View Full Version : We are ruining Houli
HighettBomber
1 Apr 2010, 11:42
This post is out of frustration at the treatment of Bachar Houli. He has consistently been a good ball winner, has a deadly left foot and runs all day. He is exactly what we need in our midfield. Sure there are some issues with the defensive side of his game and he occasionally sells his team mates into trouble with loopy handballs, but he is not on an island there, they are aspects of his game that should not be too hard to improve and for the life of me I can't see that his I can't see that these negatives outway the positives he brings. It's very hard to learn to kick long and accurately and to be a consistent ball winner.
Statistically he has been in the top echalon of midfielders his age, see stats below for him and Bryce Gibbs:
Ave Disposals - 2007 Gibbs 13, Houli 11. 2008 Gibbs 20, Houli 19. 2009 Gibbs 26, Houli 22
Not saying he is as good, or ever will be as good as Bryce Gibbs. But he obviously has similer ball getting ability. Bachar is a player we should be developing, not banishing to the VFL.
Agreed.
Should've left last year to a team that will actually play him. Best outcome for both partys.
He was unfairly treated last year as well only played a few games and deserved more.
He is very much a confidence player and bringing him back for a game or two is certainly not going to get any better.
I have Prismall in the gun so look out for bias but I would prefer to see Houli running around.
Skeeta Olly
1 Apr 2010, 11:52
Deserves a chance, no doubting that.
He did get unlucky last year, broke into the team, but got injured. :(
Wahooti Fandango
1 Apr 2010, 11:53
He is very much a confidence player and bringing him back for a game or two is certainly not going to get any better.
I have Prismall in the gun so look out for bias but I would prefer to see Houli running around.
Agree. Also remember that Myers has had back/hamstring issues for a while now.
Should've left last year to a team that will actually play him. Best outcome for both partys.
Already will.
Had a few chats with Sheedy already... will be at West Sydney as soon as they are up and going.
been a big wrap for houli the last few years but it baffles me why knights wont play him. like someone said he should have asked to be traded at the end of last year. shame cause the kid can play.
Skeeta Olly
1 Apr 2010, 11:56
Already will.
Had a few chats with Sheedy already... will be at West Sydney as soon as they are up and going.
It's past 12..
Longy413
1 Apr 2010, 12:01
No we're not.
He's just all that good.
I wouldn't have dropped anyone last week for him, except maybe Howlett.
Even then, Lonergan, McVeigh and Lovett-Murray would get a game first.
When he stops front-running and averting contests, I'm sure he'll get a game.
It's past 12..
You'll see. :thumbsu:
I wouldn't have dropped anyone last week for him, except maybe Howlett.
The thing is Houli deserved to play round 1 based on preseason and players like Reimers didn't(he was very good though.)
Slattery_20
1 Apr 2010, 12:16
He'd get hunted at the top level, just like Geelong did in 08 or 09, they know he'll cough it up under pressure. Dunno how much of a ball winner he is. I would guess he has a lot of handball receives and possies in space and for mine, just doesn't do enough with it.
Well behind Hocking and Lonergan, and probably Howlett too.
We don't need 1-way players.
Houli is the most overrated player on our list now
C4[2]Yo`DooR
1 Apr 2010, 12:33
Will most likely be a Kangaroo in 2011.
Yo`DooR;17269241']Will most likely be a Kangaroo in 2011.
how do you figure?
while i doubt he will move interstate, if he is traded it will depend on who gives us the best pick, which will most likely be in the 50s...
i also cant see how we are ruining a player if he just isnt in our best 22, surely its upto the player to make himself available for selection...
kelvin_sheedy
1 Apr 2010, 12:43
Houli in... Davey out. He's given us nothing for 1 year and 1 game now.
Houli might be the unlucky guy that gets pushed out as we develop a better side.
I'd like to see him play more and I think he should have been given first preference over a guy like Howlett. Houli has the runs on the board over 3 years and has performed and trained quite well.
Maybe he could take over Prismal's role?
HighettBomber
1 Apr 2010, 12:52
He could easily take the place of Slattery, Davey, Howlett or Hocking. He deserves a place above all of them on performance during preseason and during 2009.
He could easily take the place of Slattery, Davey, Howlett or Hocking. He deserves a place above all of them on performance during preseason and during 2009.Your opinion.
Ben the Gooner
1 Apr 2010, 13:15
He was unfairly treated last year as well only played a few games and deserved more.
Bollocks.
Do you honestly think they aren't picking their best team?
1. You can't "ruin" a player by playing them in the VFL. If anything they should have more time and space to improve on their basic skills and any areas they need to work on. Did Geelong ruin Prismall? No, he just didn't regularly deserve a game over any of the other players.
2. If Houli was actually as good as people thought he was it wouldn't matter that he has started the year in the VFL as he would push his way into the seniors. Almost all the people who saw the Casey game said he was solid without being anything outstanding and didn't cry out to be selected.
3. I have to agree with whomever said Houli is now the most overrated player on our list.
The Bombs
1 Apr 2010, 13:43
Houli in... Davey out. He's given us nothing for 1 year and 1 game now.
Houli might be the unlucky guy that gets pushed out as we develop a better side.
I'd like to see him play more and I think he should have been given first preference over a guy like Howlett. Houli has the runs on the board over 3 years and has performed and trained quite well.
Maybe he could take over Prismal's role?
I agree with the davey out call, has done nothing to keep getting games like he has.
I agree with the davey out call, has done nothing to keep getting games like he has.I think it's more to do with us not having a better option than Davey earning his place.
Jetta has been mediocre; Quinn not ready; Zaharakis too useful to stay in a pocket all day; same for Winderlich; Lonergan not good enough.
I said before last year's draft that I hoped like hell that Essendon would at the very least rookie list a small crumbing type (not necessarily Indigenous, but it seems to be the craze). We didn't, and this is the result.
