one of my favourite all-time players but he is a shadow of his former self. I guess that's what we're missing the most, the Ponting of old who could be counted on for a big score every time he went out to the centre. These days any score he makes over 50 is a bonus. :(
To be honest I'm not sure what can be done about it. Hopefully the Mitch Marsh's and Khawaja's of the cricketing world can step up sooner or later and be groomed for 10+ years in the Aussie middle order.
Cousin Jed
3 Jan 2010, 20:24
Good post S_S
danielnajdek
3 Jan 2010, 20:28
It's a bit harsh on Clarke considering every ball before that had swung away. That one cut back heaps so he was pretty unlucky.
Yeah I might sound harsh but I think its a accurate assessment on Clarke. I'm not saying drop him I just want him to realise sometimes that you need to put the big shots away and get the team out of a hole. Just plays too loosely around his off stump.
Yeah your prob right on Huss, but unfortunately as you said he got out to a terrible shot and just isnt getting the job done and hasn't been for a very long time now,
He made one mistake, was the pick of the batsmen today by a long way.
Haddin was a disappointing dismissal but at least he showed some intent and that's his natural game, he should not be going in at 5 down for 50
He also shouldnt be trying to hit length balls 5 minutes before the tea break. His dismissal was agricultural, the worst of the day. I thought Watson got a Jaffa, Hughes is a crab, Ponting was rushed, father time is catching up with him, Hussey made one mistake and was gone.
Clarke is not technically sound enough to combat any movement off the pitch, he leads with his hands which is great on flat tracks but the slightest hint of movement off the pitch he's so open he's bound to go.
North followed one which left him off the deck, another poor shot.
Ponting's dismissal on the other hand was absolutely pathetic and smacked of real arrogance and selfishness, it was one of the softest dismissals i've seen in a long time, and def not a result of good bowling but a result of very arrogant batting, I've lost patience with Punter, if wasn't captain I think he would be one of the first who should be dropped, he simply is not getting the job done
Well, you dont know much about the game, sure it looked bad but I dont think arrogance played a part, he was rushed by a good short ball, he's having a few demons with the short stuff and Sami was bowling the spell of his life.
The shot was neither here nor there, a result of slower reflexes which come with age and a hint of tepidness after Roach's brute of a ball.
He is still in our top 3 bats quite easily.
The point I would like to make is that the art of defense is all but forgotten nowadays amongst the throngs of 20/20 comps popping up all over the world, for a long time now flat track bullies have had it their way and the runs have been piled on.
I think it's pretty refreshing to see a side bowled over in a day for not many, maybe this will force coaches to hammer the basics against the moving ball again.
Proper head position, soft hands, a solid base and the art of leaving will come back in vogue.
Who knows, we might actually see some good test cricket. :thumbsu:
wavefall21
3 Jan 2010, 20:32
Agree with OP. It was our pitiful batting at Lords and the Oval in the 1st innings that cost us the Ashes, not MJ's bowling or any other factor.
You can forgive a batting lineup to falter once in a while, but the past 12 months it seems to be happening every other innings! :mad:
Since Jan 09 here are some sub-par totals that our current batting lineup have achieved:
207 (vs Sth Africa, JoBurg 2nd innings)
209 (vs Sth Africa, Cape Town 1st innings)
215 (vs England, Lords 1st innings)
263 (vs England, Birmingham 1st innings)
160 (vs England, The Oval 1st innings)
150 (vs West Indies, Perth 2nd innings)
8/225 (vs Pakistan, MCG 2nd innings)
127 (vs Pakistan, SCG 1st innings)
That's 8 poor scores out of 24 innings, so 1 in 3 involves a collapse of some description. A lot of the scores I've mentioned had the likes of Johnson, Hauritz and even Siddle saving face at the end of the innings.
We are too reliant on Katich and Watson to get us off to a good start. Both are quality players but they can't do it every time. Ponting is one of my favourite all-time players but he is a shadow of his former self. I guess that's what we're missing the most, the Ponting of old who could be counted on for a big score every time he went out to the centre. These days any score he makes over 50 is a bonus. :(
To be honest I'm not sure what can be done about it. Hopefully the Mitch Marsh's and Khawaja's of the cricketing world can step up sooner or later and be groomed for 10+ years in the Aussie middle order.
