View Full Version : Midfield discussion - Moved from Knights thread
And in those three years he hasnt had any A grade (or potential A grade) mids to work with.
Melksham is really the only one. He looks good, but needs time to mature.
We have the opposite problem at Carlton with an abundance of A grade mids and bugger all quality KPF.I understand that you're trying to add to the conversation, so I'm going to try avoid the "my team's better because" argument, but you first say that we don't even have any potentially A-grade midfielders, then say you have an abundance.
I'm sorry, Judd is your only A-Grade midfielder; if you're including any of McLean, Gibbs or Murphy, then Watson is a no-brainer.
In 3 years I'd love to see:
Stanton Watson Reimers
Ryder Melksham Zaharakis
Malifice
10 May 2010, 19:02
I understand that you're trying to add to the conversation, so I'm going to try avoid the "my team's better because" argument, but you first say that we don't even have any potentially A-grade midfielders, then say you have an abundance.
I'm sorry, Judd is your only A-Grade midfielder; if you're including any of McLean, Gibbs or Murphy, then Watson is a no-brainer.
Actually I rate Judd as A+ (Elite)... alongside only really Ablett at the moment as a truly elite midfeild talent.
Blokes like Black, Cousins etc were all 'up there' as Elite mids in their day as well but age has dropped back to the rest of the pack.
Im a harsh marker though.
For the record, I only rate Murphy as an 'A' grade from the Blues (alongside blokes like Kerr from WCE when he isnt injured, Black as at 2010, Bartell etc) with Gibbs around an A- (around the same level as Deledio from Richmond and Selwood at Geelong).
Probably slot Watson in around a B+ somewhere based on my ratings. Around the same level as I rated Ben Cousins circa 2009.
And he's your best mid at the moment.
Thats not slagging your guys off by the way. Im just commenting on an acknowledge weakness of your side.
Just like our forward line needs some work over the next few years, your midfield is a little mediocre and could pretty clearly use an injection of class.
And before I get hammered for going OT, I only raised it in relation to one of your posters bagging out your own coach as he has 'failed to develop a midfield for three years'. I was actually defending Knights as he really hasnt had much to work with in the way of both existing talent and low draft picks (they were pretty much all spent getting replacements for your ageing talls).
Fair enough.
I really disagree with you, but as you day it's off-topic, and it's a converation better served on the Main Board than one of the team's.
Jonesy1987
10 May 2010, 20:38
Im a harsh marker though.
For the record, I only rate Murphy as an 'A' grade from the Blues with Gibbs around an A-
Probably slot Watson in around a B+ somewhere based on my ratings.
Except when it comes to your own players...
Watson is a better player than Gibbs, who lacks a real defensive side, and doesn't win much contested ball. Murphy and Watson are pretty close and Jobe was just ahead at the start of the year but Murphy has been better so far.
james_omahoney
10 May 2010, 21:54
LOL at Watson being B+. Easily in the top 10 midfielders in the comp.
LOL at Watson being B+. Easily in the top 10 midfielders in the comp.Nah, Murphy and Gibbs are better, because they were #1 draft picks.
I understand that you're trying to add to the conversation, so I'm going to try avoid the "my team's better because" argument, but you first say that we don't even have any potentially A-grade midfielders, then say you have an abundance.
I'm sorry, Judd is your only A-Grade midfielder; if you're including any of McLean, Gibbs or Murphy, then Watson is a no-brainer.
In 3 years I'd love to see:
Stanton Watson Reimers
Ryder Melksham Zaharakis
Whomb
Murphy is an A Grade midfielder who kicks goals.
Jury is still out on Gibbs.
LOL at Watson being B+. Easily in the top 10 midfielders in the comp.
Watson is getting lots of the ball due to his greater experience - but his influence has been less than the previous three years.
Strongly disagree.
But as I said, it has nothing to do with this thread, so I'm not getting into it.
Pevers-Legend
11 May 2010, 00:15
Whomb
Murphy is an A Grade midfielder who kicks goals.
Agreed - he kicks goals and wins games. Different player to watson, but he is a more damaging player (perhaps due to circumstance)
Jury is still out on Gibbs.
He is a friggin good player. The only thing the jury is still out on is whether he will be top shlef i.e. top5 or if he will be top 20. How old is he?
There is a reason our midfield is crap - because we are full of B-graders who have zero defensive pressure or teamwork around a stoppage.
Agreed - he kicks goals and wins games. Different player to watson, but he is a more damaging player (perhaps due to circumstance)
He is a friggin god player. The only thing the jury is still out on is whether he will be top shlef i.e. top5 or if he will be top 20. How old is he?
