Undeserved Games

[Jonesy1987]

First off I'm Jonesy and I'm a Knights supporter. "Hi Jonesy"...

Most would agree that he has still some way to go with match day coaching but he is improving as the side is. My main gripe with him is that he is poor at identifying long term potential and awarding game time accordingly.

I watch a lot of football and attend 3-4 games a week, one area I think we are behind the 8 ball on, is giving undeserved games to kids with potential.

Collingwood for one are really starting to receive reward for doing just this, with Wellingham, Beams, Toovey, and Sidebottom, rewarding the faith their club showed them early on. Carlton are another with Yarran and Bower.

Some may argue we don't have the luxury of quality senior players to allow this, but IMO it is a must if we are to move forward with success.

Knights has had to make forced changes with Welsh and Dyson in the past few weeks, here's hoping he supports the kids in and makes them earn there place back through Bendigo.

[Skeeta Olly]

You sir, are a brave man.

[Shane Hird]

Brave or bored?


Yer, lets drop the whole lot of them...anyone over 25:rolleyes:

[Skeeta Olly]

I think the thing is, if you're going to play someone play them for 3 or 4 consecutive games. One example is Dvaid Myers. If you're going to play him, do so for 3 or so weeks, not just the one. Same goes for others.

Another problem is playing players out of position. Myers another victim of this.

[Jonesy1987]

You sir, are a brave man.

Maybe, but I think our supporter base is quite stupid football wise. Probably have the most negative minded fans at games with unrealistic expectations based on some 60 year old mentality of entitled success. We need to develop players just like everybody else and if that means we have to lose for a period of time so be it.

[stay true]

I don't think he implied that we should drop all seniors players, just that the ones coming back from injury/suspensions do so via good performances at Bendigo.

[stay true]

Maybe, but I think our supporter base is quite stupid football wise. Probably have the most negative minded fans at games with unrealistic expectations based on some 60 year old mentality of entitled success. We need to develop players just like everybody else and if that means we have to lose for a period of time so be it.
I have to agree with this lol.

[james_omahoney]

I'm a believer in selecting your best side each week to win. Having said that, I also believe you do need to develop your future players and get game time into them.

I think Knights is trying to do this, although I don't always agree with the match committee's selections, e.g. Welsh getting games when he's not earning it. With someone like Welsh, I think you need to ask the question "Is there someone who can give us the same output and who also would benefit from the experience in the long term?".

In this situation, say if you had a Howlett who could give roughly the same output, you'd go with Howlett as it'd be more worth it for the team in the long run. On the other hand, if you had a Howlett with potentially more long-term worth, but who wouldn't give the same output at this point in time as a senior player, then you'd go with the Welsh or the Dyson.

I think the Welsh injury is a blessing, as injuries can often be, as it didn't look like he was going to be dropped.

I do agree with you and I don't. You need to pick your best 22 each week, but if you have players of equal merit, go with the one with more long-term value.

[Jonesy1987]

Brave or bored?


Yer, lets drop the whole lot of them...anyone over 25:rolleyes:

Didn't imply that at all, Fletcher, Mcveigh, Hille, Watson and NLM all deserve to be in side. Its players like Winderlich, Welsh, Prismall, Atkinson, Slattery and Lonergan, that are our biggest concern. They are selected on a few favorable attributes, yet all have appeared to hit a wall in there development and aren't going to improve us as a side long term. Now players like Myers, Houli, and Jetta, each clearly have a large scope for improvement and IMO deserve a chance like Skeeta said, 3 or 4 games to show what they can do.

[Macca18]

Maybe, but I think our supporter base is quite stupid football wise. Probably have the most negative minded fans at games with unrealistic expectations based on some 60 year old mentality of entitled success.

