Would you swap Neagle for ...

[Godzke]

... any of the players listed in the poll?

I was just thinking through which club would finish higher in 2010 between the Hawks and Pies, so sure enough I began comparing their respective forward, midfield and backline departments. But it got me thinking about Travis Cloke.

Would you swap Neagle for Cloke? Neutral supporters would say no but we've seen what he's capable of and Cloke, frankly, is still looking for the same breakout year that Neagle is after but has shown a little more.

I've thrown some other names up there to stimulate a bit of discussion.

[EFL Boy]

Poll not working.

[bipolarbeaR]

Needs moar poll.

[jade_00]

No not for any of those.

Neagle has shown that he has some serious skill, he just needs to work on the physical side.

[Godzke]

Yeah took me a while but it's up... trying to think of some more names that are more or less on par with Cloke.

Tippet's shown too much and would be an obvious answer to swap but I'm looking at young forwards who just haven't fired but still have the potential to break out.

[bipolarbeaR]

I would only swap for Kennedy, loaded with talent and a great attitude.
Cloak reminds me of McPhee too much, and the Cloaks are arrogant tards anyhow.
Tom Hawkins is just too similar to Neagle to swap him, would be pointless.

[Godzke]

Same here bear. Voted no on Hawkins and Cloke but yes on Kennedy. That's not to imply I currently rate Neagle above those two but in terms of what he can offer us going forward he can certainly be better than both.

[mark1881]

Poll not working.

you should see a doctor about that

[Ben the Gooner]

I voted for the last two, but Hawkins was 50/50.

I rate Kennedy very highly (lol Carlton).

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

For Kennedy.

[Spikey]

Not for Hawkins, yes for JK and Cloke is interesting. Leaning towards yes I would.

[beev]

Kennedy

[Sir Bomber]

Hawkins has been developing well and would fit. Young, Tall and Strong and starting to show a footy brain and arrogance.:thumbsu:

[Giggidy Giggidy]

Cloke & Kennedy are more CHF types and we may be set there already (with Gumby, Hurley, etc...) and sacrificing our #1 FF prospect in the trade. However ignoring team-balance:

Yes - Cloke. He has shown a lot more to date (B & F) and presents less of a risk than Neagle (ankle, fitness, etc...)
No - Hawkins (has shown much less despite the flag)
Yes - Kennedy (big wraps for him, may make the Judd deal look ordinary for Carltank)

[Jonesy1987]

For Kennedy in a heart beat think he will be very special.

[bombre-boy]

No way for cloak or hawkins...
Kennedy is a 50/50, but i would prefer Neagle..

[Beerfish]

I hope Jay doesn't read BF.. :(

Nevertheless, to answer the OP, I'd like to see how Jay goes next season before considering any trade but Kennedy will be good (also lol @ carlolton) and I don't think Cloke will ever be better than he is now. The guy can't kick for shit. Jay is a very good shot for goal.. from memory.

Hawkins.. meh.

[Enki]

Kennedy, yes.

Although I don't think Kennedy will be a gun like some predict, he still has the potential to be quite a good player.

[Haduken]

No to any of them for mine.

Cloke is a lead up forward, more akin to the role I see Gumbleton or Hurley playing, not a stay at home FF. Jay is much, much better shot for goal than Cloke is.

Hawkins is actually someone who I see as very similar to Jay, and has been equally lambasted at times for being slow/overweight. He's starting to prove his critics wrong and I suspect Jay will too, and Jay is a much much better shot for goal than the Tomahawk.

Kennedy I haven't seen a lot of, but from all prospects he's sounding like he'll be a decent player. However I also think Jay can be a decent player so I'll stick with the devil I know.

Honestly I still think we need to see how Jay handles this season before we all go running for the pitchforks and torches.

[zen dice man]

Hawkins is Ok, very similar to Neagle.
Cloke is probably not as good as his ok brothers.
Kennedy is a mystery, seen him once & was good.

Prefer to stay with Jay - unlike Cloke ( paints nude men) & Hawkins ( school boy) he has a level of raw brutality that can really cause havoc once he is up & running. If he can get fit he will be seriously scarey to play against.

[Beerfish]

Cloke is probably not as good as his ok brothers.

Are you serious?

He's easily the best of the three.. which still isn't saying that much.

I can understand why the Pies took all three initially just to get Travis. He has buckets of potential but hasn't ever really got his shit together. I don't think he ever will now.. could be wrong though, it does happen every now and then. :D

[SirJimi05]

I hope Jay doesn't read BF.. :(



My exact thoughts as soon as i read the title. Very shit thread imo.

