Essendon despair at Mark Williams' attitude problem

[TeamHurley]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/essendon-despair-at-mark-williams-attitude-problem/story-e6frg7mf-1225876667466

In the past fortnight, playing for Bendigo, Williams has looked disinterested. He has not kicked a goal, scarcely chased as the modern forward is required to and, on Sunday, delivered just six kicks.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/essendon-despair-at-mark-williams-attitude-problem/story-e6frg7mf-1225876667466

[Pweter]

Didn't like being the 3rd forward at Hawthorn, I can only imagine his attitude playing for Bendigo. And 2.5 more years to run on his contract.... not a good sign.

Hopefully he can pull his finger out, otherwise a list clogger of the highest order. With a young list you don't need a "me first, woe is me" attitude being displayed by a senior squad member.

Come on Mark, prove something to yourself and everyone that follows the Dons!!!!!

[Ben the Gooner]

Disappointing.

[Phone]

Win some you lose some. Hope people don't judge the trade just on trading 16. Cause from memory if we didn't trade 16 we wouldn't have got 24 and 33.

[The Donners]

Were people expecting him to change?

This could now go down as the worst pick up in our club's history. I was happy to pick him up... I wasn't happy to drop him based on the fact that this IS Mark Williams.

You can't pick up players expecting them to change.

[KaaN10]

Were you guys expecting Mark Williams to enjoy playing for Bendigo?

He is quality, I'm sure after playing against Geelong this week he will be a regular.

[daffo]

I'm hoping he gets another chance in the 1's BUT you have to deserve the call up. This is a tough one because I feel we need him to play against Geelong.

[Vass38]

Got my buggered whats happened with this guy. He kicked 4 against the Blues was quiet against the Eagles over in Perth with only 1 goal but certainly wasn't on his own in having a bad night there. Got dropped after that and went back to Bendigo where he kicked bags of 3's and 4's a few times. then seemd to continually get overlooked for senior selection to the suprise of many....
Sure his body language may not be great but hes one of those types of players. His job is to kick goals - not rack up possesions, and hes proven in the carlton game and a few times at bendigo that he does that and does it well. He is now probably wondering what he has to do to get a senior game when he sees the likes of Howlett & Lonergan getting a run, and was probably told when recruited that hed get ample opportunities at his new club....
Why not give him a fair go? If not - why the hell did we recruit him in the first place...??:thumbsd:

[George Washington]

From what I saw on the weekend he was being heavily rotated and playing on a wing. I only saw the 3rd quarter and bits of the first though. Difficult to kick goals and get touches in a position you never play.

He also nearly took an awesome one handed screamer, so the talent is still there...

From reading that article I think it's a load of crap tbh. He talks about Williams in round 1, but doesn't mention he shut down Scarlett. We (and the writer) are obviously not privy to why people are dropped to Bendigo, and I don't think its to rack up 30 touches every game. Just look at Prismall, Atkinson etc. They are sent there to work on a particular facet of their game and when that is achieved they are recalled. In my opinion anyway.. Maybe Williams was unfit, hence why he is running around on a wing?

[Pocket_Pears]

Surely he has to realise his career is on the line now and needs to pull his finger out.

[The Donners]

Surely he has to realise his career is on the line now and needs to pull his finger out.

He's got a 3 year contract aka pension.

[Godzke]

If he doesn't get a game with Monfries injured, Lonergan out of sorts (yes he does provide a midfield rotation option) and Reimers yet to return ... then he might as well not bother returning to Windy Hill. I like the guy and think he has something he can genuinely offer but when all our lead up small forwards are struggling with form or fitness and he can't get selected then there's some serious concerns there.

[Ben the Gooner]

From reading that article I think it's a load of crap tbh. He talks about Williams in round 1, but doesn't mention he shut down Scarlett. We (and the writer) are obviously not privy to why people are dropped to Bendigo, and I don't think its to rack up 30 touches every game. Just look at Prismall, Atkinson etc. They are sent there to work on a particular facet of their game and when that is achieved they are recalled. In my opinion anyway.. Maybe Williams was unfit, hence why he is running around on a wing?

He wasn't actually dropped. He missed a couple of weeks with an injury, and when he was fit again, we had a functional forward structure. I can understand his frustration, but I can also understand Knights' unwillingness to change the formula.

With Hille and Laycock out, we don't have a ruckman/forward to assist Paddy, so we'll have to change the structure.

Footy throws up opportunities all the time, and if he misses out because of a dummy spit, he's only got himself to blame.

[Darealrath]

He definately strikes me as the type who is much more suited to playing in the seniors than in the twos, but it seems a little disappointing.

I think he can still offer a lot in the seniors if given the opportunity. Plus it may help to release Zaka into the midfield for longer.

It doesn't help him that Knights likes playing one of the ruckmen forward as 4 marking targets is too top heavy, and Willo is the unlucky one who misses out.

[chris2269]

Got my buggered whats happened with this guy. He kicked 4 against the Blues was quiet against the Eagles over in Perth with only 1 goal but certainly wasn't on his own in having a bad night there. Got dropped after that and went back to Bendigo where he kicked bags of 3's and 4's a few times. then seemd to continually get overlooked for senior selection to the suprise of many....
Sure his body language may not be great but hes one of those types of players. His job is to kick goals - not rack up possesions, and hes proven in the carlton game and a few times at bendigo that he does that and does it well. He is now probably wondering what he has to do to get a senior game when he sees the likes of Howlett & Lonergan getting a run, and was probably told when recruited that hed get ample opportunities at his new club....
Why not give him a fair go? If not - why the hell did we recruit him in the first place...??:thumbsd:

This.

I wasn't going to come back online, but on this I felt it fair I give the inside word.

That article is a complete load of rubbish. Anyone who knows Mark (and I would hope those at Essendon would by now) would know that it isn't true. How can you judge a player's character and output based on what they look like without even asking either the player themself or atleast the coaching staff and his teammates :confused:

Mark has and will always look laconic, it is just the way he is. If any of you ever got the chance to meet him you would be surprised at how quiet and relaxed he really is - he is no different in any circumstances. I specifically recall one of the commentators in the Geelong match where Willo kicked 6 on Scarlett - they couldn't get over how laid back he looked on the field when he was clearly dominating the match at the same time.

Mark is frustrated at not being in the seniors - particularly since they are finally coming into good form. Being frustrated isn't a bad thing either - it shows he actually cares - he WANTS to play in a succesful Essendon team. He chose to leave Hawthorn (he was still contracted and he would have 100% played regular senior footy for them this year) in the hope of reviatilising his career at a new club, a club he wanted to go to - I don't think there is anything wrong with him being angry that he can't get a game when the likes of Lonergan, Prismall and Monfries are getting plenty more chances after quiet games than he ever did.

I know Mark has been told he is close to selection, he hasn't been told there is anything wrong with his 'attitude' so unless the coaching staff are just telling him what he wants to hear as far as he knows there is nothing that he is doing wrong, quite simply he can't break into the team because they are playing well.

I tend to agree with Godzke though, I think there is something else going on because if he doesn't get a game this week and someone like Remiers comes in before him (who has also been quiet for Bendigo) then it is clearly a joke.

Willo is well liked by all his teammates - the young Indigenous boys look up to him and he has a close bond with some of the other boys like Gumby and Slattery - so he is clearly a positive addition to Essendon's football culture.