Couldn't agree more, it just seems to be happening every 2nd innings as a minimum, and it's not good enough, there's f%^& all consistency and the current crop are clearly not good enough to get back that coveted number 1 mantle, the middle orders of India, RSA, SL and even the Poms are far superior to ours imo
As you said the only thing we can hope for is for the likes of Mitch Marsh, Khawaja, Cosgrove etc to step up cos we are very thin in the batting stakes and it's a real concern
Our depth in bowling far outweighs the batting and unless something is done soon, I can see us languishing around number 4 or 5 in the world for some time yet
The most frustrating part of all this is that unfortuantely, the selectors don't see it the same way, they think the current crop of batsman are good enough to get us back up there, despite constant inconsistencies
davey_magik
3 Jan 2010, 20:32
Get rid of Hussey.
Clarke is fine, the guy averages close to 50 in Test cricket and is our best player.
Punter should retire after the Ashes next year, he is starting to lose it.
Blight von Torp
3 Jan 2010, 20:49
The batting display was even worse than it looks on paper. North was out twice. As was Hughes if the Pakistanis could catch.
The vast majority of our batsmen are simply not prepared to put their head down and grind out an innings if the situation demands it. It is too hard for them, they would rather play their shots than put a price on their wicket.
Now that's fine when the attacking mindset comes off (which once upon a time it used to regularly), but as has been pointed out in this thread there have been any number of recent occasions when it has resulted in low innings.
And it looks poor when it happens. Haddin looked like a complete clown today for instance, getting out how and when he did.
It wouldn't hurt for the Australian batting lineup to regain a bit of character and ticker to be honest.
Plugger35
3 Jan 2010, 20:52
Apart from Katich, Hussey is probably the only real fighter type batsman in the current top order but unfortunately he is probably past his best now and can't be relied on to play the fighting rearguard innings anymore.
Watson, Ponting, Clarke, North and Haddin are more aggressive strokemakers than fighters but, even so, they all could have played with a bit more discipline and fight today. Probably only Watson could really blame his dismissal completely on the wicket and good bowling.
wavefall21
3 Jan 2010, 21:06
He made one mistake, was the pick of the batsmen today by a long way.
He also shouldnt be trying to hit length balls 5 minutes before the tea break. His dismissal was agricultural, the worst of the day. I thought Watson got a Jaffa, Hughes is a crab, Ponting was rushed, father time is catching up with him, Hussey made one mistake and was gone.
Clarke is not technically sound enough to combat any movement off the pitch, he leads with his hands which is great on flat tracks but the slightest hint of movement off the pitch he's so open he's bound to go.
North followed one which left him off the deck, another poor shot.
Well, you dont know much about the game, sure it looked bad but I dont think arrogance played a part, he was rushed by a good short ball, he's having a few demons with the short stuff and Sami was bowling the spell of his life.
The shot was neither here nor there, a result of slower reflexes which come with age and a hint of tepidness after Roach's brute of a ball.
He is still in our top 3 bats quite easily.
The point I would like to make is that the art of defense is all but forgotten nowadays amongst the throngs of 20/20 comps popping up all over the world, for a long time now flat track bullies have had it their way and the runs have been piled on.
I think it's pretty refreshing to see a side bowled over in a day for not many, maybe this will force coaches to hammer the basics against the moving ball again.
Proper head position, soft hands, a solid base and the art of leaving will come back in vogue.