Davey's defensive pressure is absolutely amazing, but his offensive output not enough for our sole specialist forward pocket. His two goals in quick succession last week gave me a glimmer of hope that he's going to start producing more. If he kicks 2 goals a game, he'll end up with 40-odd; not even the haters can be dissatisfied with that.
Hopefully Jetta has his confidence issues sorted upon his return.
The other option is Colyer; while a midfielder first, I could see him giving us another option for the next year or two while he develops. He has the pace, clean hands and evasiveness needed, for a start.
kelvin_sheedy
1 Apr 2010, 13:50
Bollocks.
Do you honestly think they aren't picking their best team?
He was a better option than either Quinn or Myers last year. We lost a game against North because we did not select our best side.
The Bombs
1 Apr 2010, 14:00
I think it's more to do with us not having a better option than Davey earning his place.
Jetta has been mediocre; Quinn not ready; Zaharakis too useful to stay in a pocket all day; same for Winderlich; Lonergan not good enough.
I said before last year's draft that I hoped like hell that Essendon would at the very least rookie list a small crumbing type (not necessarily Indigenous, but it seems to be the craze). We didn't, and this is the result.
Davey's defensive pressure is absolutely amazing, but his offensive output not enough for our sole specialist forward pocket. His two goals in quick succession last week gave me a glimmer of hope that he's going to start producing more. If he kicks 2 goals a game, he'll end up with 40-odd; not even the haters can be dissatisfied with that.
Hopefully Jetta has his confidence issues sorted upon his return.
The other option is Colyer; while a midfielder first, I could see him giving us another option for the next year or two while he develops. He has the pace, clean hands and evasiveness needed, for a start.
You make a very fair point, daveys defensive side is great, but if hes not putting away goals that should be his bread and butter then we have to look elsewhere....where that is I do not know.
Davey has become a frustrating player to watch, missing goals from 35 meters out shouldnt be happening.
Slattery_20
1 Apr 2010, 14:15
That's the thing with Davey, he fluffs a couple of chances a week, but creates 3-4 out of speedy chasing. He does enough to keep his spot.
Boucks09
1 Apr 2010, 14:17
He was a better option than either Quinn or Myers last year. We lost a game against North because we did not select our best side.
We lost to North because we played ordinary.
If Bachar was a lock in the best 22 he would be a standout at VFL level. You can always spot a regular AFL player in the VFL because they look a class above in everything that they do. McVeigh, Hurley and NLM looked like it last week. I don't think anybody else did and nobody else would be a 'lock' in our best 22.
Houli whilst getting a bit of the ball, wasn't a stand out. He is improving and I think he will get into the seniors at years end, but he isn't there yet. As has been pointed out, he was given a good run last season but was unlucky getting injured when he did.
When Dyson was pushing for a spot in 2008 he would go back to Bendigo and put together consecutive 35+ possession games. Zaharakis kicks 7, Neagle has kicked 6+ etc. As yet Houli has not had a massive game or consecutive level of high games. He is competing with Dyson IMH but Ricky has good defensive attributes. Bachar doesn't yet.
To suggest he should replace Davey or Slattery shows that people have no idea about team structure. Hocking has runs on the board from last season (would need to play a couple of shockers of which last week was not one) and Howlett has played 1 game.
I agree that Reimers was lucky to get a spot, but we all saw on Friday night why he did.
HighettBomber
1 Apr 2010, 14:30
Davey would probably benefit from running out a game on the ball at Bendigo, he has been getting his hands on it so few times in the seniors it can't be doing much for his confidence. Houli has shown consistently that he can get hold of the pill, he is well ahead of Davey in this regard. Davey obviously dosn't need to get it as much, but 5 times a game is not enough and his kicking has been awful.
I also doubt Houli will improve much without playing under the higher pressure of AFL footy. The upside, if he can improve the weak parts of his game, is huge.
The Bombs
1 Apr 2010, 14:49
Davey would probably benefit from running out a game on the ball at Bendigo, he has been getting his hands on it so few times in the seniors it can't be doing much for his confidence. Houli has shown consistently that he can get hold of the pill, he is well ahead of Davey in this regard. Davey obviously dosn't need to get it as much, but 5 times a game is not enough and his kicking has been awful.
I also doubt Houli will improve much without playing under the higher pressure of AFL footy. The upside, if he can improve the weak parts of his game, is huge.
Exactly.
S20
I think 3-4 chances coming from his defensive work is a bit of a stretch, maybe 1, maximum 2. He is not damaging enough, and yes i do think a run in the 2's might be what he needs to get the feel of kicking the ball in the pressure of a game. Ive lost faith in him when i see him going for goal, when he kicks one its a bonus.
I suppose there is no one to replace him
We lost to North because we played ordinary.
If Bachar was a lock in the best 22 he would be a standout at VFL level. You can always spot a regular AFL player in the VFL because they look a class above in everything that they do. McVeigh, Hurley and NLM looked like it last week. I don't think anybody else did and nobody else would be a 'lock' in our best 22.
Houli whilst getting a bit of the ball, wasn't a stand out. He is improving and I think he will get into the seniors at years end, but he isn't there yet. As has been pointed out, he was given a good run last season but was unlucky getting injured when he did.
When Dyson was pushing for a spot in 2008 he would go back to Bendigo and put together consecutive 35+ possession games. Zaharakis kicks 7, Neagle has kicked 6+ etc. As yet Houli has not had a massive game or consecutive level of high games. He is competing with Dyson IMH but Ricky has good defensive attributes. Bachar doesn't yet.
To suggest he should replace Davey or Slattery shows that people have no idea about team structure. Hocking has runs on the board from last season (would need to play a couple of shockers of which last week was not one) and Howlett has played 1 game.
I agree that Reimers was lucky to get a spot, but we all saw on Friday night why he did.
I am unsure that Houli has been given the same opportunities as other players.
You may recall that he played 3 consecutive games ( played well ) missed a week with a virus and then resumed through Bendigo. It wouldn't have done much for his confidence.