I should point out though I found his treatment by some Essendon supporters disgraceful at the few games I attended - being bronx cheered and booed - I have never seen that sort of behaviour by fans of the game and believe me at Hawthorn we have our fair share of 'duds', yet none have ever been abused to the extent I saw Willo copping it.

I'm dissapointed, as a Hawthorn supporter and a friend. I KNOW he is clearly in Essendon's best 22 - hell he is in Hawthorn's best 22 and Premiership team which bias aside is far more experienced and talented than Essendon's list at this point in time. So the fact I am watching him play out his career at Bendigo is shattering - he is better than that.

[Ben the Gooner]

I'm dissapointed, as a Hawthorn supporter and a friend. I KNOW he is clearly in Essendon's best 22 - hell he is in Hawthorn's best 22 and Premiership team which bias aside is far more experienced and talented than Essendon's list at this point in time. So the fact I am watching him play out his career at Bendigo is shattering - he is better than that.

No he's not, at this point in time.

Our best 22 at the moment has Hurley and Gumbleton as high CHFs and Hille and Ryder rotating through full forward, with some marking/crumbing smalls and genuine crumbing smalls in Zaharakis, Monfries, Lonergan, Davey and Jetta.

Williams is a completely different player to all of the above, so he can't just replace one of them seamlessly, and there's no reason whatsoever to change the structure.

Now that Hille and Monfries are injured, we'll have to change the structure, so he gets his chance.

Your comment about Reimers is ill-informed as well. Reimers can replace Lonergan without affecting our structure. Williams can't.

[Godzke]

Thanks for returning Chris. Some genuine insight there I believe. I reckon the "attitude" issue could well be doctored, but I'm struggling to think otherwise in relation to his ... mojo, so to speak. His spark. His burning desire. That look in someone's eyes when they want the ball more than anyone else, to tackle someone, to throw themselves at it, etc.

I understand he's a laconic type but maybe that's something he needs to change.

[chris2269]

Williams is a completely different player to all of the above, so he can't just replace one of them seamlessly, and there's no reason whatsoever to change the structure.

Your comment about Reimers is ill-informed as well. Reimers can replace Lonergan without affecting our structure. Williams can't.

With all due respect, if this is the case why did Knights tell Willo before the Richmond game that it was between him and Lonergan as to who comes in as they play the same position. So in saying that he was telling Willo that the player he was fighting for a position with was Lonergan - so why would that have changed now?

I also meant to mention in my post before that the reason Willo has been goalless in his last few Bendigo games is because he is playing up the ground and even in the backline at times - in the Gold Coast game they put him in the backline for a quarter and when they realised the game was in the balance they put him forward again and he kicked them back into the game.

As mentioned, Willo is not one to dominate VFL games but if you want him to show something - play him forward where he is meant to be - don't stick him in the midfield, on the wing or in the backline as you won't get the results you want off him.

As for not being in the best 22 - I still think he is Essendon's best forward and I tend to think the opposition teams agree with me, which would be the reason he has had the best defender in each of the games he has played with the likes of Scarlett, McPharlin and Glass.

[zacka123]

From the preseason training reports it was noted how Williams was a bit lazy and laid back in the way he trains. I've also noticed this in the handful of game his played in the seniors. The likes of Jetta and Davey impressing in the forward line it will be hard to see him getting a run for the rest of the year.

[Knight Ryders]

Some guys simply play better at the higher level - I would put Williams down as one of those. He's not an in and under type or a forward frontal "harrasser" but he does have footy smarts and he benefits from being on the end of some class finishing, which we obviously didn't provide in the early part of the season.

I think he is suffering atm from not having enough strings to his bow, but he could still be a good contributor to our best 22 if given the opportunity. I think he could play the lead up forward role that Monfries has been playing to aplomb if given the opportunity.

I would actually like to see us channel a fair bit of footy through him and Zaharakis around half forward to make their small defenders accountable. Best part about it is they are both beautiful users of the football and that could hurt the Cats.

[chris2269]

Thanks for returning Chris. Some genuine insight there I believe. I reckon the "attitude" issue could well be doctored, but I'm struggling to think otherwise in relation to his ... mojo, so to speak. His spark. His burning desire. That look in someone's eyes when they want the ball more than anyone else, to tackle someone, to throw themselves at it, etc.

I understand he's a laconic type but maybe that's something he needs to change.

Cheers mate.

You could very well be right, but I find it hard to think Willo will be able to change his general nature overnight - this is something that has been built in him since he was a child. It would be like asking Browny to suddenly not back into packs or for Richo to stop throwing tanties - these are things that inbuilt, they are not easily changed no matter how hard you try.

I wish Willo would speak out about his desire to play regular senior footy for Essendon but I doubt it is going to happen - he wouldn't want to draw attention to himself. Willo has that burning desire believe me, if you only knew how frustrated he is not to be out there when Essendon are playing the sort of footy he loves you would see that.

Willo has not been 'sooking' about being left out of the team, he has been positive around the club and a real voice for the young Bendigo boys. He didn't act like some other regular senior players have when they had to play in the 2's yet he gets negative press for whatever reason and I find that unfair.

[Ben the Gooner]

chris, one thing you should know is that The Australian, led by Patrick Smith, have an anti-Knights agenda, so Williams is a way to attack Knights for poor recruiting.

Regarding the Lonergan thing, it's as plain as anything that Lonergan and Williams are completely different players. Even if they're competing for the same spot in the 22, it doesn't mean they're going to be a part of identical structures. I wouldn't want Willo at the bottom of every pack, just as I wouldn't want Lonergan leading hard and taking shots from 55m. Each has their own strengths, and those are adapted to different gameplans.

[chris2269]

chris, one thing you should know is that The Australian, led by Patrick Smith, have an anti-Knights agenda, so Williams is a way to attack Knights for poor recruiting.

Regarding the Lonergan thing, it's as plain as anything that Lonergan and Williams are completely different players. Even if they're competing for the same spot in the 22, it doesn't mean they're going to be a part of identical structures. I wouldn't want Willo at the bottom of every pack, just as I wouldn't want Lonergan leading hard and taking shots from 55m. Each has their own strengths, and those are adapted to different gameplans.

Didn't know that about the Australian - thanks for that tip :thumbsu:

I agree with you 100% in that they are different players, but if Knights told Willo it is out of him and Lonergan every week as to who plays then I can only assume that he is comparing them each at their best - and for me Willo wins that out hands down.

I guess what I am really struggling to understand is why Essendon came after Mark - he didn't go after them. They knew what sort of player they were getting when he came across - whose place did they plan on him taking over from? Who is currently playing in the position where Willo was recruited to play? Why is this player suddenly a better option than Willo? Surely they would have seen some potential in whatever player it is who is in Willo's place so why go after Willo in the first place...why bring him to a club when you are not 100% sure he would fit in?

He would have been a certainty each week at Hawthorn - they had to target Hooper to come in and take his place and aside from injuries he has played every game this season - Willo would have done the same instead of sitting it out in Bendigo.

I guess I just find the whole thing hard to understand :confused:

[Ben the Gooner]

Didn't know that about the Australian - thanks for that tip :thumbsu:

I agree with you 100% in that they are different players, but if Knights told Willo it is out of him and Lonergan every week as to who plays then I can only assume that he is comparing them each at their best - and for me Willo wins that out hands down.

