View Full Version : Just kick the bloody thing
Daytripper
26 Apr 2010, 07:37
I know its a cliche and football has evolved in the last 30 years but we still need to use the ball by foot.
I'm sick of seeing us handball to guys standing still or to team-mates in worse positions. What is the point of it ?
We've recruited specifically talls the last 5 years but what good is it if we won't kick it to them in a contest. I'd rather turn it over in our forward line than the middle if it comes to that.
Our game is horrible to watch now. We don't have the players who are in form to play this handball-keep possession game.
Lets we play to our strengths and start looking for Gumbleton/Hurley/Neagle/Williams up forward who can use their height and strength.
Knights has to start being a bit more flexible with the gameplan because if things don't change soon we are heading for a bottom two finish and his career as a coach will be finished.
stillGOTmyBEANIE
26 Apr 2010, 07:48
If we could pick a team purely on our best kicks, who would be included/dropped?
It would be an interesting look to see how many guys who are good kicks on our list who are not getting a game. If we picked our best spine, from FF to FB, then filled the team with our best kicks, I wonder how we'd go? I think that would give us a fair idea on our list though
The Dustbin
26 Apr 2010, 08:33
I'm sick of seeing us handball to guys standing still or to team-mates in worse positions. What is the point of it?
That happens far too often. It's like a panic hanball, often resulting in a turnover.
Senior players are committing this offence. That's the worrying part.
AndyLesPaul
26 Apr 2010, 09:10
Handball's a major factor that is killing us in the gameplan.
eg. Hille 30 metres out, handballs it to Ryder who gets tackled, pretty sure Collingwood rebound with a goal.
The whole problem with our disposals is that we are always under pressure.
The key reasons behind this are
a) The decision making. Too slow to decide what to do, no awareness of what is around etc etc.
and what stands out the most
b) No Support from Team mates. Have our players heard of the term SHEPPARD??? Not one of our players works hard enough when we are in position of the ball.
This is basic stuff that we were taught as youngsters.
Even the best kicks in our team are going to stuff up a kick if they are under pressure. Get the guys who can;t kick to start making room for our better disposers so we can get good delivery into our Forwards. Basic stuff.
TheDon35
26 Apr 2010, 09:12
Credit to Collingwood for their pressure which in many instances forced the handball.
The first problem was, quite clearly the players are under a directive to handball from a coach who is utterly clueless.
The second problem is, our players from the captain down were an embarrassing rabble. Completely unable to execute on anything they are planning. They are hopeless currently.
warrane eagle
26 Apr 2010, 09:32
The whole problem with our disposals is that we are always under pressure.
The key reasons behind this are
a) The decision making. Too slow to decide what to do, no awareness of what is around etc etc.
and what stands out the most
b) No Support from Team mates. Have our players heard of the term SHEPPARD??? Not one of our players works hard enough when we are in position of the ball.
This is basic stuff that we were taught as youngsters.
Even the best kicks in our team are going to stuff up a kick if they are under pressure. Get the guys who can;t kick to start making room for our better disposers so we can get good delivery into our Forwards. Basic stuff.
I agree SDR you make perfect and logical sense. I think we over achieved last year to make the finals and now the guys are finding out how tough AFL can be week in and week out. It is easy to blame Knights - hell i dont think he can coach at all, but he has implemented game plan a which we all know what it is and our skills simply can't handle it. So we need to go to plan b,c,d but i am afraid Knights does not have 1 and is now made to look inept. His press conference yesterday did nothing to alleviate my fears either. What struck me the most yesterday was our no 1 strength last year in foot speed is almost non existant. I think this is because we are playing players that are out of form or the game has passed. McVeigh, Welsh, Winderlich, Dyson all seem to be off the boil. For the first 2 they have been great servants but now is not the time for sentimental selection. Prismall must of done something wrong as his frist games and pre season were good and we need him to help Jobe. No point running if we don't have the pill. I looked through our entire list i have picked 8 players who are struglling or would struggle to get a game elsewhere adn have been around a few years also. I am still not sure what the answer is that is the problem and its doing my head in!!! HELP ME LOL.
I am thinkng our backline is good, our rucks are fine and our midfield is ok when we have the ball. I would like to see us recruit a mature forward like a Hall and Fev to guide Neagle,Hurley etc and also a key midfielder. More i think about it Fev would of been ideal and Cuz even for all there short comings!! Thoughts ppls??