He does need extended time in the Seniors to see if he is part of the future.
kelvin_sheedy
1 Apr 2010, 15:05
When Dyson was pushing for a spot in 2008 he would go back to Bendigo and put together consecutive 35+ possession games. Zaharakis kicks 7, Neagle has kicked 6+ etc. As yet Houli has not had a massive game or consecutive level of high games. He is competing with Dyson IMH but Ricky has good defensive attributes. Bachar doesn't yet.
This renders your argument useless.
Ricky never went back and got 35+ touches.. never, ever. He was ok without sticking right out. In fact everyone was disappointed in his performances at all levels and had him earmarked for delisting.
Neagle has never kicked 6+ at VFL level. He has looked worse at VFL level because the delivery at VFL level is shocking.
Houli performances at VFL level over the past 3 years have been better as a whole than most.
We lost to North because we picked 20 players that could play adn then we added Myers and Quinn while leaving NLM and Houli playing for Bendigo. It was a crazy decision and we have moved on because we all knew it was a mistake.
Damon_3388
1 Apr 2010, 15:08
Statistically he has been in the top echalon of midfielders his age, see stats below for him and Bryce Gibbs:
Ave Disposals - 2007 Gibbs 13, Houli 11. 2008 Gibbs 20, Houli 19. 2009 Gibbs 26, Houli 22
Obviously the Champion Data Player Ranking isn't everything, but by comparison:
Bachar Houli
2007 - 34 (11.00 disposals per game over 4 games)
2008 - 84 (19.00 disposals per game over 10 games)
2009 - 74 (22.43 disposals per game over 7 games)
Career - 64 (18.62 disposals per game over 21 games between 2007-2009)
Bryce Gibbs
2007 - 63 (13.00 disposals per game over 22 games)
2008 - 93 (20.71 disposals per game over 21 games)
2009 - 107 (26.74 disposals per game over 23 games)
Career - 88 (20.24 disposals per game over 66 games between 2007-2009)
HighettBomber
1 Apr 2010, 15:14
Obviously the Champion Data Player Ranking isn't everything, but by comparison:
Bachar Houli (18.62 disposals per game over 21 games between 2007-2009)
2007 - 34 (11.00 disposals per game over 4 games)
2008 - 84 (19.00 disposals per game over 10 games)
2009 - 74 (22.43 disposals per game over 7 games)
Bryce Gibbs (20.24 disposals per game over 66 games between 2007-2009)
2007 - 63 (13.00 disposals per game over 22 games)
2008 - 93 (20.71 disposals per game over 21 games)
2009 - 107 (26.74 disposals per game over 23 games)
There is no claim that he is as good as Gibbs. He obviously needs to improve his decision making, but he is on par in terms of ball winning ability. The point is simply that we have something to work with, nothing more.
Mad Bomber Sean
1 Apr 2010, 16:15
With Davey giving sweet FA - It might be time to give him some VFL action & give Houli a crack Based on his preseason form he was more worthy of a R1 spot than a few others - Reimers included. That said, Reimers played a cracker last week.
fishguts
1 Apr 2010, 16:25
We lost to North because we picked 20 players that could play adn then we added Myers and Quinn while leaving NLM and Houli playing for Bendigo. It was a crazy decision and we have moved on because we all knew it was a mistake.
No, we lost to North because as a team we could not hit targets all day. Don't say that those 20 players had good games and Myers and Quinn lost that game single handidly...
Bombers36
1 Apr 2010, 16:29
Why is evryone bashing basher houli when we have the likes of Gumby running around in our team???
Damon_3388
1 Apr 2010, 16:44
There is no claim that he is as good as Gibbs. He obviously needs to improve his decision making, but he is on par in terms of ball winning ability. The point is simply that we have something to work with, nothing more.
Jake King has ball winning ability too (17.51 disposals per game and 5.97 contested possessions per game over 41 games), but most people wouldn't want him in their side. While he's still quite young, and I agree there's something there to work with, I don't think Houli will ever be at Gibbs' level.
Houli can win the ball, is a good kick, and has provided decent rebound from the back 50 in games he's played, but not much else from what I've seen. He has a total of one goal assist in his career so far, just 7 goals, and isn't a noteable tackler, so he'd have to improve both his playmaking ability and defensive workrate to warrant a place in Essendon's midfield going forward. Hopefully for him and Essendon he can have an injury-free run this year, so he can get the most out of his potential.
Why is evryone bashing basher houli when we have the likes of Gumby running around in our team???
They wouldn't be competing for the same spot in the side, and I would have thought after such a long wait (two and a half years without a Senior game), Essendon supporters would be willing to be patient with Gumbleton's development now that he's actually on the park.
morebeer
1 Apr 2010, 17:37
Houli is okay, shows a bit of potential. Has a few holes like most others and doe not seem to be a real coaches favorite.
Im pretty meh about him TBH and dont really understand the passion for him.
whats_at_stake
1 Apr 2010, 17:44
I think an issue is he is not top draft pick- hence Myers will be given every oppurtunity whilst Houli will have to excel in limited oppurtunities. I really hope I see him in the team in the next few weeks. Knights said in a press conference hopefully players like Myers, Houli etc. get a chance in the next few games.
For those who said he has talked to Sheedy. Aprils fools or real?
I think an issue is he is not top draft pick- hence Myers will be given every oppurtunity whilst Houli will have to excel in limited oppurtunities. I really hope I see him in the team in the next few weeks. Knights said in a press conference hopefully players like Myers, Houli etc. get a chance in the next few games.
For those who said he has talked to Sheedy. Aprils fools or real?
Doubt it. Howlett and Quinn last year played before him and they weren't even in the main draft.
Houli was sent back to VFL level to work on things.
Whilst he did go back and work on areas he needed to improve on (most notably his one way running), other players returned and overtook him for that small rebounding defender position.