This is the time of the year where we should be getting behind our players and giving them a chance.

On that basis i say no, no and no.

[SirJimi05]

Are you serious?

He's easily the best of the three.. which still isn't saying that much.

I can understand why the Pies took all three initially just to get Travis. He has buckets of potential but hasn't ever really got his shit together. I don't think he ever will now.. could be wrong though, it does happen every now and then. :D


Jason was the best of the lot imo. MM can take a lot of the blame for his demise.

[Beerfish]

Jason was the best of the lot imo. MM can take a lot of the blame for his demise.
Second best for mine.

[Skeeta Olly]

This is the time of the year where we should be getting behind our players and giving them a chance.

On that basis i say no, no and no.

+1 to that.

[digger1990]

the doggies would give you shaun higgins and a first round draft pick for neagle :D

[Lockyer24]

Delusionville. He isn't half of any of those guys you named.

[Godzke]

My exact thoughts as soon as i read the title. Very shit thread imo.

This is the time of the year where we should be getting behind our players and giving them a chance.

On that basis i say no, no and no.
Hypothetical thread designed to generate discussion on where Essendon BF supporters think Neagle will be in the next few years relative to the names mentioned.

Stop having a cry.

[Beerfish]

Delusionville. He isn't half of any of those guys you named.

He wouldn't have to show much to be better than Cloke... any of them.

[windyhill]

Any of them. Kennedy first choice.

[Mad Bomber Sean]

Are you serious?

He's easily the best of the three.. which still isn't saying that much.

I can understand why the Pies took all three initially just to get Travis. He has buckets of potential but hasn't ever really got his shit together. I don't think he ever will now.. could be wrong though, it does happen every now and then. :D

No way..the current one has delivered less than his younger brothers. He is a poor mans Mcphee & that says something.

Cant remember a game where he hasnt been owned by an Essendon defender of late.

Stay on board Neagle fellas. He is a machine & will dominate given some time

[Jonesy1987]

Delusionville. He isn't half of any of those guys you named.

Crock of shit, he has shown as much as Hawkins. Averages nearly two goals a game, playing with constant injuries and yet to complete a full preseason whilst playing second fiddle to Lloyd and Lucas.

Sure he has terrible endurance and fitness, but he possess abundantly better skills than all of those mentioned. Chances are with his body in the shape it is and his injury history, he won't reach his potential, but to doubt its existence, then you are the one being delusional.

[morebeer]

Im not sure Jay would mind to much reading this thread, in fact it would probably provide a nice ego boost.

All the options have provided more to this point than him and I would take any of them for the future aswell.

And don't get all uppity about not supporting an Essendon player. I think the guy has good potential, especially a nice shot for goal and nice hands. But all the other options have their good qualities too and its just because we are one eyed that we only see their faults.

I just can not get excited about a guy who has been in the system since 2005 and has never been in the correct shape to play an elite level sport. Even with injuries it is amazing that a full time profesional cant manage to get into shape.

[The Panther]

He wouldn't have to show much to be better than Cloke... any of them.

He would have to win a B&F in a side that was a kick away from a GF berth & completely dominate the calibre of a Bolton, Glass & Harley in 3 successive finals matches to get to a level above Cloke.

[smiddaz123]

He wouldn't have to show much to be better than Cloke... any of them.
He would have to win a Best & Fairest in a top 4 side for starters. And also win best Finals player in that year.

As an outsider, I'd say the guys in the poll have shown more currently than Neagle. In terms of talent though, Neagle is equal to any of them at the very worst, probably more talented than one or two, so he could definitely be worth taking over the other guys based on what he could become. He's skillful and has natural football smarts, but seems to be overweight and lazy at times to me.

As for Jason being the best Cloke....please. There's a reason he's the one that was never re-drafted.

[Shane Hird]

Travis Cloke is f---ing useless.

Neagle will get better. Hope he plays 200+ games for the EFC.


Stupid thread.

[Jonesy1987]

Matthew Lloyd never won a B&F I suppose that means Cloke was better than him aswell...

[Hirdman]

Im not sure Jay would mind to much reading this thread, in fact it would probably provide a nice ego boost.

All the options have provided more to this point than him and I would take any of them for the future aswell.

And don't get all uppity about not supporting an Essendon player. I think the guy has good potential, especially a nice shot for goal and nice hands. But all the other options have their good qualities too and its just because we are one eyed that we only see their faults.