Who knows, we might actually see some good test cricket. :thumbsu:
Ah, I dont know anything about the game? I dont know what cricket you have been watching, but he clearly is not in our top 3 batsmen, watson katich and clarke (even though in a slump) have clearly been more consistent than punter over the last year
XFactor1979
3 Jan 2010, 21:43
ponting is the key
its become obvious he is the king piece on the chessboard
get him and get australia
nobody in modern cricket does it anymore, but glenn mcgrath used to make statements that he targetted the lynchpins of teams.
teams arent saying that in the press, but we all know ponting is the lynchpin, regardless of how good the rest of the team is
we all know how much kemar roach got off on seeing the back of ponting. and smashing his elbow too
Plugger35
3 Jan 2010, 21:56
ponting is the key
its become obvious he is the king piece on the chessboard
get him and get australia
nobody in modern cricket does it anymore, but glenn mcgrath used to make statements that he targetted the lynchpins of teams.
teams arent saying that in the press, but we all know ponting is the lynchpin, regardless of how good the rest of the team is
we all know how much kemar roach got off on seeing the back of ponting. and smashing his elbow too
The great West Indies teams of the 80's/early 90's used the same tactics. They always targeted the opposition captain and stepped it up a gear to try and remove them as quickly as possible. Their theory was if you chop off the head (the captain) then the body (the rest of the team) will quickly follow.
It's pretty obvious that opposition bowlers are putting specific plans in place to dismiss Ponting and reduce his effectiveness (ie. bowling short). In the past he was good enough to overcome these tactics but he is struggling more and more to deal with it.
The rest of our batsmen need to start picking up the slack, as Ponting can't be relied on to carry the batting like he once did. As it is though, when Ponting falls cheaply it seems to have a domino effect on the rest of our batting.
XFactor1979
3 Jan 2010, 22:09
The great West Indies teams of the 80's/early 90's used the same tactics. They always targeted the opposition captain and stepped it up a gear to try and remove them as quickly as possible. Their theory was if you chop off the head (the captain) then the body (the rest of the team) will quickly follow.
It's pretty obvious that opposition bowlers are putting specific plans in place to dismiss Ponting and reduce his effectiveness (ie. bowling short). In the past he was good enough to overcome these tactics but he is struggling more and more to deal with it.
The rest of our batsmen need to start picking up the slack, as Ponting can't be relied on to carry the batting like he once did. As it is though, when Ponting falls cheaply it seems to have a domino effect on the rest of our batting.
its odd to think because the australian team once didnt have a domino effect, it was an imposing batting lineup of hayden, ponting, clarke, gilchrist. seldom was there a calamitous collapse.
but since the ashes series the batting could be unlocked by getting through ponting. and its weird because theres hussey, north, katich and watson and haddin there
Plugger35
3 Jan 2010, 22:33
its odd to think because the australian team once didnt have a domino effect, it was an imposing batting lineup of hayden, ponting, clarke, gilchrist. seldom was there a calamitous collapse.
but since the ashes series the batting could be unlocked by getting through ponting. and its weird because theres hussey, north, katich and watson and haddin there
The main difference with our batting line up in the first half of the last decade was that we almost always got great starts from Hayden and Langer, which then made it easier for Ponting and the rest of the middle order to follow. Coming in at 1/150 or 2/200 odd is a lot easier than coming in at 3/30 when the ball is still new and the pitch is seaming around.
Having said that, the quality of our batting back then was a lot better too. Hayden, Langer, S. Waugh, M.Waugh, Martyn and Gilchrist were all better batsmen than their equivalents in our current line up, whilst Ponting was at his peak. We also had some pretty handy tailenders back then too, with the likes of Warne, Lee & Gillespie all capable of making handy runs down the order.
OzBomber
3 Jan 2010, 23:54
its odd to think because the australian team once didnt have a domino effect, it was an imposing batting lineup of hayden, ponting, clarke, gilchrist. seldom was there a calamitous collapse.
but since the ashes series the batting could be unlocked by getting through ponting. and its weird because theres hussey, north, katich and watson and haddin there
Thing is when we did have a collapse there would always be someone who would dig us out of it, whether it be the Waughs, Ponting, Gilchrist, whoever. Someone would save us from getting bowled out cheaply. Rarely did everyone fail.