Or knights could just not like the guy, he (Knights) did play atkinson ahead of him towards the end of the year :D
I have spoken to Ant555 about this, and Houli was a ball magnet in his younger days, the standout player who was left to do his own accord, but now it seems that having to be a team player is not his game and this may actually be why he is not being picked.
Leave your man and hope to get the ball? or run to position and drag your opponent out of a dangerous space? which would Houli pick?
SirJimi05
1 Apr 2010, 18:45
Already will.
Had a few chats with Sheedy already... will be at West Sydney as soon as they are up and going.
I know his brother quite well and he hasn't mentioned this in any of our recent chats about Bachar and the Dons. I will be sure to ask him next time i see him.
Daytripper
1 Apr 2010, 18:45
If he's going to replace anyone it will be Dempsey as the attacking weapon off 1/2 back. Don't know why people are potting Alwyn. Kicked 2 last week and created a few with his pressure. He is a must have in the side.
SirJimi05
1 Apr 2010, 18:47
I have spoken to Ant555 about this, and Houli was a ball magnet in his younger days, the standout player who was left to do his own accord, but now it seems that having to be a team player is not his game and this may actually be why he is not being picked.
Leave your man and hope to get the ball? or run to position and drag your opponent out of a dangerous space? which would Houli pick?
Which would James Hird pick? I'm sick of all this he is not defensive enough rubbish.
If i were Bashar i would chase a better opportunity elsewhere. He should be playing senior football.
SirJimi05
1 Apr 2010, 18:50
If he's going to replace anyone it will be Dempsey as the attacking weapon off 1/2 back. Don't know why people are potting Alwyn. Kicked 2 last week and created a few with his pressure. He is a must have in the side.
Dempsey is less defensive than Houli and is a worse kick. You watch how often this year that Dempseys opponents get in the best players for the opposition. Not to mention that he always takes the shittest forward.
Which would James Hird pick? I'm sick of all this he is not defensive enough rubbish.
If i were Bashar i would chase a better opportunity elsewhere. He should be playing senior football.
He was sent back to the VFL to work on parts of his game SirJimi05, but he has obviously not done enough to warrant selection. James Hird was a forward in his early years, so he would lead to the ball, then if he did not pick it up he would move out of space.
A good indictation of a true team player.
I now Houli can play, I personally think he is being played out of position, but we seem to have enough of these HFF type midfielders on our list at the moment. He was sent back to do a sweeping role but is obviously not good enough to earn a senior gig at the moment. Give him this year and I will reassess.
Ben the Gooner
1 Apr 2010, 20:21
Which would James Hird pick? I'm sick of all this he is not defensive enough rubbish.
If i were Bashar i would chase a better opportunity elsewhere. He should be playing senior football.
That should be a clause in Godwin's Law.
lemon chicken
1 Apr 2010, 20:47
Part of it is he fails to have that standout game when he needs to or when a spot is up for grabs, but his consistency should be starting to pay off more now than what it is. Been reports of personality clashes with a few senior players (dunno if true) could be a factor. I dont have a problem with his defensive side, if he played a bit more direct he should be best 22.
Colin D'Cops
1 Apr 2010, 21:04
Houli has been very stiff to not play more games than he has thus far, certainly.
His kicking skills are underrated and he can read the play like not many can at the club. The thing that really gets many people frustrated, and also staff at the club; is that when the ball is there to be won, he does not always go in and get it. I have seen him many times go in and get it, but I have also see him flinch a fair few also.
Players like Hocking & Howlett are two players on the fringe of selection, but because they put their body on the line all the time on a consistant basis; they'll always get games ahead of him. They are not as flashy, but you know what you're gonna get every single week.
He is an outside player, it doesn't take much effort to notice that. But because players such as Demspey, Prismall, Dyson & Stanton keep on performing; it's a tough role to get a regular gig in. He will never be a match-winner, but with silky skills and a good footy brain he deserves more of a chance; even if that means switching clubs. Western Sydney is a possibility with Sheeds, and if a good offer was to be offered to him; I would encourage Bachar to take it.
Colin D'Cops
1 Apr 2010, 21:10
Houli is the most overrated player on our list now
So because posters are pointing out his strengths he is overrated?
Perhaps they could also mention his negatives, but you don't expect premium quality on discussion forums. You should know that Smythy.
Donakebab
1 Apr 2010, 21:59
We lost to North because we picked 20 players that could play adn then we added Myers and Quinn while leaving NLM and Houli playing for Bendigo. It was a crazy decision and we have moved on because we all knew it was a mistake.
Don't want to derail this thread, but your hatred of Myers knows no bounds. He didn't even play round 4 last year, Jay Nash did. Plenty of players had shockers that day, who's to say Houli wouldn't have too? Keep your bullshit agenda out of this argument.
kelvin_sheedy
1 Apr 2010, 22:37
Don't want to derail this thread, but your hatred of Myers knows no bounds. He didn't even play round 4 last year, Jay Nash did. Plenty of players had shockers that day, who's to say Houli wouldn't have too? Keep your bullshit agenda out of this argument.
Myers, Nash, Skipworth.... what does it matter. Neither deserved games ahead of Houli or NLM but were picked at points in time last year.
Luckily for NLM who got a spot back and was one of our best in the second half of the season. Houli got injured and missed out. Skipworth is now playing VFL after a stellar season of AFL football. Quinn is still trying to learn the game at VFL level and hasn't had a look in at all this year. Myers is still battling away.
Bottom line is Houli deserved games in front of Myers, Nash, Skipworth, Quinn and even guys like Dyson and Davey who were diabolical the first month or so. It's the point I'm trying to make and the theme of the thread and it doesn't really matter which particular player I put up for comparison.
I think it's pretty clear and don't let the name Myers cloud the argument.
reincarnated
1 Apr 2010, 22:55
Spot on Kelvin...
What bemuses me is that some people keep saying if he is good enough he will be picked. The bloody thread is about he is more than good enough and he is not being picked...and his VFL performances in the last two years have been exceptional, compared to lot of others who are getting selected.