I just can not get excited about a guy who has been in the system since 2005 and has never been in the correct shape to play an elite level sport. Even with injuries it is amazing that a full time profesional cant manage to get into shape.



SPOT ON - a lot of bomber dick rubbing in this thread.

[smiddaz123]

Matthew Lloyd never won a B&F I suppose that means Cloke was better than him aswell...
Clearly my point was that if a player wins a B & F in a good team, you'd have to show a fair bit to show as much as he has.

Never mind I guess......

[Jonesy1987]

Clearly my point was that if a player wins a B & F in a good team, you'd have to show a fair bit to show as much as he has.

Never mind I guess......

B&F's are very subjective, based on team requirements more than performance. Too often they are used as barometer for judging talent.

Not that it matters as Cloke did have a good year in 07 but IMO was well behind Lockyer and Pendlebury. So I don't really hold the Copeland in high esteem.

[Beerfish]

He would have to win a B&F in a side that was a kick away from a GF berth & completely dominate the calibre of a Bolton, Glass & Harley in 3 successive finals matches to get to a level above Cloke.


He would have to win a Best & Fairest in a top 4 side for starters. And also win best Finals player in that year.

Don't you guys have a Daisy Thomas thread to be in? :o:D

[smiddaz123]

B&F's are very subjective, based on team requirements more than performance. Too often they are used as barometer for judging talent.

Not that it matters as Cloke did have a good year in 07 but IMO was well behind Lockyer and Pendlebury. So I don't really hold the Copeland in high esteem.
If you win the B & F, you've clearly had a quality year. It's up for debate whether you were the best or not, but it can't be disputed it was a superb year.

I honestly don't know what you're disagreeing with.....help me out.

[Jonesy1987]

If you win the B & F, you've clearly had a quality year. It's up for debate whether you were the best or not, but it can't be disputed it was a superb year.

I honestly don't know what you're disagreeing with.....help me out.

He would have to win a Best & Fairest in a top 4 side for starters. And also win best Finals player in that year.

I followed by saying Matthew Lloyd never won a B&F, using the same logic; Cloke showed more than Lloyd ever did.

Not disagreeing with the fact that Cloke has shown more than Neagle, just that B&F's are subjective and based on variables, thus largely irrelevant outside of the club.

[The Panther]

Not disagreeing with the fact that Cloke has shown more than Neagle, just that B&F's are subjective and based on variables, thus largely irrelevant outside of the club.

If you're worried about the subjectivity of Cloke, I'd suggest you whip on a DVD of his 07' Finals Series. In successive weeks, he tore apart Craig Bolton, Darren Glass & Tom Harley.

Ironic that Essendon fans laugh at Cloke, he has received Brownlow votes in 5 of the last 7 games against Essendon.

[Jonesy1987]

If you're worried about the subjectivity of Cloke, I'd suggest you whip on a DVD of his 07' Finals Series. In successive weeks, he tore apart Craig Bolton, Darren Glass & Tom Harley.

Subjective nature of B&F's not of Cloke... I know he was very good in 07, I probably went to more Collingwood games than you did.

Since his form has been poor, basing talent on nearly 3 seasons ago is worrying to say the least.

[The Panther]

Since his form has been poor

He kicked more goals in 2008 than he did in 07.

[smiddaz123]

He kicked more goals in 2008 than he did in 07.
Based on the fact his shithouse accuracy became slightly less shithouse....His 2007 season was streets above any other season.

In 2008 he was triple teamed at times, so worse performances was to be expected. 2009 was a genuinely awful year though, time will tell just how much the off the field troubles played a part in it.

[Jonesy1987]

He kicked more goals in 2008 than he did in 07.

OMG! Awesome! Good for him!

Who gives a shit, its irrelevant. He played much further up the ground in 07.

[The Panther]

He played much further up the ground in 07.

Incorrect.

In 07 he had Rocca as support - Rocca kicked 54 goals in 07 & spent more time in the square than Cloke.

In 08, he didn't have Rocca as support. Rocca played the first 5 games at FF (He kicked 6 against Freo from the square).

JA soley played as the FF in the last 10 matches.

[zen dice man]

SPOT ON - a lot of bomber dick rubbing in this thread.

Pretty much all we do round here ;)

[Jonesy1987]

Incorrect.

In 07 he had Rocca as support - Rocca kicked 54 goals in 07 & spent more time in the square than Cloke.

In 08, he didn't have Rocca as support. Rocca played the first 5 games at FF (He kicked 6 against Freo from the square).

JA soley played as the FF in the last 10 matches.