Navyblues09
4 Jan 2010, 01:22
Our depth in bowling far outweighs the batting and unless something is done soon, I can see us languishing around number 4 or 5 in the world for some time yet
Thats interesting, I would have thought it was the other way around, but the trouble is it is very hard to get dropped as a batsman whilst bowlers get injured more often handing someone else a chance so there is a higher turnaround there
But Australia has plenty of top quality batsmen, the bowling though they really are lacking. McKay is next in line but was poor on debut then next is Geeves? Not sure there is much there. The batsmen though you have
White, Hussey, Rogers, Cosgrove, Voges, Klinger, Smith, Hughes, Bailey, Jaques all quality batsmen at different stages of development
Then others like Birt, Khawaja, McDonald, Marsh x 2, Henriques and others who could be anything
Cooldude
4 Jan 2010, 01:44
It disgusts me how our middle order just falls like nine pins whenever a pitch or the ball is doing something for a sustained period of time.
It happened back in 2005 Ashes, then it just continued happening for a while. These collapses lost us the Ashes.
We have lacked a good grinder to settle things down in the middle order for ages, which is probably one of the things we really lack in order to become no.1 again. We need someone like a Steve Waugh, who would've loved to have a go at those conditions.
Katich was also hugely missed yesterday, he would've been very handy yesterday.
Some of these middle order prima donnas like Clarke North and Haddin really need to wake the eff up and start earning their keep. They are just flat track bullies
Clarke's dug us out of the shit plenty of times but he's not in his best touch atm, plus the ball he got was a ripper.
Steve Waugh was the ultimate for conditions like these coming in at 3rd drop.
We can't really break up the opening combination of Katich and Watson right now, but Katich is the best player we've got to play that defensive type role down the order - must be a future option.
Our batting order is a mess!
I think Watson should stay at the top of the order with Katich, Watson is demonstrating Hayden like qualities at the top of the order. He intimidates!
Clarke must bat at 3, he has been exceptional over the last 2 years and is entering a period of his career where big hundreds are on the cards, North should bat at 4, he is never going to blaze a hundred and requires more time to play his natural game. Ponting at 5 where the pressure is off a little more and he can play with that aggressive intent. Hussey should be at 6, he bats well with the tail and is best when he is aggressive, batting at 6 will give him that freedom. Basically your top 4 needs to be the 4 blokes most likely to his hundreds.
Personally i think we are moving towards having a team with a couple of all rounders such is the quality of young all rounder coming through.
Wally Carter
4 Jan 2010, 07:35
Fighters
Katich
Ponting
Haddin
Johnson
Too many airy fairy cricketers in the team at the moment.
The batting line up is unbalanced and the bowling line up also needs a shakeup.
stickman11
4 Jan 2010, 07:46
Fighters
Katich
Ponting
Haddin
Johnson
Too many airy fairy cricketers in the team at the moment.
The batting line up is unbalanced and the bowling line up also needs a shakeup.
There is no evidence that suggest Clark is a no 3. I seriously doubt he could handle the pressure of the no 3 position. Most of his runs come when Punter or our top order fire. The last two innings for me show that when under pressure, he crumbles. Same with Hussey and North. It is all good when things are going well, if Punter fails, they fall in a heap.
There is nobody in this current team that could lay claim to doing the hard work when needed that Punter has shown in his test and oneday career.
For me, Clark has alot to say but little evidence of any real fight.
Plugger35
4 Jan 2010, 08:35
There is no evidence that suggest Clark is a no 3. I seriously doubt he could handle the pressure of the no 3 position. Most of his runs come when Punter or our top order fire. The last two innings for me show that when under pressure, he crumbles. Same with Hussey and North. It is all good when things are going well, if Punter fails, they fall in a heap.
There is nobody in this current team that could lay claim to doing the hard work when needed that Punter has shown in his test and oneday career.
For me, Clark has alot to say but little evidence of any real fight.
I agree, Stuart Clark is not a no.3.
Wally Carter
4 Jan 2010, 10:06
There is no evidence that suggest Clark is a no 3. I seriously doubt he could handle the pressure of the no 3 position. Most of his runs come when Punter or our top order fire. The last two innings for me show that when under pressure, he crumbles. Same with Hussey and North. It is all good when things are going well, if Punter fails, they fall in a heap.
There is nobody in this current team that could lay claim to doing the hard work when needed that Punter has shown in his test and oneday career.
For me, Clark has alot to say but little evidence of any real fight.