I reckon there is ego of recruitment staff and coaches involved when selecting teams. Players drafted in the first rounds get games they don't deserve at times, purely because they are trying to get the egg off their face for recruiting certain players. So they are getting more of a chance to make it. (Myers and Gumbleton prime example...)
The way the squad has been named, and listening to Knights' interview, Zaka and Williams will be retained...Out of Reimers, Howlett and Neagle, it's a guarantee that one of them will be dropped, maybe two.
There is no way...I repeat no way Neagle should be dropped ahead of Gumbleton.
Longy413
1 Apr 2010, 23:02
Perhaps with a stronger Bendigo squad this year, they'll win more games and as a result Houli's form will improve.
Ok, well Houli is obviously good enough, but him not having exceptional games at Bendigo and screaming out "PICK ME" may also have something to do with it.
You mention him being good enough yet not being picked. Happens at every club. Brodie Moles Geelong VFL B&F winner was one who has been stiff to miss out on senior action. Good enough, but no role in the team he is able to play.
Just the way the cookie crumbles really.
Ok, well Houli is obviously good enough, but him not having exceptional games at Bendigo and screaming out "PICK ME" may also have something to do with it.
You mention him being good enough yet not being picked. Happens at every club. Brodie Moles Geelong VFL B&F winner was one who has been stiff to miss out on senior action. Good enough, but no role in the team he is able to play.
Just the way the cookie crumbles really.
In a perfect world I want players to dominate in the VFL before earning AFL selection but the reality is that clubs select players on potential - not because of outstanding performances at VFL level.
TheDon35
2 Apr 2010, 09:07
Myers, Nash, Skipworth.... what does it matter. Neither deserved games ahead of Houli or NLM but were picked at points in time last year.
Luckily for NLM who got a spot back and was one of our best in the second half of the season. Houli got injured and missed out. Skipworth is now playing VFL after a stellar season of AFL football. Quinn is still trying to learn the game at VFL level and hasn't had a look in at all this year. Myers is still battling away.
Bottom line is Houli deserved games in front of Myers, Nash, Skipworth, Quinn and even guys like Dyson and Davey who were diabolical the first month or so. It's the point I'm trying to make and the theme of the thread and it doesn't really matter which particular player I put up for comparison.
I think it's pretty clear and don't let the name Myers cloud the argument.
Agree. And for those suggesting that he get a game when he learns to put his body in and stops front running ... It seems to have been ok for Dyson, Davey, Reimers, Skipworth.
Too many positive's too his game for him not to be persisted with. Dyson was lucky to come in during a period where we were a joke of a team and subsequently be given far more opportunity than he deserved. Despite this, i'd still rather Houli in the side as it develops toward a premiership contender.
mark1881
2 Apr 2010, 09:29
Agree. And for those suggesting that he get a game when he learns to put his body in and stops front running ... It seems to have been ok for Dyson, Davey, Reimers, Skipworth.
Dyson puts his body on the line and going by Davey's game last week, he seems to have his confidence back in doing so too.
Houli will get his chance
Good to see some heated discussion, I for one agree he should be playing or at least be one of the first in line for recall.
I honestly don’t know how Myers has been selected ahead of him at this stage for the extended bench and some other players like Hocking, Prismall are getting preferential treatment for really not showing anymore than what Houli has.
Its baffling why a player who rightly or wrongly was banished after a poor performance in round 1 last year against Port, worked hard came back and played very well down back against Haw, Rich, St K, Geel and Adel before missing through injury for 1 week could not get back into a choking side for 8 weeks til round 19 and now not on the radar at all come 2010.
ghostdog
2 Apr 2010, 11:10
The thing is Houli deserved to play round 1 based on preseason and players like Reimers didn't(he was very good though.)
This is what it comes down to. The pre-season reports on Houli's performances have been terrific while Reimers's were ordinary. By all reports Houli is much more fit than Reimers. Regardless of Reimers's Round 1 performance the principle remains. On pre-season form and fitness Houli deserved selection. The selection of Reimers reeked of bias. His selection turned out to be good. We'll never know if the selection of Houli could have turned out to be better, but at the very least it would have been wiser and fairer.
ghostdog
2 Apr 2010, 11:13
Houli is the most overrated player on our list now
I reckon lot of people will be thinking either Neagle or Gumbleton if they don't show something this weekend.
Perhaps with a stronger Bendigo squad this year, they'll win more games and as a result Houli's form will improve.
For Houli's case, I hope your right. But, he's never dominated at that level whereas others (Reimers and Hocking) have done so.
ghostdog
2 Apr 2010, 11:29
Houli in... Davey out. He's given us nothing for 1 year and 1 game now.
Houli might be the unlucky guy that gets pushed out as we develop a better side.
I'd like to see him play more and I think he should have been given first preference over a guy like Howlett. Houli has the runs on the board over 3 years and has performed and trained quite well.
Maybe he could take over Prismal's role?
...while I think Houli's copping a raw deal I disagree with this (albeit after one round this year, but it is a new year). Davey sharked two goals last week against Geelong, which is more than he has contributed in a long time. If he's going to play forward pocket I want those two or three goals week in week out.
ghostdog
2 Apr 2010, 11:33
I think it's more to do with us not having a better option than Davey earning his place.
Jetta has been mediocre; Quinn not ready; Zaharakis too useful to stay in a pocket all day; same for Winderlich; Lonergan not good enough.
I said before last year's draft that I hoped like hell that Essendon would at the very least rookie list a small crumbing type (not necessarily Indigenous, but it seems to be the craze). We didn't, and this is the result.
Davey's defensive pressure is absolutely amazing, but his offensive output not enough for our sole specialist forward pocket. His two goals in quick succession last week gave me a glimmer of hope that he's going to start producing more. If he kicks 2 goals a game, he'll end up with 40-odd; not even the haters can be dissatisfied with that.