There is a reason our midfield is crap - because we are full of B-graders who have zero defensive pressure or teamwork around a stoppage.
Not sure how good Gibbs will become - because Carlton tend to play him as a quarterback, as opposed to a midfielder - he doesn't achieve the greatest hurt factor from his disposals
Malifice
11 May 2010, 02:10
Watson is a better player than Gibbs,
Last I have to say on this topic, but if we were to hold a phantom draft now, with both players available, I honestly believe Gibbs would go above Watson virtually every time.
For the record, I reckon Gumby and Hurley would go above Henderson in the same draft as well.
Anyhow, adios.
Not going to get drawn into a 'our players are better than player x' discussion.
Good luck for the season.
Jonesy1987
11 May 2010, 04:09
Last I have to say on this topic, but if we were to hold a phantom draft now, with both players available, I honestly believe Gibbs would go above Watson virtually every time.
Of course he would, there is not a huge gap between them and has 5 years on his side, but on current level Watson is better.
be realistic, there is no way anyone else would have us in a better position at this stage of the development of the players,
im not a knights fan and he may not be the right person to take us to 17, but i still think he was the best option available at the time to get us through this period. i trully believe that the board made the right decision in not taking hardwick as we would be the ones gettin smashed by 10goals every game this year.
Exactly Twice now, Hardwick first order has now been to gut the club (or in our case attempt to do it) and become an onfield irrelevance for two or three years. I don't know why people arn't more sceptical about a coaches prime motivation when he makes that move especially when the heart of the draft has been ripped out for two of those years.
Re A grade mid debate:
It is unfair to say that we haven't drafted any midfield talent. Zaharakis and Melksham both look like A grade midfielders in the making and Knights wanted to develop some of the talent on the list. Watson has developed and if Winderlich had maintained his form from last year he is pratically thereas well.
Myers is obviously the issue here and I don't think we got it wrong because we didn't take Palmer. He can't kick and doesn't have enough of an upside to suggest he will be an elite player. Not sure Myers is either but he will break even with Palmer and can kick (which is what we need).
Is Rich looking like a significantly better long term prospect than Zaharakis? Zaharakis isn't as mature but by the start of next year when DZ has another preseason to match Rich's physical maturity and plays midfield they will be pretty much on par. Throw Hurley into this deal and I don't see how we failed there.
None of this means that we should not throw heaven and earth at Boak or someone of his talents if they are out of contract. We have room in the cap and surely you can't make an argument against trading for a midfield jet.
In 2012 imagine a midfied containing Watson, Boak, Zaharakis, Winderlich, Stanton and Melksham as the front line talent. Add people like Hocking, NLM and Riggers (seriously think this guy has a role to play) as the grunt and we'd have something.
Malifice
11 May 2010, 11:42
Ahh, good. I see this thread has been moved so I'll weigh back in without going OT.
Of course he would, there is not a huge gap between them and has 5 years on his side, but on current level Watson is better.
Still not sure I agree with you.
Gibbs has been playing a more half back role while rotating through the midfield and still gets the occasional tagging job so its a little hard to directly compare the two.
For a direct comparison between the two heres a link:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=6&pid1=510&tid2=4&pid2=1719&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2009&fid2=P&fopt2=2009
Pretty similar stats and form between the two last year, but not only is Gibbs slightly in front, he also has the advantage of youth on his side (he only just turned 21 and in his 4th season this year).
This isnt a diss. Being favourably compared to a 21 year old former number 1 draft pick is a massive pat on the back for Watson.
And Gibbs is our third (possibly fourth) best mid behind Judd, Murphy, and the underrated Carrazzo.
That said, Id kill to get my hands on Essendons talls.
Gumbelton in particular.
Slattery_20
11 May 2010, 14:36
Watson's a midfielder. Gibbs lines up off half back and often stays there. Part-timer. Those stats don't show contested possies, clearances, 1st possies etc; at which I'm sure Jobe would dominate Gibbs (just as Gibbs would dominate long kicking and rebound 50s). I don't get the point, I don't get the argument.
Murphy > Watson imo.
Murphy is a goal kicking midfielder who can win his own ball. We're crying out for a player like him at Essendon.
Frothies Mcveigh
11 May 2010, 16:16
Watson >>> Gibbs.
If you look at the midfield he has around him compared to Watson then its obvious why he gets the stats he does. If you swap Gibbs with Watson then Watson would be one of the best Mids in the game and Gibbs would be so-so.
james_omahoney
11 May 2010, 18:11
Watson is getting lots of the ball due to his greater experience - but his influence has been less than the previous three years.