I guess what I am really struggling to understand is why Essendon came after Mark - he didn't go after them. They knew what sort of player they were getting when he came across - whose place did they plan on him taking over from? Who is currently playing in the position where Willo was recruited to play? Why is this player suddenly a better option than Willo? Surely they would have seen some potential in whatever player it is who is in Willo's place so why go after Willo in the first place...why bring him to a club when you are not 100% sure he would fit in?

He would have been a certainty each week at Hawthorn - they had to target Hooper to come in and take his place and aside from injuries he has played every game this season - Willo would have done the same instead of sitting it out in Bendigo.

I guess I just find the whole thing hard to understand :confused:

It may be out of Williams and Lonergan on the face of it, but in reality, it's out of having a leading full forward, a resting ruckman and two marking CHFs versus a resting ruckman, a high CHF, a FF/CHF and an extra crumber.

I think he's been desperately unlucky. He was clearly in their best 22 at the start of the season, even when Hurley was back in round 4, then he got injured for Rds 5 and 6, and in Rd 6, we changed a lot of things around (switched Ryder and Hille, brought in Atkinson etc.) and rebuilt the structure which couldn't work with Williams out. All of a sudden we had the most potent forwardline we've had since before Lloyd's hammy injury in 2006, and Williams is finding it hard to break into that and change it around.

No one on our list who's available can replace Hille as a forward/ruckman so the structure will have to change, on top of Williams being a likely replacement for Monfries anyway. So as long as this report and the rumours which I've been hearing for the last week or so are untrue (which you say they are), he'll be given a chance in his preferred position of full forward, and then it's up to him to prove that he's a part of a functional forwardline. If he can do that, then Knights will have to restructure again.

I agree with your comment above that he's our best forward, but our current forwardline is producing well above the sum of its parts.

[whats_at_stake]

Didn't know that about the Australian - thanks for that tip :thumbsu:

I agree with you 100% in that they are different players, but if Knights told Willo it is out of him and Lonergan every week as to who plays then I can only assume that he is comparing them each at their best - and for me Willo wins that out hands down.

I guess what I am really struggling to understand is why Essendon came after Mark - he didn't go after them. They knew what sort of player they were getting when he came across - whose place did they plan on him taking over from? Who is currently playing in the position where Willo was recruited to play? Why is this player suddenly a better option than Willo? Surely they would have seen some potential in whatever player it is who is in Willo's place so why go after Willo in the first place...why bring him to a club when you are not 100% sure he would fit in?

He would have been a certainty each week at Hawthorn - they had to target Hooper to come in and take his place and aside from injuries he has played every game this season - Willo would have done the same instead of sitting it out in Bendigo.

I guess I just find the whole thing hard to understand :confused:

I agree as I am unsure why we targeted Williams as well. Initially my first reason would be that Lloyd and Lucas have both retired and we had no experienced forwards. There were question marks on Neagle, Gumbleton and Hurley as all are young/injury prone/fitness issues.

I find it particularly strange as McPhee at that stage was going to play for Essendon as well so we had some degree of experience in the forward line.

Maybe the fact we got him cheap (draft pick wise) could be a reason although the cost and length of contract had a high cost associated with it.

I think he was unfairly dropped (as were a few others such as Neagle, Houli etc.) but now is just finding it hard to break back into a team whose forward line is functioning.

Where was he expected to fit in at the start of the year? In the forward line.

Who has come on that maybe the staff did not expect? I would say Jetta, the ruckman showing they can play forward and Zaharakis.

I personally think he also is probably in the Best22 overall but on the current form of Essendon he is not- we have been playing very well and with minimal injuries and other players to come in it is hard to find a spot for him.

He will come in at some point and then I guess it is up to him to take the opportunity and make the spot his own.

[Roughouse]

Pardon me I hope you dont mind me coming on to your board to offer my opinion on Mark Williams.

Willo has been and always will be an enigmatic footballer. By this I mean he floats in and out of the play, but when he does get hold of the footy he can be devastatingly effective. Just look at his performances for the Hawks in the 2008 finals series. I was really upset when Donga decided to leave.

Over the years at the Hawks his possession return was always low, eg 6 kicks, 4 handballs, four goals. It is generally acknowledged he is the best converter in the game- all you need to do is get it in his hands.

You just have to persist with him I'm afraid. He is not going to change his personality or the way he plays. To get the most from him you have to learn to take the good with the bad.

Having him stagnate at Bendigo is neither a good return on investment, or a means to reinvigorate his desire. Just play him.

[Clamps]

Extremely disappointing from Mark, considering he still has over 2 years left on his contract.

It would be good if he could turn his career around at Essendon, doesn't sound good at this stage.

[whats_at_stake]

On another note- does anyone know what we are doing with our salary cap? Given McPhee left you would hope Williams contract would be heavily frontloaded (as should most players) so we reach 100% of payment paid.

[Ben the Gooner]

On another note- does anyone know what we are doing with our salary cap? Given McPhee left you would hope Williams contract would be heavily frontloaded (as should most players) so we reach 100% of payment paid.

It'd be extremely poor management if we weren't heavily front-ended.

[Pweter]

So who do we believe, the Australian or the Hun?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/mark-williams-a-chance-to-return-for-bombers/story-e6frf9jf-1225877003056


ESSENDON may give out-of-form recruit Mark Williams another chance against Geelong on Saturday night.
Coach Matthew Knights listed Williams as one of several possible inclusions for the Bombers' clash against the premier on Saturday night.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/mark-williams-a-chance-to-return-for-bombers/story-e6frf9jf-1225877003056 (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/mark-williams-a-chance-to-return-for-bombers/story-e6frf9jf-1225877003056)

[WeAreEssendon]

Pick 90 to GC to free up some cap space to land a bigger and better fish - midfielder hopefully. Cut our losses and hopefully our strategic drafting of guys in the 20's and 30's makes up for the potentially good player in the teens we missed out on.

We just can't carry to many low possession type forwards.

Daniher, Carlisle, Still are all kids developing as forward targets who may come good.

[Slattery_20]

We just can't carry to many low possession type forwards.

This kinda shits me actually.

I'd be happy for Willo to get literally two touches a week, as long as they both went through.

[KaaN10]

Willo to kick 3 or 4 this week, bookmark it.

[WeAreEssendon]

This kinda shits me actually.

I'd be happy for Willo to get literally two touches a week, as long as they both went through.

Then he should just sit in the goal square and wait for the ball to pop in his arms and bang through a couple. I reckon he'll get at least 2 a week but his man will have 40 touches.

If your forwards aren't winning the ball or can't lock it in then it's coming back the other way quick smart. Davey, Jetta aren't huge ball winners. Williams in the mix doesn't help. Monfries is not a high possession player. Gumby at the moment is not there also and neither is a resting Ryder up forward.

Collectively they don't win enough ball.

Compare to Geelongs forwards, Collingwoods. They regularly get a lot of the ball.

[Slattery_20]

Possessions are over-rated. I'd rather 2 good touches than 10 useless ones.

Pressure is not. Goals can never be.

[jade_00]

Appreciate your comments mate, but some of what you have written here is not correct.

This.

I wasn't going to come back online, but on this I felt it fair I give the inside word.