Pretty much agree with that. I would leave Clark in the team, but I see him as the "luxury" player, and you can only afford one of those in a test team. He is definitely NOT Captain material and the selectors better get a plan b enacted quickly.
North has tried his hardest but is a little short of this calibre and Hussey has tailed off.
Siddle has also gone off the boil after enduring a couple of series of completely dead wickets. Johnson is erratic and we cannot build a bowling attack around him and Bollinger is solid without looking a world beater.
The selectors do not pay enough attention to form.
XFactor1979
4 Jan 2010, 10:26
hussey was once known for hanging around with the tail
not anymore
Fighters
Katich
Ponting
Haddin
Johnson
Too many airy fairy cricketers in the team at the moment.
The batting line up is unbalanced and the bowling line up also needs a shakeup.
I wouldn't be classing Haddin as a fighter.
He gives his wicket away far too easily far too often for my liking. Yesterday for instance was classic Haddin.
Selective Retention
4 Jan 2010, 16:22
They'd want to show up tomorrow. A few places up for grabs otherwise. Actually who am I kidding, no one will be dropped even if we do get rolled for 120 again.
Bit too much to ask for most of them to hang in there when the going gets tough. That might take too long.
No doubt most of them have appointments at the solarium or pedicures booked in that they have to rush off to.
danielnajdek
4 Jan 2010, 17:05
They'll be lucky to get Pakistan to bat again. If North and Hussey fail again in the second innings while under pressure surely they have to get the chop.If you can't perform under pressure and grind out a 50 then don't play for Australia.Go play for your state team and never come back!
They'll be lucky to get Pakistan to bat again. If North and Hussey fail again in the second innings while under pressure surely they have to get the chop.If you can't perform under pressure and grind out a 50 then don't play for Australia.Go play for your state team and never come back!
Yeah and if you cant take a wicket with the new ball or average under 40 as a test match opening bowler you should also go and play for your state and never come back!
danielnajdek
4 Jan 2010, 18:05
Yeah and if you cant take a wicket with the new ball or average under 40 as a test match opening bowler you should also go and play for your state and never come back!
:rolleyes: glad your not coming back for a while.
Underdog
4 Jan 2010, 18:13
They'll be lucky to get Pakistan to bat again. If North and Hussey fail again in the second innings while under pressure surely they have to get the chop.If you can't perform under pressure and grind out a 50 then don't play for Australia.Go play for your state team and never come back!
You can't drop Hussey on current form.
He averaged 47 against the Windies and he is averaging 38 against Pakistan (3rd best for Australia behind Watson and Katich).
No use using our 1st innings total as a knee jerk reaction as he was also easily our best batsman.
Bomber Bears
4 Jan 2010, 18:40
I think Clarke showed he could play the moving ball well enough when he was our best batsmen in the ashes. I just wonder if he is fully fit or if his back is causing more concern than he lets on. Pretty sure the problem is disc related, which is what cut jaques down in his prime.
Ponting is struggling. Stats dont tell the whole story but his batting average has dropped down to 55 now, and over the past 3 years his haverage is about 42.5. His average over the last 12 months is 37.something. These are the stats of a player who father time is catching up with, a steady decline over a long period. I think he has a year left.
North might not last much longer unfortunately, because he looked to be a good player in his initial performances, his form this summer has been poor. Hussey was lucky to cling to a spot in England thats for sure.
The talk after the win in melbourne really pissed me off, it seemed such a false sense of security winning that game and some of the shite that was talked afterwards, eg Mitch Johnsons sudden excellent bowling despite the fact he has bowled poorly apart from maybe 3 or 4 innings since the start of the ashes. You cant have one really good win and think some of the shiteness is gone just like that.
TheColeTrain
5 Jan 2010, 10:05
Hughes has shown some real guts this morning so far.
Good signs that he can fight it out when the ball is doind something
King Elvis
5 Jan 2010, 17:30
I'll forgive a couple, but the following players are too soft;
Clarke
Haddin
North
Punter and Katich are the only two in the side (Huss can still do it, and I wont call him soft, but he's not the force of nature he once was, and Watson is rapidly getting there) who I have faith in when we need to dig ourselves out of a hole.