Bullshit, he played out of the square on Anzac Day when he kicked 5 Ryder, he also played deep against Geelong when Rocca played the dummy FF and dragged Scarlett up the ground out of the play and also played deep against Port and Sydney late in the year.

Medhurst and Cloke interchanged heaps leading up and staying deep.

[The Panther]

Bullshit, he played out of the square on Anzac Day when he kicked 5

If he played out of the square on Anzac Day, he wouldn't have kicked his first & 2nd goals from outside 50 (it was in the 2nd quarter, Punt Road end when we got on a roll) just on the cusp of the centre square like he did. He also took a big mark over Ryder that was directly at the 50 metre line, which he saluted with a goal in the 4th.

Medhurst was our lead up FF that day.

[Jonesy1987]

If he played out of the square on Anzac Day, he wouldn't have kicked his first & 2nd goals from outside 50 (it was in the 2nd quarter, Punt Road end when we got on a roll) just on the cusp of the centre square like he did. He also took a big mark over Ryder that was directly at the 50 metre line, which he saluted with a goal in the 4th.

Medhurst was our lead up FF that day.

Reimers, Nash and Slattery were playing on Medhurst so they could rebound from the HBF... Medhurst was doubling back all day but not out of the square, Cloke kicked 3 goals from inside 40.

Lloyd played FF yet would constantly kick goals from outside 50, doesn't mean shit. Cloke played closer to goal in 08 rarely went outside 75 from goal, whereas 07 he would lead far up to the wing. The reason he had nearly 70 more touches and 30 more tackles that year.

[yaco55]

No to any of them for mine.

Cloke is a lead up forward, more akin to the role I see Gumbleton or Hurley playing, not a stay at home FF. Jay is much, much better shot for goal than Cloke is.

Hawkins is actually someone who I see as very similar to Jay, and has been equally lambasted at times for being slow/overweight. He's starting to prove his critics wrong and I suspect Jay will too, and Jay is a much much better shot for goal than the Tomahawk.

Kennedy I haven't seen a lot of, but from all prospects he's sounding like he'll be a decent player. However I also think Jay can be a decent player so I'll stick with the devil I know.



Honestly I still think we need to see how Jay handles this season before we all go running for the pitchforks and torches.

You hit the nail on the head.

Hawkins would be the closest if looking at a like for like.

I doubt that you would consider Cloke because he is already a B and F winner.

I like the look of Henderson at Carlton.

I suggest that if Neagle doesn't make a worthwhile contribution in 2009 he will be hardly be a tradeable proposition.

Except lots of flaming from Collingwood supporters.

[digger1990]

so i didnt get a reply with the higgins and first rounder for neagle fair enough, neagel is diffently worth more.. what about higgins, griffen and a first rounder diffently fair :)

[EFL Boy]

Can you bugger off?

[Jonesy1987]

so i didnt get a reply with the higgins and first rounder for neagle fair enough, neagel is diffently worth more.. what about higgins, griffen and a first rounder diffently fair :)

I do it for Higgins alone and through in our first rounder.

[Beerfish]

I like the look of Henderson at Carlton.

Blue suits him?

Or were you referring to something else? :confused:

Except lots of flaming from Collingwood supporters.

Why? Because there has been?

[Jonesy1987]

I like the look of Henderson at Carlton.


Can you please elaborate? From what I've seen he has really shown nothing of note.

[rusman]

Pretty hypothetical but if was offered any of these 3 in trade week for neagle id take them to be honest. All have shown more consistantly imo. Im a fan of neagle but has a huge question mark on him that he still hasnt shaken off having another injury this preseason.
This being said I thought he was pretty good last year and hope he plays 22 and lives up to the talent the boy has

[yaco55]

Jonesy

What I am suggesting is that you need to compare apples with apples.

The three players mentioned in the Poll are much better performed than Neagle at this stage.

It is better to find 3 players who have a similar profile.

Neagle has a two year contract so at the end of 2011 he will be 6 years in the system.

He will hardly be a trade option if he hasn't consolidated a position in the next 2 years.

[The Donners]

so i didnt get a reply with the higgins and first rounder for neagle fair enough, neagel is diffently worth more.. what about higgins, griffen and a first rounder diffently fair :)

Higgins and a first rounder, you can keep Griffen.

[ant555]

Jonesy

What I am suggesting is that you need to compare apples with apples.

The three players mentioned in the Poll are much better performed than Neagle at this stage.

It is better to find 3 players who have a similar profile.