Hopefully Jetta has his confidence issues sorted upon his return.
The other option is Colyer; while a midfielder first, I could see him giving us another option for the next year or two while he develops. He has the pace, clean hands and evasiveness needed, for a start.
Yeah I agree. I wonder if even Howlett could play forward pocket. He seemed sharp last week.
james_omahoney
2 Apr 2010, 11:36
I'm not a huge fan of Houli. Bit too small and weak for my liking. Not slick enough for his lack of presence. Deserves a game somewhere though.
BomberDog
2 Apr 2010, 16:32
In mid-2009, Essendon brought back all of Welsh, McVeigh, Prismall as 'automatic' ins. Combined with Watson, we suddenly had a rather plodding midfield, without the pace to close down players defensively, vulnerable to late game fade-outs (perhaps due to the lack of fitness base).
If this develops again in 2010, Houli could become important as a midfield rotation that can keep going all day (like Stanton, Dyson).
I like his endeavour on the field, his skills are pretty good, just needs to work on his decision-making (which will probably come with experience). Would be disappointed if we lost him from the club...
davydenko
2 Apr 2010, 16:36
Doubt it. Howlett and Quinn last year played before him and they weren't even in the main draft.
You do realise that we only just picked Howlett up in the rookie draft so I doubt that Howlett played before Houli last year. :p
You do realise that we only just picked Howlett up in the rookie draft so I doubt that Howlett played before Houli last year. :p
:p
Yeah I know, I meant Quinn last year and Howlett this year.
redandblackbomba
3 Apr 2010, 07:46
This post is out of frustration at the treatment of Bachar Houli. He has consistently been a good ball winner, has a deadly left foot and runs all day. He is exactly what we need in our midfield. Sure there are some issues with the defensive side of his game and he occasionally sells his team mates into trouble with loopy handballs, but he is not on an island there, they are aspects of his game that should not be too hard to improve and for the life of me I can't see that his I can't see that these negatives outway the positives he brings. It's very hard to learn to kick long and accurately and to be a consistent ball winner.
Statistically he has been in the top echalon of midfielders his age, see stats below for him and Bryce Gibbs:
Ave Disposals - 2007 Gibbs 13, Houli 11. 2008 Gibbs 20, Houli 19. 2009 Gibbs 26, Houli 22
Not saying he is as good, or ever will be as good as Bryce Gibbs. But he obviously has similer ball getting ability. Bachar is a player we should be developing, not banishing to the VFL.
You make a strong argument of why Houli should be getting a game. I can help you with the answer, he doesn't put his head over the footy and commit when needed this is the view by some at EFC. With regards to Gibbs nearly all Gibbs possessions go further than 10 metres most of Houli don't, Gibbs creates and brimgs teamates into the play Houli doesn't statistics are easy to manipulate.
SirJimi05
3 Apr 2010, 08:07
he doesn't put his head over the footy and commit when needed this is the view by some at EFC.
Yes he does. Or atleast he did when he worked his way into the team last season.
With regards to Gibbs nearly all Gibbs possessions go further than 10 metres most of Houli don't,
In other words he handalls more than he kicks? Most of his kicks are long. I know for a fact that he suffers from confidence issues and the way he is being treated/shunted by the club would not be helping. He is a sublime kick of the football and has the potential to be extremely damaging if given an extended opportunity.
Gibbs creates and brimgs teamates into the play Houli doesn't statistics are easy to manipulate.
Houli played as a small lock down defender last season so his role was not to bring other teamates into the game.
SirJimi05
3 Apr 2010, 08:12
I'm not a huge fan of Houli. Bit too small and weak for my liking. Not slick enough for his lack of presence. Deserves a game somewhere though.
What do you mean he is small? He is an absolute unit. The biggest midfielder at the club. Interestingly, Howlett was brought in because he has a mature body yet Houli has him covered.
What do you mean he is small? He is an absolute unit. The biggest midfielder at the club.Watson?Interestingly, Howlett was brought in because he has a mature body yet Houli has him covered.He may weigh more on the scales, but - at least on last week's game - Howlett won't be pushed off the ball very easily, wheras Houli's strength is hardly a, well, strength to his game.
http://www.fordite.com/Images/Fordite.com%20pics/Copy%20of%20gollum.jpg
WE RUINS IT!!!!!!#$@11
^^ Bachar Houli fan boys
SirJimi05
3 Apr 2010, 09:45
Watson?He may weigh more on the scales, but - at least on last week's game - Howlett won't be pushed off the ball very easily, wheras Houli's strength is hardly a, well, strength to his game.
Yeah sorry i was more refering to the gus of similiar height (around 180-185cm). Watson is basically KP height so he is naturally going to be a bigger boy. My point was that Houli is far from being too small. There are many smaller guys getting serious game time.
I thought Houli's body work was better when he played last season. I recall him putting his head over the ball against the big Geelong boys and i can't recall him getting pushed around too easily.
People keep going on about how he is not defensive enough, not strong enough, gets pushed off the ball etc. Why can't people just acknowledge that he is an outside midfielder and compare apples with apples? I don't hear anybody saying that Davey shouldn't get a gig because he gets thrown around like a rag doll and always tries to avoid contact.
As a pure outside midfielder (which he is) is would be picking him in our best 22 and giving him an extended run to prove himself.
People keep going on about how he is not defensive enough, not strong enough, gets pushed off the ball etc. Why can't people just acknowledge that he is an outside midfielder and compare apples with apples? I don't hear anybody saying that Davey shouldn't get a gig because he gets thrown around like a rag doll and always tries to avoid contact.
As a pure outside midfielder (which he is) is would be picking him in our best 22 and giving him an extended run to prove himself.Yep, agree with you there.
Have been calling for him to be played either on a wing or HFF for about two years now. Let him run to space, find plenty of the ball, and kick long to our forwards; if he played on a wing, I think we'd see many games like this:
25 touches
5 marks
10 I50s
1 goal
You cannot ruin a player by playing him in VFL. Few years ago ppl were saying we ruined monfries because we played him to early at afl and should have developed as a mid in vfl. Time will show if he has what it takes to make it.