That article is a complete load of rubbish. Anyone who knows Mark (and I would hope those at Essendon would by now) would know that it isn't true. How can you judge a player's character and output based on what they look like without even asking either the player themself or atleast the coaching staff and his teammates :confused:

Because EVERY player can be judged on their output without actually speaking to them. Nobody is judging his character, but his output has been shockingly bad.

Mark has and will always look laconic, it is just the way he is. If any of you ever got the chance to meet him you would be surprised at how quiet and relaxed he really is - he is no different in any circumstances. I specifically recall one of the commentators in the Geelong match where Willo kicked 6 on Scarlett - they couldn't get over how laid back he looked on the field when he was clearly dominating the match at the same time.

Mark is frustrated at not being in the seniors - particularly since they are finally coming into good form. Being frustrated isn't a bad thing either - it shows he actually cares - he WANTS to play in a succesful Essendon team. He chose to leave Hawthorn (he was still contracted and he would have 100% played regular senior footy for them this year) in the hope of reviatilising his career at a new club, a club he wanted to go to - I don't think there is anything wrong with him being angry that he can't get a game when the likes of Lonergan, Prismall and Monfries are getting plenty more chances after quiet games than he ever did.

He was woefully out of form when his injury got him left out of a side that he may very well have been dropped from anyway. Lonergan is debatable, but comparisons to Monfries and Prismall are just flat out wrong. Prismall was out of form, but unlike Williams when he went back to the VFL he made steps to get his way back in the side. Monfries, has been one of the top half dozen or so players for Essendon this year - so that comparison is way off.

I know Mark has been told he is close to selection, he hasn't been told there is anything wrong with his 'attitude' so unless the coaching staff are just telling him what he wants to hear as far as he knows there is nothing that he is doing wrong, quite simply he can't break into the team because they are playing well.

I tend to agree with Godzke though, I think there is something else going on because if he doesn't get a game this week and someone like Remiers comes in before him (who has also been quiet for Bendigo) then it is clearly a joke.

Reimers has offered more then Williams. He kicked two this week, and one the week before when coming back from injury. Clearly NOT a joke.

Willo is well liked by all his teammates - the young Indigenous boys look up to him and he has a close bond with some of the other boys like Gumby and Slattery - so he is clearly a positive addition to Essendon's football culture.

I should point out though I found his treatment by some Essendon supporters disgraceful at the few games I attended - being bronx cheered and booed - I have never seen that sort of behaviour by fans of the game and believe me at Hawthorn we have our fair share of 'duds', yet none have ever been abused to the extent I saw Willo copping it.

I'm dissapointed, as a Hawthorn supporter and a friend. I KNOW he is clearly in Essendon's best 22 - hell he is in Hawthorn's best 22 and Premiership team which bias aside is far more experienced and talented than Essendon's list at this point in time. So the fact I am watching him play out his career at Bendigo is shattering - he is better than that.

Now this one throw away comment is utter rubbish.

Essendon eliminated Hawthorn last year, both sit on 5-6 this year (Essendon has had the harder draw) AND belted them head to head. No justification can be made that Hawthorn's list is better then Essendons.

[Godzke]

"may".

If I were a journo who had zero inside knowledge then I'd say the same. Allows you to say almost anything without qualifying your argument or opinion. If you sign a bloke on a three year deal then he surely must come into contention this week almost regardless of his form, because you said it "may" happen. lol ;)


Anyway,
Definite OUTs: Hille (ruck/fwd), Monfries (fwd)
Definite INs: Stanton (mid), Fletcher (def)

As Hooker may not come back in this week, I suspect Hurley will be tested again down back (so that's one less target option up forward). Stanton will probably come in for Melksham. Reimers may come in for Monfries but I feel he'll be pushing further up the ground, so there's definitely room for Williams.

[Slattery_20]

I guess what I am really struggling to understand is why Essendon came after Mark - he didn't go after them. They knew what sort of player they were getting when he came across - whose place did they plan on him taking over from? Who is currently playing in the position where Willo was recruited to play? Why is this player suddenly a better option than Willo? Surely they would have seen some potential in whatever player it is who is in Willo's place so why go after Willo in the first place...why bring him to a club when you are not 100% sure he would fit in?
They may have been surprised about Zaka's form as a small forward.
He'd have been long odds to lead our goal kicking & shots on etc. May have thought they could mold him further up-field. May have just been pissed he didn't get a touch 3 out of 4 games. May have just rested him for a niggle and not wanted to change a winning side.

Agree on some points. I hardly expected him to command heaps of footy at Bendigo, which has normally been a pretty good place for full-forwards to catch a cold anyway.

Will be a fairly good pointer on this journo's cred if he comes straight into the side tbh.

[chris2269]

Appreciate your comments mate, but some of what you have written here is not correct.

Because EVERY player can be judged on their output without actually speaking to them. Nobody is judging his character, but his output has been shockingly bad.

Sorry a bit of a typo on my part his output yes judge away, I was more referring to the judging of his character from journalists and some Essendon supporters. People refer to him as a 'sook', arrogant, lazy etc

He was woefully out of form when his injury got him left out of a side that he may very well have been dropped from anyway. Lonergan is debatable, but comparisons to Monfries and Prismall are just flat out wrong. Prismall was out of form, but unlike Williams when he went back to the VFL he made steps to get his way back in the side. Monfries, has been one of the top half dozen or so players for Essendon this year - so that comparison is way off.

Willo was out of form 2 out of 4 games - the Geelong game he played on Scarlett and while wasn't influential on the scoreboard or stats sheet, he took Scarlett out of the game - something that went along way to Essendon nearly winning that game. The point I was making was the team was woefully out of form for those first few weeks and Willo alone can not be blamed for that.

Prismall was out of form - went back to VFL, sooked and cracked the sads about it and got back into the seniors - Willo hasn't once sooked about going back to the 2's and he clearly has more runs on the board to suggest he is a senior player.

Monfires has been good at time this year, but for the past few weeks he and Zaharakis, and at times Hurley and Gumby haven't really done that much in the forward line - it has been Jetta and Davey alongside Hille. I think they are fortunate that they are part of a winning side that their actual individual performances haven't been looked at as harshly as Willo's were when he was in a losing side.

Reimers has offered more then Williams. He kicked two this week, and one the week before when coming back from injury. Clearly NOT a joke.
Willo kicked 3 one week then 4 the next week after returning from injury and didn't get a go - so clearly not a joke. Also Remiers played forward more than Willo did who was further up the ground so had more opportuinity to kick goals.

Essendon eliminated Hawthorn last year, both sit on 5-6 this year (Essendon has had the harder draw) AND belted them head to head. No justification can be made that Hawthorn's list is better then Essendons.

No point arguing with someone who clearly dislikes Hawthorn, but if you compare the 2 lists - I'm not talking about current form just looking at the 2 lists on paper it is clear that Hawthorn is in front. Essendon's classiest players consist of; Watson, NLM, Hurley, Gumby, Fletcher (feel free to chuck your own in here) whereas Hawthorn has the likes of; Rioli, Buddy, Roughy, Hodge, Burgyone, Mitchell, Sewelly etc

That is a completely different argument though ;)

[yodellinhank]

"may".