We have the easiest game plan to combat in the history of AFL. Put any sort of pressure on us and we crumble. Fact.
We have the easiest game plan to combat in the history of AFL. Put any sort of pressure on us and we crumble. Fact.
Look at the Hawthorne v North Melbourne game last night. Hawthorne in the first 3 quarters played a similar game plan to us, which involved running the ball through constant handballs. However, i dont know if many people saw this but Luke Hodge took him self of the ground and went straight to the phone to talk to Clarkson. Straight away their game plan changed to kicking the ball long and as a result they got them selves back in the game. We have a game plan that wants us to run, run and run which we have seen can work, but at the end of the day kicking the ball is the fastest way to getting the ball down forward. Knights has no plan B for when things go wrong and this is has cost us deeply this year. Changes to this game plan need to be made, or Knights needs to go.
That happens far too often. It's like a panic hanball, often resulting in a turnover.
Senior players are committing this offence. That's the worrying part.
I doesn't seem to be panic. I think it is the game plan to handball back into the corridor and run it through the centre. Trouble is they are just handballing it into congestion and other teams are reading where the ball is going to go - hence the turnovers.
bombers007
26 Apr 2010, 10:52
The amount of times yesterday bombers didn't take the 1st option available was countless then we would have to handball under pressure to someone who was either not moving or a pie player about 1cm from him. When i used to play we were told to go to the 1st option available is that still the case cause it doesn't seem to be at the bombers?
Big John
26 Apr 2010, 10:55
I agree with the sentiment, but think the problem could start upfield. A few times yesterday I watched scenario's where a guy had time and space to kick coming out of defence, but there was no-one downfield to kick to. Other players need to provide the option for the kick.
The Fact
26 Apr 2010, 11:28
IMO we have to many numbers around the ball well that's how it looked on tv. We were trying to play like the saints on saturday night with slot worse skills.
With our run and carry gameplan at it's best it's two or three handballs to the player in the open then kick long.
That's what we were seeing last year this year there is to many number around the ball and no body to kick long meaning more in tight presssure creating more turnovers by our selves.
IMO we need to get back to basics I would love to three talls up forward with neagle the stay at home ff hurley chf and gumby hhf because looking at these 3 they all have one thing in common they can take a mark and if we can get them leading instead of trying to run back onto a mark we are half way there.
So really in short we need players hanging backing and looking to lead into space instead of running back into space because our players are looking up seeing no one to kick to and are handballing into trouble.
Colin D'Cops
26 Apr 2010, 12:52
Despite Nathan Brown & possibly Harry O'Brien playing, Collingwood's tall defender stocks were running low with Presti out (Maxwell always floating defender). Yet we decided to absolutely over-possess the footy like drunken women and not kick the ball long to some one-on-one contested situations. It's still a part of football, and a risk that must be taken to win games. Gumbleton is pretty good in the air, as are Hurley & Hooker when they were forward. Hille ran forward a few times also. The amount of times those guys were one-on-one and didn't get the ball delivered to them, was astonishing. We must learn to take calculated risks when going forward, and keep the ball in our hands when nothing is presenting (kick backwards if need be, no handballing to stationary team-mates).
Darealrath
26 Apr 2010, 20:37
I wish Hirdy were still around because he would have none of this shit. As soon as he saw us stuffing around with it he'd take it upon himself to kick long to contests.
damochandler
26 Apr 2010, 20:42
i reckon they had 20 handballs in a row before they had another kickj yesterday and everyone of them was a rubbish handball or to teammate that had a collingwood player breathing down his neck. it isn't good enough
Tailypo
26 Apr 2010, 20:50
When the crowd is bronx cheering when a player merely kicks the ball then you know something is awry.
Obviously it wouldn't look so bad if players fanned out once someone gets the ball, to provide a moving target, rather than getting sucked in. I know Collingwood played the zone through the centre, but last year we were much more effective at using handballing to break the lines (see Hawthorn round 7). The work-rate just isn't there.
damochandler
26 Apr 2010, 20:55
if you kick and deep into the forward and there is a turnover, i can cop that. but when you piss fart around with it in opositions half back line like they did in ealry parts of the game and turn it over. i can't cop that
ChelseaFC
26 Apr 2010, 21:10
This thread sums up the most common thought i have throughout the game. I find myself continuously screaming "just kick it", and kicking the chair everytime we turn it over with useless hospital handballs to stationary slow players. I can tell i am not the only sufferer when there is a sarcastic cheer after we finally decide to kick it.