Could not agree more with this. :thumbsu:

Not even the most optimistic of supporter would of expected we were going to win the flag this year, especially after the departure for various reasons of 4 or 5 very experienced and fairly crucial players for us over the years... while every club has them I think we have some of biggest glory hunters for supporters who will be up and about at games when things are going well yet will sit on their hands and be first to criticise when things are not going so well... they also have very little idea about modern football and about developing and nurturing players, especially with a squad as young as ours, this process can often take years... people often forget that successful teams like Geelong & St Kilda took years for their squads to develop and reach their full potential and they had to have their fair share of heartache in the process...

My main criticism this year has been the lack of genuine fighting spirit in our players (in Round 2 against the Dockers & Round 5 against Collingwood mainly), I thought we really put 100% into our effort yesterday and were not rewarded a deserved 4 points due to costly turnovers and silly errors against a fairly difficult opponent who has had the wood over us for some time...

Most of us have been patient for a little while now but I think we just need to continue to be and get to games and support these guys... like all of us, I often disagree and get totally annoyed with the coach and other aspects of our gameplan but EFC have appointed Knights as coach and unfortunately none of us here on Bigfooty are in any position to retain or remove him from this position, especially in the middle of a season...

We've had more downs than ups so far this year but it certainly keeps things interesting as a supporter and while there are better teams out there we're not in a position where can totally rule out winning or losing ANY game...

Fingers crossed for a brighter remaining 2010.

[Daytripper]

Myers has had plenty of chances IMO (mostly undeserved) and has shown zero.

He is one player that needs to be in the best for Bendigo for at least a month before getting another opportunity - and even then only when we're desperate.

No problem with Jetta, Neagle or Houli getting a game. They have shown they can belong at the top level given half a chance.

[Jonesy1987]

Myers has had plenty of chances IMO (mostly undeserved) and has shown zero.

He is one player that needs to be in the best for Bendigo for at least a month before getting another opportunity - and even then only when we're desperate.

No problem with Jetta, Neagle or Houli getting a game. They have shown they can belong at the top level given half a chance.

Yet Myers hasn't been given a chance in the middle. If Knights is only going to play him in the back line I don't wont him in the side.

[Skeeta Olly]

Myers has had plenty of chances IMO (mostly undeserved) and has shown zero.

He is one player that needs to be in the best for Bendigo for at least a month before getting another opportunity - and even then only when we're desperate.

No problem with Jetta, Neagle or Houli getting a game. They have shown they can belong at the top level given half a chance.

Obviously missed Bendigo's game this week.

[WeAreEssendon]

I don't get it.

Zaharakis is in his second year and playing every game.
Gumbleton effectively his first and playing every game.
Melksham has been picked and playing regularly.
Pears and Hooker are picked always.
Myers was picked for a bit last year and didn't show much and is now learning the trade at VFL level and coming to grips basically.
Reimers has been given a fair few games.
Colyer has played a few games.
Howlett another.
Dempsey played every game last year.

I'm not sure we can pick and play any more kids. In fact it's probably cost us few games over the past two years. If we play any more kids then we'll probably be at a similar level to Richmond.

[Daytripper]

Obviously missed Bendigo's game this week.

Obviously as I was watching the seniors playing. :rolleyes:

How did he go ?

[Jonesy1987]

Obviously as I was watching the seniors playing. :rolleyes:

How did he go ?

Myers, Jetta and Muscles were very good, Houli was ok and Neagle was terrible.

[Skeeta Olly]

Obviously as I was watching the seniors playing. :rolleyes:

How did he go ?

Neagle was terrible.

[Daytripper]

Myers, Jetta and Muscles were very good, Houli was ok and Neagle was terrible.

Pace, disposal and decision making are key against St Kilda from a midfielders perspective.

I don't know if Myers ticks any of those boxes at all whilst Jetta and Houli have some good attributes in regards to speed and disposal.

Clearances aren't our problem at the moment so Myers stays at Bendigo for another 2 weeks minimum.

Margliani isn't eligoble to be picked so I don't know why people keep talking him up and Neagle will only play if a key forward needs replacing and he's behind Williams anyway.