If I were a journo who had zero inside knowledge then I'd say the same. Allows you to say almost anything without qualifying your argument or opinion. If you sign a bloke on a three year deal then he surely must come into contention this week almost regardless of his form, because you said it "may" happen. lol ;)


Anyway,
Definite OUTs: Hille (ruck/fwd), Monfries (fwd)
Definite INs: Stanton (mid), Fletcher (def)

As Hooker may not come back in this week, I suspect Hurley will be tested again down back (so that's one less target option up forward). Stanton will probably come in for Melksham. Reimers may come in for Monfries but I feel he'll be pushing further up the ground, so there's definitely room for Williams.

Is there going to be a match up that would suit Hurley down back though?

[Slattery_20]

No point arguing with someone who clearly dislikes Hawthorn, but if you compare the 2 lists - I'm not talking about current form just looking at the 2 lists on paper it is clear that Hawthorn is in front. Essendon's classiest players consist of; Watson, NLM, Hurley, Gumby, Fletcher (feel free to chuck your own in here) whereas Hawthorn has the likes of; Rioli, Buddy, Roughy, Hodge, Burgyone, Mitchell, Sewelly etc

That is a completely different argument though ;)
dude, as someone who thinks you add something worthwhile to this board, take my advice: don't even bother with that stuff on here.
Won't win you any friends, whether you're right or wrong.

[Slattery_20]

Is there going to be a match up that would suit Hurley down back though?
This should go to a changes thread, but:
In Fletch Stants Out Monfries Hille would seem to mean Hurley could go forward based on last week's setup.
Cats will probably run with a shorter forward line than the Swans ran with.

[Godzke]

Is there going to be a match up that would suit Hurley down back though?
If both Mooney and Pods play then I suspect...

Pods=Hurley
Mooney=Pears
Fletch 3rd up, not sure who he would match up on though.

[Ben the Gooner]

Mooney's out.

[yodellinhank]

Pick 90 to GC to free up some cap space to land a bigger and better fish - midfielder hopefully. Cut our losses and hopefully our strategic drafting of guys in the 20's and 30's makes up for the potentially good player in the teens we missed out on.

We just can't carry to many low possession type forwards.

Daniher, Carlisle, Still are all kids developing as forward targets who may come good.

This is taking a short term view of things.

What you have said (excepting the first paragraph) I agree with. But Williams was given a 3 year deal. I'm tipping that in 3 years time Gumbleton is expected to be a player who averages more than 10 touches a game. I'm even more confident that Michael Hurley will average more than 14 touches a game.

These are those players averages so far this season, and yes Mark Williams would add another low possession player to a forward line that can't really afford it ATM.

But as our younger group hopefully develops into a team that will contend, we may just have Williams up our sleeve to throw into the mix.

Its easy to look at young players such as Still, Carlisle etc. and see that they have been taken now for roles they will play in the future, why not apply the same theory to older guys as well?

[sexyhunk]

This.

I wasn't going to come back online, but on this I felt it fair I give the inside word.

That article is a complete load of rubbish. Anyone who knows Mark (and I would hope those at Essendon would by now) would know that it isn't true. How can you judge a player's character and output based on what they look like without even asking either the player themself or atleast the coaching staff and his teammates :confused:

Mark has and will always look laconic, it is just the way he is. If any of you ever got the chance to meet him you would be surprised at how quiet and relaxed he really is - he is no different in any circumstances. I specifically recall one of the commentators in the Geelong match where Willo kicked 6 on Scarlett - they couldn't get over how laid back he looked on the field when he was clearly dominating the match at the same time.

Mark is frustrated at not being in the seniors - particularly since they are finally coming into good form. Being frustrated isn't a bad thing either - it shows he actually cares - he WANTS to play in a succesful Essendon team. He chose to leave Hawthorn (he was still contracted and he would have 100% played regular senior footy for them this year) in the hope of reviatilising his career at a new club, a club he wanted to go to - I don't think there is anything wrong with him being angry that he can't get a game when the likes of Lonergan, Prismall and Monfries are getting plenty more chances after quiet games than he ever did.

I know Mark has been told he is close to selection, he hasn't been told there is anything wrong with his 'attitude' so unless the coaching staff are just telling him what he wants to hear as far as he knows there is nothing that he is doing wrong, quite simply he can't break into the team because they are playing well.

I tend to agree with Godzke though, I think there is something else going on because if he doesn't get a game this week and someone like Remiers comes in before him (who has also been quiet for Bendigo) then it is clearly a joke.

Willo is well liked by all his teammates - the young Indigenous boys look up to him and he has a close bond with some of the other boys like Gumby and Slattery - so he is clearly a positive addition to Essendon's football culture.

I should point out though I found his treatment by some Essendon supporters disgraceful at the few games I attended - being bronx cheered and booed - I have never seen that sort of behaviour by fans of the game and believe me at Hawthorn we have our fair share of 'duds', yet none have ever been abused to the extent I saw Willo copping it.

I'm dissapointed, as a Hawthorn supporter and a friend. I KNOW he is clearly in Essendon's best 22 - hell he is in Hawthorn's best 22 and Premiership team which bias aside is far more experienced and talented than Essendon's list at this point in time. So the fact I am watching him play out his career at Bendigo is shattering - he is better than that.

err dude, please dont make things up. I cant recall shot gun ever kicking more than 3 goals against us let alone 6. unless you refering to practice/nab cup games.

[jade_00]

Sorry a bit of a typo on my part his output yes judge away, I was more referring to the judging of his character from journalists and some Essendon supporters. People refer to him as a 'sook', arrogant, lazy etc

Unfortunately people can add words in like 'may', 'appears', 'looks like', and pass their own opinions off as fact. That isn't right.

I am of the belief however that Williams has not done anywhere near enough to earn a senior recall.

Willo was out of form 2 out of 4 games - the Geelong game he played on Scarlett and while wasn't influential on the scoreboard or stats sheet, he took Scarlett out of the game - something that went along way to Essendon nearly winning that game. The point I was making was the team was woefully out of form for those first few weeks and Willo alone can not be blamed for that.

I think he kicked five goals from four games - including four in one game. He also has six tackles from those four games, in the highest tackling side in the league. No doubt that Essendon in general was out of form and it can't be blamed on just him - but he was a contributing factor. And now that he's out of the side, as stated above I don't believe he has earnt a recall.

Prismall was out of form - went back to VFL, sooked and cracked the sads about it and got back into the seniors - Willo hasn't once sooked about going back to the 2's and he clearly has more runs on the board to suggest he is a senior player.

I agree with you in that Prismall didn't do a great deal to earn his recall. Luckily enough he got the chance and at the moment is playing quite well. Williams MAY get a recall to replace Monfries. Will he grab the chance if he gets it?

Monfires has been good at time this year, but for the past few weeks he and Zaharakis, and at times Hurley and Gumby haven't really done that much in the forward line - it has been Jetta and Davey alongside Hille. I think they are fortunate that they are part of a winning side that their actual individual performances haven't been looked at as harshly as Willo's were when he was in a losing side.

I'm not sure if you've been watching the Bombers. Monfries has been quiet the last couple, but still kicked a couple. That in addition to his cracking form earlier and no way he was being dropped. Zaharakis, Hurley and Gumby have all been solid, even great at times! Zaka and Gumby sit one and two on the goal kicking table at Essendon in a winning side, what more do you want? And Hurley has been pinch hitting back and forth and doing a damn good job of it. Williams is not getting a game ahead of any of the four and I'm surprised you would imply that he should.

Willo kicked 3 one week then 4 the next week after returning from injury and didn't get a go - so clearly not a joke. Also Remiers played forward more than Willo did who was further up the ground so had more opportuinity to kick goals.