Previous three years? Last year was probably his first year as 'elite' IMO, and this year he's matching, if not exceeding that, in both possession numbers and influence. It's just the support around him has been a bit insipid this year at times.
Edit: Just had a look at EFC and CFC's respective AFL sites (where you can look at this year's player stats):
Player/Games/Disposals/Contested Disposals/% Contested
Watson/7/197/95/48%
Gibbs/7/175/44/25%
Murphy/7/177/63/36%
Judd/4/118/58/49%
The bloody stat for centre clearances comes up as all 0s, so I couldn't put that in.
I'm not trying to put Watson in Judd's league, but the above shows how ridiculous that link in this thread with the player comparison is. Not having a go at Gibbs, and obviously they're different players and different ages, but the link was just pathetic. Watson's winning as much contested ball as Judd and had not had the support of a couple of #1 drafts.
Watson = A grade
Gibbs = B+*
Murphy = B+*
Judd = A+
* at this stage
Anything else is just silly. I also can't believe I've been dragged into a stupid argument about player report card grades. I'm so embarrassed.
Just for reference, Ablett's averaging 15 CP per game this year compared to Watson's 14. Lesser influence?
http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/230231.html
http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/220001.html
Previous three years? Last year was probably his first year as 'elite' IMO, and this year he's matching, if not exceeding that, in both possession numbers and influence. It's just the support around him has been a bit insipid this year at times.
Absolutely and completely agree. He's single handed kept us in some games this year. imagine the essendon midfield without him. Its like picturing richmond.
As for Watson Gibbs comparison. There so different. It like comparing fev and Brown. They both kick goals but one sits in the square and the other owns half the field in front of him
Previous three years? Last year was probably his first year as 'elite' IMO, and this year he's matching, if not exceeding that, in both possession numbers and influence. It's just the support around him has been a bit insipid this year at times.
Edit: Just had a look at EFC and CFC's respective AFL sites (where you can look at this year's player stats):
Player/Games/Disposals/Contested Disposals/% Contested
Watson/7/197/95/48%
Gibbs/7/175/44/25%
Murphy/7/177/63/36%
Judd/4/118/58/49%
The bloody stat for centre clearances comes up as all 0s, so I couldn't put that in.
I'm not trying to put Watson in Judd's league, but the above shows how ridiculous that link in this thread with the player comparison is. Not having a go at Gibbs, and obviously they're different players and different ages, but the link was just pathetic. Watson's winning as much contested ball as Judd and had not had the support of a couple of #1 drafts.
Watson = A grade
Gibbs = B+*
Murphy = B+*
Judd = A+
* at this stage
Anything else is just silly. I also can't believe I've been dragged into a stupid argument about player report card grades. I'm so embarrassed.
Just for reference, Ablett's averaging 15 CP per game this year compared to Watson's 14. Lesser influence? You moron.
http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/230231.html
http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/220001.html****ing spot on.
I'd have similar assessments to the bolded, although with Murphy perhaps a B++; whatever the grade, he's better than Gibbs (at this stage), but not as good as Watson (at this stage). Judd's a no-brainer.
Jobe Watson ranked number 1 in the comp for contested possessions.
Knight Ryders
11 May 2010, 21:55
....you may all laugh, but I think Colyer will end up being one out of the box. His decision making is very suspect right at this moment, but he has plenty of speed and his kicking action is actually pretty good. It's just the application. If he can improve this over the next couple of years, we will have a ripper on our hands :thumbsu:.
I also been banging on in a coule of threads about free agency. We will be perfectly placed when it comes in to take full advantage of it. Gumby, Pears, Hurley, Hooker, Melksham and Zaharakis will be nearing that 75-100 game period and one or two absolute gun midfielders or even role players (someone like a Clinton Young or Nathan Foley) could be added to take our team from a 4-6 team to a 1-3 team.
Towno78
11 May 2010, 23:15
....you may all laugh, but I think Colyer will end up being one out of the box. His decision making is very suspect right at this moment, but he has plenty of speed and his kicking action is actually pretty good. It's just the application. If he can improve this over the next couple of years, we will have a ripper on our hands :thumbsu:.
Doubt many will laugh, Colyer gets that much man love on this forum it reeks of John West.
Previous three years? Last year was probably his first year as 'elite' IMO, and this year he's matching, if not exceeding that, in both possession numbers and influence. It's just the support around him has been a bit insipid this year at times.