[Kong]

I think the thing is, if you're going to play someone play them for 3 or 4 consecutive games. One example is Dvaid Myers. If you're going to play him, do so for 3 or so weeks, not just the one. Same goes for others.

Another problem is playing players out of position. Myers another victim of this.This.

[lamaros]

I don't get it.

Zaharakis is in his second year and playing every game.
Gumbleton effectively his first and playing every game.
Melksham has been picked and playing regularly.
Pears and Hooker are picked always.
Myers was picked for a bit last year and didn't show much and is now learning the trade at VFL level and coming to grips basically.
Reimers has been given a fair few games.
Colyer has played a few games.
Howlett another.
Dempsey played every game last year.

I'm not sure we can pick and play any more kids. In fact it's probably cost us few games over the past two years. If we play any more kids then we'll probably be at a similar level to Richmond.

this. OP obviously isn't paying as much attention to our team as they
think they have. Knights has backed many many players in.

Just because neagle isn't in the side doesn't change this.

[yaco55]

Players are being picked on potential, and not on performances for Bendigo.

Melksham has shown fantastic signs in two games - and struggled in two games - But he clearly doesn't have the tank to play a full AFL game.

So in Melsham's case I yet to be convinced that he should be playing senior football YET.

It is a conundrum.

[efcboy]

Myers has had plenty of chances IMO (mostly undeserved) and has shown zero.

He is one player that needs to be in the best for Bendigo for at least a month before getting another opportunity - and even then only when we're desperate.

No problem with Jetta, Neagle or Houli getting a game. They have shown they can belong at the top level given half a chance.

shown nothing? clearly you must not appreciate talent - when myers has played midfield he has looked excellent in the clearances.

the biggest mistake knights has been making is persisting with developing myers as a defender. it seems blatantly obvious to myself and several others on this board that myers is a midfielder. with his excellent kicking skills, reading of the play in midfield and good team voice/leadership he looks a great asset for the midfield.

when will knights wake up to this? i'm fearing this may never occur and myers will leave and be a successful midfielder for another club. this would hurt deep for me as, IMO, myers has the potential to be a great midfielder and team leader - possibly a captain.

[Jonesy1987]

I don't get it.

Zaharakis is in his second year and playing every game.
Gumbleton effectively his first and playing every game.
Melksham has been picked and playing regularly.
Pears and Hooker are picked always.
Myers was picked for a bit last year and didn't show much and is now learning the trade at VFL level and coming to grips basically.
Reimers has been given a fair few games.
Colyer has played a few games.
Howlett another.
Dempsey played every game last year.

I'm not sure we can pick and play any more kids. In fact it's probably cost us few games over the past two years. If we play any more kids then we'll probably be at a similar level to Richmond.


This is exactly my point, with the exception of Myers and Colyer, all these players are in our best 22. You know why? Because they were forced into the side when all our senior players were shown the door. Knights was ruthless when he came to the club but has become complacent.
Where Knights falls short is the last 3-4 spots in the 22. Too afraid to make the really hard choices.

BTW I didn't mention age, as it has nothing to do with the argument. More so choosing Atkinson, Dyson, Welsh, Lonergan, Davey instead of Houli, Myers and Jetta and so on. Knights selects certain players based on seniority and the fact they might perform at a higher level. Yet they only perform once every three games, and we still aren't winning.

When looking at our players objectively, Myers, Houli and Jetta are right at the top for the largest windows potential, yet I'm pretty sure at the end of this year all of them are out of contract. Watch them become guns at other clubs because we haven't given them the chance.

Also Coyler and Melksham have only been played when we've had injuries, watch them go out of the side when Welsh and Dyson come back.

[Longy413]

I don't get this. Houli has got games but has fluffed them up.

Jetta is coming back from injury.

Dyson has been one of our most consistent performers.

Davey did get dropped, came back and has been fantastic.

Atkinson, whilst a more mature player is only young in experience.