P.s Ive always been a fan of houli and bewilders me as to why he hasnt got given more of a crack at afl however i feel the coaching staff knows best.
TheDon35
3 Apr 2010, 11:52
In mid-2009, Essendon brought back all of Welsh, McVeigh, Prismall as 'automatic' ins. Combined with Watson, we suddenly had a rather plodding midfield, without the pace to close down players defensively, vulnerable to late game fade-outs (perhaps due to the lack of fitness base).
Good point. I reckon the pace of our side has been a bit of a myth for a while now. Look at the core of the midfield. Watson, Stanton, Prismall, McVeigh, Welsh, Hocking. all far from AFL quick.
The most important element of leg speed is it's benefits working defensively, it's over rated when you're talking about being in possession and taking it from one end of the ground to the other. From an offensive midfield perspective, speed of hand, mind and execution is far more effective than someone that can run quick - see Ricky Dyson.
james_omahoney
3 Apr 2010, 12:09
Yeah sorry i was more refering to the gus of similiar height (around 180-185cm). Watson is basically KP height so he is naturally going to be a bigger boy. My point was that Houli is far from being too small. There are many smaller guys getting serious game time.
I thought Houli's body work was better when he played last season. I recall him putting his head over the ball against the big Geelong boys and i can't recall him getting pushed around too easily.
People keep going on about how he is not defensive enough, not strong enough, gets pushed off the ball etc. Why can't people just acknowledge that he is an outside midfielder and compare apples with apples? I don't hear anybody saying that Davey shouldn't get a gig because he gets thrown around like a rag doll and always tries to avoid contact.
As a pure outside midfielder (which he is) is would be picking him in our best 22 and giving him an extended run to prove himself.
You're right. I just meant, for mine, that he 'seems' small and weak when I've watched him. He just hasn't got much of a presence, doesn't go hard enough when the ball's there to be won. Purely subjective view. Just not a fan.
The difference between Davey and Houli is that Houli has often played a rotating defender/midfielder and the lack of defensive pressure in these areas is what made us look a bit ridiculous at times. Obviously he's not the only offender though.
I think what probably stands out for me the most is that there hasn't been one game yet where I've seen Houli take the game by the scruff of the neck and say "f... this, i'm gonna do something special". You could name almost every other player who has played as many games as Houli and remember them having those games/moments, but is Houli the sort of player to impose himself on a game? I just don't know. Would an opposition coach ever say to Houli's opponent "stick close to him, he can be dangerous"? Would an opposition player ever fear him?
The Donners
3 Apr 2010, 12:35
Do you honestly think they aren't picking their best team?
Yes. Been happening since Knights took over. I'm just saying...
Yes. Been happening since Knights took over. I'm just saying...It's been happening long before that.
Any time (post-2001) Henneman was picked; any time Bolton was picked (with the exception of Sydney games); any time Ty Zantuck was picked; the time Joel Reynolds was selected... to play on Brendan Fevola.
Not a Sheedy hater, not a Knights lover. But the fact is it's been happening for a long time, and it does at nearly every club at some point.
Ben the Gooner
3 Apr 2010, 12:53
Yes. Been happening since Knights took over. I'm just saying...
I s'pose you're better placed to judge Slats than Knighter is then.
The Donners
3 Apr 2010, 13:13
I s'pose you're better placed to judge Slats than Knighter is then.
It's not about Slattery and I wasn't insinuating it was he who does not belong in the best team each week but, perhaps the coach is too close to the player. In my opinion, when you pick teams that are not the best possible, winning the game is not the number priority. I don't think that's "shock horror".
You asked someone whether they felt the best team wasn't picked or words to that effect and I responded. Quinn playing in the EF is the most obvious example of not picking your best 22, in fact, any game that Quinn has played in. Howlett and Hocking are 2 players I wouldn't have above Lonergan or Houli, more than that, I don't think they're in the latter players' league yet but that is subjective - i.e. my opinion.
People seriously think that Houli deserves a game over Prismall?
Boucks09
3 Apr 2010, 18:36
It's not about Slattery and I wasn't insinuating it was he who does not belong in the best team each week but, perhaps the coach is too close to the player. In my opinion, when you pick teams that are not the best possible, winning the game is not the number priority. I don't think that's "shock horror".
You asked someone whether they felt the best team wasn't picked or words to that effect and I responded. Quinn playing in the EF is the most obvious example of not picking your best 22, in fact, any game that Quinn has played in. Howlett and Hocking are 2 players I wouldn't have above Lonergan or Houli, more than that, I don't think they're in the latter players' league yet but that is subjective - i.e. my opinion.
I think injury and suspensions had a bit to do with that. With a bit of luck Quinn should've kicked 3 goals which is a hell of a lot better than the majority of our players in that game. He certainly deserved his spot more than Atkinson who gave away 7 goals directly in that game through complete incompetence. (I know it was 7 because I was there and counting).
Houli reminds me of Jay Nash at the moment. A player that loves to win his own ball and can use it well, but has very limited defensive abilities. That type of player is useless in an up and coming side. I still think he can improve and he is getting better and improving his defensive skills.
Houli deserves a spot over many fringe players.
Houli has the potential to be a gun compared to some guys who will always be plodders.
His defensive side needs work but so did Dal Santo's... he has a good engine and is now more accountable on the run back.
Houli is an attacking weapon and does not like/suit the sweeping role Knights insists on him playing in the seniors.
Knights dislikes Houli and dislikes Houli's attitude and I personally heard him (whilst talking to another member of Essendon Staff) make a comment about Houli's religion so I have my thoughts on that.
Best case scenario for Houli will be to move to another club and become a gun wingmen/HFF/HBF.