Edit: Just had a look at EFC and CFC's respective AFL sites (where you can look at this year's player stats):
Player/Games/Disposals/Contested Disposals/% Contested
Watson/7/197/95/48%
Gibbs/7/175/44/25%
Murphy/7/177/63/36%
Judd/4/118/58/49%
The bloody stat for centre clearances comes up as all 0s, so I couldn't put that in.
I'm not trying to put Watson in Judd's league, but the above shows how ridiculous that link in this thread with the player comparison is. Not having a go at Gibbs, and obviously they're different players and different ages, but the link was just pathetic. Watson's winning as much contested ball as Judd and had not had the support of a couple of #1 drafts.
Watson = A grade
Gibbs = B+*
Murphy = B+*
Judd = A+
* at this stage
Anything else is just silly. I also can't believe I've been dragged into a stupid argument about player report card grades. I'm so embarrassed.
Just for reference, Ablett's averaging 15 CP per game this year compared to Watson's 14. Lesser influence? You moron.
http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/230231.html
http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/profile/220001.html
Your stats back up my argument.
Percentage of contested possessions between Judd and watson is the same.
How about we look at the other 50% of possessions which are uncontested - Judd runs much better than Watson, kicks better and therefore will always be rated more highly.
And when you look at contested possessions - Judd and Ablett have the ability to motor away from the contest and therefore be more effective.
Ablett got 5 clearances in the first 10 minutes on Sunday and on three occasions ran away from the pack Why did Geelong win the 2009 GF in the last quarter - 2 reasons - Ablett got 2 or 3 clearances in the last 15 minutes - In which he ran away from the pack - this counts as a contested possession and reason was Chapman's decision making.
Watson is not at that level yet and probably won't reach the level of the 5 or 6 elite midfielders.
Gibb's contested possession figures show that until he spends more time in the midfield he won't ever be considered elite.
I stand by my opinion that Watson has had less influence ( so far ) this year than the last three years.
Finally personal abuse is not required when having a discussion
dirtywhitepacker
12 May 2010, 02:12
Pretty similar stats and form between the two last year, but not only is Gibbs slightly in front
And Gibbs is our third (possibly fourth) best mid behind Judd, Murphy, and the underrated Carrazzo.
Was it just indirectly suggested on the Essendon board that Andrew Carrazzo is a better player than Jobe Watson!?! :eek:
Ben the Gooner
12 May 2010, 09:23
Was it just indirectly suggested on the Essendon board that Andrew Carrazzo is a better player than Jobe Watson!?! :eek:
Just look at his contested ability, elite kicking style etc.
Remember his first quarter against us in 2008? Just exceptional stuff, won the game.
Cannot believe I didn't pick up on that.
What a laugh.
james_omahoney
12 May 2010, 18:52
Your stats back up my argument.
Percentage of contested possessions between Judd and watson is the same.
How about we look at the other 50% of possessions which are uncontested - Judd runs much better than Watson, kicks better and therefore will always be rated more highly.
And when you look at contested possessions - Judd and Ablett have the ability to motor away from the contest and therefore be more effective.
Ablett got 5 clearances in the first 10 minutes on Sunday and on three occasions ran away from the pack Why did Geelong win the 2009 GF in the last quarter - 2 reasons - Ablett got 2 or 3 clearances in the last 15 minutes - In which he ran away from the pack - this counts as a contested possession and reason was Chapman's decision making.
Watson is not at that level yet and probably won't reach the level of the 5 or 6 elite midfielders.
Gibb's contested possession figures show that until he spends more time in the midfield he won't ever be considered elite.
I stand by my opinion that Watson has had less influence ( so far ) this year than the last three years.
Finally personal abuse is not required when having a discussion
The stats don't back you up at all. I wasn't comparing Watson to Judd. I just showed that Watson's influence in winning the ball is similar to Judd's and Ablett's to help demonstrate my point that his influence this year is as good as, if not better than last year. Statistically he's laying more tackles, winning more ball and getting more clearances in a weaker side. His disposal is far better than it was 2-3 years ago and his leadership only grows.
Watson's role is incredibly important - his handballs out of packs from hard ball gets are very influential. Don't downplay what he does with the ball in traffic.
Secondly, Judd does not kick better than Watson. Judd is a good kick, but not a great kick. He sprays a lot these days, and I'd argue that Watson's improved kicking since 2008 makes him also a good kick, and nothing more. Again, I digress, and it's not my intention to put Watson in Judd's league (Judd kicks more goals, has greater presence, is obviously far more explosive, etc).
Gibbs' contested possession figures show that until he spends more time in the midfield he won't ever be considered as good as Watson.