I don't think they always pick the right 22 for the match, but I don't think he is making a mistake in blooding youngers. Our starting spine hasn't managed puberty yet, if we picked anymore kids in our side, we'd be running a creche.

[lamaros]

Jetta was injured. Myers has had chances and will get more.

And Dyson is exactly contrary to your argument: he's one guy who was backed on potential the last few years and has responded to it. He's actually exactly the kind of thing you are suggesting we need to happen.

You tall about unintelligent supporters, but you're not doing yourself any
favours with this thread.

Seem more of a 'I like houli, myers and neagle and not lonergan and dyson. Play my favourites instead Knights! Whaa' thread to me.

[Slattery_20]

Jetta was injured. Myers has had chances and will get more.

And Dyson is exactly contrary to your argument: he's one guy who was backed on potential the last few years and has responded to it. He's actually exactly the kind of thing you are suggesting we need to happen.

You tall about unintelligent supporters, but you're not doing yourself any
favours with this thread.

Seem more of a 'I like houli, myers and neagle and not lonergan and dyson. Play my favourites instead Knights! Whaa' thread to me.
Accounts for a good solid majority of posts in any changes thread.

[Jonesy1987]

Jetta was injured. Myers has had chances and will get more.

And Dyson is exactly contrary to your argument: he's one guy who was backed on potential the last few years and has responded to it. He's actually exactly the kind of thing you are suggesting we need to happen.

You tall about unintelligent supporters, but you're not doing yourself any
favours with this thread.

Seem more of a 'I like houli, myers and neagle and not lonergan and dyson. Play my favourites instead Knights! Whaa' thread to me.

Not at all, Dyson is a favorite of mine and I don't particularly like Houli or Myers.

Winderlich, Dempsey, Welsh, Dyson, Davey all were given chances to shine and performed well, yet all had huge form slumps and not punished, Neagle makes one mistake when taking the game on and is gone for 6+ weeks.
It's Knights continuing double standards and its become tedious.

[The Donners]

Maybe, but I think our supporter base is quite stupid football wise. Probably have the most negative minded fans at games with unrealistic expectations based on some 60 year old mentality of entitled success. We need to develop players just like everybody else and if that means we have to lose for a period of time so be it.

I agree with what you're saying but isn't this the same thing we were saying 2, 3 or more years ago? That's my biggest issue, that and the fact we had our best preseason injury-wise in years!

[Jonesy1987]

I agree with what you're saying but isn't this the same thing we were saying 2, 3 or more years ago? That's my biggest issue, that and the fact we had our best preseason injury-wise in years!

Yeah, Knights did really well early on though, cutting the dead wood, but stalled before completing the job.

[WeAreEssendon]

Yeah, Knights did really well early on though, cutting the dead wood, but stalled before completing the job.

No point in cutting dead wood when you replace it with more of the same in Skipworth, Atkinson.. heck even Prismall, Williams.

[Jonesy1987]

No point in cutting dead wood when you replace it with more of the same in Skipworth, Atkinson.. heck even Prismall, Williams.

Agreed, while Prismall showed good signs so early after returning from injury, he's really failed to kick on.

[Eleven 38]

Yeah, Knights did really well early on though, cutting the dead wood, but stalled before completing the job.

i think hes done a very good job changing the list, but at this time i think is a time to be more patient with the list management as the draft picks wont be there, whats the point of cutting 21yo's if your just going to have to re-draft untried 21yo's?? need to make sure there is a better option than what you have rather than taking gamble at this point!

we already seeing richmond gambling with drafting 21+yos, and we know how they are going!

[Jonesy1987]

Good point, but I don't think we should be cutting them from the list, just wish Knights took the same policy with his senior players that he does with the juniors.

[Godzke]

:):)Hi J:)one:):)sy!! :) :)Maybe, but I think our supporter base is quite stupid football wise. Probably have the most negative minded fans at games with unrealistic expectations based on some 60 year old mentality of entitled success. We need to develop players just like everybody else and if that means we have to lose for a period of time so be it.
Definitely.