Problem is, batting at 1 and 3, when we're in the hole, they can't dig us out of it.
XFactor1979
5 Jan 2010, 17:58
once again pakistan have shown us, that if you cut the head off, the body wont survive for much longer
is ponting becoming a little bit divisive? the opposition knows once they get through him it becomes a psychological death blow
i'd say its more like watson.
he and hussey are just about the only reliable ones at the moment.
i'd say its more like watson.
he and hussey are just about the only reliable ones at the moment.
Test batsmen have become victims of dead pitches. Suddenly they were faced with a pitch that did a bit, not a lot, and they could not adjust their games and attitudes to fight through it. Runs are runs no matter how long it takes you to get them. Some days you just need to knuckle down, keep your wicket in tact and be happy to score slowly. We have too many egos who think that they need to smash attacks to all parts and who are not prepared to bat for long periods of time
Plugger35
5 Jan 2010, 21:14
Apart from Katich, Hussey is probably the only real fighter type batsman in the current top order but unfortunately he is probably past his best now and can't be relied on to play the fighting rearguard innings anymore.
hussey was once known for hanging around with the tail
not anymore
Well we were both proven right (picking Hussey as the fighter) and wrong (saying he was past it).
Hussey was back to his gritty, fighting best today. Having said that, he was lucky to survive those three dropped catches by Akmal and could well have been out cheaply.
Bulldogs Roar
5 Jan 2010, 22:49
The problem is once your in the test team these days as a bat, its hard to get out of it unless your young (phil hughes). Players need to be dropped so they can go away and work harder. At the moment their techniques arnt up to scratch and they are not being put under enough pressure by the selectors to fix the problems.
Out:
Marcus North - How many poor score has he made now, when has he ever made runs when we needed him too.
Clarke - Another who's technique is suspect at the moment. Been talked up as the next skipper so where is his incentive to work harder. Thinking about the increased pay packet if you ask me. More selection pressure needs to be applied, he is not the captain at the moment.
In:
Cameron White - Has made runs at first class level (15 hundreds at 42.19), has international experience and has shown the temperament to be that fighter in recent One Day series in India when wickets were falling. Dont worry about his bowling, his batting is good enough for him to get picked alone. Leads his team well, good in the slips and still young enough to be the next skipper in my opinion.
Steve Smith/David Hussey - Both are in form in this years shield competition, whilst david Hussey has more experience and played alot more first class cricket, smith may well be the youngster they need to give a go. Can also provide that extra spinning option. Maybe these two are different sort of fighters as Gilchrist was. He attacked the opposition to turn the game, much the same as these two.
Time for the selectors to earn there money, make some hard decisions for the futre of australian cricket.
I wouldnt mind seeing Punter drop down to number 5 and perhaps play the steadying, anchor role that Steve Waugh was able to provide. He's becoming a bit obsessive with having to be the 'counter attacker' and taking the attack to the bowlers when this role may be a bit past him.
I would put Clarke to 3 and really test him, see if he can become the premier batsmen in the team, and play Punters counter attacking game. Leave Huss at 4, Punter at 5, drop North for White at 6 who's batting has come a long way while still retaining its explosiveness ala Symonds, not to mention his safe hands at first slip and tactical nouce. Then Haddin at 7, leaving Johnson and the bowlers to come.
Wally Carter
6 Jan 2010, 06:03
Time for the selectors to earn there money, make some hard decisions for the futre of australian cricket.
Very good point.:thumbsu:
What we really should be asking ourselves is, Where are the fighters at the selection table?
The selectors seem to be picking the team with a view to keeping their jobs first and foremost.
They need to show some balls!
Underdog
6 Jan 2010, 10:16
Very good point.:thumbsu:
What we really should be asking ourselves is, Where are the fighters at the selection table?
The selectors seem to be picking the team with a view to keeping their jobs first and foremost.
They need to show some balls!
The ABC commentators raised a valid point yesterday.