Neagle has a two year contract so at the end of 2011 he will be 6 years in the system.

He will hardly be a trade option if he hasn't consolidated a position in the next 2 years.

Travis Cloke yes but there is hardly a lot between Hawkins , Kennedy and Neagle apart from the 20 odd games more that Hakins and Kennedy have played.

Neagle 20 games , 30 goals (ave 1.5 per game) best 3 goals x 5 times.

Kennedy 45 games 49 goals (ave 1.1 per game) best 4 goals x 2 times.

Hawkins 43 games 59 goals (ave 1.4 per game) best 5 goals x once , 4 goals x twice.

All three are under 50 games, are averaging around the same goals per game and have some ups and down. With these three you are comparing apples to apples as despite the game difference all are yet to prove they can hold down FF for longer than a season.

[stander]

Travis Cloke yes but there is hardly a lot between Hawkins , Kennedy and Neagle apart from the 20 odd games more that Hakins and Kennedy have played.

Neagle 20 games , 30 goals (ave 1.5 per game) best 3 goals x 5 times.

Kennedy 45 games 49 goals (ave 1.1 per game) best 4 goals x 2 times.

Hawkins 43 games 59 goals (ave 1.4 per game) best 5 goals x once , 4 goals x twice.

All three are under 50 games, are averaging around the same goals per game and have some ups and down. With these three you are comparing apples to apples as despite the game difference all are yet to prove they can hold down FF for longer than a season.

I always find that stat about how many times a forward was the target of a forward thrust, an intriguing one. I wonder how many times Neagle was the target to kick his 30?

[digger1990]

Higgins and a first rounder, you can keep Griffen.


what do you mean?? griffen would be your star onballer!

[Ludwig van Bertstare]

Wobbles supporters still talking up Cloke?

[Slattery_20]

Can you please elaborate? From what I've seen he has really shown nothing of note.
Haven't you heard?
He used to just be a big, 10 game CHB/CHF prospect.
But over the off-season, he's actually shown that he can definitely be the leader of an AFL forward line.
Incredible turnaround in form, not seen since Warnock went from not getting a game at Freo to being the 2nd most talented (behind Kreuzer) young ruckman in the game.

[Godzke]

The poll no doubt has been skewed by non-essendon supporters voting. Would be awesome if BF came up with a vbulletin feature which allowed only Essendon supporters to vote.

[HARKER]

No offense but the three other boys are miles in front of Neagle right now.

As an outsider here, has Neagle got attitude issues or will he come good?
Given he pulls out half of what his old man put in he should have a long time tenure at AFL level.

[Jobe Watson]

Let Neagle play a full season first.

[Shane Hird]

A thread that encourages and permits Collingwood posters to actually have opinions on Travis bloody Cloke and we let them post those opinions... come on people!

Yes, lets see Son of Merv play this season and see if he can cut it as an AFL full-forward. I wouldn't dream of getting rid of him for anyone.


Panther Man ,Cloke is a good player, and I have watched his football career with great interest believe it or not. But lately he just doesn't deliver the goods too often in tight Collingwood games and goes missing in qtrs where they really need him.

I don't know how many times I've laughed my head off watching him get beaten and struggling to to do anything right in lots of matches over the last two seasons. You look to players like Didak and other smaller goal kickers to win you games. Cloke should be an absolute star by now but he isn't. He has a flawed kicking action that can't be change and shanks the ball in critical moments when you need a goal.

I'd rather have Jay... and I pray ,that he comes good

[Smyth94]

No offense but the three other boys are miles in front of Neagle right now.

As an outsider here, has Neagle got attitude issues or will he come good?
Given he pulls out half of what his old man put in he should have a long time tenure at AFL level.

Refer to ant555's post

Travis Cloke yes but there is hardly a lot between Hawkins , Kennedy and Neagle apart from the 20 odd games more that Hakins and Kennedy have played.

Neagle 20 games , 30 goals (ave 1.5 per game) best 3 goals x 5 times.

Kennedy 45 games 49 goals (ave 1.1 per game) best 4 goals x 2 times.

Hawkins 43 games 59 goals (ave 1.4 per game) best 5 goals x once , 4 goals x twice.

All three are under 50 games, are averaging around the same goals per game and have some ups and down. With these three you are comparing apples to apples as despite the game difference all are yet to prove they can hold down FF for longer than a season.

How are Kennedy and Hawkins miles in front?

[Beerfish]

Games played?

:rolleyes:

[windyhill]

Refer to ant555's post



How are Kennedy and Hawkins miles in front?