I'm only young and i haven't seen the best of Essendon (bar 2000 which i barely remember) but right now i just think we are the most frustrating team to watch. It seems so typical that we are faced with the same 'handball out of the defense turnover' that results in an opposition goal. Anzac day and the second quarter against West Coast just exemplify the point.
Just kick the bloody thing!
If we could pick a team purely on our best kicks, who would be included/dropped?
It would be an interesting look to see how many guys who are good kicks on our list who are not getting a game. If we picked our best spine, from FF to FB, then filled the team with our best kicks, I wonder how we'd go? I think that would give us a fair idea on our list though
Brent Prismall is arguably the best user of the ball by foot in our team, but for some reason is playing in the two's knights probably doesn't like the fact that he doesn't handball to stationary targets.
Why kick the ball 60 metres to your advantage when you can handball to a team-mate who is under horrendous pressure.
Really it doesn't make sense especially when we have been recruiting kpp's with our best picks.
I think it could also be a legacy of drafting players who may not be the best decision makers/have great awareness of what is going on - watching Freo, many of their players seem very composed, they seem to have the knack of knowing when to hold onto it for a second longer and pick the best option, or just bomb it long.
As a Melbourne fan, reading this thread I would've thought you were talking about us for the past 2 seasons... We had similar issues, always handballing to players under pressure, causing turnovers... Our players weren't running hard enough to provide options down the field either, therefore when the player did get free to kick the ball there wouldn't be an option... But I could see the game plan Bailey was trying to implement, and nothing would frustrate me more than someone screaming "Kick the bloody thing!" as they clearly couldn't understand the gameplan we were trying to implement... We've finally started to see the rewards for all that frustration this season as the players are implementing the gameplan, and it's exciting to watch...
What must be frustrating is how your team has gone backwards this season. Without having seen a heap of the Bombers, is this style of play the same as you were playing last season? So what's changed this year? Is it perhaps the increased intensity of the competition this season (really has gone up a couple of notches)? Are your players simply out of form?
dirtywhitepacker
26 Apr 2010, 23:44
As a Melbourne fan, reading this thread I would've thought you were talking about us for the past 2 seasons... We had similar issues, always handballing to players under pressure, causing turnovers...
What frustrates me is the fact this season bloody Melbourne supporters can come give us that sympathetic pat on the back, telling us everything is going to be ok...
Really... Melbourne are 3-2 and we are 1-4... MELBOURNE!!
:mad:
What frustrates me is the fact this season bloody Melbourne supporters can come give us that sympathetic pat on the back, telling us everything is going to be ok...
Really... Melbourne are 3-2 and we are 1-4... MELBOURNE!!
:mad:Yep, that was my immediate thought, too.
Appreciate the sincerity of the post, but it's pretty insulting and a sad reality that we're getting the "we were like you once" talk from Melbourne supporters. Hawthorn I could understand, but Melbourne?
Brent Prismall is arguably the best user of the ball by foot in our team, but for some reason is playing in the two's knights probably doesn't like the fact that he doesn't handball to stationary targets.
Bloody oath!
He'll drop Riemers because he also kicks the ball, something our 'game plan' obviously doesn't involve.
I have no doubt thats why he was dropped after Geelong. Only 4 handballs from 14 possessions. Obviously not Sir Matthew. We can't have that.
Bloody oath!
He'll drop Riemers because he also kicks the ball, something our 'game plan' obviously doesn't involve.
I have no doubt thats why he was dropped after Geelong. Only 4 handballs from 14 possessions. Obviously not Sir Matthew. We can't have that.I understand you're as disgusted and furious as we all are, but there's no need to start talking nonsense.
Prismall was dropped because:
a) He didn't get enough of the ball
b) He turned the ball over when he did get the ball
c) He refused to follow his man
d) He refused to help out team mates
He certainly wasn't alone, and not the last to do this, but by all reports he's done nothing at all of note in the VFL to warrant a re-call.
Leave him there until he learns what is required at the top level. Unfortunately we can't drop 19 or 20 players each week.
spudmaster
27 Apr 2010, 03:17
For what it's worth, us blokes on the other side are dreading the exact same thing at the moment, both teams seem about as bad as each other and seem obsessed with the handball game...