The buzz words from the Australian camp are continually "this is a team in transition"...well...no it's not. We are not really rebuilding or blooding youth. Sure, Hughes and McKay get the odd game and inexperienced players like Dougy and Hilfy are getting games, but stating the team is in transition alludes to wholesale changes towards youthful players.
mayhem20202
6 Jan 2010, 10:37
I wouldnt mind seeing Punter drop down to number 5 and perhaps play the steadying, anchor role that Steve Waugh was able to provide. He's becoming a bit obsessive with having to be the 'counter attacker' and taking the attack to the bowlers when this role may be a bit past him.
I would put Clarke to 3 and really test him, see if he can become the premier batsmen in the team, and play Punters counter attacking game. Leave Huss at 4, Punter at 5, drop North for White at 6 who's batting has come a long way while still retaining its explosiveness ala Symonds, not to mention his safe hands at first slip and tactical nouce. Then Haddin at 7, leaving Johnson and the bowlers to come.
No way. Batting at 3 and batting at 5 are completely different things. Ponting bats at 3, or doesn't play. Michael Clarke's style of play is not suited to 3. He should stay at 5, is doing very well there, should stay there. Shaun Marsh and Usman Khawaja will replace Ponting and Katich as the other opener and 3 in the long run and Clarke can stay at 5. Not many middle order players successfully move up the order to bat at 3. If you can think of any, let me know.
To answer the OP:
Down towards the bottom of the order, apparently.
But your point is valid. It is all too easy to dispatch this middle order easily.
wavefall21
6 Jan 2010, 11:34
Can't believe we have had to rely on Siddle to show some rear guard action, and Hussey after being dropped several times, Punter Pup and North should watch closely and learn how to value your wicket and make the most of your chances
roostersgal4eva
6 Jan 2010, 12:40
I think players are more in the ODI and 20/20 mould these days and the days of the test player who can hand around for ages - Katch can do it but is chasised for being too boring
Another reason both forms of the game will kill Test Cricket slowly I believe
No way. Batting at 3 and batting at 5 are completely different things. Ponting bats at 3, or doesn't play. Michael Clarke's style of play is not suited to 3. He should stay at 5, is doing very well there, should stay there. Shaun Marsh and Usman Khawaja will replace Ponting and Katich as the other opener and 3 in the long run and Clarke can stay at 5. Not many middle order players successfully move up the order to bat at 3. If you can think of any, let me know.
Oh let me see, um I'm fairly sure there was a bloke umm Ponting might have been his name who started in the middle order but was quite successful when moved to three. :rolleyes:
A large number of batsmen begin in the middle order before moving up to the 3 and 4 spots or opening. The jump isnt as difficult as you make out.
mayhem20202
8 Jan 2010, 20:56
Oh let me see, um I'm fairly sure there was a bloke umm Ponting might have been his name who started in the middle order but was quite successful when moved to three. :rolleyes:
A large number of batsmen begin in the middle order before moving up to the 3 and 4 spots or opening. The jump isnt as difficult as you make out.
Ponting always played all his state cricket at 3, then, got into the Test side, on spot at 3, batted at 6, got dropped, went back to Tas, batted at 3 again for Tassie and then got back into the Test side at 3. Clarke has never regularly batted in the top 3 in 4 or 5 day cricket for anyone.
mayhem20202
8 Jan 2010, 20:58
Oh let me see, um I'm fairly sure there was a bloke umm Ponting might have been his name who started in the middle order but was quite successful when moved to three. :rolleyes:
A large number of batsmen begin in the middle order before moving up to the 3 and 4 spots or opening. The jump isnt as difficult as you make out.
Name a few of this large number of batsmen that have moved up from 5 or 6 to bat at 3? We're not talking about opening or batting at 4, we are talking about 3.
Bomber Bears
8 Jan 2010, 21:21
Ponting always played all his state cricket at 3, then, got into the Test side, on spot at 3, batted at 6, got dropped, went back to Tas, batted at 3 again for Tassie and then got back into the Test side at 3. Clarke has never regularly batted in the top 3 in 4 or 5 day cricket for anyone.Got back into the test side as a 6 actually. It wasnt until Langer got dropped in England that Ponting moved up to 3 in the test side
mayhem20202
9 Jan 2010, 06:03
Got back into the test side as a 6 actually. It wasnt until Langer got dropped in England that Ponting moved up to 3 in the test side
This is true, sorry, my mistake. However, the bit about always batting at 3 for Tassie is true as well. Clarke has never regularly batted in the top 3 for NSW.