It`s called work ethic. Kennedy has it in spades.

[ant555]

It`s called work ethic. Kennedy has it in spades.

All that says is Kennedy should be better in the long run but currently both he and Neagle have only had one average to better than average season so he is hardly miles in front at this point.

[yaco55]

All that says is Kennedy should be better in the long run but currently both he and Neagle have only had one average to better than average season so he is hardly miles in front at this point.

I hadn't looked at strictly from a stats point of view but more from a perception point of view.

I can say that Neagle and Hawkins have more upside than Kennedy who tends to be more of a one dimensional player but who ends up being a better player is hard to stay.

The one thing I can say with certainty is that if Neagle doesnt hold a regular place in the team in the next 2 years - He wont be very tradeable.

[bomberstomake8]

I hadn't looked at strictly from a stats point of view but more from a perception point of view.

I can say that Neagle and Hawkins have more upside than Kennedy who tends to be more of a one dimensional player but who ends up being a better player is hard to stay.

The one thing I can say with certainty is that if Neagle doesnt hold a regular place in the team in the next 2 years - He wont be very tradeable.

Personally I would think kennedy is more versatile then both hawkins and neagle. One of neagles biggest weaknesses is that he can only play as a FF. He doesnt the engine to play anywhere else and he never will IMO, he should turn into a very good FF if things start to go right for him but if he doesnt make it as a FF then he doesnt make it as a footballer

As for the poll, i never really rated cloke, hawkins and neagle would be on a similar level imo and kennedy looks the goods at the momment

[dalethomas13]

Neagle is a very big unit, however, his body has let him down thus far.

It is clear-cut that all 3 options are ahead of him.

[Beerfish]

Personally I would think kennedy is more versatile then both hawkins and neagle.


Agreed.

Can't really understand that comment tbh.

[Skeeta Olly]

Who would I swap Neagle for? None of those.
Is Neagle better than <those>? Debatable.

[yaco55]

Agreed.

Can't really understand that comment tbh.

The point I was making about Kennedy is that he is only average at taking contested marks - That's why he doesnt have as many strings to his bow,as Neagle and Hawkins who can take contested marks.

But of course he could end up being a better player than Neagle or Hawkins.

[Beerfish]

Contested marks or not, he has the natural ability to play in more than one position which would naturally (I would've thought) given him more upside than Hawkins or Neagle.

[collingwill]

one things for sure though guys, no one would swap any of those players for neagle, thats all you need to worry about, lol at people saying they wouldnt swap neagle for cloke, funniest thread ive ever read.

[Beerfish]

Laugh it up dicknose.

Nobody would.

Deal with it.

[collingwill]

Laugh it up dicknose.

Nobody would.

Deal with it.


i couldnt read what you wrote, the tears are still flowing, ill have a look tommorow.

a fairer swap would be neagle for didak, swan, pendlebury and our 1st round draft pick, maybe big jack as well.

seriously though, id swap cloke for neagle and your 1st round draft pick, and as an added bonus you can keep neagle, we'll just take the draft pick.

[yaco55]

Contested marks or not, he has the natural ability to play in more than one position which would naturally (I would've thought) given him more upside than Hawkins or Neagle.

Kennedy is a lead up forward who plays predominantly around half forward.

I couldn't see him playing any other position in the forward line - unless he can play in defence.

[dave_27]

To be honest, we are hardly talking about the pinnacle of young KP talent there. They are hardly setting the world on fire with goals like guys like Buddy & Roughead, Riewoldt etc were already doing at there age.

I'll be very disappointed if Neagle finally gets a a few full seasons on the park and isnt better than Cloke.

I rate Neagles ability highly but I dont think his body will hold up though.

[collingwill]

To be honest, we are hardly talking about the pinnacle of young KP talent there. They are hardly setting the world on fire with goals like guys like Buddy & Roughead, Riewoldt etc were already doing at there age.

I'll be very disappointed if Neagle finally gets a a few full seasons on the park and isnt better than Cloke.

I rate Neagles ability highly but I dont think his body will hold up though.

let me save you the suspense, neagle will never get to clokes 07 form but once cloke gets his knee right, which has been an issue he will exceed 07 and become AA, cloke has already been in the AA squad of 40 as a 20 yr old.

cloke won a baf at 20, playing at CHF for a team that made the prelim, he was also voted our best finals player, 6"6, massive tank, very good one on one mark, booming kick (although wayward) funny how everyones writtin him off, i guess buddys never going to be able to get back to 08 form as well, because he had a pretty bad year as well, now lets look at neagle, lazy, unfit, cant and will never be able to play CHF, has good skills, injury prone, a better comparison would be neagle V rusling.