Hence why we have so many emos on this board that we see a dozen "roast" threads after every loss and just as many "toasts" after a win. Very emotionally sensitive supporter group on here.

[The Donners]

:):)Hi J:)one:):)sy!! :) :)
Definitely.

Hence why we have so many emos on this board that we see a dozen "roast" threads after every loss and just as many "toasts" after a win. Very emotionally sensitive supporter group on here.

Consistency is an issue, much like our players? :confused:

Really, 6 or so years of being crap, those supporters still attending games, of course they're going to get impatient. I'm getting impatient, I have high expectations, that's what makes a club like Essendon superior... that has gone. Too many people going down the path of "we have a young list, a young coach...", it's complete bullshit.

They are excuses for mediocrity.

[Kong]

I'm sick of waiting, but what else can you do.

[Godzke]

Yes, we all have high expectations because of our rich history of success. But that's no excuse for the wild mood swings we see on here. Our BF supporters need to be a lot more grounded and measured when responding to good and bad news.

Don't get me wrong, I was bloody angry after the Port loss, but it's best to walk away from it for 24 hours and return with a cool head to analyse what went wrong rather than pissing and moaning through "roast" threads.

[Kong]

Well said.

[The Donners]

Some of those people are highly passionate supporters who feel they're being short-changed by a group of pansies who after playing 10 or more years of football, at every level, are still learning the game with regard to 1%ers and a coaching staff that don't seem to impliment these 1%ers into their training - or so it seems.

P.S. The 1%ers jibe is merely an example, 1 of many.

[Godzke]

That's because we have a young list. Sure there's many things you'd expect not to happen at this level of football but if ever there was a lesson to be learnt it's that patience is a virtue. Until then, like Whomb said, "what can you do about it?". Only be patient.

Geelong is the best example of that. Core of their playing group came from the 1999-2001 drafts and they were very ordinary for the first half of the decade. A few excellent additions along the way but Geelong fans are enjoying their success through patiently waiting and persisting with Bomber Thompson despite the criticism he received for several years.

Look at Richmond and Carlton fans. Had to cop a lot of shit for little reward in the last decade and a bit. Patience, above all else, is what's keeping their heads up looking to see if there's light at the end of the tunnel.

ps: Another important thing I'd like to clarify is the idea of "emotionally disconnecting" yourself from the club when times get rough. Many will clarify this as bandwagoning on and off. bullshit!

-I still actively follow them and I go to almost as many games but I ignored any media related to Essendon over the last few years.
-I adopted a more pessimistic and maligned view of our future hope so as to minimise disappointment until proven otherwise.
-I actively engage in other sports to diversify my satisfaction/dissatisfaction levels (no, i don't support barca because they are succesful). Tottenham/Fiorentina/PSG/Pacers/Colts (Indianapolis family connection). It's like diversifying your investment portfolio.

Mastering your emotional levels is absolutely paramount.

[Longy413]

That's because we have a young list.

If our coaching group want us to be assessed as having a young list, then they shouldn't be sending a message of wanted to be assessed as men.

[pazza]

I've said this all the long - form must be a key selection criteria in terms of selection. The other part to that is fitness. Is it really worth us playing Hurley on one leg this week? Of course it isn't, if he's not even 80% fit.

[Jonesy1987]

If our coaching group want us to be assessed as having a young list, then they shouldn't be sending a message of wanted to be assessed as men.

Knights said On The Couch that was player driven initiative, not necessarily shared by the coaching panel.

[bipolarbeaR]

I think the simple thing is that if your experienced players aren't good enough to carry your youngsters to a premiership, then you might as well play youngsters so that they reach their potential early, we have about 15 players that should all peak around 2012, it's going to be scary for the rest of the comp.

[Longy413]

Knights said On The Couch that was player driven initiative, not necessarily shared by the coaching panel.

Knights endorsed it the moment he went to the media saying "we want to be judged as men"