Yep happy to stand corrected on that one. Williams did more in his two weeks back then Reimers has done in his. However the spot is available right now, not when Williams did alright - who gets it?

No point arguing with someone who clearly dislikes Hawthorn, but if you compare the 2 lists - I'm not talking about current form just looking at the 2 lists on paper it is clear that Hawthorn is in front. Essendon's classiest players consist of; Watson, NLM, Hurley, Gumby, Fletcher (feel free to chuck your own in here) whereas Hawthorn has the likes of; Rioli, Buddy, Roughy, Hodge, Burgyone, Mitchell, Sewelly etc

That is a completely different argument though ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to hide my disdain for Hawthorn, but you said it with such fact that I felt the need to correct it. Hawthorns list is NOT clearly superior.

Your rucks are bad bordering on deplorable, where we have one of the top two or three combos in the league. Your backline lacks any quality (save Hodge) and depth. We have Hooker, Pears and the Old Man, plus Slattery, Daniher as talls that can't get a game and the luxury of throwing Hurley back there as well as required. Your midfield ranks LAST in clearances (ours ranks second) and your contested possesions are poor, where our captain leads the league. About the only place you hold an ascendency is forward, and we at the very least have some excellent prospects - and a greater spread of goals.

I'm not trying to send this thread off in a tangent, but your statement, that Hawthorns list is better then Essendons is flat out incorrect.

[yodellinhank]

err dude, please dont make things up. I cant recall shot gun ever kicking more than 3 goals against us let alone 6. unless you refering to practice/nab cup games.

err dude, round 22 2006.

[bombermick]

This week is obviously Willo's best chance to get a game in the 1's. If he doesn't, I'm not sure how he can break into the side. If he replaces Monfries, despite being out of form he has to grab the chance. Or he'll be out of the side just as quick, and spend even longer at Bendigo.

[Kong]

Why does it matter if we're not paying 100% of the cap?

Wouldn't it be a smart move in case we decide to chase a big fish?

Off-field stuff isn't my forte, or really even an interest of mine, so I could be way off.

[lemon chicken]

There is no way that journalist has watched both Williams' games in past fortnight as he is stating. I can admit that i never saw Sunday's match but what he is saying about his playing attitude and not chasing and goal return is completely inaccurate from the previous weeks game that i watched. The 6 goal breeze blowing to one end in appaling conditions and he spent most of his time between half back and half fwd.

[Kong]

I fully expect Williams to replace Monfries, and kick 3-4 goals.

I don't think it's just a coincidence that Williams' only good game this year (as far as offensive output goes) was when Monfries was absent.

[Duckworth]

Cheers mate.

You could very well be right, but I find it hard to think Willo will be able to change his general nature overnight - this is something that has been built in him since he was a child. It would be like asking Browny to suddenly not back into packs or for Richo to stop throwing tanties - these are things that inbuilt, they are not easily changed no matter how hard you try.

I wish Willo would speak out about his desire to play regular senior footy for Essendon but I doubt it is going to happen - he wouldn't want to draw attention to himself. Willo has that burning desire believe me, if you only knew how frustrated he is not to be out there when Essendon are playing the sort of footy he loves you would see that.

Willo has not been 'sooking' about being left out of the team, he has been positive around the club and a real voice for the young Bendigo boys. He didn't act like some other regular senior players have when they had to play in the 2's yet he gets negative press for whatever reason and I find that unfair.

He should just have another kid, sure fixed Jetta and Ryder's games.

Quick, someone get him a Viagra!

[Giggidy Giggidy]

Willo kicked 3 one week then 4 the next week after returning from injury and didn't get a go - so clearly not a joke. Also Remiers played forward more than Willo did who was further up the ground so had more opportuinity to kick goals.

Willo kicked 2 the first week down at Kardinia (both in junk-time too IIRC); then 4 vs GC. Perhaps stiff not to get recalled after that performance (particularly given we lost to Port that week) but our forward line had still functioned well with multiple goalkickers, and Jetta got the nod instead, who has gone from strength to strength since.

After that Willo missed another two weeks (one due to a bye), and has had the two goalless matches since. Can't comment on the Casey match, but he looked far from convincing on Sunday from the times I was watching the game (when the seniors weren't on).

http://www.sportingpulse.com/team_info.cgi?player=Mark%20Williams&action=PSTATS&pID=188148693&client=0-118-0-102874-9815589

I agree with many here that he is probably a player that flourishes more in a higher standard of football, and could well do this week, but not sure he could justifiably be promoted ATM.

[FandangoDingo]

I guess what I am really struggling to understand is why Essendon came after Mark - he didn't go after them. They knew what sort of player they were getting when he came across - whose place did they plan on him taking over from? Who is currently playing in the position where Willo was recruited to play? Why is this player suddenly a better option than Willo? Surely they would have seen some potential in whatever player it is who is in Willo's place so why go after Willo in the first place...why bring him to a club when you are not 100% sure he would fit in?

Many of us are still struggling with the original decision too.

No point arguing with someone who clearly dislikes Hawthorn, but if you compare the 2 lists - I'm not talking about current form just looking at the 2 lists on paper it is clear that Hawthorn is in front. Essendon's classiest players consist of; Watson, NLM, Hurley, Gumby, Fletcher (feel free to chuck your own in here) whereas Hawthorn has the likes of; Rioli, Buddy, Roughy, Hodge, Burgyone, Mitchell, Sewelly etc

That is a completely different argument though ;)

I usually enjoy your insights here but the bolded bit, plus your selection/omissions of our "classiest" players indicate a terrible lack of knowledge of our list and/or disrespect for our club/players.

Our team doesn't have a player the quality of Thomas Murphy getting a game each and every week. Wouldn't get a job cleaning boots at Windy Hill.

Thomas Smurphy = [/argument]

:D

Why does it matter if we're not paying 100% of the cap?

Wouldn't it be a smart move in case we decide to chase a big fish?

Off-field stuff isn't my forte, or really even an interest of mine, so I could be way off.

If we're not paying close to 100% of the cap now, were denying ourselves room to move in future years when our young players mature (appreciate in value) and also if we chase a big fish next year or the year after.

We should be pushing as much of the players' future payments into this year (and next year), which will give us more room to move in 2011 and beyond. If we're not paying 100% of the cap, we're clearly not doing this.

eg. (Name & $$ purely for demo)
a. Hurley: 2010 = $400k, 2011 = $400k, 2012 = $400k, 2013 = $400k
b. Hurley: 2010 = $600k, 2011 = $600k, 2012 = $200k, 2013 = $200k

= $1.6M over 4 years in either instance but by paying Hurley (and/or whoever else) more in 2010-2011 (and therefore using 100% of the cap), we put the club in a stronger position for 2012 and 2013 where (in this example, option b), we have an extra $200k per year (in our cap).

If we wanted to chase a big fish next year, we could "back-end" the new contract (pay less in 2011 and more in 2012-13)

We only get this flexibility by spending 100% of the cap now.

[whats_at_stake]

Why does it matter if we're not paying 100% of the cap?

Wouldn't it be a smart move in case we decide to chase a big fish?

Off-field stuff isn't my forte, or really even an interest of mine, so I could be way off.