[Giggidy Giggidy]

cloke won a baf at 20, playing at CHF for a team that made the prelim, he was also voted our best finals player, 6"6, massive tank, very good one on one mark, booming kick

Wow, what a superstar! Yet you'd swap him for pick 20-odd (considering GC draft concessions):

Seriously though, id swap cloke for neagle and your 1st round draft pick, and as an added bonus you can keep neagle, we'll just take the draft pick.

[collingwill]

Wow, what a superstar! Yet you'd swap him for pick 20-odd (considering GC draft concessions):


it was tounge in cheek ;), and yes he is a star, dont get me wrong i wouldve swapped cloke for neagles mother after the prelim, ive never seen a player have such a shocker, remember guys neagles older (2 yrs i think) and guys like cloke dont find their best untill 25+, clokes our most valuble player IMO, if any team could pick one player from collingwood cloke would be it, very hard to find players like him, he could even play CHB or ruck.

he came from the same draft as buddy and roughy, buddys buddy and is a freak but i dont think he's that far behind roughy if he is behind at all, cloke has more upside than roughhead IMO.

you guys if givin the chance would jump at a swap for jack, i reckon you'd even throw draft picks in as well, we'd let jack go long before we let cloke go, i assure you of that, as i said rusling is the type of player who should be on the list.

[Giggidy Giggidy]

it was tounge in cheek ;)

seriously though, id swap cloke for neagle and your 1st round draft pick, and as an added bonus you can keep neagle, we'll just take the draft pick.

Figured, so maybe you shouldn't say "seriously".:cool:

if any team could pick one player from collingwood cloke would be it, very hard to find players like him, he could even play CHB or ruck.

I reckon most would take Pendlebury in a heartbeat, maybe Swan or Sidebottom, but not many would take Cloke.

he came from the same draft as buddy and roughy, buddys buddy and is a freak but i dont think he's that far behind roughy if he is behind at all, cloke has more upside than roughhead IMO.

Very different player to Roughy, and IMO a long way behind him ATM.

you guys if givin the chance would jump at a swap for jack, i reckon you'd even throw draft picks in as well, we'd let jack go long before we let cloke go, i assure you of that, as i said rusling is the type of player who should be on the list.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[Slattery_20]

it was tounge in cheek ;), and yes he is a star, dont get me wrong i wouldve swapped cloke for neagles mother after the prelim, ive never seen a player have such a shocker, remember guys neagles older (2 yrs i think) and guys like cloke dont find their best untill 25+, clokes our most valuble player IMO, if any team could pick one player from collingwood cloke would be it, very hard to find players like him, he could even play CHB or ruck.

he came from the same draft as buddy and roughy, buddys buddy and is a freak but i dont think he's that far behind roughy if he is behind at all, cloke has more upside than roughhead IMO.

you guys if givin the chance would jump at a swap for jack, i reckon you'd even throw draft picks in as well, we'd let jack go long before we let cloke go, i assure you of that, as i said rusling is the type of player who should be on the list.
Cloke would want to have more "upside". A lot more. Roughie's bigger, quicker, better leap, better hands, and as good a kick. He's kicked more goals, won more finals, and can (sorta) play both ends.
I dunno if Cloke's got more than endurance, a long hoof, and nice hands.

[collingwill]

I reckon most would take Pendlebury in a heartbeat, maybe Swan or Sidebottom, but not many would take Cloke.



Very different player to Roughy, and IMO a long way behind him ATM.



Thanks, but no thanks.


1. i think you'd be very surprised, every team has talented mids (probably except for you guys), most dont have talented fwds though, especialy fwds with clokes credentials.

2. whys he behind roughy? roughys pretty much a FF so goals should come into it, roughys been more consistant agreed but i reckon cloke at his best is better.

3. if you dont think you'd swap neagle for big jack you arnt worth talking too, as i said you'd throw in a draft pick as well, your 1st round draft pick at that and we'd still say no.

[bombersno1]

I'd swap him for all of them, at least the others stay on the field. Bag Cloke all you like but at his best he is AA standard..Neagle struggles to run for 2 minutes!