Meanwhile we can sit and watch myers rip it open.. ;)
Ludwig van Bertstare
3 Apr 2010, 23:29
Maybe Kevin Egan doesn't like Muslims?
bipolarbeaR
4 Apr 2010, 00:01
90% of clubs would have pumped games into him.
Not Essendon though.
So if Knights does not like Houli, It would be fair to say that we shall be seeing him in GC colors come the start of season 2011.
So if Knights does not like Houli, It would be fair to say that we shall be seeing him in GC colors come the start of season 2011?
james_omahoney
4 Apr 2010, 12:15
Knights dislikes Houli and dislikes Houli's attitude and I personally heard him (whilst talking to another member of Essendon Staff) make a comment about Houli's religion so I have my thoughts on that.
What did Knights say?
StealthBomber
4 Apr 2010, 12:24
Houli deserves a spot over many fringe players.
Houli has the potential to be a gun compared to some guys who will always be plodders.
His defensive side needs work but so did Dal Santo's... he has a good engine and is now more accountable on the run back.
Houli is an attacking weapon and does not like/suit the sweeping role Knights insists on him playing in the seniors.
Knights dislikes Houli and dislikes Houli's attitude and I personally heard him (whilst talking to another member of Essendon Staff) make a comment about Houli's religion so I have my thoughts on that.
Best case scenario for Houli will be to move to another club and become a gun wingmen/HFF/HBF.
Meanwhile we can sit and watch myers rip it open.. ;)
Big call on that mate... Care to elaborate a little?
Im a big Houli fan and I too would like to see him get a game. Its quite frustrating to be picked for a string of games in 09', see consistent improvement and yet be completely overlooked. Makes you wonder if Knighter has his favourites...
I also think he's being played out of his position as a defender, albeit who's to say he cant be groomed for another. I think he would be suited to a wing where his pace, skills, and ability to find the ball will contribute immensly to the sides structure and chances of winning. I noticed that Dempsey played some parts of last weeks game on the wing....and Hocking up back. Why cant we have Houli playing a wing (better kick than Dempsey, prob not as defensive), Dempsey back and Hocking rotating off the bench?
Knights dislikes Houli and dislikes Houli's attitude and I personally heard him (whilst talking to another member of Essendon Staff) make a comment about Houli's religion so I have my thoughts on that.
If that's true then that is very poor form by Knighter...
swansfan51
4 Apr 2010, 16:56
Would love this guy at the Swans, we have a dozen other players who can rip a pack apart and apply defensive pressure, but could really use another couple of attacking weapons. Who knows, Kirk might even smack him around the head until he learns how to chase. I've been very surprised at how few opportunities he's been given at the Bombers
People seriously think that Houli deserves a game over Prismall?
houli should b gettin a game over Slattery every day of the week
wat has Slattery done in the back that houli hasnt
I saw Houli just prior to the end of today's game in a carpark about 800 metres from the ground. He was on his mobile phone, probably organising a trade!
I also can't understand why we have persisted with Slattery despite his obvious failings, and not Houli.
Frothies Mcveigh
4 Apr 2010, 21:08
Slattery was made a fool of today by Ballantyne, but the coaching staff really rate him so he's going to keep getting a game over houli.
Pevers-Legend
5 Apr 2010, 01:02
Hopefully we just continue to be thrashed
You are not a real fan. No fan rejoices in losing.
Bugger Off
Oh, and I dared challenge the club so I'm not a real supporter? Real mature response and the only response to any criticism. I am a real supporter and if you saw me after a loss you would know it hurts, hurts really bad but in order to stop that hurt we have to get on the right track. YOU think that every richmond support who dared to question Terry Wallace wasn't a true supporter? Or do you really think they would have EVER won a flag with that same program? We are approaching 10 years without a flag and I think every TRUE supporter wants their club to win. Feel free to disagree with my opinion, I WELCOME the debate, but don't accuse someone of not being a true supporter just because they don't share your optimism about the future of the club, coach or list!!
Pevers-Legend
5 Apr 2010, 01:16
Oh, and I dared challenge the club so I'm not a real supporter? Real mature response and the only response to any criticism. I am a real supporter and if you saw me after a loss you would know it hurts, hurts really bad but in order to stop that hurt we have to get on the right track. YOU think that every richmond support who dared to question Terry Wallace wasn't a true supporter? Or do you really think they would have EVER won a flag with that same program? We are approaching 10 years without a flag and I think every TRUE supporter wants their club to win. Feel free to disagree with my opinion, I WELCOME the debate, but don't accuse someone of not being a true supporter just because they don't share your optimism about the future of the club, coach or list!!
Blah blah blah. You said you would enjoy us losing. How is that challenging the club?
No fan enjoys us losing or did you not say that?
I was glad Sheedy went - but I hated, absolutely hated that it took such a pathetic year like 2006 to end him. (2007 he was just a dead man walking).
Blah blah blah. You said you would enjoy us losing. How is that challenging the club?
No fan enjoys us losing or did you not say that?
I was glad Sheedy went - but I hated, absolutely hated that it took such a pathetic year like 2006 to end him. (2007 he was just a dead man walking).
I didn't say I would ENJOY it.. you think this sounds like someone ENJOYING this experience?? You think I would be this angry/upset/frustrated if I enjoyed getting belted by FREO?!!!!
I am hating every single second of our dismal start to the year, and I hated the elim final last year and every one of the losses "we've had to have" for the past 9 seaons...
Hoping for change IS NOT the same as enjoying it. Unfortunately if we continue to scrap into the 8 or get close.. then we all rock up and do it again next year and keep thinking we are on the right track. Unfortunately it takes years like 2006/2007 to make the board/club and supporters like you to demand change.
I sincerely HOPE I am proved wrong.. I would LOVE my bombers to keep climbing up the ladder and to reach ultimate success, nothing I would enjoy more. And if Knights takes us to that flag I will be the first one to eat humble pie and bow down to you and say.. you were right, you were right.. until then I reserve the right to think he is the wrong man for the job.