No it would not. If we were to sign a new player- their salary would count from next year. Hence say if we could still pay a player $100 000 this year and $100 000 less next year we should as it frees up salary cap room for the big fish you are talking about.

By only paying say 95% of the cap we are losing out on the 5% for the following year which could be used on other players. I will be very interested to see if we paid out close to 100% this year- would be very stupid not to do it.

EDIT: better explained in the answer above

[loopy_cam]

Sorry a bit of a typo on my part his output yes judge away, I was more referring to the judging of his character from journalists and some Essendon supporters. People refer to him as a 'sook', arrogant, lazy etc

You say this and then say this..

Prismall was out of form - went back to VFL, sooked and cracked the sads about it and got back into the seniors - Willo hasn't once sooked about going back to the 2's and he clearly has more runs on the board to suggest he is a senior player.

Unless you have some sort of relationship with Brent aswell it's more than a little hypocritical.

[Skeeta Olly]

This.

I wasn't going to come back online, but on this I felt it fair I give the inside word.

That article is a complete load of rubbish. Anyone who knows Mark (and I would hope those at Essendon would by now) would know that it isn't true. How can you judge a player's character and output based on what they look like without even asking either the player themself or atleast the coaching staff and his teammates :confused:

Mark has and will always look laconic, it is just the way he is. If any of you ever got the chance to meet him you would be surprised at how quiet and relaxed he really is - he is no different in any circumstances. I specifically recall one of the commentators in the Geelong match where Willo kicked 6 on Scarlett - they couldn't get over how laid back he looked on the field when he was clearly dominating the match at the same time.

Mark is frustrated at not being in the seniors - particularly since they are finally coming into good form. Being frustrated isn't a bad thing either - it shows he actually cares - he WANTS to play in a succesful Essendon team. He chose to leave Hawthorn (he was still contracted and he would have 100% played regular senior footy for them this year) in the hope of reviatilising his career at a new club, a club he wanted to go to - I don't think there is anything wrong with him being angry that he can't get a game when the likes of Lonergan, Prismall and Monfries are getting plenty more chances after quiet games than he ever did.

I know Mark has been told he is close to selection, he hasn't been told there is anything wrong with his 'attitude' so unless the coaching staff are just telling him what he wants to hear as far as he knows there is nothing that he is doing wrong, quite simply he can't break into the team because they are playing well.

I tend to agree with Godzke though, I think there is something else going on because if he doesn't get a game this week and someone like Remiers comes in before him (who has also been quiet for Bendigo) then it is clearly a joke.

Willo is well liked by all his teammates - the young Indigenous boys look up to him and he has a close bond with some of the other boys like Gumby and Slattery - so he is clearly a positive addition to Essendon's football culture.

I should point out though I found his treatment by some Essendon supporters disgraceful at the few games I attended - being bronx cheered and booed - I have never seen that sort of behaviour by fans of the game and believe me at Hawthorn we have our fair share of 'duds', yet none have ever been abused to the extent I saw Willo copping it.

I'm dissapointed, as a Hawthorn supporter and a friend. I KNOW he is clearly in Essendon's best 22 - hell he is in Hawthorn's best 22 and Premiership team which bias aside is far more experienced and talented than Essendon's list at this point in time. So the fact I am watching him play out his career at Bendigo is shattering - he is better than that.

With all due respect, if this is the case why did Knights tell Willo before the Richmond game that it was between him and Lonergan as to who comes in as they play the same position. So in saying that he was telling Willo that the player he was fighting for a position with was Lonergan - so why would that have changed now?

I also meant to mention in my post before that the reason Willo has been goalless in his last few Bendigo games is because he is playing up the ground and even in the backline at times - in the Gold Coast game they put him in the backline for a quarter and when they realised the game was in the balance they put him forward again and he kicked them back into the game.

As mentioned, Willo is not one to dominate VFL games but if you want him to show something - play him forward where he is meant to be - don't stick him in the midfield, on the wing or in the backline as you won't get the results you want off him.

As for not being in the best 22 - I still think he is Essendon's best forward and I tend to think the opposition teams agree with me, which would be the reason he has had the best defender in each of the games he has played with the likes of Scarlett, McPharlin and Glass.

Cheers mate.

You could very well be right, but I find it hard to think Willo will be able to change his general nature overnight - this is something that has been built in him since he was a child. It would be like asking Browny to suddenly not back into packs or for Richo to stop throwing tanties - these are things that inbuilt, they are not easily changed no matter how hard you try.

I wish Willo would speak out about his desire to play regular senior footy for Essendon but I doubt it is going to happen - he wouldn't want to draw attention to himself. Willo has that burning desire believe me, if you only knew how frustrated he is not to be out there when Essendon are playing the sort of footy he loves you would see that.

Willo has not been 'sooking' about being left out of the team, he has been positive around the club and a real voice for the young Bendigo boys. He didn't act like some other regular senior players have when they had to play in the 2's yet he gets negative press for whatever reason and I find that unfair.

Didn't know that about the Australian - thanks for that tip :thumbsu:

I agree with you 100% in that they are different players, but if Knights told Willo it is out of him and Lonergan every week as to who plays then I can only assume that he is comparing them each at their best - and for me Willo wins that out hands down.

I guess what I am really struggling to understand is why Essendon came after Mark - he didn't go after them. They knew what sort of player they were getting when he came across - whose place did they plan on him taking over from? Who is currently playing in the position where Willo was recruited to play? Why is this player suddenly a better option than Willo? Surely they would have seen some potential in whatever player it is who is in Willo's place so why go after Willo in the first place...why bring him to a club when you are not 100% sure he would fit in?

He would have been a certainty each week at Hawthorn - they had to target Hooper to come in and take his place and aside from injuries he has played every game this season - Willo would have done the same instead of sitting it out in Bendigo.

I guess I just find the whole thing hard to understand :confused:

You are an asset to this board, thank you for the insight...

...and yes it was necessary to quote this, because half the deluded people on here probably dismissed it.

[SirJimi05]

Chris - It is obvious why we traded for Mark Williams. He was brought in to add some experience to a forward line that had question marks over it. Knights conceded that there was a great unknown about how the forward line would function this season and whether or not the young guys would stand up.

Williams' early season form was rather poor where as the 'unknown' element of our forward line has been a revelation hence why Williams is no longer part of the best 22.

He will get a chance due to injuries and it is then up to him to force his way back into our best 22.

Pretty simple really.

[SirJimi05]

If your forwards aren't winning the ball or can't lock it in then it's coming back the other way quick smart. Davey, Jetta aren't huge ball winners. Williams in the mix doesn't help. Monfries is not a high possession player. Gumby at the moment is not there also and neither is a resting Ryder up forward.

Collectively they don't win enough ball.

Compare to Geelongs forwards, Collingwoods. They regularly get a lot of the ball.

Jetta is averaging 17.25 possesions per game this season.

Davis is averaging 12.8 disposals.

Essendons pure forwards get the ball just as much as Collingwoods.

I think you are overlloking the fact that many of their forwards (Didak, Thomas, Sidebottom, Beams etc) are heavily rotated through the midfield.

Davis has played as a full time forward this season and has averaged12 touches a game.

[Longy413]

The article is very unbalanced and actually contradicts what is on our own website.

Williams is in the mix this week and has been most weeks.
We can't expect any forward to kick big bags of goals, in recent weeks we've had the following forward options in any one game -

Williams, Neagle, Still, Laycock, Bellchambers, Quinn, Carlisle, Daniher and our rotating smalls. We just won't see anyone kick bags because they don't spend enough times close to goal.