Bloody well hope it's knocked out of both sides before saturday as i love the rivalry games, but sheesh, if both the sides bring this handball crap of recent to the field there's going to be 70-80k people booing i reckon.
Here's hoping our sides don't enter the recordbooks Satdy night for setting a new total handball record :(
Hows Willow travelling out of interest? Any news on whether the blokes likely to get up in time?
chook12
27 Apr 2010, 11:24
Thing that pisses me off is seniors blokes like Fletcher don't have the balls to go upto team mates and tell them to follow me and just kick. I don't care if Fletcher torps it 50 metres to centre and turn it over. It's better than turning it over with a shit handball in the backpocket.
chook12
27 Apr 2010, 11:25
For what it's worth, us blokes on the other side are dreading the exact same thing at the moment, both teams seem about as bad as each other and seem obsessed with the handball game...
Bloody well hope it's knocked out of both sides before saturday as i love the rivalry games, but sheesh, if both the sides bring this handball crap of recent to the field there's going to be 70-80k people booing i reckon.
Here's hoping our sides don't enter the recordbooks Satdy night for setting a new total handball record :(
Hows Willow travelling out of interest? Any news on whether the blokes likely to get up in time?
They will be locking the gates saturday night just to keep the crowd in
Slattery_20
27 Apr 2010, 11:27
For what it's worth, us blokes on the other side are dreading the exact same thing at the moment, both teams seem about as bad as each other and seem obsessed with the handball game...
Bloody well hope it's knocked out of both sides before saturday as i love the rivalry games, but sheesh, if both the sides bring this handball crap of recent to the field there's going to be 70-80k people booing i reckon.
Here's hoping our sides don't enter the recordbooks Satdy night for setting a new total handball record :(
Hows Willow travelling out of interest? Any news on whether the blokes likely to get up in time?
Don't think he will. Ankle or foot knock.
I am enjoying rocking up to games and shouting "ZONE! Corral! Handball!" at appropriate moments.
I'd actually prefer to see a shepherd to a kick, unfortunately our blokes thinks shepherds are an ingredient in a pie.
chook12
27 Apr 2010, 11:30
Don't think he will. Ankle or foot knock.
I am enjoying rocking up to games and shouting "ZONE! Corral! Handball!" at appropriate moments.
I'd actually prefer to see a shepherd to a kick, unfortunately our blokes thinks shepherds are an ingredient in a pie.
Thats another ****ing thing, we never support it each when a player coughs up a ball no one ever goes back to help.
Ive been to 3 games so far this season. My observations:
* for some stupid reason we would rather handball to a guy under pressure, than kick to a contest 30-50m away. probably coaches instruction to handball away until we break through with a runner from half back?
* if we have a mark on halfback, there are not a lot of options to kick too. more to the point, PEOPLE ARENT PRESENTING FOR THE BALL. so many guys just stand still rather than creating space to lead into. we end up being forced to kick to that 2v2 contest on the wing where it goes out of bound.
* we are expecting to kick a winning score without a genuine full forward. while Neagle may not be able to run out games, put him in the square FFS he can lead, he can mark, he can kick!!!! This one really gets my anti-knights blood boiling! he thinks we can slot anyone down at full forward and she'll be right they'll kick a bag. this is crap knights.
i dont care if we miss finals, but if we dont at least get more than 6 wins you can kiss your career goodbye knights!!!!
This is what the gameplan reminds me of:
http://lemurking.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/crab_attack_5.jpg
Ben the Gooner
27 Apr 2010, 12:16
Brent Prismall is arguably the best user of the ball by foot in our team
Oh boy.:o
The title of this thread should be on every banner for the rest of this year.
Bloody frustrating.
Game plan is not working we are not adapting to the increase in pressure, tackling and zones. Geelong's game plan from 2007 cannot be used in isolation.
Confidence is now shot.
The players are not playing for the coach.
We need to find game plan suitable for our players. We sure dont have the cattle that Geelong had in 2007. Knights biggest downfall is his tacticle nouse in my opinion.
My biggest gripe is that we could still have Lloyd out there at full forward.
The House
27 Apr 2010, 12:42
Just posted this on another thread but seems a lot more appropriate here...sorry to double up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me i do like the idea of our high risk, handball and run game plan....it suits our list to a tee.