Just a few points to single out on here.
Michael Clarke does not have the technique to bat at three. If you watch him closely enough he still hits a lot of balls through the field (not over or along the ground) making him very catchable early. His temperament seems to be the same as Ponting's, dominant from as early as you can and this has seen him struggle to get past those 'starts' of 30 - 49 people sometimes mention. Clarke also tends to drive a lot of balls away from his body making him very prone to behind the wicket dismissals (caught in slips, caught behind etc) whilst also allowing a gate for the ball to swing through by very good bowling (ala Sydney). Michael Clarke as one poster alluded to, f****** s**** me. He has had this reputation oof being our next 'great white hope' and has done some nice things, but has failed to become a world beater. People need to realize that Clarke is now 28, 29 in April. He should be setting the world on fire, the way people were billing him up to be when he was ... younger.
Back on topic anyways. If young Callum Ferguson was fit and ready to go he would be coming in for Marcus North. I feel the selectors have been super impressed with him in the shorter forms of the game. Ponting also remains on record saying he sees Ferguson as a player of the future. He would be able to take up his apprenticeship at 6 much like Ponting did, when Ponting does retire, I feel Ferguson has the game, technique, shot selection, temperament and style to suit batting at number 3. I have tipped this a while ago and I would not be surprised to see this happen in the long run.
The Reaper
9 Jan 2010, 09:06
Just a few points to single out on here.
Michael Clarke does not have the technique to bat at three. If you watch him closely enough he still hits a lot of balls through the field (not over or along the ground) making him very catchable early. His temperament seems to be the same as Ponting's, dominant from as early as you can and this has seen him struggle to get past those 'starts' of 30 - 49 people sometimes mention. Clarke also tends to drive a lot of balls away from his body making him very prone to behind the wicket dismissals (caught in slips, caught behind etc) whilst also allowing a gate for the ball to swing through by very good bowling (ala Sydney). Michael Clarke as one poster alluded to, f****** s**** me. He has had this reputation oof being our next 'great white hope' and has done some nice things, but has failed to become a world beater. People need to realize that Clarke is now 28, 29 in April. He should be setting the world on fire, the way people were billing him up to be when he was ... younger.
Back on topic anyways. If young Callum Ferguson was fit and ready to go he would be coming in for Marcus North. I feel the selectors have been super impressed with him in the shorter forms of the game. Ponting also remains on record saying he sees Ferguson as a player of the future. He would be able to take up his apprenticeship at 6 much like Ponting did, when Ponting does retire, I feel Ferguson has the game, technique, shot selection, temperament and style to suit batting at number 3. I have tipped this a while ago and I would not be surprised to see this happen in the long run.
yeah
Ferguson does look like a top order player
yeah
Ferguson does look like a top order player
He has it all.
The thing I find the most attractive about him is his shot selection. Short ball he pulls and cuts well, his driving is good and he has a good temperament, a good head on his shoulders. He is unfazed by anything. The only thing that I may not be able to see in him, is his ability to lift the tempo and take control when required ala Bradman, Boon, Langer and now Ponting.
mayhem20202
10 Jan 2010, 06:54
He has it all.
The thing I find the most attractive about him is his shot selection. Short ball he pulls and cuts well, his driving is good and he has a good temperament, a good head on his shoulders. He is unfazed by anything. The only thing that I may not be able to see in him, is his ability to lift the tempo and take control when required ala Bradman, Boon, Langer and now Ponting.
I assume by listing tempo and taking control, you mean, upping the run rate. Have you seen his one day figures? I think that is the last thing you should be worrying about with him, he belts hell through it.
I assume by listing tempo and taking control, you mean, upping the run rate. Have you seen his one day figures? I think that is the last thing you should be worrying about with him, he belts hell through it.
He is a very good accumulator of runs, much in the mould of a Michael Bevan, in where he looks to build and then accumulate as he goes.
And I gave seen his one day figures too champ ;)