I would like you to demonstrate how Jobe's influence this year has been lesser than the last three years. I'd be very interested to hear your reasoning. You actually haven't explained it at all yet.
But you're right about personal abuse and I probably should be sorry for it.
His response (although kind of irrelevant) will be this: "Opposition players back away from Jobe to allow him to kick, as they know his handball is more damaging." :p
The stats don't back you up at all. I wasn't comparing Watson to Judd. I just showed that Watson's influence in winning the ball is similar to Judd's and Ablett's to help demonstrate my point that his influence this year is as good as, if not better than last year. Statistically he's laying more tackles, winning more ball and getting more clearances in a weaker side. His disposal is far better than it was 2-3 years ago and his leadership only grows.
Watson's role is incredibly important - his handballs out of packs from hard ball gets are very influential. Don't downplay what he does with the ball in traffic.
Secondly, Judd does not kick better than Watson. Judd is a good kick, but not a great kick. He sprays a lot these days, and I'd argue that Watson's improved kicking since 2008 makes him also a good kick, and nothing more. Again, I digress, and it's not my intention to put Watson in Judd's league (Judd kicks more goals, has greater presence, is obviously far more explosive, etc).
Gibbs' contested possession figures show that until he spends more time in the midfield he won't ever be considered as good as Watson.
I would like you to demonstrate how Jobe's influence this year has been lesser than the last three years. I'd be very interested to hear your reasoning. You actually haven't explained it at all yet.
But you're right about personal abuse and I probably should be sorry for it.
We are getting closer to agreeing.
Dont rate Gibbs as highly as others because he doesnt have much hurt factor with his disposals - That is why I rate Murphy higher - Murphy can hurt with his kicking and kicks goals.
We are talking about contested possessions as a percentage of total possessions - Judd is a freak and has always averaged 45% contested possessions and is still an elite player.
Check the AFL prospectus for contested possessions for inside midfielders in the period 2007-2009 - Look for players such as Chapman, Hayes, Black, Ablett, Mitchell and they average 35 to 40% contested possessions. The point I am making is that Watson wins a high amount of his total possessions in contested situations - The opposition realise this and try to make him handball less - because he has elite vision and fantastic handballing skills. It would be better if we had other players who could win more clearances, allowing Watson to be in the second link in the chain where he could use his elite vision and handballing skills. I don't think we are obtaining maximum benefit from Watson's possessions.
Watson's form has been solid this year, without being outstanding. IMO he has only had a decisive impact in one game this year.
Possibly you could explain why Watson has been better in 2010 ( so far ) than in 2009 ?
Anyway - I hope that he rips it up against StKilda because he was clearly B.O.G both times in 2009.
Possibly you could explain why
His response (although kind of irrelevant) will be this: "Opposition players back away from Jobe to allow him to kick, as they know his handball is more damaging." :p
I wish you were coaching opposition teams in the AFL.
You would allow Watson to handball at will - which can only be a positive for the EFC.;)
james_omahoney
13 May 2010, 06:50
We are getting closer to agreeing.
Dont rate Gibbs as highly as others because he doesnt have much hurt factor with his disposals - That is why I rate Murphy higher - Murphy can hurt with his kicking and kicks goals.
We are talking about contested possessions as a percentage of total possessions - Judd is a freak and has always averaged 45% contested possessions and is still an elite player.
Check the AFL prospectus for contested possessions for inside midfielders in the period 2007-2009 - Look for players such as Chapman, Hayes, Black, Ablett, Mitchell and they average 35 to 40% contested possessions. The point I am making is that Watson wins a high amount of his total possessions in contested situations - The opposition realise this and try to make him handball less - because he has elite vision and fantastic handballing skills. It would be better if we had other players who could win more clearances, allowing Watson to be in the second link in the chain where he could use his elite vision and handballing skills. I don't think we are obtaining maximum benefit from Watson's possessions.
Watson's form has been solid this year, without being outstanding. IMO he has only had a decisive impact in one game this year.
Possibly you could explain why Watson has been better in 2010 ( so far ) than in 2009 ?
Anyway - I hope that he rips it up against StKilda because he was clearly B.O.G both times in 2009.
Possibly you could explain why
Yeah the stats show he's having more influence, which support my perception.
You've kind of restated your contention that his influence has been lesser, but still not explained why. What is he doing differently that has a lesser impact.
And yes we agree his BOG performance vs. St. Kilda was fantastic in rd. 20 last year, but that was his best game of a whole season. I hope you're not basing your idea on this.