[collingwill]

Cloke would want to have more "upside". A lot more. Roughie's bigger, quicker, better leap, better hands, and as good a kick. He's kicked more goals, won more finals, and can (sorta) play both ends.
I dunno if Cloke's got more than endurance, a long hoof, and nice hands.

not sure if roughys bigger than cloke, cloke stands near 200cm and is well over 100kg and has a massive tank, sure roughys a better kick, both have good hands, clokes hands go to shit when he's near goal though, pretty much the same as his kicking, nerves get to him i reckon, hopefully as he matures he'll improve in that area.

people forget cloke like roughy are developing players, roughy wasnt anywhere near the player at 20 that cloke was, both will have ups and downs, cloke had off field dramas which we all know about, that dude who smashed him died not long after, im sure that would mess with your head a bit at least, also his knee was giving him trouble, and it still is.

[Slattery_20]

I reckon there's a fair possibility - tho no-one can know - that Cloke hit his peak in his B&F year. From where I'm sitting he hasn't had as good a year again.

[collingwill]

I reckon there's a fair possibility - tho no-one can know - that Cloke hit his peak in his B&F year. From where I'm sitting he hasn't had as good a year again.

well if you look at the majority of power fwds, most dont find their best untill 25, the thing with cloke is that he is a power fwd who has a big tank, power defenders struggle to keep up with him, he's a very hard worker as well, confidence is his main enemy IMO.

he hasnt had a good start to this year, he's on a modified program due to his knee, i dont know whats wrong with it but im guessing surgery isnt an option.

[Slattery_20]

well if you look at the majority of power fwds, most dont find their best untill 25, the thing with cloke is that he is a power fwd who has a big tank, power defenders struggle to keep up with him, he's a very hard worker as well, confidence is his main enemy IMO.

he hasnt had a good start to this year, he's on a modified program due to his knee, i dont know whats wrong with it but im guessing surgery isnt an option.
If you only look at the power forwards who play a long career, yes. Look at that Westhoff kid at Port, had a great year in his first year, aged 20 or whatever, still his best season. Lloyd at about 23 was as good as he got IMHO. Had more tricks later, but lost the pace. So, so, so much can happen. Plenty never fulfill their potential.
Cloke's never going to develop burst speed. He's not going to grow (and I doubt he's 200cm, IIRC he's shorter than Paddy).
If he keeps on keeping on at this level, you've got a great mobile presenting target and that's no bad thing.

What the Pies do better than just about anyone is developing their kids quicker. From memory, just every year there's 2 or 3 or 4 kids who play good footy first year. That doesn't necessarily mean they've got the higher "ceiling" or potential than kids who do nothing in their first year or will be better players long term.

[collingwill]

If you only look at the power forwards who play a long career, yes. Look at that Westhoff kid at Port, had a great year in his first year, aged 20 or whatever, still his best season. Lloyd at about 23 was as good as he got IMHO. Had more tricks later, but lost the pace. So, so, so much can happen. Plenty never fulfill their potential.
Cloke's never going to develop burst speed. He's not going to grow (and I doubt he's 200cm, IIRC he's shorter than Paddy).
If he keeps on keeping on at this level, you've got a great mobile presenting target and that's no bad thing.

What the Pies do better than just about anyone is developing their kids quicker. From memory, just every year there's 2 or 3 or 4 kids who play good footy first year. That doesn't necessarily mean they've got the higher "ceiling" or potential than kids who do nothing in their first year or will be better players long term.

cloke was 197cm when drafted, westhoff has talent IMO, for such a skinny kid to playing FF is a credit to him, but he was always going to be injury prone with such a lite frame.

cloke IMO showed as much if not more than riewoldt as a 20 yr old, more than J. brown as well, people need to get off his back a bit, really he's had the one bad year and their may have been reasons for that, but in saying that his form has never been so bad that we'd consider dropping him.

Age: 22yr 10mth Games: 100 Born: March 5, 1987
Height: 196cm Weight: 103kg Position: Forward

i stand corrected, 196cm when he was drafted, possibly 1 or 2 cm taller now, and heavier.

compared to roughy
Jarryd Roughead
#2 Hawthorn Hawks
Age: 22yr 11mth Games: 102 Born: January 23, 1987
Height: 193cm Weight: 101kg Position: Forward

i may have made a booboo, i got these from the draft website so i thought these were draft weights, i reckon their current though, i doubt neither player wouldve been 100+kgs as a 17 yr old.

[jonesy86]

Of all the talls on Collingwood's list (Cloke, Anthony, Dawes, N.Brown, Reid, L.Brown, Presti). The only one I'd consider is Leigh Brown as he is on the list purely for depth, but even he is more flexible than Neagle.

We'd take him on the VFL list though, as long as he understood he might not play every game if he is hindering the development of other players.