However, there is one major flaw that is genuinely costing us at minimum a goal or two a quarter....our resistance to use the chaos ball and kick 50m to a contest, or in front of a contest once our handball options are exhausted.
As we all know it's making us painful to watch and easy to defend.
At least if you move it down the ground quickly by foot occasionally you can say a mark, bring it to ground, ball up or throw in are all a win compared to a turnover where the kick should have been.
It seems if we don't have the perfect option for a kick we just keep handballing and putting ourselves under the pump.
Pears will hurt but i'd like to think he can be covered by someone in the combination of Hurly, Daniher, Ryder, Fletcher etc, and might also pave the way for Neagle or Laycock back into the side.
However Riemers is a different story....on the weekend he was one of the only ones smart enough to get the pill down field quickly when we were under pressure, and seems to have polish in a midfield that is lacking exactly that.
He will be difficult to cover.
I think it's definately time to bring in Prismal too...
As a Melbourne fan, reading this thread I would've thought you were talking about us for the past 2 seasons... We had similar issues, always handballing to players under pressure, causing turnovers... Our players weren't running hard enough to provide options down the field either, therefore when the player did get free to kick the ball there wouldn't be an option... But I could see the game plan Bailey was trying to implement, and nothing would frustrate me more than someone screaming "Kick the bloody thing!" as they clearly couldn't understand the gameplan we were trying to implement... We've finally started to see the rewards for all that frustration this season as the players are implementing the gameplan, and it's exciting to watch...
What must be frustrating is how your team has gone backwards this season. Without having seen a heap of the Bombers, is this style of play the same as you were playing last season? So what's changed this year? Is it perhaps the increased intensity of the competition this season (really has gone up a couple of notches)? Are your players simply out of form?
Congrats to Melbourne on their season to date. You blokes have been good to watch. :thumbsu:
It was obvious that our handball was sideways , backwards way too often or to players under immediate pressure, Melbourne more often than not handballed forward to players running forward and linking up - a huge difference.
Slappery
27 Apr 2010, 15:31
One thing i noticed on sunday, was the distinct lack of a forward line set up.
Even if we were to kick the ball long into our forward line, there is never anyone in the forward 50 to make a contest..they have pushed up in the defensive half of the ground.
We have some pretty exciting tall forwards, yet they are told to push up, past centre on some occassions and leave the F50 empty...why???
Leave one of them down there, in the goal square...so at least we have an option..too many times we had the ball...running it forward and had to go sideways or backwards because there was no one to kick it too...very frustrating
When it's a dry night at the Dome we can handball and use pace through the middle.
When it's a hard and wet afternoon at the MCG we need to kick it long to a contest. Good old fashioned footy. Handballing 5 times and hoping for something to open up just doesn't work.
The fact that Knights didn't recognise this at any point yesterday was startling.
FandangoDingo
27 Apr 2010, 17:30
I doesn't seem to be panic. I think it is the game plan to handball back into the corridor and run it through the centre. Trouble is they are just handballing it into congestion and other teams are reading where the ball is going to go - hence the turnovers.
As a pained observer, it sure looks a helluva lot like panic. It definitely feels more frantic than controlled.
Despite Nathan Brown & possibly Harry O'Brien playing, Collingwood's tall defender stocks were running low with Presti out (Maxwell always floating defender). Yet we decided to absolutely over-possess the footy like drunken women and not kick the ball long to some one-on-one contested situations. It's still a part of football, and a risk that must be taken to win games. Gumbleton is pretty good in the air, as are Hurley & Hooker when they were forward. Hille ran forward a few times also. The amount of times those guys were one-on-one and didn't get the ball delivered to them, was astonishing. We must learn to take calculated risks when going forward, and keep the ball in our hands when nothing is presenting (kick backwards if need be, no handballing to stationary team-mates).
This :thumbsu:
The work-rate just isn't there.
This
I'd actually prefer to see a shepherd to a kick, unfortunately our blokes thinks shepherds are an ingredient in a pie.
And this
What frustrates me is the fact this season bloody Melbourne supporters can come give us that sympathetic pat on the back, telling us everything is going to be ok...
Really... Melbourne are 3-2 and we are 1-4... MELBOURNE!!
:mad:
And even Richmond supporters too! FFS! :o
My biggest gripe is that we could still have Lloyd out there at full forward.
I gather your gripe is with Lloyd for knocking back the contract he was offered?