I tend to agree with Godzke though, I think there is something else going on because if he doesn't get a game this week and someone like Remiers comes in before him (who has also been quiet for Bendigo) then it is clearly a joke.

Appreciate your posts on the subject but it's not a joke, because Reimers brings something to the table that Williams doesn't and that's run and receive.

With all due respect, if this is the case why did Knights tell Willo before the Richmond game that it was between him and Lonergan as to who comes in as they play the same position. So in saying that he was telling Willo that the player he was fighting for a position with was Lonergan - so why would that have changed now?

There is an element of mistruth in this, they may befighting for the same position in the 22 but they don't play the same role and the makeup of the rest of the forward line may very well determine who gets picked any given week.

Lonergan plays as an extra midfielder, he pushes up the ground to take space in the midfield zone. He follows the ball back into our forward line to become a target by moving into space with the ball.

Williams plays at the ball, he runs at the ball.

If it was a like for like, Williams is more likely to take the spot of Monfries and potentially push Gumby and/or Zaka higher.

If Lonergan was to go out of the side, Reimers is more likely to perform that role.

I don't think Lonergan is keeping Williams out, it's probably more to do with Melksham filling a role in the midfield and keeping Zaka in the forward line.

But you're right, his attitude is what you'd expect it to be and his leadership is fantastic. We're building a new forward line and it is going to take some time to really take shape.

[The Great Barry Besanko]

Gumby, Hurley, Monfries, Hille/Ryder , the forward line has worked recent weeks and just think it's more for balance why Williams was out.
This week Hurley to the backline but at SCG don't really need CHF.
I know Zaha has kicked a few goals but I think he's missed a few marks on the lead and I don't think it's working that great.

I'd give Williams a go this week.

[Blowfly]

Now The Age is jumping in with their take

Knights throws down gauntlet
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-throws-down-gauntlet-20100608-xtnh.html

While Knights told a press conference that Willliams would be one of five or six players considered, the coach later admitted he needed to better recover form and fitness before he could return.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/knights-throws-down-gauntlet-20100608-xtnh.html

[Godzke]

From The Age article"I don't think [he is sulking]. Mark can look laconic at times and that has always been his way - his gait and the way he moves around the field, even when he is in his best form he looks laconic, so I don't think we should read too much in to that," Knights said.

Well ... ok, so I assume attitude is definitely not an issue. He just needs to find his spark. The fitness issue frustrates me though. He should be in PEAK condition.

[Slattery_20]

err dude, please dont make things up. I cant recall shot gun ever kicking more than 3 goals against us let alone 6. unless you refering to practice/nab cup games.
Rd 22 2006. 8.
No idea if they were matched up or not tho.

[Lance Uppercut]

I reckon he's probably coming back in this weekend, & the club are more than happy for the media to load up the Shotgun

[DapperDon]

Same here Lance, it looks like the club want the media to give him a kick and hopefully get some fire in his belly. Would be very handy if he came out and kicked a bag on Saturday, and with no Scarlett he has a chance.

[table tennis]

I think with Monfries out, he is worth throwing in this week, even if his form doesn't deserve a game. Fact is we traded for him and gave him a 3 year contract, we might as well try and get some result from it.

No Scarlett, another avenue of stretching Geelongs defence, he will make a Enright, or Milburn more accountable than they otherwise would be.

However, his defensive pressure has to improve. He has a reasonable size body, he is quick enough, he needs to address that issue of his game. Collectively our forwards have been excellent the last couple of weeks with defensive pressure. He needs to tow the line.

Williams is a victim of the evolution of the game too. He was prodomently a lead up forward. But with zones these days, its increasingly hard to find the time and space to lead, especially when your sharing the forward line with several players.

The form and fitness of Gumbleton has not helped his cause either, especially with a lack of results for what ever reason at Bendigo.

Chris, your reference to Prismall sooking when he went back to Bendigo is completley and utterly off the mark.

[Kong]

Yep, he'll play, surely.

I still don't mind the trade. We ended up landing Colyer and Long out of it (from memory), and this guy still has a lot to offer.

Quite simply he isn't in the side at present because our forward line hasn't needed him.

It will this weekend, and if he kicks 3+, he'll keep his spot.

I think he'll make a few people eat their words.

[Godzke]

I think we got pick #24 (Carlisle) didn't we?

[Slattery_20]

It's a bit hard to work out as one transaction, because I think one of the picks was orignally Port's which Hawthorn ended up with

Net effect was Nash, Lovett, 42 and some pick in the 50s for Williams, 24 and 33.

[Kong]

When considering Nash was going to be delisted anyway and Lovett will never play again; Williams, Carlisle (#24) and Long (#33) is pretty good for pick #42 and #50 something.

[Darealrath]

I reckon he's probably coming back in this weekend, & the club are more than happy for the media to load up the Shotgun

I agree with the second half of what you're saying but if he were to play this weekend that would be quite out of character for Knights, who has created a persona of being quite honest when it comes to selection.

[rhysman]

Was a **** up from day 1. Quite simply there was never a spot for him our structure. If he isnt an automatic selection when Monfries is injured then he will never get a game! To top it off he is obviously not fit enough or motivated enough to deserve a game. To make matters worse, we had the greatest goal kicker our club has ever had virtually pleading for a spot deep forward line and we virtually pushed him out the door. FFS!! Makes Sheedy recruiting Allan, Camporeale, Alvey, Zantuck and Cole look like masterstrokes.

[Kong]

lol.

[DapperDon]

To make matters worse, we had the greatest goal kicker our club has ever had virtually pleading for a spot deep forward line and we virtually pushed him out the door.

facepalm.jpg

[U Got Reimered]

No it would not. If we were to sign a new player- their salary would count from next year. Hence say if we could still pay a player $100 000 this year and $100 000 less next year we should as it frees up salary cap room for the big fish you are talking about.

By only paying say 95% of the cap we are losing out on the 5% for the following year which could be used on other players. I will be very interested to see if we paid out close to 100% this year- would be very stupid not to do it.

EDIT: better explained in the answer above

The amount of the salary cap paid out each year and the way players contracts are structured needs to be carefully planned. It's not as easy as front loading everyone's contract this year so we can afford more next year, because if this is the approach taken, what happens when everyone comes out of contract and can demand more? It will be the early 2000s all over again. I am sure they know what they are doing, and the future should be viewed to be 4-5 years down the track, not just next year and the year after.

Back on topic. Any player who kicks 4 goals against Carlton deserves a spot in the team regardless of his form against every other team and deserves to be made a life member of our club!!!

[whats_at_stake]

The amount of the salary cap paid out each year and the way players contracts are structured needs to be carefully planned. It's not as easy as front loading everyone's contract this year so we can afford more next year, because if this is the approach taken, what happens when everyone comes out of contract and can demand more? It will be the early 2000s all over again. I am sure they know what they are doing, and the future should be viewed to be 4-5 years down the track, not just next year and the year after.

Back on topic. Any player who kicks 4 goals against Carlton deserves a spot in the team regardless of his form against every other team and deserves to be made a life member of our club!!!

Regardless of front ending or back ending- if the club does not pay at least 99% of the salary cap then it is a very stupid decision. I am pretty sure they will though.